RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 (Isiah Thomas)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 (Isiah Thomas) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:54 pm

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. ????

Will look to conclude around 2pm EST on Thursday.

I expect Isiah Thomas to the front-runner, but I have no idea who is going to emerge as a potential competitor, so I cannot advise as to who to specify a preference for. Please just peek in on the thread once in awhile, and pay attention to any notifications.

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:54 pm

43. Isiah Thomas
I think Zeke gets too much stick with modern evaluation techniques. It's true that Thomas' on court production was getting lower while the team was getting better. But it's hard to say there's a direct correlation. It's just that, it can be interpreted something like Garnett scoring 18.8 ppg in 2008 for the Boston team. Lower than his usual prime average and already on the decline. But it still mattered greatly. Also he was one of the best playoff performers around.
When he wasn't fully healthy in 1990-91 season, the Pistons went 31-17 (+3.8 mov) with him and 19-15 without him. That's pretty significant.

44. Russell Westbrook
As I kept saying, I was gravitating towards Westbrook in recent days, I think it's time to include him.
This is what I wrote about him in the #34 thread when I thought he should start getting some traction.
Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:BTW, I know that he's not the most highly regarded player in here but I think Russell Westbrook should be getting some mentions at this point. I find it interesting that if 2016-17 season never happened, his career and him as a player would be regarded better.
I mean he was the best player on 2015-16 Thunder, he was the best player on the team that went 3-1 up against the 73W team. Sure, blowing such a lead is still an issue but;
Durant was slightly better on offense than Westbrook in regular season. Their impact in their given roles were almost tied up.
http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-1861361865
And Westbrook was the better player in the playoffs.

Another thing is;
I always look at impact numbers with on court production and roles in mind. Playing more minutes, or carrying bigger scoring load, etc, these things matter so much. Westbrook was still a positive impact player in 2016-17 season with that massive on court production.
I just don't see the point of penalizing the player for having a sh.t team around him.
Could Westbrook take less shots / handle the ball less on 2017 Thunder? Sure.
Would that be beneficial to the team and would they do better? Very doubtful.


45. Ray Allen
Some names I'm considering right now;
Paul Pierce, Robert Parish, Pau Gasol, Ray Allen, Gary Payton, Adrian Dantley, Elvin Hayes, Dikembe Mutombo, Dwight Howard.

Right now, I guess I'm closer to Ray Allen than anybody on there but I'm open to suggestions / discussions.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#3 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:01 pm

1st vote: Pau Gasol
Another decent star with outstanding longevity, Pau entered the league at age 21 and was immediately probably a top 30 player in the league (basically borderline All-Star level player): averaged 17.6/8.9/2.7 @ +4.6% rTS and 2.1 bpg, though admittedly for a terrible team, and kinda turnover-prone as a rookie. tbf, it wasn't much of a cast around him: Shane Battier is a very underrated player (though perhaps cast too high when the 2nd [or arguably 1st??] best player on a team); after that it was Jason Williams and Stromile Swift as 3rd and 4th, and mostly trash behind that.
So overall....pretty good coming out party for the rookie.

In '06 he averaged 20.4/8.9/4.6 @ +1.9% rTS with 1.9 bpg for a team that won 49 games and had the 5th-rated +3.74 SRS (this was with Shane Battier, Mike Miller, an OLD Eddie Jones, and a bunch of spare parts, btw). They were swept in the first round, though due to a brutal WC [and even more brutal SW division that contained the defending champs and the eventual WC champ] and the stupid playoff structure of the time they drew the 60-win Mavericks team (you know, the one that would win the conference). Pau did struggle a bit in the series.

If you somehow blend these two seasons, you get an idea of what "average" P.Gasol was in Memphis.

But in '08 Kobe was barking at the Lakers to either make them a contender or he'd walk, so they bring in Pau......and he almost immediately meshes as the perfect Dick Grayson to Kobe's Bruce Wayne, making the Lakers an instant contender.
Pau would have likely his three BEST seasons as a Laker [from '09-'11], collectively averaging 18.7/10.3/3.4 on approximately +5(ish)% rTS, good turnover economy, and decent defense during those years. They'd win two titles, with Pau playing pretty good in both runs ('10 in particular: 19.6 ppg @ +5.6% rTS, 11.1 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.1 bpg, and only 1.9 topg.....that's a really nice line).

