Kevin Durant or Lebron James?

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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#141 » by Greyhound » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:28 am

70sFan wrote:
Dupp wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


Tbh lebrons d in the 17 finals was really bad and KDs was decent ( with way more hep). Everything either side of that series basically i agree.

It's easier to defend when you have so much help on both sides of the ball. Cavs basically decided to forget about defense and try to outscore GSW, which wasn't possible anyway.

Overall KD was never great defender, James showed a lot of times that he could be elite defensively at various stages of his career.

I was just about to post this exact same response.

Thank you for saving me the time sir.

LeBron’s defense in those two season’s was poor by his standards, but I think people have begun to overstate how bad.

No wing player with LeBron’s offensive load was going to look good defensively on those god awfully poor defensive Cavaliers teams. It would have been wasted energy for LeBron and he realized that.

Individually Durant has never been a better defender than LeBron, ever.
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Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#142 » by Greyhound » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:50 am

feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Gooner wrote:KD proved in the finals that he was better. I don't know what LeBron did better than him at that point.

Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

Durant played with an excellent defensive supporting cast and had less load to carry on offense. He could allocate energy towards defense that LeBron did not have the luxury of doing.

LeBron played with horrible defensive casts those two seasons. He could have played the best defense he could’ve possibly played and the defensive breakdowns would’ve still come from somewhere else in the lineup.

The end result would’ve been wasted effort that would’ve had a negative collateral affect on the ultimate goal of securing wins.

...

This season is an interesting one.

LeBron plays on the best defensive team in the league and his defensive numbers look excellent. Durrant on the other hand plays on one of the worst defensive teams in the league and his defensive numbers don’t look so great.

Yet somehow, this perception of LeBron and Durant being similar on the defensive end still persists. It’s absolute proof that old narratives die hard.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#143 » by Dupp » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:24 am

Greyhound wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dupp wrote:
Tbh lebrons d in the 17 finals was really bad and KDs was decent ( with way more hep). Everything either side of that series basically i agree.

It's easier to defend when you have so much help on both sides of the ball. Cavs basically decided to forget about defense and try to outscore GSW, which wasn't possible anyway.

Overall KD was never great defender, James showed a lot of times that he could be elite defensively at various stages of his career.

I was just about to post this exact same response.

Thank you for saving me the time sir.

LeBron’s defense in those two season’s was poor by his standards, but I think people have begun to overstate how bad.

No wing player with LeBron’s offensive load was going to look good defensively on those god awfully poor defensive Cavaliers teams. It would have been wasted energy for LeBron and he realized that.

Individually Durant has never been a better defender than LeBron, ever.



None of what either of you said really goes against what I said though. Lebron just was terrible defensively in the 17 finals. That season lebron wasn’t even bad or average he was really really good defensively.

His load was no more than the finals either side of 2017. He just had a terrible defensive series. A lot of that was game plan and stuff but still it was not good.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#144 » by freethedevil » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:37 am

Dupp wrote:
Greyhound wrote:
70sFan wrote:It's easier to defend when you have so much help on both sides of the ball. Cavs basically decided to forget about defense and try to outscore GSW, which wasn't possible anyway.

Overall KD was never great defender, James showed a lot of times that he could be elite defensively at various stages of his career.

I was just about to post this exact same response.

Thank you for saving me the time sir.

LeBron’s defense in those two season’s was poor by his standards, but I think people have begun to overstate how bad.

No wing player with LeBron’s offensive load was going to look good defensively on those god awfully poor defensive Cavaliers teams. It would have been wasted energy for LeBron and he realized that.

Individually Durant has never been a better defender than LeBron, ever.



None of what either of you said really goes against what I said though. Lebron just was terrible defensively in the 17 finals. That season lebron wasn’t even bad or average he was really really good defensively.

His load was no more than the finals either side of 2017. He just had a terrible defensive series. A lot of that was game plan and stuff but still it was not good.

I mean, Lebron was a clear positive defensively in the regular season and ramped it up fo the first three rounds. What are you basing him being terrible defensively in the finals off? His main assignment was cutting off curry and greeen right?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#145 » by feyki » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:53 pm

Greyhound wrote:
feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

Durant played with an excellent defensive supporting cast and had less load to carry on offense. He could allocate energy towards defense that LeBron did not have the luxury of doing.

LeBron played with horrible defensive casts those two seasons. He could have played the best defense he could’ve possibly played and the defensive breakdowns would’ve still come from somewhere else in the lineup.

The end result would’ve been wasted effort that would’ve had a negative collateral affect on the ultimate goal of securing wins.

...

This season is an interesting one.

LeBron plays on the best defensive team in the league and his defensive numbers look excellent. Durrant on the other hand plays on one of the worst defensive teams in the league and his defensive numbers don’t look so great.

Yet somehow, this perception of LeBron and Durant being similar on the defensive end still persists. It’s absolute proof that old narratives die hard.


