Kevin Durant or Lebron James?

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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#141 » by Greyhound » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:28 am

70sFan wrote:
Dupp wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


Tbh lebrons d in the 17 finals was really bad and KDs was decent ( with way more hep). Everything either side of that series basically i agree.

It's easier to defend when you have so much help on both sides of the ball. Cavs basically decided to forget about defense and try to outscore GSW, which wasn't possible anyway.

Overall KD was never great defender, James showed a lot of times that he could be elite defensively at various stages of his career.

I was just about to post this exact same response.

Thank you for saving me the time sir.

LeBron’s defense in those two season’s was poor by his standards, but I think people have begun to overstate how bad.

No wing player with LeBron’s offensive load was going to look good defensively on those god awfully poor defensive Cavaliers teams. It would have been wasted energy for LeBron and he realized that.

Individually Durant has never been a better defender than LeBron, ever.
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Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#142 » by Greyhound » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:50 am

feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Gooner wrote:KD proved in the finals that he was better. I don't know what LeBron did better than him at that point.

Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

Durant played with an excellent defensive supporting cast and had less load to carry on offense. He could allocate energy towards defense that LeBron did not have the luxury of doing.

LeBron played with horrible defensive casts those two seasons. He could have played the best defense he could’ve possibly played and the defensive breakdowns would’ve still come from somewhere else in the lineup.

The end result would’ve been wasted effort that would’ve had a negative collateral affect on the ultimate goal of securing wins.

...

This season is an interesting one.

LeBron plays on the best defensive team in the league and his defensive numbers look excellent. Durrant on the other hand plays on one of the worst defensive teams in the league and his defensive numbers don’t look so great.

Yet somehow, this perception of LeBron and Durant being similar on the defensive end still persists. It’s absolute proof that old narratives die hard.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#143 » by Dupp » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:24 am

Greyhound wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dupp wrote:
Tbh lebrons d in the 17 finals was really bad and KDs was decent ( with way more hep). Everything either side of that series basically i agree.

It's easier to defend when you have so much help on both sides of the ball. Cavs basically decided to forget about defense and try to outscore GSW, which wasn't possible anyway.

Overall KD was never great defender, James showed a lot of times that he could be elite defensively at various stages of his career.

I was just about to post this exact same response.

Thank you for saving me the time sir.

LeBron’s defense in those two season’s was poor by his standards, but I think people have begun to overstate how bad.

No wing player with LeBron’s offensive load was going to look good defensively on those god awfully poor defensive Cavaliers teams. It would have been wasted energy for LeBron and he realized that.

Individually Durant has never been a better defender than LeBron, ever.



None of what either of you said really goes against what I said though. Lebron just was terrible defensively in the 17 finals. That season lebron wasn’t even bad or average he was really really good defensively.

His load was no more than the finals either side of 2017. He just had a terrible defensive series. A lot of that was game plan and stuff but still it was not good.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#144 » by freethedevil » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:37 am

Dupp wrote:
Greyhound wrote:
70sFan wrote:It's easier to defend when you have so much help on both sides of the ball. Cavs basically decided to forget about defense and try to outscore GSW, which wasn't possible anyway.

Overall KD was never great defender, James showed a lot of times that he could be elite defensively at various stages of his career.

I was just about to post this exact same response.

Thank you for saving me the time sir.

LeBron’s defense in those two season’s was poor by his standards, but I think people have begun to overstate how bad.

No wing player with LeBron’s offensive load was going to look good defensively on those god awfully poor defensive Cavaliers teams. It would have been wasted energy for LeBron and he realized that.

Individually Durant has never been a better defender than LeBron, ever.



None of what either of you said really goes against what I said though. Lebron just was terrible defensively in the 17 finals. That season lebron wasn’t even bad or average he was really really good defensively.

His load was no more than the finals either side of 2017. He just had a terrible defensive series. A lot of that was game plan and stuff but still it was not good.

I mean, Lebron was a clear positive defensively in the regular season and ramped it up fo the first three rounds. What are you basing him being terrible defensively in the finals off? His main assignment was cutting off curry and greeen right?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#145 » by feyki » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:53 pm

Greyhound wrote:
feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

Durant played with an excellent defensive supporting cast and had less load to carry on offense. He could allocate energy towards defense that LeBron did not have the luxury of doing.

LeBron played with horrible defensive casts those two seasons. He could have played the best defense he could’ve possibly played and the defensive breakdowns would’ve still come from somewhere else in the lineup.

The end result would’ve been wasted effort that would’ve had a negative collateral affect on the ultimate goal of securing wins.

...

This season is an interesting one.

LeBron plays on the best defensive team in the league and his defensive numbers look excellent. Durrant on the other hand plays on one of the worst defensive teams in the league and his defensive numbers don’t look so great.

Yet somehow, this perception of LeBron and Durant being similar on the defensive end still persists. It’s absolute proof that old narratives die hard.


His usages bumped to %29 in GSW from %31 in OKC and his block rates jumped almost 2x. I don't think %2 usage rate could be that much effect. So, I disagree with that arguement.

Actually, Lebron's this year is arguably the worst defensive year of his career, individually.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#146 » by JN61 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:03 am

I Take Durant. He showed clutchness and rising under pressure we haven't seen from LeBron.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#147 » by GYK » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:27 am

Nobodies defense in those Durant Dubs vs Cavs finals was anything special. Those were the two greatest finals offenses of all time. If the Cavs faced anyone else they probably smash them.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#148 » by Bayaz » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:03 am

After seeing how he's returned from what is generally a career ending injury, the answer is clearly Durant.