He'd continue to have relevant seasons all the way out to his 17th season (age 37), ultimately sitting 30th in NBA/ABA history in career rs WS (and currently tied for 40th all-time [w/ Clyde Drexler] in ps WS). He's actually ahead of Chauncey Billups in rs WS [and WS love Chauncey], though is behind Chauncey in ps WS.

He lacks All-NBA accolades more because his prime overlaps that of Tim Duncan [#5 on this list], Kevin Garnett [#11 on this list], and Dirk Nowitzki [#15 on this list]---as well as much of Lebron James [#1 on this list] and other sporadically excellent forwards such as Paul Pierce, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, and Chris Bosh----than from him lacking All-NBA chops.
I've little doubt that if his competition was John Havlicek, Billy Cunningham, Truck Robinson, Gus Johnson, Bob Love, and Elvin Hayes......Pau would have a few more than he does [likely including at least one 1st Team nod].

At any rate, I think he at least deserves serious consideration at this stage.


2nd vote: Paul Pierce
Will try to write more later, honestly.
In short, he's a nice two-way star who was capable of carrying some awful casts up to mediocrity, and transitioned nicely into a role as the 2nd-best on a title-winner. Nice longevity overall as well.


3rd vote: Russell Westbrook
I've been critical of him at times, and I still think his '17 MVP was undeserved. But he's accrued a pretty impressive 12-year career at this point, and certainly has to be in the running at this point. As I look at his resume closely, I may even opt to move him up in my rotation; we'll see....
(Though I'm waffling again and thinking of switching back to Gary Payton, who I originally had ahead. :-? ......open to suggestion)



Wouldn't be particularly disappointed with Isiah [presumed favorite for the spot] getting in here, though I'd personally wait just a little longer. Also on my immediate radar are Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, and Ray Allen. Chauncey Billups in the vicinity too.
After them come players like Iverson, Manu, Lanier, Hayes. AD might slip in somewhere around that range for me. Then I might be willing to consider Cousy [I mention since he's had support recently].
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#4 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:09 pm

43. Isiah Thomas
-At this point I think the simple fact that he was the best player on a very near dynasty has to be recognized which is a claim very few other players can make. I'm also fairly high on his ability to run a team and his intangibles as a leader. His intensity on the court I think was one of the defining traits of those Pistons teams along with Daly's personality which can't be overlooked either. There's a good reason that Daly was chosen to be the hc of the dream team and its imo because he was widely seen as the best hc in the league at the time and a guy who wouldn't put up with bs from anybody.
-I also want to remention some things I said in earlier thread about Isiah's often perceived 'decline' being imo in large part due to the Pistons going from near the top of the league in pace to the very bottom in the period from 84-88 and Dumars taking over a lot of ballhandling duties on the team. So I think Isiah became overlooked also due to other pgs such as Stockton, Price and KJ also coming on the scene in the 88-90 period who had flashier numbers.
-2x champ
-1x fmvp while averaging 27.6/5.2/7.0 on 63% ts
-led Pistons to 5 straight ecf from 87-91 and 3 straight finals(led them in vorp every year from 83-90, led all 3 finals teams in playoff vorp)
-5x all nba(3x 1st team)
-7x top 15 in mvp voting(4x top 10, high of 5th)
-career playoff bpm of 6.0, 18th all time ahead of guys like Dirk and Duncan
-great playmaker, set league record for assists in 85
-reasonably long prime of 8 years imo with a few other solid seasons
-51st all time in vorp
-5x top 10 in steals per game

44. Chauncey Billups
-very good all around guard also known for being clutch shooter in playoffs
-strong floor general
-led Pistons teams which made 5 straight ecf in rs win shares every year and in vorp 3x
-led 04 title Pistons in rs/ps wins shares and also won fmvp
-led league in ps win shares in 05 while losing finals in 7 games
-joins the Nuggets in 09 and they go from being swept in the first round the year prior to losing in 6 games in the wcf to the Lakers the following year
-respectably long prime of 9 years imo which isn't that short
-3x all nba(1x 2nd, 2x 3rd)
-2x all defensive 2nd team
-4x top 15 in mvp voting(high of 5th)
-43rd in career vorp
-30th in career playoff vorp
-efficient scorer with career ts+ of 109(4.5% above league average)

