RealGM

I rewatched Game 1 of the Cavs-Magic series to chart how LeBron played. My memory which is based on watching the game a decade ago was that LeBron was on fire offensively, but was not the same level of player as he was in Miami in terms of BB IQ. After rewatching the game, I was completely wrong. I was watching the best version of LeBron. 2009 LeBron was just as smart as the Heat or 2nd stint LeBron. He was making the right reads, the right rotations on nearly every play. I saw very few plays.

2009 LeBron is clearly the best version of LeBron to me now. His athleticism was so off the charts that he made 3-5 free easy dunks per game in the halfcourt and in transition based off his athletic advantage alone. Older LeBron was a better shooter because he needed to be one. Young LeBron was so overwhelming that defenses had to completely cater their game gameplan to him.

What impressed me the most was his defensive skills. He was a legitimate DPOY type of defender. His quickness allowed him to easily closeout and make his rotations. LeBron's role on defense was akin to a Free safety than a Cornerback. The Cavs strategy featured LeBron on a weak Offensive player(Alston) so that he could focus on his help defense. He would roam around as the primary help defender covering up all of the gaps in the Cavs defense. We see Older LeBron more like an Ed Reed type who played deep and was more cautious. Young LeBron otoh was more like Troy Polamalu. He was EVERYWHERE on the court. Mike Brown gave him the freedom to play his game on defense. He was playing the passing lanes, closing out, switching on help defense, guarding Dwight, etc. Based on my obervation of the game, I didn't see LeBron make a mistake on help defense.

Check out this sequence. LeBron throws down a monster dunk in transition, then blocks Dwight Howard on defense, then responds with a 3 pointer. The best sequence of plays I've ever seen from a player. He was routinely making plays like this in 2009.



LeBron's Shot chart.



09 LeBron took a bunch of 20-22 feet jumpers off the dribble. That was his go to move when the defense cut off his driving lanes.

Defensive stats:



Offense:
8 Assists
12 Potential Assists
2 Free Throw assists
1 Hockey Assist
9 fouls drawn

Notes:
-For the first half, LeBron was tasked with guarding Rafer Alston. The Cavs put him in a role akin to a safety. It was his job to roam around the paint to provide help defense which he was excellent at. In the 2nd half he was guarding PIetrus and Turkoglu. On the other end, Pietrus was guarding LeBron the most with a little of Turkoglu mixed in.

-The Magic were clearly scared of LeBron's defense. They rarely took him 1 on 1. Most of their shot attempts came off a screen or when LeBron was playing help defense.

-Anderson Varejao was a beast. His offball game was a perfect complement to LeBron. He got 3 layups alone from cutting to the basket when his man was sleeping.

-Why did the Cavs lose the series? The Magic was a bad matchup for the Cavs due to their size advantage. Howard was destroying Big Z and Varejao which forced the Cavs to double Howard. Ben Wallace had a broken leg so he wasn't effective vs Howard either. The Cavs roster was weak on the perimeter. West, Mo Williams, and LeBron each played 40+ MPG in the series because the Cavs had no depth in the perimeter. The Magic had a 6' 10 Lewis against a slow Varejao, 6' 10 Hedo against 6' 4" West, and 6' 5" Pietrus vs 6'1 Delonte West. Their backup option was the no defense 32 year old Wally Sczerbiak who had messed up knees and retired after the season. Next up was Sasha Pavlovic and the 6'2" Boobie Gibson The Cavs had no one between 6' 5" and 6" 10 who could guard on the perimeter outside of LeBron. Add that to the overwhelming mismatch with Dwight, that's a recipe of getting killed on defense.

The Cavs addressed that weakness the next season adding by adding 6' 8" Antawn Jamison, 6' 8" Jamario Moon, 6' 6" Anthony Parker, 6' 6" Leon Powe and added Shaq to go against Dwight. Of course the Cavs ended up facing the Celtics who presented different mismatches. I believe the 2010 Cavs beat the 2009 Magic and the 2009 Cavs would beat the 2010 Celtics.





