Kevin Durant or Lebron James?

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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#101 » by GYK » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:31 pm

There’s no team construction I’m taking Durant or liver the third best player of all time.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#102 » by VDT » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:12 pm

Jaivl wrote:
VDT wrote:Lebron is better, Durant gives you probably the higher ceiling if you have a lot of talent, as he doesnt have to dominate the ball.

That's probably true in theory, but... who do you even want with the ball on their hands before LeBron?

The answer is probably limited to... Magic and Nash? And even then, is a lesser-role LeBron (more focused on defense/extra passes/screens/running the break/etc) even worse than Durant?


It's not so much who you want with the ball in his hands (which is probably too vague) but how can he coexist with other talented players.

Jordan for a year had pg duties and averaged 32.5/8/8 but the team took off only when Pippen was allowed to handle the ball more and Jordan played a more specialized role. His all around stats were lower but it gave his teammates room to breathe and as a result the team became better. Imagine if Jordan was not able/willing to play in a more off ball role. The Bulls might have still won a title or two (certainly less than they did) but Pippen would look worse as he wouldnt have been allowed to play to his strengths (people might even have complained that Jordan had no help) and overall the team would be worse.

I am trying to say that there is value in being able to have a more specialized role to allow other players to flourish and conversely there is a price to pay when a player dominates the ball too much. Lebron's all around game is impressive but at the same time his inability to assume a different role makes it hard to have a good synergy with other stars . It is probably the reason that despite all the talent he played with, he never had a particularly dominant team.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#103 » by JordansBulls » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:08 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Besides Lebron lost to Dwight Howard with HCA while KD lost to Zach Randolph with it. Lebron won bronze medal twice for the USA as well while KD only won gold medals for the USA.


So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#104 » by McBubbles » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:35 pm

Gooner wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
Gooner wrote:
I don't need to bend anything, I just state pure facts. People say Miami was older, what were the Spurs then? Wade wasn't a super star? Nobody on San Antonio was either by those standards. San Antonio had 4 hall of famers? So did Miami. LBJ gets more excuses than any superstar in history.


I said 4 HOF who were still playing at a high level in their entire playoffs run .... Of course you haven't read the whole sentence but it's not a surprise.....Wade wasn't a superstar in 2013 and 2014.

LeBron needs no excuse .... 10 finals, 4 titles, 4 FMVP, 4 MVP and probably the future all-time scorer in NBA history in the regular season (he has been in the playoffs since 2017) and others record like the first team all-nba,etc ... problem it's you who is not able to recognize that he is an all-time great (top 3 players ever at least)


If Wade wasn't a superstar, then Parker wasn't either, nor was Ginobili. KD has a lot of accomplishments as well, and yet people don't give him credit. When LBJ wins, he gets all the credit, but when he loses he gets non of the blame. KD can't win, his victories don't mean anything, and if he loses it's an embarrassment.


Out of all the asinine, bull **** quotables people have about Lebron, "He can guard 1-5", "he's x in points and he's not even a scorer", "he can take any team to the finals", "Lebron-ball limits a teams offence", "He's not clutch", the one you just said is the most egregious. Whenever someone says this I know they either don't care to be objective about LeBron's career or they're detached from the reality of NBA basketball. The guy that for a time, was the most hated athlete in North America post decision doesn't get blamed for losses, yeah right.

The guy that dropped 39/8/8 on 59%TS against the #1 ranked defence in the league and got pooped on for days after the series for not shaking Dwights hand, then having that used as evidence for his lack of "winning mentality", doesn't get blamed for his losses.

The guy that has had people straight up say he's eliminated from the GOAT conversation due to his **** up in 2011 (a criticism which has never been levied at his ATG peers with their underperformances), doesn't get blamed for his losses.

The guy that despite leading multiple ATG playoff offences, has had people invent the bull criticism of Lebron-ball to explain his finals losses instead of ya know, using context on a case by case basis, doesn't get blamed for his losses.

The guy that despite his teammate in JR Smith having one of the biggest finals **** up of all time, had the bulk of the blame for the Game 1 loss in the 2018 finals put on HIM due to his poor leadership on route to dropping 51/8/8 in overtime, doesn't get blamed for his losses.

The man doesn't even get all the credit he deserves for his wins and you say he doesn't get criticized for losses. How many say that Lebron single handily owes all the credit for his 2013 championship to Ray Allen, or his 2016 championship to Kyrie? ESPN couldn't help but dedicate a segment to criticize him riding a bike, and you somehow think he doesn't get criticized for losses :lol: lol.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#105 » by Homer38 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:38 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Besides Lebron lost to Dwight Howard with HCA while KD lost to Zach Randolph with it. Lebron won bronze medal twice for the USA as well while KD only won gold medals for the USA.


So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.