45. Paul Pierce
-Very strong combo of size, respectable athleticism, all around scoring/playmaking skills, 3 pt shooting, defense, playoff production and prime longevity. Not that many players who can check as many boxes as Pierce could(both as a player and resume wise) which also translated into him being a very good floor raiser imo while showing he could take a lesser role on teams that contended for and won titles which is why I have him above a lot of the other high scoring wings. He also got to the line a lot which helped to make him a very efficient scorer.
-1x nba champ/final mvp
-4x all nba(1x 2nd team, 3x 3rd team)
-5x top 15 in mvp voting(high of 7th)
-10x all star
-25th all time in win shares
-41st in career bpm while also being 22nd in career vorp
-Capable of carrying an offense as a scorer. 5 seasons averaging over 25ppg
-19th all time in points scored while also having a career ts+ of 107(3.5% above league average) and career ts add of 1772
-very good player for a very long time. Recording 13 seasons with a vorp of 3.0 or higher and 7 seasons above 4.5.

Next guys I am strongly considering are: Pau, Lanier, Allen, Payton, Arizin and Sam Jones probably in that order. Reed and a few others will lesser longevity I am also close to voting for. Reed may even jump up after I think about it some more. Right now leaning Lanier over Reed mainly because he had 8 strong prime years to Reed's 5 but also because he has a large ast% advantage over him and even as good as Reed was in the playoffs Lanier also has a significantly higher career ws/48 than Reed. So its hard to say that Lanier wasn't also a very good playoff performer. Though Reed was a top notch defensive player. Rebounding is roughly equal. Lanier also had some very high mvp finishes so its not like he wasn't thought of as a top 5 player at his peak. If anyone has any other input between these two I'd be willing to listen.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#5 » by Hal14 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:25 pm

Hal14 wrote:1. Isiah Thomas
2. Kevin McHale
3. Willis Reed

One thing that's interesting about Isiah is that during the 87-88 through 90-91 seasons (the years Isiah had the most team success) he somehow got significantly less votes in both MVP voting and all NBA teams, despite the fact that his stats across the board were just as good - if anything, maybe a slight dip but not enough to justify such a significant drop in MVP and all NBA votes - especially considering he was now having much greater team success - and considering he continued making the all star team every year. And typically when a guy has more team success, they get more MVP/all NBA votes..not less.

Below you'll find the year, followed by Isiah's finish in MVP voting, followed by which all NBA team he made

*Also keep in mind there was no all NBA 3rd team in 81-82

82 - 17th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
83 - 16th in MVP - all NBA 2nd team
84 - 5th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
85 - 9th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
86 - 9th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
87 - 8th in MVP - all NBA 2nd team
88 - 12th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
89 - 17th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
90 - 13th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
91 - 13th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team

My theory as to why he all of a sudden had such a big dip in MVP/all NBA votes despite much greater team success is because people truly started to hate the Pistons beginning with the 87 ECF finals, which was a grueling series between the Celtics and Pistons. In 87, the Celtics were a blue collar team that was very well liked, their players got lots of votes for awards, evidenced by Bird winning 3 straight MVPs in 84-86..and in 87, both Bird and McHale finished top 4 in MVP voting.

Then in the 87 ECF, this happened:



Following the 87 ECF, the Pistons became the most hated team in the league. Not only for brawling with the Celtics in the ECF, but also because of how physical and borderline dirty they played overall. The next year in 87-88 - the Pistons were officially established as a hated team. All Pistons players saw a big dip in MVP/all NBA votes - especially Isiah who was considered the ring leader of the Pistons. The other guy on the Pistons besides Isiah who was seen as the poster boy for the Bad Boys image was Laimbeer. If you look at Laimbeer and his all NBA selections and all star appearances before the 87-88. season and after, you'll notice the same discrepancy.

