All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team

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All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#1 » by 70sFan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:42 pm

Here is the link to the project thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780

Pick the first team from 1955/56 to 1959/60 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.


Rules:

1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).

2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.

3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.

4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.

If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.

Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:I'm in.

Doctor MJ wrote:Sounds fun. I'm in.

Dutchball97 wrote:I'm in.

PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm in lol. :D

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:yes

LA Bird wrote:...

Orin wrote:I would love to participate

ardee wrote:Sure

Heej wrote:Interesting I'm in

clearlynotjesse wrote:I wanna play

E-Balla wrote:I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I'm in.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:...

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can participate, but not reliably
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:58 pm

Looking forward to this one, hoping to learn something more about players I know the least about.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#3 » by 70sFan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:16 pm

My choices:

G: 1955/56 Bob Cousy
G: 1958/59 Larry Costello
F: 1955/56 Paul Arizin
F: 1959/60 Bob Pettit
C: 1959/60 Bill Russell


Bob Cousy - probably the best guard season available and arguably Bob's overall peak. He was still quite efficient (around league average at high volume) and his passing ability was excellent. He got massively worse after 1958 in my opinion, but this season is an excellent choice. People know more about Cousy than most players from that era, so I won't talk too much about him here.

Larry Costello - I have to admit that this era is weak for guard position, mainly because how coaches used guards on offense in the 1950s. Still, it's not without talent and Costello had fantastic season in 1959. He posted nice statline of 16/5/5 on +4.6 rTS% and he played even better in playoffs with excellent 18/6/6 +8.1 rTS%. If I had to choose one guard season better than 1956 Cousy, it would be this Costello performance.

I also had in mind Richie Guerin, Bill Sharman, Carl Braun, Gene Shue and Tom Gola. There will be many tough decisions in next rounds.

Paul Arizin - this is fairly easy choice, Arizin had one of the finest offensive seasons of this era including one of the best postseason runs ever. I'd call Arizin the best scorer of this era with Pettit being the only other candidate: 24 ppg on +6.9 rTS% in RS and 29 ppg on +7.3 rTS% in playoffs finished by winning the title. 1956 Warriors had strong team, so it's not like he carried them but his best teammate (Neil Johnston) did underperform, so Arizin had to up his scoring numbers.

Paul Arizin was known for his signature high release midrange jumpshot, but he also had deep range and could slash to the basket well. He was known for his jumping ability and overall athleticism, which helped him being very effective offensive player despite small statue (only 6'4 without the shoes).



Bob Pettit - another easy choice, Pettit is one of the best players ever at his position. Excellent rebounder, strong scorer and good shooter. He wasn't ball-dominant and he thrived with other stars like Hagan or Lovellette.

Bill Russell - the easiest choice, Russell already reached his prime in 1959 and he had probably his best scoring season in 1960 while already being GOAT defender.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:17 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Looking forward to this one, hoping to learn something more about players I know the least about.

Would you like to join to the project?
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#5 » by prolific passer » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:42 pm

C: 57-58 Bill Russell. First full season which led to his first mvp season.
F: 58-59 Bob Pettit. Last mvp season and a winning record vs Russell in the regular season.
F: 58-59 Paul Arizin. Highest scoring season of his career.
G: 57-58 Bill Sharman. Same as Arizin with his career scoring season.
G: 56-57 Bob Cousy. Mvp and first championship season.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#6 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:19 pm

F Pettit 59. Better scoring in season but could have taken 58
F Arizin 56 playoff stats better but could have taken 3 different years
C Russell 60 got better each of the 4
G Cousy. 57 best shooting of his, plus team did well before Russell joined
G Sharman 59 slightly better playoff shooting was final choice. Excellent defender, always praised for it. Free throw shooting shows how good a shooter he was. Major League Baseball prospect who was called up but didn’t play in Majors. Shows he was good athlete and someone who would have been good in any era.

The choices were fairly easy; picking the year was the hard part on this group.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#7 » by Odinn21 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:22 pm

C: 1959-60 Bill Russell
Obvious choice.

F: 1956-57 Bob Pettit
Obvious choice.

F: 1959-60 Elgin Baylor
I felt like this was between '59 Hagan, '56 Arizin and '58 Schayes for me but remembered that 1959-60 was a strong season from sophomore Baylor already.

G: 1957-58 Bill Sharman
Well, I can change it because it feels a bit too hard. The names I have in mind;
1958 Sharman, 1959 Costello, 1959 Ramsey (average r. season but massive playoffs). TBH I'd prefer a passable F at this 2nd G spot. Let's put one of Hagan or Arizin at G, no? :D

G: 1956-57 Bob Cousy
Obvious choice.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:01 pm

Votes so far:

Guards

Bob Cousy 4
Bill Sharman 3
Larry Costello 1

Forwards

Bob Pettit 4
Paul Arizin 3
Elgin Baylor 1

Centers

Bill Russell 4
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#9 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:44 pm

I try to limit it to one project at a time; but I am enjoying reading it.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#10 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:37 pm

G: 1960 Larry Costello - I think he was ahead of his time in terms of IQ and effectiveness. He seems more resilient than Cousy. 1960 doesn't have a great p ost season stats as 1959 but there is a small sample size. He consistently had the 2nd best offense with Syracuse, he's too much of a constant to ignore.

