How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer?

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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#41 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:35 am

kendogg wrote:
McBubbles wrote:One could argue the 80's was the easiest era to rack up assists due to an extremely high pace and very little 3 point shooting, or rather loads of 2 point shooting. This era has an extremely high pace too yes, but assisting a boatload of 3's would give lower assists totals than assisting an equivalent amount of mid range shots, and give MUCH lower totals than an equivalent amount of assists on shots around the basket. No assist leader has gotten up to 12 assists a game in 26 years, and Lebron last year leading the league with only 10.2 was actually one of the lowest volume assists titles since the merger, tied for 9th lowest out of 44 years available.

Granted, raw APG totals aren't exactly the best measure of passing anyway, but an interesting thing to note nonetheless.


The definition of assist has gotten much looser over the years. A lot of assists are handed out even after the recipient makes dribble moves which NEVER happened in earlier eras. The pace between the 80's and today is about the same, but the floor spacing is MUCH less. The difference between players adopting the 3-pt line during their careers and GROWING UP practicing the shot makes the game COMPLETELY different. Bird didn't get that many assists on kickouts because they simply weren't available like they are today. The paint has never been so empty in any era as today and its not even CLOSE.


Dribbling doesn't negate an assist in the NBA and it has been like that in "earlier eras". It has been like that for decades now.


It's still easier to rack up incredibly high assist totals in the 80s than it is today, hence why the APG leaders in the 80s have higher APG than the ones that play today. That's pretty basic. Lebron James was the only guy who got 10 APG or more last year, so you're basically saying no one who plays basketball any more is actually "good" enough to get 10 APG lol.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#42 » by kendogg » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:04 pm

i said "dribble moves" not dribble which are not the same thing. what qualifies as an assist has definitely gotten friendlier over the years, especially on the break. i've seen assists recorded in recent history where the ball was pushed up on the break and the lead guy slashed through 2 other defenders and it was still an assist. and that **** never happened in any games i saw in the 80's.

and speaking of the fast break, they pushed the pace more in the 80's, and while the pace in terms of PPG is the same between the 80's and today, there was a LOT less 3's obviously which made up for the difference. and its easier to get assists on a fast break where its a high percentage layup a lot of the time compared to a 3 where its 35% shot (2020 league average). a 3 pointer is worth 3 points but only 1 assist, so the assists aren't scaled up.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#43 » by KobesScarf » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:58 pm

No one. He and Magic are the top 2 passers ever
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#44 » by freethedevil » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:08 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
eason and looking at their postseason obpm numbers, Magic's slight edge (5.5 to 5.2) gets negated by the easier opponents.

Bird was the better defender between the two in those seasons. "While facing the better defensive team" Let's give Bird some credit for it then.
He was a better defender in 86 and 85. In 87 his defense in the playoffs was outright bad. Constantly out of position, unable to guard anything, giving up wide open looks both at the rim and from jumpers on gambles that almost never yielded results. Moreover he was practically useless at the rim. His rebounding is greatly inflated as the vast majority of his boards uncontested and his effiency and volume was pretty poor considering how much his teammates did for him. He was given a fairly easy diet of shots and barely had to handle the ball at all, yet his effiency dipped from 86.

I don't get the point of saying that thing when the competition is so close. This is like saying Kevin Durant's offensive performance
was better than LeBron James' in 2012 Finals because the Heat were the better defensive team.
KD's offensive performance isn't better because creation/passing matters and durant created basically nothing for his teamamtes. That aside, Lebron was clearly the best defender on the heat and if there was any doubt he squashed it by shutting down the celtics offense without bosh. The defense revolved around parish and mchale. The situations aren't really comaprable here.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#45 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:55 pm

You can't pass if you don't have the ball. You can't dominate the ball if you are not a good enough dribbler to make your defender fear your drive. The drive and kick game does not work well if nobody respects the drive. The defender will crowd the passer/shooter if the passer/shooter can't blow past the defender. Bird could fake people and dribble in any direction but Bird was not going to blow past defenders and leave them in the dust so the defender was better off attacking Bird's dribble.

Magic could drive. I think Bird was a better pure passer than Magic but the weakest part of Bird's game was driving. You can't quite ask Bird or Jokic or Turkoglu to run an offense.