-There's a myth out there that the Magic defense played LeBron 1 on 1, guarded his shooters tightly, and forced LeBron to beat them. That is not what happened at all. The Magic gameplan was clearly geared towards stopping LeBron. Dwight Howard said in the interview that the gameplan was to prevent LeBron from getting into the paint. Every time LeBron had the ball isolated, Dwight Howard would shift completely over to that side ignoring his

Pic of the Magic defense


LeBron being triple teamed




The highlights of the game:

Awesome post! Dude was everywhere!

Check out this sequence. LeBron throws down a monster dunk in transition, then blocks Dwight Howard on defense, then responds with a 3 pointer. The best sequence of plays I've ever seen from a player. He was routinely making plays like this in 2009.

Check the very next possession where Lebron makes dwight opt for a post up as opposed to a dunk attempt.



And yeah, this is why I pretty strongly disagreed with "2018 lebron's playoff production is unrivalled." No, not really.

You couldn’t do a damn thing with 09 Bron. Best player ever.

I agree in the sense that I already knew his bbiq was off the charts in 09 and people overrate the degree it improved from there to 2012. Also yes his defense was incredible. He went from being mvp level in 08 to a while nother level in 09 in almost every way. His 09 playoff run is pretty much universally underrated despite him breaking most every metric type record because people act like his team choked and it was his fault somehow. We as bb fans have just been conditioned to believe that any playoff run which doesn't end in a title can't be that great.

I think this illustrates the greater issue of analyzing a single PS run, I agree that the level Lebron played at during ts 09 PS is peak Lebron, maybe the GOAT peak for a single extended PS run, but is a clear outlier. Lebron shot 28.6% from 10-16 during the RS, he sot 44.4 in PS. He shot 38.8% on twos from 16+ feet in the RS, versus 48.6 in the PS. I think 09 is probably Lebron's peak "performance" RS and PS combined, but a lot of his performance in 09 was driven by random shooting luck. i think in 12 and 13 he was a better player, his shot selection improved(largely due to better teammates), he became an overall better shooter and a better post player, his defensive activity was as insane as it was in 09 but he was still in his prime run defensively.

JustJoe wrote:I think this illustrates the greater issue of analyzing a single PS run, I agree that the level Lebron played at during ts 09 PS is peak Lebron, maybe the GOAT peak for a single extended PS run, but is a clear outlier. Lebron shot 28.6% from 10-16 during the RS, he sot 44.4 in PS. He shot 38.8% on twos from 16+ feet in the RS, versus 48.6 in the PS. I think 09 is probably Lebron's peak "performance" RS and PS combined, but a lot of his performance in 09 was driven by random shooting luck. i think in 12 and 13 he was a better player, his shot selection improved(largely due to better teammates), he became an overall better shooter and a better post player, his defensive activity was as insane as it was in 09 but he was still in his prime run defensively.

How much of the shot selection thing is just the NBA community as a whole getting smarter about shot selection though? When Lebron took a ton of long 2s...so did seemingly all of the other perimeter stars of the time.

I'm not denying that Lebron has gained some feel for the game since 2009, but in my view that's entirely offset by the younger version's ability to beat smaller players off the bounce without a screen. Even by his Miami days Lebron had visibly lost a ton of first step explosion and was more likely to need a screen to get to the cup/use that (offensive foul?) off hand push off maneuver while driving into the lane .

I think I've seen a couple times recently how someone like Ben Simmons has more fluidity than Lebron and I think to a certain degree we've forgotten what kind of a special athlete young Lebron was, in large part because he started to lose some of his quickness very early (relatively speaking) even if he kept much of his vertical explosion and top end speed for many years to come.

I appreciate that this really holds true for most players, and that much of greatness is having the wisdom to know what shots to take, but I just feel like the 2009 Lebron was the iteration most capable of getting great shots and already had an IQ that would stand out for a player of any age. Lebron has surely grown wiser and more savvy since then, but during the same period the NBA as a whole has gotten a lot more educated as to what the best shots are. I also don't think it's a given that any version of Lebron (2020, etc.) has a markedly more reliable jump shot than the 2009 iteration, even taking into account an unsustainable hot streak in the 09 playoffs.