If you want a player that will fill up the stat sheet en route to making your team a sure fire title contender? Go with LeBron. However, if you want an ATG team or potential dynasty, you take Durant & you don't look back. LBJ can't pass, initiate an offense, or control the pace of play well enough to be valued over Durant's ability to play at an ATG level without diminishing, and/or taking away from other All NBA caliber players.

It doesn't matter the context, Durant's unique(literal one of one) combination of size, skill, and shooting ability makes it so easy for him to score, you can pretty much slot him on any team and they'll be competitive simply by virtue of him being indefensible. Need proof? Look at those poorly constructed OKC teams, where he played without spacing, shooters, and a poor decision maker at PG for the majority of his tenure. They reached the WCF Finals or Finals every year he was healthy until he left for GS, and haven't been relevant since.

And what did he do with GS? Only elevate them to arguably the greatest team of all time, rivaled only by Jordan's Bulls, Shaq & Kobe's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, & Showtime. At their height, the Warriors were far and away better than any team LeBron's been featured on, regardless of how much input he's had on rosters, or how many HoF teammates he's played with. Despite it all, he's never been able to lead a team to a level of consistent dominance that we witnessed from GS.

Before I receive the usual rebuttals, I'll address them now:

- GS won before Durant, but only because Kyrie & Love were hurt in 14-15. Had they played in series it's reasonable to assume Cleveland would've beaten them, given they did so the very next season.

- After going 73-9 in the regular season, 15-16 Warriors limped through the playoffs, losing nine games in the total before ultimately losing the finals. The 17-18 Warriors lost one playoff game.

- If you put LBJ on that GS in place of Durant, he'd take the ball away from Draymond & Steph, change the style of play, etc. They'd be a completely different team than they were with Durant.

- Durant was clearly GS's best scoring option when games slowed down & defenses got tighter in the post season, which is why they pursued him to begin with.


Now he's doing it again with Brooklyn, a franchise that has never won an NBA title, with teammates who are allegedly cancerous & problematic. So much so, that pundits, analyst, and fans everywhere predicted they'd implode upon construction. So much for that, eh?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#149 » by dcstanley » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:51 am

Those OKC teams were constructed in a way that would allow KD to focus on his only elite skill- scoring. They had one of the best guards in the league to completely alleviate KD of the playmaking burden and elite defensive players to allow KD to put forth minimal defensive effort. The Thunder flamed out in the first round the season Westbrook was injured so you can call him a poor decision maker but he was as (or perhaps more) important to OKC's success as Durant. To corroborate this, look at Westbrook and Durant's impact metrics between 2012-2016. Westbrook was more impactful in both the 2014 playoffs and the 2016 playoffs. KD's efficiency and overall impact dropped considerably from the regular season to the postseason in those years.

Durant in OKC after 2012:
29.1 pts per game, 39.3 pts per 100, 22.79 tsa per game, 0.638 ts in regular season games (+10.0 rts)
29.4 pts per game, 35.8 pts per 100, 26.26 tsa per game, 0.561 ts in playoff games (+2.5 rts)


Lebron has never been on a team as great as the Warriors because he never joined a 73-9 team in his prime. It's really as simple as that. How many teams has Lebron been on that could contend for a conference championship without him? Maybe the 2010-2011 Heat and even that is a little murky because of how top heavy that team was. The Warriors won 67 games and 73 games in back to back seasons and would have been back to back champions if it weren't for inopportune injuries and suspensions.

The Heat had dominant stretches of basketball but injuries to Wade and Bosh shortened their prime and limited the team's ceiling. Do you really believe the Heat wouldn't be one of the most dominant teams of all time if prime Lebron was able to play with say 2006-2009 Wade and Bosh with support pieces akin to Klay Thompson and Iguodala? The talent advantage those Warriors teams had is really second to none.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#150 » by Bayaz » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:00 am

dcstanley wrote:Those OKC teams were constructed in a way that would allow KD to focus on his only elite skill- scoring.


They were poorly constructed, featuring two offensive negatives in their starting rotation: Perkins, Roberson. They were also poorly coached, lacked spacing/shooters, and allowed a poor decision maker to dominate the ball. How was that ideal for Durant?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#151 » by McBubbles » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:02 pm

Bayaz wrote:
dcstanley wrote:Those OKC teams were constructed in a way that would allow KD to focus on his only elite skill- scoring.


They were poorly constructed, featuring two offensive negatives in their starting rotation: Perkins, Roberson. They were also poorly coached, lacked spacing/shooters, and allowed a poor decision maker to dominate the ball. How was that ideal for Durant?


Okeh finally in the appropriate thread. You said that you think KD has been better than LeBron every year since 2014. Could you give a year by year breakdown as to why you think this, or would that be too much to ask?

That sounded sarcastic but it wasn't meant to be, genuinely curious. I don't see any arguments for 15, 16 or 20 in KD's favour, which I feel are somewhat obvious and don't see an argument for LeBron in 19 over KD, again, somewhat obviously.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#152 » by Bayaz » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:08 pm

McBubbles wrote:Okeh finally in the appropriate thread. You said that you think KD has been better than LeBron every year since 2014. Could you give a year by year breakdown as to why you think this, or would that be too much to ask?

That sounded sarcastic but it wasn't meant to be, genuinely curious. I don't see any arguments for 15, 16 or 20 in KD's favour, which I feel are somewhat obvious and don't see an argument for LeBron in 19 over KD, again, somewhat obviously.


Would it be too much for your to address my original argument before asking me to present another?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#153 » by McBubbles » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:26 pm

Bayaz wrote:
McBubbles wrote:Okeh finally in the appropriate thread. You said that you think KD has been better than LeBron every year since 2014. Could you give a year by year breakdown as to why you think this, or would that be too much to ask?

