How many players have a reasonable case over Jordan offensively?

[No-more-rings]

Just offense, don’t include defense. Please name them.

[freethedevil]

Lebron-Comprable scoring and creation in the playoffs assuming you look at his best years as oposed to trying to shoehorn 08 and 2011 there+being a signifcantly more resilient against defensive adjustments and a resiliency egde against elite defenses. Has had incredible results with and without spacing, led goat-lvl playoff offenses,and as timo has outlined through 16 and 17 is basically unaffected by the level of opposing defense, which is a lot mroe than can be said for mj

Magic-leading goat lvl playoff offenses, goat creator

That's probably it.

[s0ciety]

Just offense, don’t include defense. Please name them.

Reasonable, so, not that I necessarily have any of these guys over MJ offensively:

Magic, Curry, Nash, Oscar, LeBron, Bird

[Gregoire]

Magic, Bird, Nash, Curry. That's it.

[euroleague]

for career or for peak?

[HeartBreakKid]

Oscar Robertson, Steve Nash, Magic Johnson, Lebron James - Maybe Nowitzki, Curry and CP3?

Probably not Curry to be honest, the Warriors post season offense wasn't as threatening as their defense pre Durant.



Robertson, Nash, Nowitzki and CP3 teams usually lost in the post season because of their defense. I don't think there is much of a hollistic reason to think an offense anchored by them would be worse than Jordans?

[RCM88x]

LeBron and Magic, maybe Curry

[Odinn21]

Magic Johnson, LeBron James and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
Shaquille O'Neal is also up there if it's about peak or extended peak.
Oscar Robertson could be mentioned as well. Not entirely sure about him though.

I guess that's about it.

For some other names mentioned in the thread;
Steve Nash can not match Jordan's offensive output. Stephen Curry can not match Jordan's postseason resilience. Larry Bird can not match Jordan's output against tough defenses.
I think they are clearly worse. Maybe not by big margins but very very clear.

[Doctor MJ]

Just offense, don’t include defense. Please name them.

Top of my head:

Bird
Magic
Nash
LeBron
Durant
Curry

Not really sure if I feel comfortable including guys from earlier eras, but Oscar, West, and Kareem deserve a shout out.

[Doctor MJ]

Probably not Curry to be honest, the Warriors post season offense wasn't as threatening as their defense pre Durant.

The argument: Replace Curry with Jordan, and the Warriors never have the GOAT playoff offense and it's really not close.

[Doctor MJ]

[quote="Odinn21"
Steve Nash can not match Jordan's offensive output. [/quote]

...but Jordan can't do what Nash can either.

[Odinn21]

Steve Nash can not match Jordan's offensive output.

...but Jordan can't do what Nash can either.

So, let's switch 2005-07 Nash with 1991-93 Jordan...
Like always, I think you're too involved with Rtg numbers that you miss some points regarding on court production.

Also;
1990 Bulls +4.2 rORtg
1991 Bulls +6.7 rORtg
1992 Bulls +7.3 rORtg
1993 Bulls +4.9 rORtg
1996 Bulls +7.6 rORtg
1997 Bulls +7.7 rORtg
1998 Bulls +2.7 rORtg

Jordan comes way closer to your favourite argument for Nash than the on court production gap between them.

[Doctor MJ]

Steve Nash can not match Jordan's offensive output.

...but Jordan can't do what Nash can either.

So, let's switch 2005-07 Nash with 1991-93 Jordan...
Like always, I think you're too involved with Rtg numbers that you miss some points regarding on court production.

Also;
1990 Bulls +4.2 rORtg
1991 Bulls +6.7 rORtg
1992 Bulls +7.3 rORtg
1993 Bulls +4.9 rORtg
1996 Bulls +7.6 rORtg
1997 Bulls +7.7 rORtg
1998 Bulls +2.7 rORtg

Jordan comes way closer to your favourite argument for Nash than the on court production gap between them.

What do you mean "switch" them? Are you simply trying to say "But Nash can't do what Jordan did" again. Okay, noted, again.

Re: Jordan's Bulls by rORtg closer to Nash's Suns than Nash's volume stats do to Jordan's. Okay, but this isn't anything like an apples-to-apples comparison. Jordan's got a case over Nash, and Nash has one over Jordan, hence the relevance to the thread.

