Kevin Durant or Lebron James?

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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#61 » by VDT » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:21 pm

Homer38 wrote:
VDT wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
The spurs were much better in 2014 that the heat at this point.Also in 2017,LBJ had 33-12-10 on 56% against the second best defense in the league in 2017.....


The Heat had won the last finals and the Spur's main players were much older than the Heat's stars. If anything one would expect the Heat to win more comfortably that year. The entire argument that the Spurs were some juggernaut in 2014 that Lebron could do nothing against is revisionist history.



You should know that age is just a number sometimes .... I mean in 2014 Manu, Parker and Duncan were still playing at a high level despite their age ... Much higher than Wade in 2013 and 2014....And the depth of the spurs was also a huge advantage...I mean they had 62-20 in 2014 (best record in the NBA) despite no player having played 30 minutes per game during the regular season.

The 2014 spurs are so underrated....At least one of the best 3 champions since 2002.They had no weakness.

Those who judge a team only by their age is not a good way to judge a team .... Not because one player is older than the other means that he is washed or less good than the other .... Every player is different ....

The 2013 spurs are also underrated even if their 2014 teams were better ....Much better team than their 58-24 record


You misunderstood me. I am not saying that the Spurs were old and washed up . I am saying that the Heat managed to beat the same team the year before and since the main stars of the Spurs were older than those of the Heat, whose players were in their prime years, other than Wade maybe, i dont see any reason to believe that the Spurs were some kind of juggernaut that the Heat could never hope to beat. If anything one would expect the opposite, the younger Heat to win more convincingly.

This idea that Lebron could have done nothing against the Spurs is revisionist history and doesnt make much sense if you think about it. How can you beat the same team one year and suddenly have no chance the year after, especially when said team is older than you.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#62 » by VDT » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:31 pm

sansterre wrote:
VDT wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
The spurs were much better in 2014 that the heat at this point.Also in 2017,LBJ had 33-12-10 on 56% against the second best defense in the league in 2017.....


The Heat had won the last finals and the Spur's main players were much older than the Heat's stars. If anything one would expect the Heat to win more comfortably that year. The entire argument that the Spurs were some juggernaut in 2014 that Lebron could do nothing against is revisionist history.

Except that:

The Heat barely won the 2013 Finals
In 2014 The Heat won 54 games while the Spurs won 62
The Heat posted an SRS of +4.15, the Spurs an SRS of +8.00

The Heat's three series before the Finals were:

A +9.8 MoV sweep over the -0.9 SRS Hawks
A +5.4 MoV 5-game win over the -1.6 SRS Nets
A +6.5 MoV 6-game win over the +3.6 SRS Pacers (note that all three of these teams are quite weak, and the wins, while solid, are hardly blowouts)

The Spurs' three series before the Finals were:

A +2.0 MoV 7-game win over the +2.9 SRS Mavs
A +13.4 MoV 5-game win over the +4.4 SRS Blazers
A +10.5 MoV 6-game win over the +6.7 SRS Thunder (Note that the teams that the Spurs played were much better, and two of the series (against the two best teams) were blowouts

In other words, every freaking objective factor used to evaluate teams *screams* that the '14 Spurs were the better team. By a lot.

I don't think anyone expected the Spurs to obliterate the Heat the way that they did. But the Spurs were obviously the better team that year. That they were better in an unusual way (the perfect blend of aging veterans, young phenoms and incredibly skilled bench) doesn't make them less good.



You just said it, the Heat had just won the year before. I am not saying that the Spurs were a bad team, but they were the same team (only older!!) as in 2013. Let's not pretend that the Heat had no chance to beat this team and Lebron shouldnt take any blame for those finals.

To make a more controversial point, the fact that Lebron in his peak years barely managed to beat a team with no superstar like the Spurs in 2013 doesnt make him look great either. Those Spurs were good teams, but how many teams without a superstar have won the NBA title? Conversely, how many Lebron teams have been dominant? Not many, if any at all, despite him handpicking his teammates and constantly colluding with other superstars.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#63 » by feyki » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:10 pm

70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better passer, better defender, better leader, better ball-handler, better rebounder, better P&R player... can I stop now?