Isiah was top 10 in MVP voting 4 years in a row from 83-84 through 86-87. He made 1st or 2nd team all NBA five years in a row from 82-83 through 86-7. Then somehow magically, the votes he received plummeted from 87-8 through 90-91 despite the fact that he put up similar stats, was still an all star every year and had much greater team success. It's because of bad boy image. People didn't like him and they didn't like Laimbeer. Dumars (despite the fact that hew as on the hated Pistons team) was more of a nice guy, of anyone on those Pistons teams, he had the best image and was the least likely guy on the team to mix it up and get in someone's face, least likely Piston to throw a punch, etc. That's why a) he finished with the same ranking in MVP voting as Isiah in both 89 and 90 and b) Dumars made all NBA third team in 90 over Isiah despite the fact that Isiah was clearly the better player and was the heart and soul of the team, according to this article and many others:

https://exnba.com/articles-news/isiah-thomas-on-who-could-be-bad-boy-on-80s-pistons/

Isiah made all NBA 2nd team in 82-83, while finishing 16th in MVP voting. And that was BEFORE there was a significant bias against the Pistons. So I'm actually being conservative here by saying that he if we remove the bias against the Bad Boys Pistons and specifically Isiah and Laimbeer, then this is what Isiah would have achieved:

-All NBA team (either 1st or 2nd team) 9 years in a row
-Top 10 in MVP voting 5 years in a row

What player still left on the board can compete with that?

Still not convinced Isiah deserves consideration here? How about:

-12 time all-star (in a 13 year career)
-1 time NBA Finals MVP
-2 time NBA champion
-2 times was the best player on an NBA championship winning team (Isiah led the Pistons in minutes, points, assists and steals - in both the regular season and playoffs in both 88-89 and 89-90)
-Only player ever (other than Magic and Oscar) to average over 19 PPG and over 9 APG for his career
-Joined a Pistons team which was on the brink of extinction - there was talk about the team moving to a different city - or possibly shutting down entirely - they went 21-61 the year before Isiah joined the team. They improved their win total by a whopping 18 games in Isiah's rookie year. 2 years later they made the playoffs and 6 years after that they were champions.

Still not convinced? Perhaps you missed this piece of NBA history:



Isiah with 43 points in game 6 of the 88 NBA finals - against the Showtime Lakers who were in their dynasty. He scored 25 of those points in the 3rd quarter on a severely injured ankle. One of the most heroic performances of any NBA game, especially one in the NBA finals. If not for the phantom foul call on Laimbeer:
a) this would have been arguably the greatest performance in a NBA finals clinging game in history
b) would have been 3 titles in a row for the Pistons
c) Isiah would have been finals MVP in 88

Even Lakers coach Pat Riley calls it a phantom foul:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

To anyone who says "oh Laimbeer got away with other fouls so he deserved to get called for that one"...no, that's BS because a) refs hated Laimbeer, if anything they were out to get him and are more likely to favor the Lakers with calls since the Lakers were showtime, they were the much more liked team and had a much better image than the Pistons and b) the Phantom Foul was called with 14 seconds left in the game - it was an elimination game in the NBA finals. You're comparing apples to oranges if you say Laimbeer got calls in the 2nd quarter of this game so it's ok that the phantom foul was called. Obviously a foul being called on a dude attempting a game winning shot with 14 seconds left - that call carries MUCH more weight and significance than a call in the 2nd quarter.

Also, someone posted in the other thread something like "oh, even if the foul wasn't called on Laimbeer, if Kareem misses that show there was a Lakers player in position for the offensive rebound and put-back. To that I say, no! Look at this video, pause it at the :41 mark because that is the exact moment this whistle blows for the foul. At that moment, neither team looks to be in better position for the rebound - if anything, the Pistons look to be in slightly better rebounding position if you pause it there. If you let the video keep going another second or 2 after the whistle then yes, the Lakers player under the basket is in better position to get a rebound but it was way after the whistle at that point so why would the Pistons keep going for the rebound?

And no, if you think that magical game vs the Lakers was a fluke and if you think that was the only iconic performance by Isiah, you're wrong:

https://theundefeated.com/features/pistons-isiah-thomas-dropped-16-points-in-94-seconds-1984-nba-playoffs-against-knicks/

The bigger the stage, the more pressure is on, the better Isiah delivers. Something you can't say about pretty much any player left on the board at this point.