Re: "Like always, I think...", "your favorite argument". Maybe focus less on regurgitating straw men in order to attack my general credibility, and put more focus on one what the OP actually asked.

[Odinn21]

...but Jordan can't do what Nash can either.

So, let's switch 2005-07 Nash with 1991-93 Jordan...
Like always, I think you're too involved with Rtg numbers that you miss some points regarding on court production.

Also;
1990 Bulls +4.2 rORtg
1991 Bulls +6.7 rORtg
1992 Bulls +7.3 rORtg
1993 Bulls +4.9 rORtg
1996 Bulls +7.6 rORtg
1997 Bulls +7.7 rORtg
1998 Bulls +2.7 rORtg

Jordan comes way closer to your favourite argument for Nash than the on court production gap between them.

What do you mean "switch" them? Are you simply trying to say "But Nash can't do what Jordan did" again. Okay, noted, again.

Re: Jordan's Bulls by rORtg closer to Nash's Suns than Nash's volume stats do to Jordan's. Okay, but this isn't anything like an apples-to-apples comparison. Jordan's got a case over Nash, and Nash has one over Jordan, hence the relevance to the thread.

Re: "Like always, I think...", "your favorite argument". Maybe focus less on regurgitating straw men in order to attack my general credibility, and put more focus on one what the OP actually asked.

It wasn't an attack on your credibility by any means. It was like a chat with an old pal for me, knowing your mindset, etc. Apologies if I caused any disturbance.

What I meant by switch 2005-07 Nash on 1991-93 Bulls and 1991-93 Jordan on 2005-07 Suns.

I just don't see a case for Nash over Jordan for offense. It's clear that you do. I think we can just leave it at that. (:

[Lost92Bricks]

This board is crazy sometimes. Nash is not on MJ's level. Nash's teams were built strictly for offense with little regard for defense and that has inflated your view of him.

MJ did not play on teams like that. He played with defensive minded players who were somewhat limited in terms of shooting and scoring. He CARRIED those teams offensively. And even with that those Bulls teams were still some of the best ever in history.

Statistically it is not even close between the two so we don't even have to get into that. Nash is one of the best ever but ranking him over MJ should never happen.

[Doctor MJ]

So, let's switch 2005-07 Nash with 1991-93 Jordan...
Like always, I think you're too involved with Rtg numbers that you miss some points regarding on court production.

Also;
1990 Bulls +4.2 rORtg
1991 Bulls +6.7 rORtg
1992 Bulls +7.3 rORtg
1993 Bulls +4.9 rORtg
1996 Bulls +7.6 rORtg
1997 Bulls +7.7 rORtg
1998 Bulls +2.7 rORtg

Jordan comes way closer to your favourite argument for Nash than the on court production gap between them.

What do you mean "switch" them? Are you simply trying to say "But Nash can't do what Jordan did" again. Okay, noted, again.

Re: Jordan's Bulls by rORtg closer to Nash's Suns than Nash's volume stats do to Jordan's. Okay, but this isn't anything like an apples-to-apples comparison. Jordan's got a case over Nash, and Nash has one over Jordan, hence the relevance to the thread.

Re: "Like always, I think...", "your favorite argument". Maybe focus less on regurgitating straw men in order to attack my general credibility, and put more focus on one what the OP actually asked.

It wasn't an attack on your credibility by any means. It was like a chat with an old pal for me, knowing your mindset, etc. Apologies if I caused any disturbance.

What I meant by switch 2005-07 Nash on 1991-93 Bulls and 1991-93 Jordan on 2005-07 Suns.

I just don't see a case for Nash over Jordan for offense. It's clear that you do. I think we can just leave it at that. (:

Odinn, apology accepted, but do be clear you're using some not-so-friendly rhetorical techniques both in your prior post and in your current one. I'm not saying you have to be super-positive on everything all the time - lord knows I can't live up to that standard - but there's something very specifically going on with your posts here that you want to be aware of, but otherwise you can't gauge how it will hit other people.

I'll give a specific piece of advise: If you're going to bring up something you believe someone said before because you want to context your response in terms of what you already believe you understand, don't attach negativity to the statement unless you want the tone of your entire statement to be charge with that negativity.