That sounded sarcastic but it wasn't meant to be, genuinely curious. I don't see any arguments for 15, 16 or 20 in KD's favour, which I feel are somewhat obvious and don't see an argument for LeBron in 19 over KD, again, somewhat obviously.


Which argument imparticular?

Would it be too much for your to address my original argument before asking me to present another?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#154 » by Bayaz » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:29 pm

McBubbles wrote:
Bayaz wrote:
McBubbles wrote:Okeh finally in the appropriate thread. You said that you think KD has been better than LeBron every year since 2014. Could you give a year by year breakdown as to why you think this, or would that be too much to ask?

That sounded sarcastic but it wasn't meant to be, genuinely curious. I don't see any arguments for 15, 16 or 20 in KD's favour, which I feel are somewhat obvious and don't see an argument for LeBron in 19 over KD, again, somewhat obviously.


Which argument imparticular?

Would it be too much for your to address my original argument before asking me to present another?


Scroll up.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#155 » by McBubbles » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:10 am

Bayaz wrote:After seeing how he's returned from what is generally a career ending injury, the answer is clearly Durant.

This is a ridiculously long reply, at least by my standards.

Spoiler:
If you want a player that will fill up the stat sheet en route to making your team a sure fire title contender? Go with LeBron. However, if you want an ATG team or potential dynasty, you take Durant & you don't look back.


- Lebron in 2013 won 66 games whilst winning 27 games straight before Wade got injured again. How is that not an ATG team? If your argument is they're not ATG cuz they went 16-7, then by that logic the 67 and 66 win 2000 Lakers and 08 Celtics respectively aren't ATG teams either, as they had worse post season records than the Heat.

LBJ can't pass, initiate an offense, or control the pace of play well enough to be valued over Durant's ability to play at an ATG level without diminishing, and/or taking away from other All NBA caliber players.


- I've addressed this before. Lebron ran two top 10 playoff offences of all time in 2016 and 17, with 2017 actually being the best ever. Even relative to the defences they played, it was one of the best offences ever. KD despite having a better team whilst in GS, never led an offence as good as LBJ's best. The 2018 and 19 Warriors weren't even better than the 2016 Cavaliers on offence, despite the fact Love got concussed and averaged a terrible 9 points on 40TS% or something sad during the finals. In other words, KD being a better fit with other All NBA players has never tangibly shown it leads to better offensive results then Lebron marginalizing other players. So saying KD's portability on offence makes him better than LBJ because he can't initiate an offence good enough to make him more valuable than Durant is literally, factually incorrect.

- Furthermore, why do you act as if Lebron has never changed his style for others? Lebron did relinquish his ball handling role somewhat to run a ridiculously slow paced (between 86-89 pace, I don't remember off the top of my head) pass heavy offence and let Wade and Chalmers of all people make plays, with Lebron being 26th in time of possession of the ball in the RS and averaging a career low 4.8 assists per game in 2014 PS. This was also whilst becoming on of the best off ball players in the league from 12-14 due to his great off ball cutting and catch and shooting. Or when Lebron let Kyrie take more shots than him, AND hold the ball for longer than him in 2017? You and several others seem to imply that Lebron in no circumstances ever has shared the ball or adapted to others playstyle.

It doesn't matter the context, Durant's unique(literal one of one) combination of size, skill, and shooting ability makes it so easy for him to score, you can pretty much slot him on any team and they'll be competitive simply by virtue of him being indefensible. Need proof? Look at those poorly constructed OKC teams, where he played without spacing, shooters, and a poor decision maker at PG for the majority of his tenure. They reached the WCF Finals or Finals every year he was healthy until he left for GS, and haven't been relevant since.


Lebron's unique (literal one of one) combination of size, skill and playmaking makes it so easy for him to win, you can pretty much slot him on any team and they're be competitive simply by virtue of him being a monster. Need proof? Look at those poorly constructed Heat teams, where in 2012 he played without spacing, shooters and no starting **** centre and yet beat the #1 ranked defence in the league in the ECF and won a championship all whilst shooting like 20% from three in the playoffs lol. If you haven't noticed, this applies to Lebron to a greater extent than it does KD, so it's a very strange argument to make in KD's favour. KD makes any team competitive? So does Lebron, he's made 10 finals appearances to KD's 4. KD's teams haven't been relevant since he left? Nor were Lebron's, who had back to back 60+ win seasons in 09 and 10 with the Cavs who were then one of the worst teams in the league for 4 years straight after he left, and then again post 2018, unlike KD's who made the playoffs without him for 3 years straight whilst in a harder conference. Lebron's teams have actually been much worse without Lebron than KD's teams have been without him, so again this argument doesn't help KD at all.

It doesn't matter the context, Durant's unique(literal one of one) combination of size, skill, and shooting ability makes it so easy for him to score, you can pretty much slot him on any team and they'll be competitive simply by virtue of him being indefensible.


- KD is only undefendable (I think indefensible means something else) in the regular season. His efficiency dips a lot in the post season on a regular basis, and he's much more human. I'm mainly going to address his scoring but will dabble in the "being better than Lebron since 14" thing too.

KD
2010 = -.108TS, .499TS% in PS, huge dip. No context - **** terrible. Context - First playoff series ever against the eventual NBA champions, with the 4th ranked defensive rating. Not good by any means, but not gonna penalize him, neutral.

2011 = -.006TS, .582TS% in PS, tiny dip. No context - good. Context - tiny dip against the 16th, 8th and 9th defences, pretty good.

2012 = +.022TS, .632TS% in PS, sizable gain. No context - excellent. Context - sizable gain against the 8th, 13th, 10th, and 4th best defence in the league. Excellent.

2013 = -.073TS, .574TS% in PS, big dip. No context - bad. Context - Westbrook was injured and they faced the 16th and 2nd best D in the league, plus vKD's volume increased massively from the regular season to post season. Meh, nothing notable imo.