LeBron isn't an elite passer but he is an elite driver. LeBron can be ball dominant. I trust Draymond Green more in a catch and pass situation than I trust LeBron. Draymond knows where the open guy is. Bird was better at catch and pass than Draymond and with Bird shooting was an option.

LeBron has his look away pass but don't be fooled by that into thinking that LeBron has great court vision.

Chris Paul had a classic drive and kick game. Young Rondo had plenty of speed and court vision but his outside shot was weak and he was nothing special at finishing his drives. This gave Rondo's defenders the advantage of just worrying about the pass. Same for Draymond only Draymond gets rid of the ball faster because he can't dribble like Rondo.

Stockton might not be a better passer than Bird but Stockton was fast and knew how to run an offense. Stockton could force his will on a defense. Nash did not have Stackton's speed. Stockton was more like a variant of Chris Paul. Stockton ran an offense better than Chris Paul and had slightly better court vision than Chris Paul but Chris Paul was a bit faster and was a better scoring threat.

Nash could not beat his man with speed like Stockton and Chris Paul. But Nash is the only guy that I confidently believe had better court vision than Bird. Nash had a better dribble than Bird. Bird had short arms and Bird's hands were further from the floor because he was tall. Hands further from the floor exposes the dribble more. Magic had long arms and often dribbled with the ball extended away from his body on the side of his body that was further away from the defenders.

Nash and the slower guys like Bird take what the defense gives rather than driving towards the basket. If you cut off Bird or Nash's path to the basket they will go somewhere else and still hurt you with the pass or shot. I think Nash was more creative than Stockton.

Bird was a true 6' 9". No in shoes nonsense. Bird really was a power forward but got defended by small forwards when playing with McHale and Maxwell who were inside scorers. On those occasions when power forwards did defend Bird, then Bird could do more damage with his dribble.

Bird was 6' 9". Probability says that a 6' 9" guy is not going to be in the top 2 with Nash at court vision. Isiah Thomas bitched that if Jordan was 6' 1" like Isiah then Jordan would be an inferior player to Isiah. I think Isiah was correct. It makes no sense that their should not be plenty of 6' 4" and under guys with better court vision than Bird an Jokic. On the other hand the smaller almost normal sized guys need to be as freakishly fast as Bird and Jokic are freakishly tall so maybe the chance of having freakish speed plus freakish court vision is not greater than the chance of having freakish height plus freakish court vision.

Did Muggsy Bogues, Jason Kidd and Mark Jackson actually have better court vision than Bird and I just could not see it because they could not pass over the top like Bird Magic and Jokic? That makes no sense because most of Bird and Magic's passes were not over the top. It is just so implausible that more of the normal sized guys would not have better court vision than Bird and Magic but other than Nash nobody is really standing out as having better court vision than Bird.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#46 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:02 pm

Some of the cheapest assists that require the least court vision are the passes to open guys at the 3 point line. But of course 3 pointers are shot at a lower percentage.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#47 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:45 pm

kendogg wrote:Mark Jackson is a great passer, and as a pure point guard its hard to compare his passing to a scoring forward like Bird. They both have great handles, and while you can argue Jackson is a better handler just because he's lower to the ground so it's harder to steal the ball, Bird was actually extremely good at navigating through traffic and his footwork is simply impeccable for someone with not a lot of explosion.............I think with the ball in their hands, Bird is a slightly more deadly passer, but Jackson had the ball in his hands more often, .


I tend to write before I go back and look at the thread. Sort rude of me.

I went back and saw your post. I never expected anybody but me to mention Mark Jackson.

I think Knicks Jackson was not slow but Pacers Jackson needed all those picks. Mark Jackson the coach got Curry, Curry's highest assists per game by giving Curry Pacer style picks and playing Curry ball dominant like Curry was Pacers Mark Jackson but with a great shot.

Mark Jackson was a great underrated passer but Bird's passing was more Amazing.

Even though Bird was not using height to pass over the top much at least Bird could see over the top. Pacers Jackson had to see through a crowd. Jackson had to see through his own man and the pick setter and the pick setter's defender.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#48 » by PistolPeteJR » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:46 pm

SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:
SNPA wrote:Totally disagree. James has gotten a lot better, a lot. This final version of James really is a great passer. Most of his career though he was mainly a drive and kick player that could lead the break. Bulldozing your way to the rim and throwing it to where the help comes from is what it is, and that isn’t in the Magic/Bird passing stratosphere.