LBJ had 19 years old at this time....
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#106 » by McBubbles » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:00 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Besides Lebron lost to Dwight Howard with HCA while KD lost to Zach Randolph with it. Lebron won bronze medal twice for the USA as well while KD only won gold medals for the USA.


So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.


I'm probably going to get some sort of mod warning for this but on a completely separate note, are people sure JordansBulls isn't a troll? I've been lurking on this forum for a long time and they've legitimately never made an argument that isn't completely terrible. It's like they're a bot that searches the web for a players record with HCA and spits it out with no context.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#107 » by freethedevil » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:03 pm

VDT wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
VDT wrote:Lebron is better, Durant gives you probably the higher ceiling if you have a lot of talent, as he doesnt have to dominate the ball.

That's probably true in theory, but... who do you even want with the ball on their hands before LeBron?

The answer is probably limited to... Magic and Nash? And even then, is a lesser-role LeBron (more focused on defense/extra passes/screens/running the break/etc) even worse than Durant?


It's not so much who you want with the ball in his hands (which is probably too vague) but how can he coexist with other talented players.

Jordan for a year had pg duties and averaged 32.5/8/8 but the team took off only when Pippen was allowed to handle the ball more and Jordan played a more specialized role. His all around stats were lower but it gave his teammates room to breathe and as a result the team became better. Imagine if Jordan was not able/willing to play in a more off ball role. The Bulls might have still won a title or two (certainly less than they did) but Pippen would look worse as he wouldnt have been allowed to play to his strengths (people might even have complained that Jordan had no help) and overall the team would be worse.

I am trying to say that there is value in being able to have a more specialized role to allow other players to flourish and conversely there is a price to pay when a player dominates the ball too much. Lebron's all around game is impressive but at the same time his inability to assume a different role makes it hard to have a good synergy with other stars . It is probably the reason that despite all the talent he played with, he never had a particularly dominant team.

The 12 heat and the 20 lakers were dominant teams(when healthy) despit having simgicantly worse relative to era spacing than jordan's bulls. It's a complete myth lol
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#108 » by PaulieWal » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:12 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Besides Lebron lost to Dwight Howard with HCA while KD lost to Zach Randolph with it. Lebron won bronze medal twice for the USA as well while KD only won gold medals for the USA.


So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.


No, you're unequivocally wrong here and clearly trolling. Please just stop derailing.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#109 » by JordansBulls » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:52 am

PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.


No, you're unequivocally wrong here and clearly trolling. Please just stop derailing.

Um stating a fact is not trolling. If I said Lebron was the reason that the US won bronze then you would have a point. All I said was that he actually won 2 bronze medals for the U.S which was accurate. And in reality when playing basketball in the Olympics and FIBA the only thing that matters to the U.S is gold no matter the stats.
Also I wasn't the one who brought up other seasons it was nzahir. I highlighted the two seasons in question and then the next poster nzahir started talking about other years that weren't part of the topic and thus I responded.
Gotta be fair all around buddy!
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#110 » by PaulieWal » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:03 am

JordansBulls wrote:Gotta be fair all around buddy!


You really shouldn't be taking about fairness, buddy, given the insane amount of rope you have been given by mods across multiple boards, and yet you refuse to stop trolling/derailing. Your attempts to deflect are transparent and don't really add up.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#111 » by JordansBulls » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:33 am

PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Gotta be fair all around buddy!


You really shouldn't be taking about fairness, buddy, given the insane amount of rope you have been given by mods across multiple boards, and yet you refuse to stop trolling/derailing. Your attempts to deflect are transparent and don't really add up.

I don't get this I am trolling/derailing if I am responding to someone in the threads and I present factual information or something of my opinion. We have someone here who has KG the #2 greatest ever yet that isn't considered trolling. That would be like someone saying Wade is top 3 all time and constantly saying it.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#112 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:50 am

JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Gotta be fair all around buddy!


You really shouldn't be taking about fairness, buddy, given the insane amount of rope you have been given by mods across multiple boards, and yet you refuse to stop trolling/derailing. Your attempts to deflect are transparent and don't really add up.

I don't get this I am trolling/derailing if I am responding to someone in the threads and I present factual information or something of my opinion. We have someone here who has KG the #2 greatest ever yet that isn't considered trolling. That would be like someone saying Wade is top 3 all time and constantly saying it.
Saying Wade is top 3 isn't trolling especially if you're taking the time to argue your point of view.

Pointing out Lebron has bronze medals when he was a bench player is clearly trolling. You're just tip toeing around it. It's called reading between the lines.

If you're arguing that because you did not say it is Lebron James fault therefore it is not trolling then why would you bring it up in the first place?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#113 » by thebigbird » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:37 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Besides Lebron lost to Dwight Howard with HCA while KD lost to Zach Randolph with it. Lebron won bronze medal twice for the USA as well while KD only won gold medals for the USA.