2014 = -.065TS, .570TS% in PS, big dip. No context - bad. Context - Played against the 7th, 9th and 3rd best defence in the league, which is tough but not touch enough to justify such a huge drop especially after an MVP season and with Westbrook playing, bad.

2016 = -.092TS, .542TS% in PS, huge dip. No context - **** terrible.. Context - They played the 17th, 1st and 5th best defensive teams in the post season. A dip so massive is unacceptable for a player that's supposedly indefensible and on that good of a team. **** terrible.


2017 = +.030TS, .686TS% in PS sizable gain. Context - excellent. Context - Played the 24th, 3rd, 1st and 21st defence, whilst being on the most spaced out and spread, most talented team of all time, often facing single coverage due to Curry being out, and with the 1st defence having it's B2B DPOY out. Nothing notable.

2018 = -.036, .606TS% in PS sizable dip. No context - meh. Context - Played the 3rd, 14th, 6th and 29th defence on still the most stacked team of all time but sans Curry for a few games. Actually had something like a .060TS% drop in the Western Conference, which only became positive after feasting on the 29th ranked defence in the league. Volume did increase a fair bit, but still actually kinda bad imo.

2019 = +.030, .661TS% in PS, sizable gain, excellent. Context - Played the 21st and 19th ranked defence in the league, whilst still on the most stacked team of all time. Also only played 12 games. Nothing notable.

Lebron
2006 = -.011TS, .557TS%, tiny dip. No context - good. Context - First playoff series ever against the 22nd and 5th ranked defences. Meh, nothing notable.

2007 = -.038, .516TS%, sizable dip. No context - meh. Context - played the 28th, 15th, 7th and 2nd best defences in the league that year including the eventual NBA champion, with below average offensive talent. Meh, nothing notable / bad but understandable.

2008 = -.035, .525TS%, sizable dip. No context - meh. Context - played the 24th and 1st ranked defence in the league this year. Not only was the 08 Celtics the best defence in the league, they were demonstrably one of the best defences of all time. By all metrics a top 5 defence of the modern era with some saying it's actually the best defence in the shot clock era period. Lebron's TS% was a terrible 49TS% in that series, but with little offensive talent around him vs 3 All Stars + possibly the best defence of the modern era, this is a bad, but understandable.

2009 = +.017, .618TS% sizable gain. No context - excellent. Context - played the 16th, 12th and 1st ranked defence in the league this year whilst absolutely **** smoking said best defence in the league, still with not great offensive help compared to Durant. 39/8/8 on 59TS%, on a massive increase in volume compared to the regular season too. **** Excellent

2010 = +.004, .607TS% tiny gain. No context - good. Context - Played the 11th and 5th best defence that year, the latter of which he did with a bad elbow and all of which he still did with not great offensive talent surrounding him. Good.


2011 = -.031, .563TS% sizable dip. No context - meh. Context - Played the 7th, 2nd, 1st and 8th best defence in the league, of which the 1st was another ATG defence. Was actually excellent before the finals in which he shat the bed. I'm gonna give this a bad despite the steep defensive competition.

2012 = -.031, .576TS%, sizable dip. No context - meh. Context - played the 5th, 9th, 1st and 11th best defence in the league with awful spacing, Bosh being out for half of the playoffs and Wade having to get his knee drained. That + a large increase in volume from the regular season = excellent.

2013 = -.055, .586TS%, big dip. No context - bad. Context - played the 12th, 6th, 1st and 3rd best D in the league. Had more spacing than the year prior, but Wade and Bosh were actually somehow worse in the playoffs lol, and no longer playing at an All Star level in the finals. Still though pretty disappointing for Lebron's standards especially considering the year prior, imma say bad.

2014 = +.19, .668TS% sizable gain. No context - excellent. Context - Played the 5th, 20th, 1st and 3rd ranked defences with the worst version of Wade and Bosh. I actually didn't appreciate how nasty this run was efficiency wise until now, especially considering the defence, wow. Excellent

2015 = -.110, .487TS% massive dip. No context - **** awful. Context - Played the 12th, 11th, 6th and 1st best defence in the league. Was without his 3rd best player for half the playoffs, without his 2nd best player for a few games the Finals, and had **** up his back. Had a **** stupidly massive increase in volume in the Finals, amounting in him having to take (and yes, when you're playing next to Delly, Mozgov and TT you have to take a lot of shots) 33 shots a game. Bad but understandable.

2016 = -.003, .585TS% tiny dip. No context - good. Context - Played the 12th, 2nd, 11th, and 5th ranked defences. Very good when taking into account competition, excellent when taking into account the sick nasty defence Lebron played, but we're focusing on offence so he gets a normal good. Do take note of how much better he was than KD here though.

2017 = +.030, .649TS%, sizable gain, excellent. Context - Played the 16th, 11th, 13th and 2nd ranked defences and **** destroyed every single one. Best offensive team he's ever been on. Despite his teammates still not being as good on offence as KD's AND that he on average played better defences, AND had a bigger offensive load then KD, AND received more offensive attention then KD, AND increased his volume way more than KD did, they STILL had the same .30TS% increase. **** excellent, GOAT level ****. Legit routinely argued as Lebron's peak as well as a top 3 offensive peak of all time

2018 = +.002, .619TS%, tiny dip. No context - good. Context - Played the 13th, 5th, 1st and 11th best defences in the league. Despite having on average more difficult defensive competition than KD this year AND VASTLY inferior teammates AND a MUCH bigger offensive load to carry than KD AND whilst increasing his volume way more than KD's, his efficiency stays the same whilst KD's dips below Lebron's. **** excellent.