Bird has better court vision, is more dynamic and has a more natural feel. You can tell the difference in touch passes.

LeBron was fantastic passer right from the beginning of his journey.

I agree that Bird seems to have more natural feel, but at the same time James makes more advanced passes from techical standpoint and his passes are usually more accurate.

You are remarkably low on Bird in general. Why is that?


He only answers if you answer why you’re remarkably low on James ;)
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#49 » by SNPA » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:57 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:
SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:LeBron was fantastic passer right from the beginning of his journey.

I agree that Bird seems to have more natural feel, but at the same time James makes more advanced passes from techical standpoint and his passes are usually more accurate.

You are remarkably low on Bird in general. Why is that?


He only answers if you answer why you’re remarkably low on James ;)

My top tier has three players. James is in my second tier with a few others (3-5), it fluctuates but James remains solid in it. Not sure that can be called low on James. I’m not one of these James is GOAT and perfect people, but I’m not low on him either.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#50 » by PistolPeteJR » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:59 pm

SNPA wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
SNPA wrote:You are remarkably low on Bird in general. Why is that?


He only answers if you answer why you’re remarkably low on James ;)

My top tier has three players. James is in my second tier with a few others (3-5), it fluctuates but James remains solid in it. Not sure that can be called low on James. I’m not one of these James is GOAT and perfect people, but I’m not low on him either.


Don’t think I ever heard anyone call him perfect.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#51 » by SNPA » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:00 am

PistolPeteJR wrote:
SNPA wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
He only answers if you answer why you’re remarkably low on James ;)

My top tier has three players. James is in my second tier with a few others (3-5), it fluctuates but James remains solid in it. Not sure that can be called low on James. I’m not one of these James is GOAT and perfect people, but I’m not low on him either.


Don’t think I ever heard anyone call him perfect.

Bit of hyperbole. :D
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#52 » by McBubbles » Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:45 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:You can't pass if you don't have the ball. You can't dominate the ball if you are not a good enough dribbler to make your defender fear your drive. The drive and kick game does not work well if nobody respects the drive. The defender will crowd the passer/shooter if the passer/shooter can't blow past the defender. Bird could fake people and dribble in any direction but Bird was not going to blow past defenders and leave them in the dust so the defender was better off attacking Bird's dribble.

Magic could drive. I think Bird was a better pure passer than Magic but the weakest part of Bird's game was driving. You can't quite ask Bird or Jokic or Turkoglu to run an offense.

LeBron isn't an elite passer but he is an elite driver. LeBron can be ball dominant. I trust Draymond Green more in a catch and pass situation than I trust LeBron. Draymond knows where the open guy is. Bird was better at catch and pass than Draymond and with Bird shooting was an option.

LeBron has his look away pass but don't be fooled by that into thinking that LeBron has great court vision.

Chris Paul had a classic drive and kick game. Young Rondo had plenty of speed and court vision but his outside shot was weak and he was nothing special at finishing his drives. This gave Rondo's defenders the advantage of just worrying about the pass. Same for Draymond only Draymond gets rid of the ball faster because he can't dribble like Rondo.

Stockton might not be a better passer than Bird but Stockton was fast and knew how to run an offense. Stockton could force his will on a defense. Nash did not have Stackton's speed. Stockton was more like a variant of Chris Paul. Stockton ran an offense better than Chris Paul and had slightly better court vision than Chris Paul but Chris Paul was a bit faster and was a better scoring threat.

Nash could not beat his man with speed like Stockton and Chris Paul. But Nash is the only guy that I confidently believe had better court vision than Bird. Nash had a better dribble than Bird. Bird had short arms and Bird's hands were further from the floor because he was tall. Hands further from the floor exposes the dribble more. Magic had long arms and often dribbled with the ball extended away from his body on the side of his body that was further away from the defenders.

Nash and the slower guys like Bird take what the defense gives rather than driving towards the basket. If you cut off Bird or Nash's path to the basket they will go somewhere else and still hurt you with the pass or shot. I think Nash was more creative than Stockton.

Bird was a true 6' 9". No in shoes nonsense. Bird really was a power forward but got defended by small forwards when playing with McHale and Maxwell who were inside scorers. On those occasions when power forwards did defend Bird, then Bird could do more damage with his dribble.