His usages bumped to %29 in GSW from %31 in OKC and his block rates jumped almost 2x. I don't think %2 usage rate could be that much effect. So, I disagree with that arguement.

Actually, Lebron's this year is arguably the worst defensive year of his career, individually.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#146 » by JN61 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:03 am

I Take Durant. He showed clutchness and rising under pressure we haven't seen from LeBron.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#147 » by GYK » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:27 am

Nobodies defense in those Durant Dubs vs Cavs finals was anything special. Those were the two greatest finals offenses of all time. If the Cavs faced anyone else they probably smash them.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#148 » by Bayaz » Yesterday 2:03 am

After seeing how he's returned from what is generally a career ending injury, the answer is clearly Durant.

If you want a player that will fill up the stat sheet en route to making your team a sure fire title contender? Go with LeBron. However, if you want an ATG team or potential dynasty, you take Durant & you don't look back. LBJ can't pass, initiate an offense, or control the pace of play well enough to be valued over Durant's ability to play at an ATG level without diminishing, and/or taking away from other All NBA caliber players.

It doesn't matter the context, Durant's unique(literal one of one) combination of size, skill, and shooting ability makes it so easy for him to score, you can pretty much slot him on any team and they'll be competitive simply by virtue of him being indefensible. Need proof? Look at those poorly constructed OKC teams, where he played without spacing, shooters, and a poor decision maker at PG for the majority of his tenure. They reached the WCF Finals or Finals every year he was healthy until he left for GS, and haven't been relevant since.

And what did he do with GS? Only elevate them to arguably the greatest team of all time, rivaled only by Jordan's Bulls, Shaq & Kobe's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, & Showtime. At their height, the Warriors were far and away better than any team LeBron's been featured on, regardless of how much input he's had on rosters, or how many HoF teammates he's played with. Despite it all, he's never been able to lead a team to a level of consistent dominance that we witnessed from GS.

Before I receive the usual rebuttals, I'll address them now:

- GS won before Durant, but only because Kyrie & Love were hurt in 14-15. Had they played in series it's reasonable to assume Cleveland would've beaten them, given they did so the very next season.

- After going 73-9 in the regular season, 15-16 Warriors limped through the playoffs, losing nine games in the total before ultimately losing the finals. The 17-18 Warriors lost one playoff game.

- If you put LBJ on that GS in place of Durant, he'd take the ball away from Draymond & Steph, change the style of play, etc. They'd be a completely different team than they were with Durant.

- Durant was clearly GS's best scoring option when games slowed down & defenses got tighter in the post season, which is why they pursued him to begin with.


Now he's doing it again with Brooklyn, a franchise that has never won an NBA title, with teammates who are allegedly cancerous & problematic. So much so, that pundits, analyst, and fans everywhere predicted they'd implode upon construction. So much for that, eh?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#149 » by dcstanley » Today 2:51 am

Those OKC teams were constructed in a way that would allow KD to focus on his only elite skill- scoring. They had one of the best guards in the league to completely alleviate KD of the playmaking burden and elite defensive players to allow KD to put forth minimal defensive effort. The Thunder flamed out in the first round the season Westbrook was injured so you can call him a poor decision maker but he was as (or perhaps more) important to OKC's success as Durant. To corroborate this, look at Westbrook and Durant's impact metrics between 2012-2016. Westbrook was more impactful in both the 2014 playoffs and the 2016 playoffs. KD's efficiency and overall impact dropped considerably from the regular season to the postseason in those years.

Durant in OKC after 2012:
29.1 pts per game, 39.3 pts per 100, 22.79 tsa per game, 0.638 ts in regular season games (+10.0 rts)
29.4 pts per game, 35.8 pts per 100, 26.26 tsa per game, 0.561 ts in playoff games (+2.5 rts)


Lebron has never been on a team as great as the Warriors because he never joined a 73-9 team in his prime. It's really as simple as that. How many teams has Lebron been on that could contend for a conference championship without him? Maybe the 2010-2011 Heat and even that is a little murky because of how top heavy that team was. The Warriors won 67 games and 73 games in back to back seasons and would have been back to back champions if it weren't for inopportune injuries and suspensions.

The Heat had dominant stretches of basketball but injuries to Wade and Bosh shortened their prime and limited the team's ceiling. Do you really believe the Heat wouldn't be one of the most dominant teams of all time if prime Lebron was able to play with say 2006-2009 Wade and Bosh with support pieces akin to Klay Thompson and Iguodala? The talent advantage those Warriors teams had is really second to none.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#150 » by Bayaz » 57 minutes ago

dcstanley wrote:Those OKC teams were constructed in a way that would allow KD to focus on his only elite skill- scoring.


They were poorly constructed, featuring two offensive negatives in their starting rotation: Perkins, Roberson. They were also poorly coached, lacked spacing/shooters, and allowed a poor decision maker to dominate the ball. How was that ideal for Durant?

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