McHale - did everything you could want from a PF. He could score (with more effective post up moves than just about any player ever), he could rebound and is also one of the best post defenders of all time. He beat opposing bigs down the floor and had defensive versatility (at times would defend the 3, 4 and 5)..oh yeah and he won 3 championships, 5 NBA finals appearances. I think a good comparison for McHale is Pippen. Both had really good team success while playing as the no. 2 guy alongside one of the best players ever (Bird, Jordan), neither has great longevity but both had a solid 3 or 4 years where they were arguably the best in the world at their position and a legit top 5 or 6 player in the league. I think who was better between McHale and Pippen is pretty debatable (McHale a better scorer, about even on D, maybe a slight edge on D for Pippen). Pippen got in several rounds ago in this poll, so right here seems about right for McHale.

Willis Reed - Frazier and Ewing both got voted in for this thing a long time ago. Yet Reed is arguably better than both of them. Reed was finals MVP twice, whereas Frazier (while playing on same team as Reed) and Ewing both won finals MVP 0 times.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:49 pm

Some players to think about:

PG -- Isiah Thomas, Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Gary Payton,Bob Cousy
SG -- Ray Allen, Sam Jones. Manu Ginobili, Hal Greer
SF -- Paul Pierce, Adrian Dantley, Alex English
PF -- Pau Gasol. Kevin McHale, Chris Webber (+Horry)
C -- Willis Reed, Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Ben Wallace, Anthony Davis(+ Walton)

Looking at the PGs, Westbrook is the biggest impact maker but (as we've seen in Washington this year), he can't seem to adjust his game to be anything but what he is. Giant stat producer but also huge proportion of "Oh NO!" plays. I'd have him as the best floor raiser but worst ceiling raiser. Isiah is like Westbrook lite only seems to be higher IQ and able to adjust his game more to fit his teammates. I mark him down for his low efficiency and for forcing out Adrian Dantley but not too much because the team won two titles despite the Dantley trade. I think he get romanticized by playing in an era with Bird and Magic; like Carmelo gets romanticized by being the 3rd star from their draft behind LeBron and Wade. Neither belong in the category of the first two. Payton scored in good volume, got assists but never really seemed to fulfill his draft predictions about him being Rondo like passer, and has a rep as one of the 3 most likely candidates for GOAT PG defender (though +/- type numbers have soured me on this a bit as Nate McMillan on his own team seems to have more defensive impact). Billups is the opposite of Westbrook here. Lowest floor raiser of the group, but probably the most portable with easily the highest off ball skills. If I have a bad team, they rank Westbrook, Isiah, Payton, Billups; if I have a good team already, I would reverse that ranking. Sheesh. I will go for Chauncey Billups of the 4 here.

Wings, we have Manu, Allen, Pierce, and Sam Jones. Manu could go to PG too. Allen over Pierce and Jones for the pure wing scorer types. Manu v. Ray Allen again depends what your team is. If you need that big scorer who plays big minutes, Ray Allen. IF you have top talent and you need a swiss army knife player who can do it all, go with Manu. Again, I tend to look at winning championships and am going to go with Manu here.

Bigs, we have Reed, Pau, McHale, and Webber. Webber is a step below the other three. Reed the strongest impact but in the weakest era and for the shortest time so eliminate him as well. Pau v. McHale: my head says McHale for his stronger defense and post game, my gut says Pau for his superior passing, range, and because he played a much bigger role in the Laker championships than McHale did in the Celtics titles. I'll go with Pau here.

So,

1. Chauncey Billups
2. Manu Ginobili
3. Pau Gasol
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#7 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:58 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Some players to think about:

PG -- Isiah Thomas, Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Gary Payton,Bob Cousy
SG -- Ray Allen, Sam Jones. Manu Ginobili, Hal Greer
SF -- Paul Pierce, Adrian Dantley, Alex English
PF -- Pau Gasol. Kevin McHale, Chris Webber (+Horry)
C -- Willis Reed, Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Ben Wallace, Anthony Davis(+ Walton)

Bigs, we have Reed, Pau, McHale, and Webber. Webber is a step below the other three. Reed the strongest impact but in the weakest era and for the shortest time so eliminate him as well. Pau v. McHale: my head says McHale for his stronger defense and post game, my gut says Pau for his superior passing, range, and because he played a much bigger role in the Laker championships than McHale did in the Celtics titles. I'll go with Pau here.