Bird was 6' 9". Probability says that a 6' 9" guy is not going to be in the top 2 with Nash at court vision. Isiah Thomas bitched that if Jordan was 6' 1" like Isiah then Jordan would be an inferior player to Isiah. I think Isiah was correct. It makes no sense that their should not be plenty of 6' 4" and under guys with better court vision than Bird an Jokic. On the other hand the smaller almost normal sized guys need to be as freakishly fast as Bird and Jokic are freakishly tall so maybe the chance of having freakish speed plus freakish court vision is not greater than the chance of having freakish height plus freakish court vision.

Did Muggsy Bogues, Jason Kidd and Mark Jackson actually have better court vision than Bird and I just could not see it because they could not pass over the top like Bird Magic and Jokic? That makes no sense because most of Bird and Magic's passes were not over the top. It is just so implausible that more of the normal sized guys would not have better court vision than Bird and Magic but other than Nash nobody is really standing out as having better court vision than Bird.


My mouth is actually agape, no homo. You don't think Lebron is an elite passer, you don't think he has great court vision, you think don't think he's a better **** passer than Draymond Green, and you don't even think Lebron knows where the open man is? **** what?

I don't even know how to refute this. It's like trying to correct someone adamantly saying Shaq wasn't very strong, or MJ couldn't jump very high. I assume you've seen Lebron's passing highlights, so that wouldn't be helpful.

But ignoring that, why do people think being a more impressive passer makes you a better passer? This is the same argument people use to call Kobe the GOAT scorer just repackaged. To my knowledge a drive and kick initiated pass isn't any less valuable than a ball fake, eye fake, off ball between the legs tip pass. So no one should really care if it's more difficult for Nash or Bird to do the same thing that Paul or Lebron do tbh.

And to be clear, I actually do think Nash is a top 2 passer of all time, and I think I think that Bird is a better passer than Lebron, but these aren't the arguments for it. Lebron isn't as good a passer as Draymond Green... what the ****.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#53 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:28 pm

Sometimes I know excatly where LeBron's look away pass is going to go before he makes the pass because LeBron is so blatantly looking away that he is almost telegraphing his pass.

LeBron has been so ball dominant. Maybe comparing LeBron to Draymond in a quick passing offense isn't fair because LeBron did not play in that style of offense. But LeBron is definitely an overrated passer. He better rack up the assists when he has the ball so much. Maybe I am stuck in LeBron's past. I did not see enough of last year's LeBron.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#54 » by McBubbles » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:48 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Sometimes I know excatly where LeBron's look away pass is going to go before he makes the pass because LeBron is so blatantly looking away that he is almost telegraphing his pass.

LeBron has been so ball dominant. Maybe comparing LeBron to Draymond in a quick passing offense isn't fair because LeBron did not play in that style of offense. But LeBron is definitely an overrated passer. He better rack up the assists when he has the ball so much. Maybe I am stuck in LeBron's past. I did not see enough of last year's LeBron.


1. You have a helicopter view of the court and every single player on it, the defender guarding him doesn't, so that's irrelevant...

2. This is a sentiment that often gets expressed about Lebron, he only gets assists because he's super ball dominant. This idea is bull. He is routinely below most point guards in terms of ball dominance and relatively speaking, just has a disproportionally high assist total. He's no more ball dominant than any other point.

2014 - 26th in time of possession, 14th in assists.
2015 - 14th in time of possession (Kyrie was 13th mind you), 8th in assists.
2016 - 23rd in time of possession, 10th in assist.
2017 - 15th in time of possession (Kyrie was 14th), 6th in assists.
2018 - 8th in time of possession, 3rd in assists.
2019 - 12th in time or possession, 4th in assists.
2020 - 6th in time or possession, 1st in assists.

So he's only been top 10 in terms of ball dominance twice, and has only been OUT of the top 10 in terms of assists once. Your comment about being stuck in his past also makes no sense, because he was even less ball dominant before than he was now.

It gets even worse if you use average seconds per touch or average dribble per touch. The year in which Lebron was assist leader he wasn't top 20 in seconds per touch and wasn't even top 40 in average dribble per touch. Some years he wasn't even top 50 or 60 respectively.