Seriously, how are you going to argue that KD is impossible to defend compared to Lebron when he has less to do on offence, better teammates on offence, faced slightly worse defences and had MUCH lower volume as both a scorer and playmaker than Lebron and yet was still less efficient than him in both scoring and playmaking? He has less to do than Lebron whilst being given much better tools to work with and he's still worse. Straight up my **** in 2018 KD is worse both in efficiency dropped and in overall efficiency even though he has much lower volume in everything and better teammates. That's madness. I'm actually shocked :lol: ngl I came into this thinking KD's defensive competition would be more way difficult than Lebron's, thereby making these comparisons a bit closer but I was wrong. How illuminating.

2020 =.060, .647TS%, big gain. No context = **** excellent. Context = You apparently don't care about anything that happened in the bubble, so we're going to ignore Lebron scoring 28 points on similar TS% to 2017 Curry. (65TS% for Lebron, 66TS% for Curry. **** excellent.

D'you wanna know what their TS averages in the playoffs are from 2014 to now? They're identical at .602TS%, with nearly identical volume per 100 with 26.7FGA for KD and 27.6FGA for Lebron. Lebron scored 38.8 points per 100 with an ORTG of 119 to KD's 37.6 with an ORTG of 116. So despite the fact that Lebron has played 122 playoff games to KD's 85, has had worse teammates, a larger offensive load to carry and on average has either played similar or better defences than KD has, their scoring efficiency is identical in the post season. Proves my point about KD's indefensibility compared to Lebron's being a myth. KD's versatile scoring skillset just isn't as resilient as Lebron's in the post season, which is actually rather counterintuitive but oh well.

Other things to note. KD from 2014-2020 in the playoffs averages 4APG with 3.2 turnovers, 5.3 Assists PER100 with 4 turnovers, with an 11.4 TOV%. Lebron from 2014-2020? 7.8APG on 3.6 turnovers, 10.3 Assists PER100 with 5 turnovers, with a 13.5 TOV%. So nearly 100% the assists with only a 20% increase in turnovers.

KD's rebounding from 14-20 - 7.5RPG, 0.8OREB, 9.6 PER100 with a 10.7REB%
Lebron's rebounding from 14-20 - 9.5RPG, 1.4OREB, with a 14.1REB%

Regular Season
KD's teams offensive ratings from 2014-2019.
14 - 6th
15 - 10th (without him for 53 games)
16 - 2nd
17 - 1st (without him for 20 games)
18 - 3rd
19 - 1st

Lebron's teams offensive ratings from 2014-2020
14 - 5th
15 - 3rd
16 - 3rd
17 - 3rd
18 - 5th
19 - 24th (without Lebron for 30 games)
20 - 11th (I think it was 4th pre-bubble).

Post Season
KD's teams offensive ratings from 2014 and 16-19
14 - 106.1, 9th.
16 - 111.3, 2nd, distant second to Lebron at 1st with 114.6
17 - 118.2, 2nd, ATG, but still second to Lebron's ATG offence, despite the fact Lebron faced superior defensive competition
18 - 112.7, 1st, way ahead of Lebron, though played worse defences, though also had no Curry
19 - 114.6, 1st, was out for half of it, can't attribute it to him

Lebron's teams offensive ratings form 2014-18 and 2020
14 - 112.0, 4th.
15 - 106.6, 5th, [b](with no Love for half of it and no Kyrie when the faced the best D in the league).

16 - 114.6, 1st.
17 - 119.9, 1st. literal GOAT playoff offence.
18 - 108.3, 8th.
20 - 115.6, 1st out of every team to play more than 4 games, though technically 2nd overall? As the Jazz got 120 in 4 games.

So, you said KD is impossible to defend. I've showcased evidence that indicates that's false as not only does KD's efficiency dip much more in the post season than Lebron's does, but even when he has better teammates, less to do on offence and faces worse defences, his scoring efficiency is equal to Lebron's on slightly lower volume.

You said KD's ability to be portable makes him better on offence than LeBron and that KD > Lebron since 2014 and that KD makes ATG teams and dynasties whilst Lebron just stuffs the stats, whatever the hell that means. I've showcased evidence that indicates this is also false. Lebron has had worse teammates, has faced similar and sometimes tougher defensive competition, has received more offensive attention, has offensively destroyed a team that KD got locked up by in 2016 and yet has identical scoring efficiency to KD on slightly higher volume, **** on him in terms of playmaking efficiency and volume, is a better offensive rebounder and has not only led 3 #1 ranked offences in the post season to KD's 1 (he didn't lead it in 2019 as he missed half the playoffs), but has led an offence that reached heights KD's never did, even though KD had better teammates and so should have been able to. Even if you remove the bubble. Lebron has still led one more #1 ranked playoff offence than KD, whilst leading an offence that KD never could, whilst again facing better defensive competition, whilst having worse teammates. .

There's literally no argument for KD here. He was better than Lebron in 2014? Nope, he had one of the worst post seasons of his career whilst Lebron had one of his best offensively and was better than him on D.

He's been better on offence than Lebron since 2014? Nope. In the 4 years they were both in the playoffs concurrently, despite KD having the better offensive supporting cast most of the time, KD only had a better offence than him once, when he was on the 18 Warriors on Lebron was on the 18 Cavs. 3-1 offence for Lebron. If you think that 18 Cavs outside of Lebron is similar in talent to the 18 Warriors outside of KD, then you'd still be down 3-1 in the argument but at least have a single shred of evidence lol, but that's not even the case.

He's impossible to defend? Nope, he's actually easier to defend than Lebron. He's better on offence on account of his portability? Nope, Lebron has led better offences than him.