So,

1. Chauncey Billups
2. Manu Ginobili
3. Pau Gasol


Are you low on Lanier or did you just forget about him? I ask because I'm currently debating between him and Reed and respect your opinions.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#8 » by sansterre » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:39 pm

1. Russell Westbrook - a complete game-changer who, at his peak, was one of the very best players in the league. He had plenty of flaws, but he carried his teams in ways that not may players left could do.

2. Manu Ginobili - WOWYR doesn't think much of him, but AuRPM loves him, and most models think very highly of his mix of usage, efficiency and ball-hawking. I don't like his fragility and limited minutes, but he was a really really good player that helped a lot of really really good teams.

3. Paul Pierce - Lots of career length and was good at everything. Easy to underestimate, but he was a strong player for a very long time.

Bob Lanier is the first out for me - metrics *love* Lanier, at least the ones I know how to find.

Question though. I'm looking at Tracy McGrady and my metrics are going nuts. His peak (by BPM) was extremely high (certainly in comparison to to the players remaining) and his performance in the playoffs was just as good. And his WOWYR was solid. But AuRPM never seemed that impressed with him. If his BPMs are to be believed then McGrady would be my first choice. But at the intersection of his not having been mentioned much yet and his modest AuRPMs I wanted to feel you guys out first.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#9 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:54 pm

Sam Jones was the leading scorer for the NBA champion for multiple years. His performance in the Finals would have made him a strong conten
der for Finals MVP in 3 years.
A strong playoff performer, he fared relatively well against two of the all-time greats, West and Oscar, in 62-66 - he scored 24 pts per 36 mpg versus their 25.5, with fg% of
47.5 vs their 45.9, and a TS % of 53.1 vs 55.2. Overall he was probably the second most impactful player of the greatest dynasty. Table is below.


Isiah Thomas also was impactful in the playoffs, leading a 2x champ. He adjusted his scoring when needed.

3rd Ill make Cowens a placeholder here. I'm big on Jones, think that Isiah will get the tiebreaker vote, and will look at this closer before the next round.




g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36 ts % reb/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6 0.537
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4 0.562
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6 0.577
63 Oscar Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8 0.590
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0 0.523
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1 0.526
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1 0.523
64 Oscar Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6 0.504
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3 0.495
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0 0.520
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1 0.564
66 Oscar Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6 0.540
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1 0.501
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9 0.595

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0 0.531 5.5
West/Oscar 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5 0.552 6.1


* 84 3404 875 1877 607 715 554 338 258 2347




1. Jones
2. Isiah
3. Cowens
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#10 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:11 pm

1. Isiah Thomas - His case is hurt by him taking a step back in regular season play once it really started clicking in the play-offs. He still has multiple high level performances in deep play-off runs though, something not a lot of other candidates can say at this point. IT being a major part on two title teams and someone who the stats back up as impactful (on both ends of the floor) makes me quite confident he is the best candidate left by my criteria.

2. Willis Reed - He has similar longevity as Kawhi, had a case to be the best player in the league at a point and also has multiple very strong post-seasons. I understand some people who value longevity more to maybe wait a bit more on him but the only reason he's behind IT for me is him not being at best during his second title run in 73.

3. Paul Arizin - It's starting to get harder at this point but, while guys like Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, Dwight Howard, Russell Westbrook, Kevin McHale, Sam Jones and Chauncey Billups all have strong cases at this point, none of them managed to reach the succes as a first option that Paul Arizin did.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#11 » by Baski » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:26 pm

1. Isiah Thomas

12x All star
5x All NBA
2x NBA Champion, both as best player and leader.

An all-time great floor general that could turn on the scoring gear at times. He was quite the spectacle in the early years when he was making All NBA 1st teams, though the competition for those spots wasn't as tough as it would becone later with the emergence of Jordan, Stockton, Drexler and KJ.

I buy into the theory that his underwhelming individual accolades relative to his peers were partially a product of the perception of him as a dirty player. Partially because of the multiple GOAT tier stars in the 80s, he was clearly worse than any other "dynasty leader" that he was compared to ala Bird/Jordan/Magic.