I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

It's much easier to play defense when you don't have to carry the offensive load. Once James got a good support on offense, he surpassed anything KD did on defense again - see 2020.


Durant's offensive load was not any less from James'. I also think his Rox series was more impressive than any of KD had(defensively), but his offensive load was also extremely high. He may have not higher volume scoring as much as 17,18; but his playmaking volume was much higher than any of James' year.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#64 » by Jaivl » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:31 pm

VDT wrote:You just said it, the Heat had just won the year before. I am not saying that the Spurs were a bad team, but they were the same team (only older!!) as in 2013. Let's not pretend that the Heat had no chance to beat this team and Lebron shouldnt take any blame for those finals.

Heat should probably have been the favourites on preseason, that'd be fair, but once the Finals rolled around there should not have been a question as for which team was better, and it was the Spurs, by far.

Of course nobody expected such a blowout, but, considering the context, putting the burden on LeBron just seems like an extremely unfair take.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#65 » by 70sFan » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:07 pm

feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:
I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

It's much easier to play defense when you don't have to carry the offensive load. Once James got a good support on offense, he surpassed anything KD did on defense again - see 2020.


Durant's offensive load was not any less from James'. I also think his Rox series was more impressive than any of KD had(defensively), but his offensive load was also extremely high. He may have not higher volume scoring as much as 17,18; but his playmaking volume was much higher than any of James' year.

Wait, what?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#66 » by feyki » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:23 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Djoker wrote:If the question who was the better basketball player in those years it's Lebron by a noticeable but definitely not a big margin. KD is a better scorer and defender at this point. Lebron obviously had a huge edge in playmaking.

Re: Defense, you've alrady demonstrated no amoutn of evidence can sway you so thi sisn't for you, this is for everyone reading:
Lebron dpipm 2017:
+1.1
Durant:
+0.6
RPM 2017 Lebron:
+0.6
Durant:
-0.5
D-LEBRON ironically gives durant a marginal edge in the regualr season(+0.88-+0.5), but the other emtrics rate lebron as twice as more or more valuable defensively and all these metirics are rating lebron in the regulars season when he was coasting.

Durant's metrics are generlaly in line with what he did in okc and Lebron was his teams' defensive anchor and priamry paint potector up until 2018, so I don't see much reason to think durant magically became a better defender than lebron when he turned 30.

The warriors were the best poseason defense of the 10's before durant and there's nothing suggesting they got substantially better defensvely with him. Durant's infalted reputation here, like in most regards, seems to be derived from a blatant disregard for basic context.


Lebron was vastly better than durant prior to his arrival on the warriors, and then, as shown when durant faced a modicum of adversity, he was still the far better player.


Lebron was worse in totals of two years in both RPM and PİPM. You cherrypicked the numbers, just.

Durant's PT-PM was 1.7 compared to James -0.25 in the 2017, btw. I did not find 2018 list.

70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:It's much easier to play defense when you don't have to carry the offensive load. Once James got a good support on offense, he surpassed anything KD did on defense again - see 2020.


Durant's offensive load was not any less from James'. I also think his Rox series was more impressive than any of KD had(defensively), but his offensive load was also extremely high. He may have not higher volume scoring as much as 17,18; but his playmaking volume was much higher than any of James' year.

Wait, what?


So, What? I don't remember when was the last time I did listen Metallica's "so what", it has to be too many years; thanks to you.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#67 » by Threetimes10 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:07 pm

Gooner wrote:...I don't know...


Summarized your post for you.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#68 » by Homer38 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:30 pm

VDT wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
VDT wrote:
The Heat had won the last finals and the Spur's main players were much older than the Heat's stars. If anything one would expect the Heat to win more comfortably that year. The entire argument that the Spurs were some juggernaut in 2014 that Lebron could do nothing against is revisionist history.



You should know that age is just a number sometimes .... I mean in 2014 Manu, Parker and Duncan were still playing at a high level despite their age ... Much higher than Wade in 2013 and 2014....And the depth of the spurs was also a huge advantage...I mean they had 62-20 in 2014 (best record in the NBA) despite no player having played 30 minutes per game during the regular season.

The 2014 spurs are so underrated....At least one of the best 3 champions since 2002.They had no weakness.