[RCM88x]

This board is crazy sometimes. Nash is not on MJ's level. Nash's teams were built strictly for offense with little regard for defense and that has inflated your view of him.

MJ did not play on teams like that. He played with defensive minded players who were somewhat limited in terms of shooting and scoring. He CARRIED those teams offensively. And even with that those Bulls teams were still some of the best ever in history.

Statistically it is not even close between the two so we don't even have to get into that. Nash is one of the best ever but ranking him over MJ should never happen.

While I agree with the supporting cast evaluation. He did play for Phil and really only was on a strong offensive team with Phil. We've seen Jackson lead some pretty iffy offensive teams to great results. As great as Jordan is he probably was boosted by Phil's systems more than anyone else outside of Kobe.

[HeartBreakKid]

Magic Johnson, LeBron James and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
Shaquille O'Neal is also up there if it's about peak or extended peak.
Oscar Robertson could be mentioned as well. Not entirely sure about him though.

I guess that's about it.

For some other names mentioned in the thread;
Steve Nash can not match Jordan's offensive output. Stephen Curry can not match Jordan's postseason resilience. Larry Bird can not match Jordan's output against tough defenses.
I think they are clearly worse. Maybe not by big margins but very very clear.

Based on what?

Higher individual volume doesn't equate to superior offense. Nash seemed pretty unstoppable once he got to Phoenix.

[Odinn21]

What do you mean "switch" them? Are you simply trying to say "But Nash can't do what Jordan did" again. Okay, noted, again.

Re: Jordan's Bulls by rORtg closer to Nash's Suns than Nash's volume stats do to Jordan's. Okay, but this isn't anything like an apples-to-apples comparison. Jordan's got a case over Nash, and Nash has one over Jordan, hence the relevance to the thread.

Re: "Like always, I think...", "your favorite argument". Maybe focus less on regurgitating straw men in order to attack my general credibility, and put more focus on one what the OP actually asked.

It wasn't an attack on your credibility by any means. It was like a chat with an old pal for me, knowing your mindset, etc. Apologies if I caused any disturbance.

What I meant by switch 2005-07 Nash on 1991-93 Bulls and 1991-93 Jordan on 2005-07 Suns.

I just don't see a case for Nash over Jordan for offense. It's clear that you do. I think we can just leave it at that. (:

Odinn, apology accepted, but do be clear you're using some not-so-friendly rhetorical techniques both in your prior post and in your current one. I'm not saying you have to be super-positive on everything all the time - lord knows I can't live up to that standard - but there's something very specifically going on with your posts here that you want to be aware of, but otherwise you can't gauge how it will hit other people.

I'll give a specific piece of advise: If you're going to bring up something you believe someone said before because you want to context your response in terms of what you already believe you understand, don't attach negativity to the statement unless you want the tone of your entire statement to be charge with that negativity.

I think my off point assumption about your post caused you to take my previous post in this thread with negativity. I talked about what I see in a short manner.

[Doctor MJ]

This board is crazy sometimes. Nash is not on MJ's level. Nash's teams were built strictly for offense with little regard for defense and that has inflated your view of him.

MJ did not play on teams like that. He played with defensive minded players who were somewhat limited in terms of shooting and scoring. He CARRIED those teams offensively. And even with that those Bulls teams were still some of the best ever in history.

Statistically it is not even close between the two so we don't even have to get into that. Nash is one of the best ever but ranking him over MJ should never happen.

Okay, so I want to be clear I'm not trying go to war making a "Nash > Jordan" offense statement. I'm just saying there's an argument.

I've already talked about it some but to respond to a specifics here:

1. "Statistically it is not even close". You're clearly talking about the box score, not stuff with +/-. That's an outdated notion of "statistically" that is bound to trap you in '90s era thinking and make you think those who are not trapped are going crazy.

2. Nash's teams built for offense! In 2020, the idea that Nash's Suns should be seen primarily as a offense vs defense choice is really out of date too. What those Suns were doing was pace & space, which is now known as "How to play NBA offense effectively". The '90s Bulls by contrast were using a system that flat out would be foolish to use today.

An argument can be made that if Jordan had access to a good pace & space supporting cast he'd lead better offense than Nash, but that's the argument that has to be made, and it's not made when you try to excuse those Bulls as if their offensive limitations are simply a necessary evil of their great defense.