And even though he was far from the best defender of the team, he embodied their calling card very well as a leader. We've held him out long enough. It's time.

2. Dwight Howard
3. Kevin McHale
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#12 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:17 pm

sansterre wrote:
Question though. I'm looking at Tracy McGrady and my metrics are going nuts. His peak (by BPM) was extremely high (certainly in comparison to to the players remaining) and his performance in the playoffs was just as good. And his WOWYR was solid. But AuRPM never seemed that impressed with him. If his BPMs are to be believed then McGrady would be my first choice. But at the intersection of his not having been mentioned much yet and his modest AuRPMs I wanted to feel you guys out first.


Re TMac, there's a few things. 1. The injuries which took their toll on him and made him miss games. 2. His efficiency for a volume scorer wasn't so good outside of that one year where he was a top 3 player in the league. 3. The combo of lack of playoff success and the general idea his intangibles were lacking along with his work ethic. I mean its ok to have him at a ballot at this range but I think there's some questions about his ability to lead a team and whatnot. Sort of like Dwight imo.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#13 » by Odinn21 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:51 pm

sansterre wrote:Question though. I'm looking at Tracy McGrady and my metrics are going nuts. His peak (by BPM) was extremely high (certainly in comparison to to the players remaining) and his performance in the playoffs was just as good. And his WOWYR was solid. But AuRPM never seemed that impressed with him. If his BPMs are to be believed then McGrady would be my first choice. But at the intersection of his not having been mentioned much yet and his modest AuRPMs I wanted to feel you guys out first.

The only time McGrady did well in the playoffs was 2005. He exploited Nowitzki's issues against smaller, quicker players. He was good on defense, great on offense. He had an insane performance in an elimination game (game 6).

2003, 2005, 2007 and 2008 are the seasons McGrady could get out of 1st round. I'll go backwards;
In 2008, the Rockets lost to a better team and McGrady's efficiency took a huge hit like most superstars lost in 1st round.
In 2007, the Rockets lost to a worse team and McGrady's performance was one of the major reasons.
In 2005, like I said, the only defendable performance of McGrady in the playoffs.
In 2003, this is the series why McGrady never thought as a major playoff force. The Magic built a 3-1 lead over the Pistons. McGrady started to talk like winning against such good defensive team was easy, he was talking sh.t right here and there like it was over. And not only he and the Magic blew such a lead, the overall scoreboard was 309-248, that's 20 ppg mov. None of the games were close.
McGrady in the first 4 games; 14.1 bpm, 11.6 obpm
McGrady in the last 3 games; 6.0 bpm, 6.9 obpm
That is one of the biggest drop offs I'm aware of, if not the biggest. You can think 6.0 bpm is still good but it wasn't. He had a 10.5 bpm regular season, he was 14.1 bpm in the first 4 games, his team was constructed around him and he utterly bottled it. Not just with his performance but also with his demeanour.

McGrady doesn't have anything like Garnett's 2004 playoffs performance it's not just about his fortune, he was also the reason on more than one occassion.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#14 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:09 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Some players to think about:

PG -- Isiah Thomas, Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Gary Payton,Bob Cousy
SG -- Ray Allen, Sam Jones. Manu Ginobili, Hal Greer
SF -- Paul Pierce, Adrian Dantley, Alex English
PF -- Pau Gasol. Kevin McHale, Chris Webber (+Horry)
C -- Willis Reed, Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Ben Wallace, Anthony Davis(+ Walton)

Bigs, we have Reed, Pau, McHale, and Webber. Webber is a step below the other three. Reed the strongest impact but in the weakest era and for the shortest time so eliminate him as well. Pau v. McHale: my head says McHale for his stronger defense and post game, my gut says Pau for his superior passing, range, and because he played a much bigger role in the Laker championships than McHale did in the Celtics titles. I'll go with Pau here.

So,

1. Chauncey Billups
2. Manu Ginobili
3. Pau Gasol


Are you low on Lanier or did you just forget about him? I ask because I'm currently debating between him and Reed and respect your opinions.


Both really. I have Lanier as good offense, weak defense big, like McAdoo but not as good though with a longer prime. But I was listing players others had listed plus a couple that I thought should be mentioned if someone else was (Greer for Sam Jones, English for Dantley) and no one had mentioned him.