Im Your Father wrote:

JustJoe wrote:I think this illustrates the greater issue of analyzing a single PS run, I agree that the level Lebron played at during ts 09 PS is peak Lebron, maybe the GOAT peak for a single extended PS run, but is a clear outlier. Lebron shot 28.6% from 10-16 during the RS, he sot 44.4 in PS. He shot 38.8% on twos from 16+ feet in the RS, versus 48.6 in the PS. I think 09 is probably Lebron's peak "performance" RS and PS combined, but a lot of his performance in 09 was driven by random shooting luck. i think in 12 and 13 he was a better player, his shot selection improved(largely due to better teammates), he became an overall better shooter and a better post player, his defensive activity was as insane as it was in 09 but he was still in his prime run defensively.

How much of the shot selection thing is just the NBA community as a whole getting smarter about shot selection though? When Lebron took a ton of long 2s...so did seemingly all of the other perimeter stars of the time.

I'm not denying that Lebron has gained some feel for the game since 2009, but in my view that's entirely offset by the younger version's ability to beat smaller players off the bounce without a screen. Even by his Miami days Lebron had visibly lost a ton of first step explosion and was more likely to need a screen to get to the cup/use that (offensive foul?) off hand push off maneuver while driving into the lane .

I think I've seen a couple times recently how someone like Ben Simmons has more fluidity than Lebron and I think to a certain degree we've forgotten what kind of a special athlete young Lebron was, in large part because he started to lose some of his quickness very early (relatively speaking) even if he kept much of his vertical explosion and top end speed for many years to come.

I appreciate that this really holds true for most players, and that much of greatness is having the wisdom to know what shots to take, but I just feel like the 2009 Lebron was the iteration most capable of getting great shots and already had an IQ that would stand out for a player of any age. Lebron has surely grown wiser and more savvy since then, but during the same period the NBA as a whole has gotten a lot more educated as to what the best shots are. I also don't think it's a given that any version of Lebron (2020, etc.) has a markedly more reliable jump shot than the 2009 iteration, even taking into account an unsustainable hot streak in the 09 playoffs.

People underappreciate just how athletic 1st stint Cleveland LeBron was. He was simply on another level even compared to his Miami self. Just looking back at his highlights from that era, LeBron generated so many easy baskets due to his athletic advantage. What amazes me is how often opposing centers made a "business decision" to not contest his dunks at all. When LeBron got a full head of steam to the basket, he was the 2000s version of Charles Barkley. Centers moved out of the way to avoid being on a poster. Check out how Dwight made a "business decision" in the highlights below. Go to 2:55 in the video. LeBron is running full steam at the basket and gets a dunk before Dwight even knows what hit him. Older LeBron is slower so Dwight would have enough time to assess the play and contest the dunk. Young LeBron was lightning fast so Dwight had no chance. Check out the next play too. LeBron does a quick spin that gives Dwight no time to contest.



LeBron's full season highlights for the 2009 season tell the same story too. Over half of his best dunks were plays where the center decided to move out of the way to avoid being on a poster. Young LeBron at full speed was a frightening proposition.

JustJoe wrote:I think this illustrates the greater issue of analyzing a single PS run, I agree that the level Lebron played at during ts 09 PS is peak Lebron, maybe the GOAT peak for a single extended PS run, but is a clear outlier. Lebron shot 28.6% from 10-16 during the RS, he sot 44.4 in PS. He shot 38.8% on twos from 16+ feet in the RS, versus 48.6 in the PS. I think 09 is probably Lebron's peak "performance" RS and PS combined, but a lot of his performance in 09 was driven by random shooting luck. i think in 12 and 13 he was a better player, his shot selection improved(largely due to better teammates), he became an overall better shooter and a better post player, his defensive activity was as insane as it was in 09 but he was still in his prime run defensively.