In short, your observations about Lebron being disproportionally ball dominant are incorrect, regardless of what measure you want to use.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#55 » by SNPA » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:32 pm

McBubbles wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Sometimes I know excatly where LeBron's look away pass is going to go before he makes the pass because LeBron is so blatantly looking away that he is almost telegraphing his pass.

LeBron has been so ball dominant. Maybe comparing LeBron to Draymond in a quick passing offense isn't fair because LeBron did not play in that style of offense. But LeBron is definitely an overrated passer. He better rack up the assists when he has the ball so much. Maybe I am stuck in LeBron's past. I did not see enough of last year's LeBron.


1. You have a helicopter view of the court and every single player on it, the defender guarding him doesn't, so that's irrelevant...

2. This is a sentiment that often gets expressed about Lebron, he only gets assists because he's super ball dominant. This idea is bull. He is routinely below most point guards in terms of ball dominance and relatively speaking, just has a disproportionally high assist total. He's no more ball dominant than any other point.

2014 - 26th in time of possession, 14th in assists.
2015 - 14th in time of possession (Kyrie was 13th mind you), 8th in assists.
2016 - 23rd in time of possession, 10th in assist.
2017 - 15th in time of possession (Kyrie was 14th), 6th in assists.
2018 - 8th in time of possession, 3rd in assists.
2019 - 12th in time or possession, 4th in assists.
2020 - 6th in time or possession, 1st in assists.

So he's only been top 10 in terms of ball dominance twice, and has only been OUT of the top 10 in terms of assists once. Your comment about being stuck in his past also makes no sense, because he was even less ball dominant before than he was now.

It gets even worse if you use average seconds per touch or average dribble per touch. The year in which Lebron was assist leader he wasn't top 20 in seconds per touch and wasn't even top 40 in average dribble per touch. Some years he wasn't even top 50 or 60 respectively.

In short, your observations about Lebron being disproportionally ball dominant are incorrect, regardless of what measure you want to use.


This doesn’t help the LeBron argument in this thread against Bird. So he slightly out performs his rank in terms of time of possession, that’s nothing compared to Bird who played off ball. Also, James often plays with another point on the floor (because he doesn’t want to defend PG’s), so he lets that guy dribble up sometimes before he takes over the offense. There goes most of that variant.

And the observation that his look aways are a bit telegraphed is true. I’ve noticed that for years, his no look passes are not even close to the universe of Bird’s.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#56 » by McBubbles » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:23 pm

SNPA wrote:
McBubbles wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Sometimes I know excatly where LeBron's look away pass is going to go before he makes the pass because LeBron is so blatantly looking away that he is almost telegraphing his pass.

LeBron has been so ball dominant. Maybe comparing LeBron to Draymond in a quick passing offense isn't fair because LeBron did not play in that style of offense. But LeBron is definitely an overrated passer. He better rack up the assists when he has the ball so much. Maybe I am stuck in LeBron's past. I did not see enough of last year's LeBron.


1. You have a helicopter view of the court and every single player on it, the defender guarding him doesn't, so that's irrelevant...

2. This is a sentiment that often gets expressed about Lebron, he only gets assists because he's super ball dominant. This idea is bull. He is routinely below most point guards in terms of ball dominance and relatively speaking, just has a disproportionally high assist total. He's no more ball dominant than any other point.

2014 - 26th in time of possession, 14th in assists.
2015 - 14th in time of possession (Kyrie was 13th mind you), 8th in assists.
2016 - 23rd in time of possession, 10th in assist.
2017 - 15th in time of possession (Kyrie was 14th), 6th in assists.
2018 - 8th in time of possession, 3rd in assists.
2019 - 12th in time or possession, 4th in assists.
2020 - 6th in time or possession, 1st in assists.

So he's only been top 10 in terms of ball dominance twice, and has only been OUT of the top 10 in terms of assists once. Your comment about being stuck in his past also makes no sense, because he was even less ball dominant before than he was now.

It gets even worse if you use average seconds per touch or average dribble per touch. The year in which Lebron was assist leader he wasn't top 20 in seconds per touch and wasn't even top 40 in average dribble per touch. Some years he wasn't even top 50 or 60 respectively.

In short, your observations about Lebron being disproportionally ball dominant are incorrect, regardless of what measure you want to use.