Those who judge a team only by their age is not a good way to judge a team .... Not because one player is older than the other means that he is washed or less good than the other .... Every player is different ....

The 2013 spurs are also underrated even if their 2014 teams were better ....Much better team than their 58-24 record


You misunderstood me. I am not saying that the Spurs were old and washed up . I am saying that the Heat managed to beat the same team the year before and since the main stars of the Spurs were older than those of the Heat, whose players were in their prime years, other than Wade maybe, i dont see any reason to believe that the Spurs were some kind of juggernaut that the Heat could never hope to beat. If anything one would expect the opposite, the younger Heat to win more convincingly.

This idea that Lebron could have done nothing against the Spurs is revisionist history and doesnt make much sense if you think about it. How can you beat the same team one year and suddenly have no chance the year after, especially when said team is older than you.


The fact that Ginobili was much better in 2014 than in 2013(look at his stats in the 2013 finals vs 2014 finals,it was night and day!) and that the heat lost a key players in the 2013 finals like Mike Miller and that players like Mario Chalmers were awful in the finals and Battier was washed in 2014, all of his reasons together mean that every years can be very different and it has nothing to do with LBJ.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#69 » by Jaivl » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:44 pm

feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:
Durant's offensive load was not any less from James'. I also think his Rox series was more impressive than any of KD had(defensively), but his offensive load was also extremely high. He may have not higher volume scoring as much as 17,18; but his playmaking volume was much higher than any of James' year.

Wait, what?


So, What? I don't remember when was the last time I did listen Metallica's "so what", it has to be too many years; thanks to you.

Wait, what? How can you even begin to justify that Durant's playmaking load was bigger than James''?

Like, it's such a weird take I can't even begin to comprehend it. Durant didn't even have the highest playmaking load on his team - that's probably true for nearly every year of his prime, but ESPECIALLY 2017/18. LeBron pretty much laps him by every creation measure I can imagine.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#70 » by feyki » Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:07 pm

Jaivl wrote:
feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Wait, what?


So, What? I don't remember when was the last time I did listen Metallica's "so what", it has to be too many years; thanks to you.

Wait, what? How can you even begin to justify that Durant's playmaking load was bigger than James''?

Like, it's such a weird take I can't even begin to comprehend it. Durant didn't even have the highest playmaking load on his team - that's probably true for nearly every year of his prime, but ESPECIALLY 2017/18. LeBron pretty much laps him by every creation measure I can imagine.


I was talking about 2020 James :roll: .
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#71 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:47 am

feyki wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
feyki wrote:

So, What? I don't remember when was the last time I did listen Metallica's "so what", it has to be too many years; thanks to you.

Wait, what? How can you even begin to justify that Durant's playmaking load was bigger than James''?

Like, it's such a weird take I can't even begin to comprehend it. Durant didn't even have the highest playmaking load on his team - that's probably true for nearly every year of his prime, but ESPECIALLY 2017/18. LeBron pretty much laps him by every creation measure I can imagine.


I was talking about 2020 James :roll: .

I'm still a bit confused. Can you rewrite what you're trying to say?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#72 » by feyki » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:53 am

feyki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:
I'm curious about the defence. Durant had improved a lot, defensively; with the GSW. And Lebron did not stand his 2016 Finals defensive impact. Not just 2016 Finals, he was much worse than 08-13 James, too.

I'd think Lebron was better, offensively. His rebounding and specially playmaking gap is too big. But also don't think there were much difference between them.

Thread is getting out of the way, btw.

It's much easier to play defense when you don't have to carry the offensive load. Once James got a good support on offense, he surpassed anything KD did on defense again - see 2020.


Durant's offensive load was not any less from James'. I also think his(2020Lebron's) Rox series was more impressive than any of KD had(defensively), but his(2020Lebron's) offensive load was also extremely high. He(2020 Lebron) may have not higher volume scoring as much as 17,18; but his playmaking volume was much higher than any of James' year.