What about the 66 win regular seaosn that prefaced it?

colts18 wrote:

Im Your Father wrote:

JustJoe wrote:I think this illustrates the greater issue of analyzing a single PS run, I agree that the level Lebron played at during ts 09 PS is peak Lebron, maybe the GOAT peak for a single extended PS run, but is a clear outlier. Lebron shot 28.6% from 10-16 during the RS, he sot 44.4 in PS. He shot 38.8% on twos from 16+ feet in the RS, versus 48.6 in the PS. I think 09 is probably Lebron's peak "performance" RS and PS combined, but a lot of his performance in 09 was driven by random shooting luck. i think in 12 and 13 he was a better player, his shot selection improved(largely due to better teammates), he became an overall better shooter and a better post player, his defensive activity was as insane as it was in 09 but he was still in his prime run defensively.

How much of the shot selection thing is just the NBA community as a whole getting smarter about shot selection though? When Lebron took a ton of long 2s...so did seemingly all of the other perimeter stars of the time.

I'm not denying that Lebron has gained some feel for the game since 2009, but in my view that's entirely offset by the younger version's ability to beat smaller players off the bounce without a screen. Even by his Miami days Lebron had visibly lost a ton of first step explosion and was more likely to need a screen to get to the cup/use that (offensive foul?) off hand push off maneuver while driving into the lane .

I think I've seen a couple times recently how someone like Ben Simmons has more fluidity than Lebron and I think to a certain degree we've forgotten what kind of a special athlete young Lebron was, in large part because he started to lose some of his quickness very early (relatively speaking) even if he kept much of his vertical explosion and top end speed for many years to come.

I appreciate that this really holds true for most players, and that much of greatness is having the wisdom to know what shots to take, but I just feel like the 2009 Lebron was the iteration most capable of getting great shots and already had an IQ that would stand out for a player of any age. Lebron has surely grown wiser and more savvy since then, but during the same period the NBA as a whole has gotten a lot more educated as to what the best shots are. I also don't think it's a given that any version of Lebron (2020, etc.) has a markedly more reliable jump shot than the 2009 iteration, even taking into account an unsustainable hot streak in the 09 playoffs.

People underappreciate just how athletic 1st stint Cleveland LeBron was. He was simply on another level even compared to his Miami self. Just looking back at his highlights from that era, LeBron generated so many easy baskets due to his athletic advantage. What amazes me is how often opposing centers made a "business decision" to not contest his dunks at all. When LeBron got a full head of steam to the basket, he was the 2000s version of Charles Barkley. Centers moved out of the way to avoid being on a poster. Check out how Dwight made a "business decision" in the highlights below. Go to 2:55 in the video. LeBron is running full steam at the basket and gets a dunk before Dwight even knows what hit him. Older LeBron is slower so Dwight would have enough time to assess the play and contest the dunk. Young LeBron was lightning fast so Dwight had no chance. Check out the next play too. LeBron does a quick spin that gives Dwight no time to contest.

Watch on YouTube

LeBron's full season highlights for the 2009 season tell the same story too. Over half of his best dunks were plays where the center decided to move out of the way to avoid being on a poster. Young LeBron at full speed was a frightening proposition.

Watch on YouTube

He really was on a completely different level as an athlete before leaving for Miami. The 2011 Lebron thread was mostly people (me included) who were wondering WTF happened to his explosiveness, and we never got an answer - was it nagging injuries, aging (though he was only 25-26 in his first Miami season), being out of shape, a change in mentality, or what? Of course he was still a great athlete but it was night and day compared to his Cleveland days, look how much slower he is here compared to those 2009 highlights

;ab_channel=HouseofHighlights

09 Lebron playing on a modern 5 out offense would just break the game. How the hell would you stop him? Coaches would also never let him take so many 20+ foot 2s like he did back then which would further bump his scoring efficiency.

Yeah I never bought the notion that Lebron was at his peak when he was older. This is his peak, the '09-'13 era. On both ends of the floor. Not this "coasting" BS he was allowed to do because of how weak the conference was.

That game was waaaaayyyy better than game six against Boston. His defensive numbers impressive,too. One of the best series in the history, specially offensively. I'm always in a love with tracking data, excellent work. I wonder about his about defensive numbers in other games, cause of his less defensive effort.

Game 1 against Orlando was one of his best games ever and even though Orlando was a horrible matchup I believe the Cavs would have won this series if Orlando wouldn't have hit every possible clutch shot in game 1 to 4 but they did....