This doesn’t help the LeBron argument in this thread against Bird. So he slightly out performs his rank in terms of time of possession, that’s nothing compared to Bird who played off ball. Also, James often plays with another point on the floor (because he doesn’t want to defend PG’s), so he lets that guy dribble up sometimes before he takes over the offense. There goes most of that variant.

And the observation that his look aways are a bit telegraphed is true. I’ve noticed that for years, his no look passes are not even close to the universe of Bird’s.


1. At this point in time I think Bird is a better passer than Lebron, so lets get that out of the way.

2. I wasn't using these numbers to compare Lebron to Bird. I wouldn't make a comparison between two players with only one data set. I was using these numbers to address the fact that the only reason Lebron gets a high number of assists is because he's disproportionately ball dominant compared to other players. That's false.

3. Why're you mentioning the fact that he often gives the ball to a point guard as a counterpoint? The reason I posted those was to show he wasn't extremely ball dominant, so your counter is just saying "Lebron isn't that ball dominant because he decides not to be ball dominant and give other players the ball. If he actively chose to be more ball dominant, then he'd have similar numbers to other point guards, so that explains that variant", to which I say duh. Besides, in the 2020 RS he was predominantly the point guard and still wasn't top 5 in time of possession, top 20 in seconds per touch or top 40 in dribbles per touch, so it doesn't entirely explain it away regardless even when he's playing at the PG position.
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#57 » by GYK » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:38 pm

So many point guards. He’s elite but his skill coming from a non point position makes him overrated. Greatest ever in a league that had Magic/Paul/Nash/Stockton/Kidd etc. insane.
Best forward passer is a better argument and I would go 2nd to Lebron(who also went a career being misclaimed as the leagues best passer when he faced better passers often. As if his highlight meant anything to guys who built careers on that very play). Both might be behind Joker as the best non point passers, but he too behind a ton of points. Being at a position it’s not expected of doesn’t make you better(Westbrook isn’t the GOAT rebounder nor Wade the best shot blocker).
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#58 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:04 am

McBubbles wrote:
So he's only been top 10 in terms of ball dominance twice, and has only been OUT of the top 10 in terms of assists once.


Itgets even worse if you use average seconds per touch or average dribble per touch..


What do assists measure? What is a great passer? Are they the same?

The assist standard changed some over the decades. 1960s and to a degree 1980s seemed to be did you get your teammate an easy score. Now it is more like did you pass the ball to a guy that scored.

Bird was great at 2 things, 1 seeing everything, 2 knowing what was going to happen before it happened.

LeBron's scoring ability on drives seems to me to be the main reason his assists are so high but of course LeBron sees the open people well. LeBron sucks defenders to him which creates open people. But is creating open people with your scoring gravity part of passing?

Dennis Johnson turned himself into a great floor general. Johnson had a great coach's understanding of the game. Johson would make the right play, and throw the correct type of pass leading his teammate correctly, unless Johnson was pressured. Johnson's passes were closer to being thought out than to being reactions. Once Johnson began his drive he was relatively blind in terms of seeing open people compaired to Ainge. Johnson needed to know what he was doing before he did it. When Johnson saw a path to the rim he got to the rim quickly but if that path got cut off he was very good at seeing the other oportunities like passing to an open man.

Ainge had a very slow drive to the basket by NBA standards but Ainge could adjust to changes and react and find the open man.

LeBron floor generalship is fine except that LeBron waiting for the right time to drive or something tended to have LeBron's teammates not move a lot without the ball. They were watching LeBron a lot. They seemed to be waiting for LeBron to suck in help defenders.

My issue with Draymond is something else. Steph and Klay get credit for Draymond's passes. Steph and Klay and the chaos they create in defenses deserve a lot of credit for Draymond's passes but Draymond is actually a great passer. Draymond's time of possesion per possession is very low. Draymond's ability to see everything is very good but he looks so wrong and so unlike what creators normally look like the people don't believe their own eyes and are slow to realizes that Draymond's passes are not fluke accident passes that anybody could make.
McBubbles
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#59 » by McBubbles » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:35 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
McBubbles wrote:
So he's only been top 10 in terms of ball dominance twice, and has only been OUT of the top 10 in terms of assists once.


Itgets even worse if you use average seconds per touch or average dribble per touch..


What do assists measure? What is a great passer? Are they the same?