Lebron would change the way GS played the game and change their offence, which means he's worse than KD who'd fit in? Nope, he had a better offence than them with worse players, so him marginalizing people clearly wasn't a problem. KD not having the playmaking chops of Lebron isn't positive portability, it's negative portability. He's taking away less roles because he can do less than Lebron.

I haven't even mentioned defence in which Lebron has consistently been better than KD on. KD was notable on defence in 2017 and the 16 post season and outside of that has been as average. Lebron was ATG in the 2016 post season, ATG in the 2017 post season until the finals and has been better than KD defensively every single year outside of 2018. I'm pretty sure even bad back 2015 Lebron graded out as one of the best wings in the league defensively, which surprised me.

Lebron has also played an extra 127 RS games and 37 PS games than Durant from 14-20. How KD can be better than the guy that's played an entire extra regular season and a half more than him + an extra 1.5 playoff runs than him, whilst being on his level, is beyond me.


And what did he do with GS? Only elevate them to arguably the greatest team of all time, rivaled only by Jordan's Bulls, Shaq & Kobe's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, & Showtime.


- M8, WHAT are you talking about? Consistent dominance? They won 2 championships in a 3 year span.
Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, 3-1 across 5 years.
Birds Celtics, 3-2 across 5 years.
Jordans Bulls, 6-0 across 6 years.
Showtime, 5-4 across 11 years.
Duncans Spurs, 5-1 across 16 years
Not close to their level.

Plus as I already showed, he didn't elevate their offence to the same heights Lebron elevated his inferior teams offence to. Unless you argue that KD elevated GS's defence, than you're not really arguing anything at all.

Seriously, I feel like i'm taking crazy pills. You're hyping up KD for being able to take an ATG great team to an all time great team. You're hyping up KD for making a team that had just gone to back to back finals, that had just won 67 and 73 games, that had already won a championship, to be an ATG team. I don't care. I think that's what it comes down to, I literally do not give a **** about KD turning a 70 win team championship team on average that had just make B2B finals into the best team ever for one season in 2017, whilst facing injured competition. Say that out loud, "KD turned a 70 win team into an ATG team! Amazing!". That's not impressive to me, I care about what I see one the court, of which was the 2nd best player on a team with no pressure, feasting on single coverage created by his better in Steph and for only the 2nd time in his career or so, not having his efficiency drop noticeably in the post season. KD missed 20 games in 2017 for goodness sake and they still won 67 games.


At their height, the Warriors were far and away better than any team LeBron's been featured on, regardless of how much input he's had on rosters, or how many HoF teammates he's played with. Despite it all, he's never been able to lead a team to a level of consistent dominance that we witnessed from GS.


At their height, a team far and away more talented than any team Lebron's been featured on was still worse on offence than Lebron's best teams, and I know for damn sure KD isn't responsible for their top ranked defence. In other words, at their height, a team far and away more talented than any team Lebron's been featured on was better than any team Lebron's been featured on. Wow.

Before I receive the usual rebuttals, I'll address them now:

- GS won before Durant, but only because Kyrie & Love were hurt in 14-15. Had they played in series it's reasonable to assume Cleveland would've beaten them, given they did so the very next season.
.

Oh yeah, lets talk about 2016. KD averaged 30 points, 8 rebounds and 2.6 assists to 3.2 turnovers on 54TS%, a massive .90% drop from his regular season .63TS%, and blew a 3-1 lead to the 16 Warriors. Lebron averaged 30 points, 11 rebounds and 9 assists to 4.4 turnovers on 56TS%, a much smaller .30% drop from his 59TS% in the regular season and came back from a 3-1 lead against the same team KD blew one to, yet you think this helps prove your point about KD being better than Lebron? Lebron scoring better, rebounding more and tripling KD's assists whilst playing ATG defence and beating the team KD lost to? If your arguments is "It doesn't mean much, Lebron only won because of x circumstances to GS" then you admit GS would have won a championship without KD, thereby making your point about the 2015 chip not meaning much mute and massively weakening your entire argument, whilst also admitting mitigating circumstances shouldn't be ignored thereby admitting that KD sweeping the 17 Spurs isn't impressive. If your argument isn't that, but " It doesn't mean anything, Lebron only won because his teammates were better than KD's", if Lebron leading an ATG offence and winning a championship with "better" teammates than KD doesn't prove he's better, then why would KD leading worse offences than Lebron whilst winning two championships with better teammates than Lebron prove that KD is better? Can't have it both ways.. If you don't have a counter argument and you think Lebron was better than KD in 2016, then you should have said that before instead of saying he's been better every year since 2014 :P

- After going 73-9 in the regular season, 15-16 Warriors limped through the playoffs, losing nine games in the total before ultimately losing the finals. The 17-18 Warriors lost one playoff game.


The 2016 Warriors lost their first and second most valuable players for a combined total of 7 games and faced a relatively healthy OKC in the WCF. The 2017 Warriors lost their third most valuable player for 2 games, and faced a 2017 Spurs with it's best player out in the WCF. Why do these things not matter to you? That's not a rhetorical question, you've not addressed it. The more i've read and reread your post it really seems like the only thing you care about is the Warriors going 16-1 in 2017. Why do you not care about the only threat them that year in the WCF having their best player injured?

- If you put LBJ on that GS in place of Durant, he'd take the ball away from Draymond & Steph, change the style of play, etc. They'd be a completely different team than they were with Durant.


Different doesn't mean worse. The fact he led a better offence than they ever did proves this. It's not a negative.

- Durant was clearly GS's best scoring option when games slowed down & defenses got tighter in the post season, which is why they pursued him to begin with.


True.

Now he's doing it again with Brooklyn, a franchise that has never won an NBA title, with teammates who are allegedly cancerous & problematic. So much so, that pundits, analyst, and fans everywhere predicted they'd implode upon construction. So much for that, eh?