That's why it's dumb to me to hear people say that 2017, 18 or 20 are the best versions of Lebron. Lebron was always a very smart player, i think some people tend to forget that. 2016 Lebron could play like the goat for half a series, 09 Lebron could do it an entire playoff run.

No-more-rings wrote:That's why it's dumb to me to hear people say that 2017, 18 or 20 are the best versions of Lebron. Lebron was always a very smart player, i think some people tend to forget that. 2016 Lebron could play like the goat for half a series, 09 Lebron could do it an entire playoff run.

As I said before, LeBron's peak is so underrated now because of its great longevity ... Same thing for Kareem.

Homer38 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:That's why it's dumb to me to hear people say that 2017, 18 or 20 are the best versions of Lebron. Lebron was always a very smart player, i think some people tend to forget that. 2016 Lebron could play like the goat for half a series, 09 Lebron could do it an entire playoff run.

As I said before, LeBron's peak is so underrated now because of its great longevity ... Same thing for Kareem.

I don't think it's underrated per say, i just think there's a lot of differing opinions on when his real peak was and that's because of how many years have that argument. Some say 09, some say 13, and others pick a year from his 2nd Cavs tenure. I've always thought 2012 needs to be in the discussion more. I don't think any other player has 7 or 8 different seasons that get argued as their peak.

Isn't it crazy that he had way more dunks and shots at the rim in 2017 than in 2009? Spacing spacing spacing...

ccameron wrote:Isn't it crazy that he had way more dunks and shots at the rim in 2017 than in 2009? Spacing spacing spacing...

100 percent.

When I watch 2017 Lebron (who to be fair I think was actually quicker than Miami Lebron), no part of me thinks he's better at getting to the basket, or even really using his post game, than 2009 Lebron. Similarly, I guess to me he doesn't even look more committed to getting to the basket.

I know the narrative is that Lebron's added post game in 2012 took his game to another level and i'm sure he improved in that area and even more so since then. But (1) i'm fairly certain that notwithstanding the narrative at the time, I recall stats painting Lebron as one of the most effective post players in the league at the end of his first CLE stint and (2) as i noted above, I think improvements in his post game have been more than offset by his lost ability to attack off the bounce.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm low on Miami-present Lebron, I think he's almost always been the league's best player during that stretch, often clearly so, I guess i'm just even higher on 09 version.

ccameron wrote:Isn't it crazy that he had way more dunks and shots at the rim in 2017 than in 2009? Spacing spacing spacing...

LeBron actually had solid spacing back in 2009, especially relative to era. Mo Williams shot 37% from behind the arc despite going cold against the Magic. Delonte West had some long range ability and Ilgauskas obviously was basically known as a stretch Big at the time, except his range didn't extend all the way to the 3pt line. Boobie Gibson, Joe Smith could also shoot. The only real non-shooter in the rotation was basically Varejao, who was like a Tristan Thompson type player, and Ben Wallace who didn't get that many minutes.

His spacing was better in 2016-2018, but it's not like his 2009 team had zero space.

The problem i have with the 2009/10 version of LeBron is that he was a bit Giannis-esque, although with more finesse, better passing and a functional jumper. But that jumper was wildly inconsistent.

2009/10 LeBron lacked the half-court creativity/poise of 2017/18 LeBron. Yes, he was a far better athlete, which made up for it in most occasions, but when you're facing a defense like Boston in 2008-2010 or San Antonio with Duncan and other great wing defenders, i'd rather ride with the more experience version of LeBron than watch 2009 LeBron ram his head with straight-line drives and hope for the best.

But yeah, when LeBron's jumper was on like it was in 2009 PO, combined with his absurd athleticism, it really created one of the most unstoppable forces in league history. The problem was that his jumper conversion rate was not sustainable and when you packed or walled off the paint against him, he lacked counters.

His shots at the rim and dunks were up in 2017 compared to 2009 us all about offensive philosophy. Aka, no mid range shots. I bet if you looked at games where he shot 30 times or more in 2017 he'd have a lot more jumpers though.

I don't think spacing is the only factor.