So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.

If you’re putting blame on a 19 year old coming off the bench for 12 minutes a game, you should probably step back and ask yourself why. 8 other players played more minutes, including prime Tim Duncan. I’ve never seen you out any blame on Tim Duncan for “only winnng a bronze medal.”
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#114 » by parapooper » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:30 pm

2004 against Argentina the most minutes went to Iverson, Marbury, Marion, Odom and Boozer in that order.
Those guys got 10x the playing time LeBron got and more than Tim Duncan.

Iverson (age 29) played 31 min and scored 10 pts on 37.5% TS
Wade (age 22) played 19 min and scored 2 pts on 12.5% TS
LeBron (age 19) played 3 min and scored 3 pts on 150% TS

But somehow the loss is LeBron's fault?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#115 » by JordansBulls » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:38 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
You really shouldn't be taking about fairness, buddy, given the insane amount of rope you have been given by mods across multiple boards, and yet you refuse to stop trolling/derailing. Your attempts to deflect are transparent and don't really add up.

I don't get this I am trolling/derailing if I am responding to someone in the threads and I present factual information or something of my opinion. We have someone here who has KG the #2 greatest ever yet that isn't considered trolling. That would be like someone saying Wade is top 3 all time and constantly saying it.
Saying Wade is top 3 isn't trolling especially if you're taking the time to argue your point of view.

Pointing out Lebron has bronze medals when he was a bench player is clearly trolling. You're just tip toeing around it. It's called reading between the lines.

If you're arguing that because you did not say it is Lebron James fault therefore it is not trolling then why would you bring it up in the first place?


And had he won gold it would say he has more than anyone in 3 straight Olympics. Can’t have it both ways. Like I said he averaged the same amount of minutes in the Olympics that year that Hakeem averaged in 1996 even when Hakeem was a top 3 player. He averaged more minutes then Stockton averaged in either 1992 or 1996.
He also won bronze in fiba in 2006 with Wade and Melo when they were the clear cut stars. But in the Olympics and FIBA the only thing that matters is whether you win gold or not no matter the stats.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#116 » by JordansBulls » Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:06 pm

parapooper wrote:2004 against Argentina the most minutes went to Iverson, Marbury, Marion, Odom and Boozer in that order.
Those guys got 10x the playing time LeBron got and more than Tim Duncan.

Iverson (age 29) played 31 min and scored 10 pts on 37.5% TS
Wade (age 22) played 19 min and scored 2 pts on 12.5% TS
LeBron (age 19) played 3 min and scored 3 pts on 150% TS

But somehow the loss is LeBron's fault?


Never said it was his fault in 2004, said he ended up winning bronze medal on the 2004 Olympic team. Let’s reverse it say they won gold medal would we not say he won 3 straight Olympic gold medals in basketball? Or would we say 2004 doesn’t count?
Also does anything change even if you double his minutes on the squad that year?

It would be one thing if I am saying you put 2012 Lebron on the squad and he is playing 12 mpg when he should be playing much more vs 2004 Lebron on the squad.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#117 » by thebigbird » Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:36 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
parapooper wrote:2004 against Argentina the most minutes went to Iverson, Marbury, Marion, Odom and Boozer in that order.
Those guys got 10x the playing time LeBron got and more than Tim Duncan.

Iverson (age 29) played 31 min and scored 10 pts on 37.5% TS
Wade (age 22) played 19 min and scored 2 pts on 12.5% TS
LeBron (age 19) played 3 min and scored 3 pts on 150% TS

But somehow the loss is LeBron's fault?


Never said it was his fault in 2004, said he ended up winning bronze medal on the 2004 Olympic team. Let’s reverse it say they won gold medal would we not say he won 3 straight Olympic gold medals in basketball? Or would we say 2004 doesn’t count?
Also does anything change even if you double his minutes on the squad that year?

It would be one thing if I am saying you put 2012 Lebron on the squad and he is playing 12 mpg when he should be playing much more vs 2004 Lebron on the squad.

You’re trying to dance around when your intent was clear.

You stated:
“Lebron won bronze medal twice for the USA as well while KD only won gold medals for the USA.”

It’s obvious that it was a criticism against LeBron. Him and KD both have won two gold medals for Team USA. And anyway, almost no one cares about gold medals when it comes to GOAT arguments. They’re only brought up when you run out of NBA accomplishments to point to.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#118 » by KTM_2813 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:45 pm

VDT wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
VDT wrote:Lebron is better, Durant gives you probably the higher ceiling if you have a lot of talent, as he doesnt have to dominate the ball.

That's probably true in theory, but... who do you even want with the ball on their hands before LeBron?

The answer is probably limited to... Magic and Nash? And even then, is a lesser-role LeBron (more focused on defense/extra passes/screens/running the break/etc) even worse than Durant?