KD is on a team with the best ORTG in the league again, whilst he is on the most offensively talented team in the league again, and is the second best offensive player on his team again :lol: this proves nothing, again.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#156 » by Bayaz » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:18 pm

McBubbles wrote:- Lebron in 2013 won 66 games whilst winning 27 games straight before Wade got injured again. How is that not an ATG team? If your argument is they're not ATG cuz they went 16-7, then by that logic the 67 and 66 win 2000 Lakers and 08 Celtics respectively aren't ATG teams either, as they had worse post season records than the Heat.


Were the 12-13 Heat an ATG team, or anywhere near as good as the KD era Warriors? Were they better all time than the Spurs teams of that period?


- I've addressed this before. Lebron ran two top 10 playoff offences of all time in 2016 and 17, with 2017 actually being the best ever. Even relative to the defences they played, it was one of the best offences ever. KD despite having a better team whilst in GS, never led an offence as good as LBJ's best. The 2018 and 19 Warriors weren't even better than the 2016 Cavaliers on offence, despite the fact Love got concussed and averaged a terrible 9 points on 40TS% or something sad during the finals. In other words, KD being a better fit with other All NBA players has never tangibly shown it leads to better offensive results then Lebron marginalizing other players. So saying KD's portability on offence makes him better than LBJ because he can't initiate an offence good enough to make him more valuable than Durant is literally, factually incorrect.


You're arguing that LBJ's Cleveland teams had better offenses than the KD era Warriors? Because that sounds ridiculous. Also, are we gong to ignore LBJ's time in Miami, where is inability to adapt to Wade in year one lead to a painfully disappointing finals loss to the Mavs?

What do you mean KD hasn't shown an ability to fit seamlessly with other all NBA talents? We've seen it with OKC(Westbrook, Harden), GS(Curry, Klay, Draymond), and now Brooklyn(Kyrie, Harden). In fact, a former teammate of LBJ's that did not enjoy the dynamic of their relationship in Cleveland, is now blossoming with KD in Brooklyn, a situation he chose of his own volition.

- [b]Furthermore, why do you act as if Lebron has never changed his style for others? Lebron did relinquish his ball handling role somewhat to run a ridiculously slow paced (between 86-89 pace, I don't remember off the top of my head) pass heavy offence and let Wade and Chalmers of all people make plays, with Lebron being 26th in time of possession of the ball in the RS and averaging a career low 4.8 assists per game in 2014 PS. This was also whilst becoming on of the best off ball players in the league from 12-14 due to his great off ball cutting and catch and shooting. Or when Lebron let Kyrie take more shots than him, AND hold the ball for longer than him in 2017? You and several others seem to imply that Lebron in no circumstances ever has shared the ball or adapted to others playstyle.[/b]


When he put up one of the worst finals series of all time for a player for a player of his talent & stature, before ultimately losing the finals? That's your example of him adopting a different style of play?

Lebron's unique (literal one of one) combination of size, skill and playmaking makes it so easy for him to win


I've already addressed this in my OP. He guarantees competitive teams and long playoff runs, but his inability to play any other way also puts a ceiling on his teams that does not exist with KD. Hence the KD era Warriors being one of the greatest teams of all time, a title none of LBJ's can claim, or are even in discussion for regardless of the talent he's surrounded himself with.

- KD is only undefendable (I think indefensible means something else) in the regular season. His efficiency dips a lot in the post season on a regular basis, and he's much more human. I'm mainly going to address his scoring but will dabble in the "being better than Lebron since 14" thing too.


He's the most efficient volume scorer in finals history, and one of the most efficient volume scorers of all time in the post season. Neither of these facts are arguable, you could've saved yourself a wall of stats.

So, you said KD is impossible to defend. I've showcased evidence that indicates that's false as not only does KD's efficiency dip much more in the post season than Lebron's does, but even when he has better teammates, less to do on offence and faces worse defences, his scoring efficiency is equal to Lebron's on slightly lower volume.


None of your caveats or rationalizations change the fact that KD scores at a higher volume & a more efficient clip than LBJ, while possessing a skillset that instrumental to creating what is possibly the greatest team of all time.

[b]You said KD's ability to be portable makes him better on offence than LeBron and that KD > Lebron since 2014 and that KD makes ATG teams and dynasties whilst Lebron just stuffs the stats[/quote]

Yes, he proved this with the Warriors, and is now doing so again with Brooklyn.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#157 » by McBubbles » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:02 pm

Bayaz wrote:
I'm convinced you didn't actually read the vast majority of my reply, so that was a huge waste of time of my part. Not going to put as much effort into this one.

Were the 12-13 Heat an ATG team,

Demonstrably yes.
or anywhere near as good as the KD era Warriors?

No, because they were nowhere near as talented. I swear if you reply saying "Lebron got to choose his teammat-" m8 that's not the point. If you think KD would have made the 2013 Heat better than Lebron did, then you have a point. No evidence to indicate that though.
Were they better all time than the Spurs teams of that period?

Slightly worse despite bigger injuries.

You're arguing that LBJ's Cleveland teams had better offenses than the KD era Warriors? Because that sounds ridiculous.

...Are you serious? How on earth is "that sounds ridiculous" an acceptable counter argument? You've just exposed yourself as having extreme bias and didn't even realize it. The irony in you linking articles to other people on cognitive biases :lol: . You straight up dismissed a fact because it doesn't fit your narrative, but it's true, I literally showed this in my wall of stats which you apparently didn't even look at. The 2016 Cavs had a better playoff offence than the 2018 Warriors and 2019 Warriors, whilst the 2017 Cavs had a better playoff offence than the 2017 Warriors, whilst also facing better defences on average. Only the 18 Warriors were better than the 18 Cavs in the PS, if you could address this with a rebuttal instead of a dismissal that'd be lovely.