Subject edit on instense interest..
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#73 » by nzahir » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:41 am

One guy has played with 0 mvps in their prime or near prime

One guy has played with 3 mvps in their primes now

And the guy who has played with 0 mvps has twice the amount of rings, has better all time playoff scoring outbursts, is a much much much better playmaker and ballhandler, a better rebounder, a better defender, a better leader, and a better clutch player

KD is a better shooter than Lebron, sure

Lebron does everything better

KD ruined his legacy ceiling with the GS team

And now instead of just trying to win with a very good squad, he needs to go and basically cheat again and get another prime mvp winner

Why is KD so scared of Lebron?
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#74 » by VanWest82 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:57 am

Lebron was the better offensive player in 17 & 18 but some of these arguments seem pretty biased and one-sided. For starters, KD was easily the better and more engaged defender those years. Do we have to go digging up clips and memes from that period of Lebron standing in the same spot for entire defensive possessions? He was a total DH. His improved effort this year and last means nothing in terms of the state of his defense with Cavs.

wrt the Finals, their game scores were basically identical - KD had a slight advantage in 17, Bron in 18 - so even though KD had the better teammates it's not like Lebron outperformed him independent of that. KD's rim protection those series was huge, and he's the one with the two FMVPs.

RE leadership, KD sacrificed his game those years (way more off ball play) for the betterment of the team. He fit in. Meanwhile, Kyrie demanded a trade summer of 2017 because he was pissed at Bron for trying to pull strings and having his name included in trade rumors. Lebron also stopped trying for three weeks and got half his team traded in 2018, and then punched a wall in 2018 Finals and compromised the series. Does that make KD the better leader? Maybe not, but let's not pretend like Lebron was Barack Obama during that period.

Again, I'd still take Lebron. He's been the best player in the world since 2012. KD landed a lot of good shots on him in those Finals though. This thread isn't as ridiculous as some of you are making it out to be.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#75 » by Cavsfansince84 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:58 am

VanWest82 wrote:
RE leadership, KD sacrificed his game those years (way more off ball play) for the betterment of the team. He fit in. Meanwhile, Kyrie demanded a trade summer of 2017 because he was pissed at Bron for trying to pull strings and having his name included in trade rumors. Lebron also stopped trying for three weeks and got half his team traded in 2018, and then punched a wall in 2018 Finals and compromised the series. Does that make KD the better leader? Maybe not, but let's not pretend like Lebron was Barack Obama during that period.

Again, I'd still take Lebron. He's been the best player in the world since 2012. KD landed a lot of good shots on him in those Finals though. This thread isn't as ridiculous as some of you are making it out to be.


This is this is the primary issue I've had in this specific debate since 2018 though. In the nba, when top offensive guys get hot it doesn't matter who is guarding them much less a guy like Durant with his insane length. People use him having a hot hand particularly in one finals and being very good in the other way too often as the main criteria to compare these guys over those two years imo.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#76 » by dcstanley » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:17 am

VDT wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
VDT wrote:
The Heat had won the last finals and the Spur's main players were much older than the Heat's stars. If anything one would expect the Heat to win more comfortably that year. The entire argument that the Spurs were some juggernaut in 2014 that Lebron could do nothing against is revisionist history.



You should know that age is just a number sometimes .... I mean in 2014 Manu, Parker and Duncan were still playing at a high level despite their age ... Much higher than Wade in 2013 and 2014....And the depth of the spurs was also a huge advantage...I mean they had 62-20 in 2014 (best record in the NBA) despite no player having played 30 minutes per game during the regular season.

The 2014 spurs are so underrated....At least one of the best 3 champions since 2002.They had no weakness.

Those who judge a team only by their age is not a good way to judge a team .... Not because one player is older than the other means that he is washed or less good than the other .... Every player is different ....

The 2013 spurs are also underrated even if their 2014 teams were better ....Much better team than their 58-24 record


You misunderstood me. I am not saying that the Spurs were old and washed up . I am saying that the Heat managed to beat the same team the year before and since the main stars of the Spurs were older than those of the Heat, whose players were in their prime years, other than Wade maybe, i dont see any reason to believe that the Spurs were some kind of juggernaut that the Heat could never hope to beat. If anything one would expect the opposite, the younger Heat to win more convincingly.

This idea that Lebron could have done nothing against the Spurs is revisionist history and doesnt make much sense if you think about it. How can you beat the same team one year and suddenly have no chance the year after, especially when said team is older than you.