It's not so much who you want with the ball in his hands (which is probably too vague) but how can he coexist with other talented players.

Jordan for a year had pg duties and averaged 32.5/8/8 but the team took off only when Pippen was allowed to handle the ball more and Jordan played a more specialized role. His all around stats were lower but it gave his teammates room to breathe and as a result the team became better. Imagine if Jordan was not able/willing to play in a more off ball role. The Bulls might have still won a title or two (certainly less than they did) but Pippen would look worse as he wouldnt have been allowed to play to his strengths (people might even have complained that Jordan had no help) and overall the team would be worse.

I am trying to say that there is value in being able to have a more specialized role to allow other players to flourish and conversely there is a price to pay when a player dominates the ball too much. Lebron's all around game is impressive but at the same time his inability to assume a different role makes it hard to have a good synergy with other stars . It is probably the reason that despite all the talent he played with, he never had a particularly dominant team.


You covered a lot of ground in this post, and I have some thoughts that I want to share. Thanks for starting this discussion.

The first point I want to address is LeBron never having a particularly dominant team. I think that this ultimately boils down to the definition of "dominant". A reasonable argument can be made that he has captained at least one, perhaps even two of the top-twenty teams of all-time (see Sansterre's Top 100 project). The 2013 Heat also won 27 games in a row, which I believe is the third-longest streak ever. Those examples seem pretty dominant to me. We can of course alter the definition of "dominant" to mean something like "unassailable top-ten team ever", in which case none of LeBron's teams qualify, but in my mind that's a bit strict. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

The second point I want to address is the idea of coexisting with other talent and having synergy with other stars. In my opinion, LeBron has generally played in a way that requires the ball in his hands and forces his teammates into very specific roles (not all the time, such as 2013). However, the goal of any basketball player is to maximize his team's success, not necessarily to achieve the most beautiful, harmonious offense. What LeBron does has historically been extremely effective, and generally maximizes his team's results. It's also produced the most valuable versions of two stars in particular: Irving and Davis. Perhaps they didn't have their best statistics, but they likely achieved the best versions of themselves by dominating in secondary roles, as opposed to less impressive returns as primary options on worse teams.

The final point I want to address is that LeBron's teams have not been particularly dominant because of his ball-dominance. I think it's worth noting that a team's performance is generally comprised by four factors: offense, defense, health, and quality of opposition. LeBron's offensive style of play only impacts offense, and in that regard, his teams have generally been excellent and sometimes historic. Unfortunately, when I review each season of his career, I see a borderline unluckiness with regards to his team's ability to check off all four boxes. Examples: 2017 Cavaliers were perhaps the best playoff offense ever, but their defense stunk and they went up against the 2017 Warriors; 2015 Cavaliers were decimated by injuries in the Finals; 2020 Lakers were excellent defensively but had major offensive holes. At the end of the day, I think his lacking a 2001-Lakers domination year is more complicated than simply his ball-dominance.

Cheers!
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#119 » by uberhikari » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:33 pm

McBubbles wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
So LeBron won a bronze medal for the USA while playing 10 mins off the bench? I love how you have been called out multiple times for saying this but won't quit your borderline trolling.

Lebron averaged roughly 12 mpg in the Olympics that year that is the same amount of minutes Hakeem averaged in 1996. It’s more than Stockton averaged in either the 1992 and 1996 Olympics. Had they lost they would get the same blame especially if we are talking about an all time great.


I'm probably going to get some sort of mod warning for this but on a completely separate note, are people sure JordansBulls isn't a troll? I've been lurking on this forum for a long time and they've legitimately never made an argument that isn't completely terrible. It's like they're a bot that searches the web for a players record with HCA and spits it out with no context.


I add people like JordansBulls as a foe, so I never have to read what they write in any thread. I probably have like 20 people on my foe list.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#120 » by Franco » Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:21 am

JordansBulls wrote:
parapooper wrote:2004 against Argentina the most minutes went to Iverson, Marbury, Marion, Odom and Boozer in that order.
Those guys got 10x the playing time LeBron got and more than Tim Duncan.

Iverson (age 29) played 31 min and scored 10 pts on 37.5% TS
Wade (age 22) played 19 min and scored 2 pts on 12.5% TS
LeBron (age 19) played 3 min and scored 3 pts on 150% TS

But somehow the loss is LeBron's fault?


Never said it was his fault in 2004, said he ended up winning bronze medal on the 2004 Olympic team. Let’s reverse it say they won gold medal would we not say he won 3 straight Olympic gold medals in basketball? Or would we say 2004 doesn’t count?


Yes. Who in the flying **** even brings up the olympics on this board besides you?
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euroleague wrote:His team would be considered a super-team in other eras, and that's why commentators like Charles Barkley criticize LBJ for his complaining. He has talent on his team, he just doesn't try during the regular season

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