Also, are we gong to ignore LBJ's time in Miami, where is inability to adapt to Wade in year one lead to a painfully disappointing finals loss to the Mavs?

As long as you don't ignore that his ability to adapt to Wade, Kyrie and AD led to multiple championships. That seems fair.

What do you mean KD hasn't shown an ability to fit seamlessly with other all NBA talents?

I didn't say that? I said his ability to fit seamlessly with other All NBA talents is irrelevant because it still didn't lead to PS offences as good as Lebron's did when Lebron marginalized other talents.

When he put up one of the worst finals series of all time for a player for a player of his talent & stature, before ultimately losing the finals? That's your example of him adopting a different style of play?

1. I mentioned 4 years in which he adopted a different style of play and you ignore the 2 years in which said change of play won championships and focus on the times he lost. Thank you for taking all evidence into account when making your points, I love talking to people so intellectually honest.
2. Uhhhh, which finals series are you talking about? I was talking about 2014 where he scored 28 points on 68TS% with 52% shooting from 3. They lost that series because of poor defence not offence. That wasn't one of the worst finals series of all time, far from it.

I've already addressed this in my OP. He guarantees competitive teams and long playoff runs, but his inability to play any other way

I JUST SHOWED YOU HE WON MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS WHILST PLAYING AN "OTHER WAY", WHY YOU DO JUST IGNORE THE THINGS I SAY?

also puts a ceiling on his teams that does not exist with KD.

I JUST SHOWED YOU THAT LEBRON'S TEAMS REACHED HIGHER HEIGHTS ON OFFENCE THAN KD'S DID, WHY DO YOU JUST IGNORE THE THINGS I SAY :banghead: ?

Hence the KD era Warriors being one of the greatest teams of all time, a title none of LBJ's can claim, or are even in discussion for regardless of the talent he's surrounded himself with.

I love how you keep on saying "regardless of talent". It's very much not regardless of talent though is it :lol: It's your buzz word / catch phrase that allows you to disregard the superior talent KD played with and act like it doesn't matter :lol: so ridiculous.

He's the most efficient volume scorer in finals history,

You seem to have a fetish for ignoring context.

KD averages 32 points on 67TS% in the finals whilst Lebron averages 28 points on 56TS% in the Finals. Omg, KD **** on Lebron in the finals right? Wrong, context:

Kevin Durant has played in 3 Finals (played 11 minutes in one game in 2019 so i'm not counting that) against the 4th, 21st and 29th defence in the league in that order. He has a 14 game sample size, on average faces the 18th ranked defence in the league whilst being on the most talented team of all time with multiple GOAT off ball players for 9 of these 14 games, and had one All star teammate at least for every single one, but most of the time had 3. He also played 2/3rds of this 14 game sample size from 2018 onwards, in one of the fastest paced, most efficient, least difficult offensive eras in league history (comparable to the 80s). He averages 32 points, 8 rebounds and 5 assists and 3 turnovers on 67TS%

Lebron has played 10 finals against the 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 11th and 11th defences.
He has a 55 game sample size, on average faces the 6th ranked defence in the league whilst having zero All Star support for 10 of them and never having as much help as KD. He played 2/10 of this 55 game sample size from 2018 onwards. He averages 28 points, 10 rebounds and 8 assists with 4 turnovers on 56TS%

So in other words, when KD played more time in the easier era, had better teammates, less to do, faced worse defences and had his sample size of games a quarter as large as LeBron's, he scored more points than him on higher efficiency, but still never led an offence in the PS as good as Lebrons did btw. That's not impressive.

and one of the most efficient volume scorers of all time in the post season. Neither of these facts are arguable, you could've saved yourself a wall of stats.

He's not a better efficient volume scorer than Lebron in the post season oh my gooood :banghead:, did you literally not read my post? If so why did you even reply?

None of your caveats or rationalizations change the fact that KD scores at a higher volume & a more efficient clip than LBJ, while possessing a skillset that instrumental to creating what is possibly the greatest team of all time.

**** ARE YOU **** KIDDING ME? HE DOESN'T SCORE AT A HIGHER VOLUME AND A MORE EFFICIENT CLIP THAN LBJ, HE SCORES ON A LOWER VOLUME ON THE SAME EFFICIENCY AND MUCH WORSE RELATIVE EFFICIENCY, I SHOWED THIS. What is happening ;___; i'm starting to think you're a very sophisticated troll.

You said KD's ability to be portable makes him better on offence than LeBron and that KD > Lebron since 2014 and that KD makes ATG teams and dynasties whilst Lebron just stuffs the stats

Yes, he proved this with the Warriors, and is now doing so again with Brooklyn.


HOW DID HE PROVE HE MAKES BETTER OFFENCES THAN LEBRON BY LEADING WORSE PLAYOFF OFFENCES THAN LEBRON? You've not addressed this once :banghead:

Also, you said that KD usually gives his teams a better chance of being competitive than Lebron's do and used OKC being "irrelevant" after he left a proof of this. You gonna address the fact that's Lebron's team have been much worse without him than Durant's teams have been without Durant or no? OKC making 3 straight playoff appearances in a harder conference > Cavs being in the lottery 4 straight years.


Edit: Ok is it just my device or is the page **** up? The text boxes are stretching across the page on both my laptop and my phone for the last two comments (Mine and Bayaz's).
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#158 » by trex_8063 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:32 pm

This is a two and a half week old [and extensively covered, from the look of it] thread that no one had touched for 48 hours until it was bumped by someone who doesn't appear to have earnest intent toward a good faith debate. I'm going to lock it before it spins out of control like both of the other Durant-related threads (last page is busted anyway).
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd

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