Because the Heat got worse? The Spurs had four players that performed better than Wade. You aren't winning in the finals if the secondary option is performing worse than multiple players on the opposing team.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#77 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:49 am

nzahir wrote:One guy has played with 0 mvps in their prime or near prime

One guy has played with 3 mvps in their primes now

And the guy who has played with 0 mvps has twice the amount of rings, has better all time playoff scoring outbursts, is a much much much better playmaker and ballhandler, a better rebounder, a better defender, a better leader, and a better clutch player

KD is a better shooter than Lebron, sure

Lebron does everything better

KD ruined his legacy ceiling with the GS team

And now instead of just trying to win with a very good squad, he needs to go and basically cheat again and get another prime mvp winner

Why is KD so scared of Lebron?


To be fair you can't really blame Durant for James Harden joining the Nets.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#78 » by 70sFan » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:45 am

I still don't get all this fetishizing about KD's defenze in Warriors. It has to be the most media-driven agenda in last 5 years or so. Sure, KD improved on defense with lesser offensive load but he was never a great defender and raving about his rim protection is completely baseless.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#79 » by Gooner » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:48 am

nzahir wrote:One guy has played with 0 mvps in their prime or near prime

One guy has played with 3 mvps in their primes now

And the guy who has played with 0 mvps has twice the amount of rings, has better all time playoff scoring outbursts, is a much much much better playmaker and ballhandler, a better rebounder, a better defender, a better leader, and a better clutch player

KD is a better shooter than Lebron, sure

Lebron does everything better

KD ruined his legacy ceiling with the GS team

And now instead of just trying to win with a very good squad, he needs to go and basically cheat again and get another prime mvp winner

Why is KD so scared of Lebron?


MVP's don't matter. Westbrook has one, but is he better than Wade? Absolutely not. And KD has only played like 10 games with prime Harden as of right now, but I guess that matters in this argument. LeBron has twice the amount of rings for now, but he is 36, KD is still playing like in his prime, and he was injured last year, LeBron never had a season ending injury. Winning 4 rings in 17 years is not against the odds with the kind of help he had.

If we compare skills, KD is just better on the "eye test". LeBron is a better playmaker, but that's his role, he is a point forward. That's the only thing he is distinctly better at than KD. Don't give me rebounding, Lebron averages like 0.5 rebounds more in his career. I'll give ball handling edge to KD, he can actually cross people up instead of just bulldozing through them every time. And it's hard to argue for LeBron beign a better clutch player after 2017 and 2018 finals when KD took over when LeBron refused to.
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Re: Kevin Durant or Lebron James? 

Post#80 » by freethedevil » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:51 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
RE leadership, KD sacrificed his game those years (way more off ball play) for the betterment of the team. He fit in. Meanwhile, Kyrie demanded a trade summer of 2017 because he was pissed at Bron for trying to pull strings and having his name included in trade rumors. Lebron also stopped trying for three weeks and got half his team traded in 2018, and then punched a wall in 2018 Finals and compromised the series. Does that make KD the better leader? Maybe not, but let's not pretend like Lebron was Barack Obama during that period.

Again, I'd still take Lebron. He's been the best player in the world since 2012. KD landed a lot of good shots on him in those Finals though. This thread isn't as ridiculous as some of you are making it out to be.


This is this is the primary issue I've had in this specific debate since 2018 though. In the nba, when top offensive guys get hot it doesn't matter who is guarding them much less a guy like Durant with his insane length. People use him having a hot hand particularly in one finals and being very good in the other way too often as the main criteria to compare these guys over those two years imo.

Durant shot just as well from three in the rockets series yet his effiency skyrocketed by 10 points vs the cavs. The real issue here is acting like asketball is some 1 on 1 sport where defenses have no option but to throw a short dude on a big dude and hope for the bets.

The reason why his numbers skyrocketed was because he was left in single coverage making it very, very easy to score at the rim. This is why "no one can stop him" needs to stop being taken serously as an argument. Durant has been stopped routinely when facing the right coverage in the postseason. He did not face that coverage with the cavs. Hence, he shot better.

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