The assist standard changed some over the decades. 1960s and to a degree 1980s seemed to be did you get your teammate an easy score. Now it is more like did you pass the ball to a guy that scored.

Bird was great at 2 things, 1 seeing everything, 2 knowing what was going to happen before it happened.

LeBron's scoring ability on drives seems to me to be the main reason his assists are so high but of course LeBron sees the open people well. LeBron sucks defenders to him which creates open people. But is creating open people with your scoring gravity part of passing?

Dennis Johnson turned himself into a great floor general. Johnson had a great coach's understanding of the game. Johson would make the right play, and throwo


You - Lebron isn't that good of a passer, he only gets a lot of assists because he's ball dominant. Me - That's false, he's not that ball dominant and still gets a lot of assists. You - Meh, getting a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean you're a good passer.
If you didn't think assists were a useful measure of passing then why did you bring them up in the first place? Furthermore, despite the fact you just indicated that getting a lot of assists doesn't automatically mean you're a good passer, you then say that it's easier to get assists now than it was before because of unsubstantiated differences in officiating. So you DO think assists matter and are an indicator of good playmaking in Birds era but not in Lebron's era. How convenient.

Again, I think that Bird is a better passer than Lebron, but your argumentation is awful man. You also still haven't said anything to support why you think Lebron is an inferior passer with inferior court vision to Draymond Green besides his lookaway passes being predictable.
SinceGatlingWasARookie
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Re: How many players have a reasonable case over Bird as a passer? 

Post#60 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:51 am

McBubbles wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
McBubbles wrote:
So he's only been top 10 in terms of ball dominance twice, and has only been OUT of the top 10 in terms of assists once.


Itgets even worse if you use average seconds per touch or average dribble per touch..


What do assists measure? What is a great passer? Are they the same?

The assist standard changed some over the decades. 1960s and to a degree 1980s seemed to be did you get your teammate an easy score. Now it is more like did you pass the ball to a guy that scored.

Bird was great at 2 things, 1 seeing everything, 2 knowing what was going to happen before it happened.

LeBron's scoring ability on drives seems to me to be the main reason his assists are so high but of course LeBron sees the open people well. LeBron sucks defenders to him which creates open people. But is creating open people with your scoring gravity part of passing?

Dennis Johnson turned himself into a great floor general. Johnson had a great coach's understanding of the game. Johson would make the right play, and throwo


You - Lebron isn't that good of a passer, he only gets a lot of assists because he's ball dominant. Me - That's false, he's not that ball dominant and still gets a lot of assists. You - Meh, getting a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean you're a good passer.
If you didn't think assists were a useful measure of passing then why did you bring them up in the first place? Furthermore, despite the fact you just indicated that getting a lot of assists doesn't automatically mean you're a good passer, you then say that it's easier to get assists now than it was before because of unsubstantiated differences in officiating. So you DO think assists matter and are an indicator of good playmaking in Birds era but not in Lebron's era. How convenient.

Again, I think that Bird is a better passer than Lebron, but your argumentation is awful man. You also still haven't said anything to support why you think Lebron is an inferior passer with inferior court vision to Draymond Green besides his lookaway passes being predictable.


My crappy Ipad browser and realgm's advertisements don't get along well so sometimes i submit before finishing so that the page dies not refresh and lose what I wrote.

It isn't that I don't appreciate LeBron; it is just that I react to decades of him being overrated. LeBron is a much better scorer than Magic but part of LeBron's assist numbers are part of how the offense is designed because the offense wants to maximize what it can get from the greatness of LeBron the scorer. LeBron''s scoring ability sets up his passing and his scoring ability and passing is why he has the high time of possession.

A couple years ago I was checking LeBron and Draymond's assists against posession stats. Draymond is the non-Rondo, Chris Paul, LeBron. Neither Draymond nor LeBron have the ball a lot in the back court or the first 6 seconds of offense. In the 2016 finals sometimes LeBron was resting with the ball. LeBron was so central do everything that there was a risk of wearing LeBron down over 48 minutes so they seemed to be shortening the game by having LeBron just stand with the ball before initiating his dribble. This burned some shot clock but enabled LeBron to play a higher percentage of the game.

Draymond's passing is as underrated as LeBron's is overrated. But if LeBron's scoring ability is a legitmate part of the definition of passing then LeBron's passing is not so overrated. It depends on how you define passing.

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