I will say that others, particularly Owly, hold Lanier in higher regard than I do defensively.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#15 » by Joao Saraiva » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:08 pm

Votes
1. Chauncey Billups
2. Dwight Howard
3. Manu Ginobili

Billups is for me the prototype of what a great PG is. Superb tempo control, can shoot and delivers big plays, involves his teammates, defends well enough so he isn't a mismatch on defense and he can exploit on offense: posting up smaller guards, pulling back to shoot or driving against bigger guys. He has a complete arsenal, and that's what made him such a great post season player.

He has only one championship and FMVP, but he has several long playoff runs that I consider successfull ones.
2005 is an obvious one, where 1 shot only is the difference in a 7 game series. He also was the best player on the court in the 05 finals.

I beleive the Pistons had success from 03 to 08 with 6 ECF consecutive appearences, and then in 09 he was also in the WCF with the Nuggets, putting up a great fight against the Lakers. This type of longevity and consistency is something I value a lot about Billups.

Like someone pointed out earlier Billups didn't exactly succeed out of the gates, but being successfull later didn't hurt guys like Nash or Dirk, so why should it hurt Billups?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#16 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:18 pm

Thru post #15:

Isiah Thomas - 5 (Baski, Cavsfansince84, Dutchball97, Hal14, Odinn21)
Chauncey Billups - 2 (Joao Saraiva, penbeast0)
Russell Westbrook - 1 (sansterre)
Pau Gasol - 1 (trex_8063)
Sam Jones - 1 (DQuinn1575)


Probably about 25-26 hours left for this one.

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#17 » by Magic Is Magic » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:22 am

I am placing my Vote for the #43 ranking

1. Bob Cousy
2. Willis Reed
3. Russell Westbrook


1. Bob Cousy: What didn't this guy do? 13x All Star, 6x Champion, 8x Assist Leader, 1x MVP, and 10x 1st team All NBA. I see people are putting Baylor over Cousy and I'm not mad at it, Cousy did have the better team after all. But it's hard to argue against 6 rings to Baylor's zero. 6 vs 0 is huge, and of course Cousy's MVP which Baylor never won. Cousy was also top 3 in point scored for a total of 4x just like Baylor. This is a no brainer for me but Baylor was already voted in ahead of Cousy.

2. Willis Reed. 3x top 5 in MVP with 1 MVP win. 2 rings and 2 Finals MVPs. No one else left has this resume. Reed's 1970 peak is insane: 1st team all NBA, 1st team all Defense, All star game MVP, Regular season MVP, Finals MVP. His infamous return for the game 7 was just enough to seal the deal (him and Walt Frazier going off) against Jerry West, Wilt, and Elgin Baylor. That Lakers trio should have won that Finals but Reed wouldn't let them.

3. Russell Westbrook, One of those hard players to rank. "Is he too high? Is he too low?" Everyone wonders. He has his MVP. Averaged a triple double for a full season a couple of times now. He has been top 5 in assists 8x, and regarding PER over 25 he has three seasons In the RS and PO above 25.0. He also has 7 all NBA selections. All that is missing form his career is that championship ring. Some might not like his high energy play style and I will admit his scoring efficiency should be better but Westbrook is next start up in this round of rankings.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 

Post#18 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:11 pm

Thru post #17:

Isiah Thomas - 5 (Baski, Cavsfansince84, Dutchball97, Hal14, Odinn21)
Chauncey Billups - 2 (Joao Saraiva, penbeast0)
Russell Westbrook - 1 (sansterre)
Bob Cousy - 1 (Magic Is Magic)
Pau Gasol - 1 (trex_8063)
Sam Jones - 1 (DQuinn1575)


Little late, sorry.
Anyway, 11 votes requires 6 for a majority; so we'll first eliminate those bottom four, which transfers one to Isiah and the rest are ghosted (though a few 3rd picks for Westy, fwiw)......

Isiah - 6
Chauncey - 2
(ghosted) - 3

So Isiah has it. I'll get the next up....

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #43 (Isiah Thomas) 

Post#19 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:50 pm

Apologies for missing the vote. Busy time right now.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.

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