G: 1959 Richie Guerin - This is between Guerin and Sharman who both had great reputations as shooters and defenders. I'll edge it to Richie because his passing seems more natural and special than Sharman's. The Knicks were pretty much the top offense in the league during this time as well (pretty much competing with Larry's Nationals). I feel like Bob Cousy's play style has more questions about it, I just understand Richie/Bill's game more.

F: 1959 Bob Pettit - Hard to pick a year for Bob; I went with his best scoring one.

F: 1960 Elgin Baylor - Coming into this I figured Arizin was a shoe in, but thinking about it - I'm not sure if he peaked higher than 2nd year Baylor. I came away more impressed with pre injury Baylor after reading about him in a few books. His scoring was considered some next generation stuff, and it certainly showed in a 9 game playoff run with crazy efficiency and volume. Baylor was well rounded as well. The feeling at the time was Baylor was taking the league by storm. I think he just seems more impressive even though Arizin is probably my favorite 50s player (after Russell).

C: 1960 Bill Russell
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#11 » by Odinn21 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:52 pm

I'm surprised to see Baylor getting so little love. I don't think it is even a question between 1960 Baylor and any other F not named Pettit.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#12 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am

Cousy 1st team 5 times
Sharman 1st team 4 times, 2nd team once
Gene Shue 1st team once (1960)
Slater Martin 2nd team 4 times
Richie Guerin 2nd team twice
Tom Gola 2nd team once
Dick Garmaker 2nd team once
Jack George 2nd team once

I looked at Assist leaders, scoring leaders and player efficiency leaders
Garmaker came in about 2oth on all 3 lists one year.
Gola and George get on 2 lists

Dick McGuire does not score enough.
Guy Rodgers does not score efficiently enough but 38% isn't so bad in this era.
Costello despite not having an All NBA selection is in the hunt a spot on one of our 3 teams both for 1969'and 1970

I think all the 6 guards we choose be mentioned above. I don't think a real contender slipped past me.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:28 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I think all the 6 guards we choose be mentioned above. I don't think a real contender slipped past me.


1958 Carl Braun

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#14 » by 70sFan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:35 am

Odinn21 wrote:I'm surprised to see Baylor getting so little love. I don't think it is even a question between 1960 Baylor and any other F not named Pettit.

I think that Arizin certainly has a case against Baylor.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#15 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:48 pm

Guard: Bill Sharman, 1957/58 - The only difficult part of this choice is the year. He had a better regular season in 57 and a better play-offs in 59 but 58 is a best of both world situation. The guard pool is very weak here but Sharman is the one guy I'm confident deserves to be first team here.

Guard: Bob Cousy, 1956/57 - Went into this round thinking I'd definitely vote for Cousy but I came very close to voting for Tom Gola instead. Cousy just doesn't have that one season where everything clicked together but his 57 season is still barely good enough in my eyes to sneak into the first team.

Forward: Bob Pettit, 1956/57 - Another difficult choice in terms of what year but I'm confident on him being the best forward of this era.

Forward: Paul Arizin, 1955/56 - This one was the hardest choice for the first team. Hagan, Yardley and Schayes have strong seasons but this really comes down to Arizin vs Baylor. Their level of play in the regular season and play-offs were both very similar but the deciding factor is that Arizin was more impressive comparatively to other players in his season than Baylor was in his.

Center: Bill Russell, 1959/60 - Wilt is also a strong option of course but I already voted for Russell over Wilt in the 61-65 era but I don't think it's as close here as it was there.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#16 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:57 am

League fg% in 1960 is 41% with 115 points per game
League fg% in 1956 is 39% with 99 points a game.
If you can get equal results in the earlier time period, take the earlier time period.

My votes
G: 1955/56 Bob Cousy
G: 1957/58 Bill Sharman
F: 1955/56 Paul Arizin
F: 1959/60 Elgin Baylor
C: 1959/60 Bill Russell


1956 Bob Cousy is getting 6.8 rebounds a game. He has 8.9 assists a game in a league that does not like giving out assists. He scores 26 points a game at FG 50% in his 3 game playoffs.

Richie Guerin was going to need a good playoff series, it did not happen.
Gene Shue, Maybe. After looking at Sharman I decided not to take Sharman. After looking at everybody else I came back to Sharman but without any commitment. His playoffs were decent in 1958

Baylor did out play Pettit and Hagan in their 1960 playoffs.
Arizin doesn't rebound like Baylor and Pettit but Arizin carried the scoring load efficiently for the the 1956 Champion Warriors when his teammates got less efficient in the playoffs
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA First Team 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:44 am

Official 1956-60 All-NBA First Team

G: 1956/57 Bob Cousy
G: 1957/58 Bill Sharman
F: 1955/56 Paul Arizin
F: 1958/59 Bob Pettit
C: 1959/60 Bill Russell


Votes:

Guards

Bob Cousy 6
Bill Sharman 5
Larry Costello 2
Richie Guerin 1

Forwards

Bob Pettit 6
Paul Arizin 5
Elgin Baylor 3

Centers

Bill Russell 7

I'm a bit disappointed that Cousy and Sharman went so early without many alternatives. They are not terrible choices of course, so I won't complain.

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