Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert

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Better overall

Peak Ralph Sampson
5
24%
Current Rudy Gobert
16
76%
 
Total votes: 21

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Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#1 » by durantbird » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:00 am

Who's a better overall Center? Peak Sampson or current Gobert?
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:11 am

Gobert is a legit MVP candidate right now, Sampson was all-star level at his best.

It's unfair for Ralph because he never reached his potential because of injuries, but as the things actually happened Gobert surpassed Sampson a long time ago.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#3 » by durantbird » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am

70sFan wrote:Gobert is a legit MVP candidate right now, Sampson was all-star level at his best.

It's unfair for Ralph because he never reached his potential because of injuries, but as the things actually happened Gobert surpassed Sampson a long time ago.

I wouldn't say he's really an MVP candidate
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:31 pm

durantbird wrote:
70sFan wrote:Gobert is a legit MVP candidate right now, Sampson was all-star level at his best.

It's unfair for Ralph because he never reached his potential because of injuries, but as the things actually happened Gobert surpassed Sampson a long time ago.

I wouldn't say he's really an MVP candidate

I would though - he's by far the best player on the best team in the league right now. He anchors 2nd best defense in the league with mediocre defenders like Mitchell, Bogdanovic and Clarskon playing big minutes. He has the best impact and on/off metrics on his team as well.

I bet you'd call Gobert an MVP candidate if he scored 20 ppg, because every other measurement paints him as clearly one of the best players in the league.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#5 » by trex_8063 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm

70sFan wrote:
durantbird wrote:
70sFan wrote:Gobert is a legit MVP candidate right now, Sampson was all-star level at his best.

It's unfair for Ralph because he never reached his potential because of injuries, but as the things actually happened Gobert surpassed Sampson a long time ago.

I wouldn't say he's really an MVP candidate

I would though - he's by far the best player on the best team in the league right now. He anchors 2nd best defense in the league with mediocre defenders like Mitchell, Bogdanovic and Clarskon playing big minutes. He has the best impact and on/off metrics on his team as well.

I bet you'd call Gobert an MVP candidate if he scored 20 ppg, because every other measurement paints him as clearly one of the best players in the league.


Jazz fan [and specifically a Gobert fan] here, have been for some years; but even I'm not sure I'd call Gobert a legit MVP candidate. Is he the best player on the current best team? Yes, he is. But I'm not sure that's the best methodology for deciding the MVP. It's that kind of thinking that got Derrick Rose an MVP when there were clearly more deserving players passed over.

I think Gobert is probably a top-10 player this year, but likely toward the latter end of it.

To my eye the current Jazz success seems very much an ensemble effort. Gobert's awesome, but Donovan has mostly played pretty well, Conley [when healthy] has been fantastic so far this season, and a shout-out to Royce O'Neale (pure 3&D role player, but so important to the team: fits perfectly in their system on offense, spreading the floor and hitting his treys at 42.5% so far, while being their versatile stopper on the other end [one of those guys who is bigger than his numbers]; rebounding really well this year, too).
And then they have probably the best bench in the league right now:
Jordan Clarkson (instant offense, current front-runner for 6MOY in a 6th/7th man role)
Joe Ingles (savvy veteran, clearly above [arguably WELL above] league average player in a 6th/7th man role)
Derrick Favors (weak starter-level player settling for an 8th-man role)
Georges Niang (having a poor shooting year so far; but if the previous TWO ENTIRE SEASONS are any indication, he'll hopefully snap out of his slump at some point, which will make him a very nice 9th-man)

Quin Snyder is a fine head coach, too.


As to question in OP, this is [perhaps easily] Gobert for peak, and easily Gobert for career.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#6 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:39 pm

Gobert isn't an MVP candidate because we don't recognize the value he brings. But put me down that he absolutely should be a top 5 MVP candidate right now. Embiid, Lebron, and Dame are probably the only guys I would consider over him at this point and I definitely think there is a legit case for Gobert.

Jazz media killed him last year with all that screen assist stuff. They weren't wrong, but they were so obnoxious about it that the reality of his offensive value got dismissed due to the hyperbole. But he's not just an elite defensive player, he's a big part of that incredible offensive machine they have going right now.

Poor Ralph Sampson doesn't deserve to be here.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#7 » by Goudelock » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:48 pm

70sFan wrote:Gobert is a legit MVP candidate right now, Sampson was all-star level at his best.

It's unfair for Ralph because he never reached his potential because of injuries, but as the things actually happened Gobert surpassed Sampson a long time ago.


I don't know if Sampson would have ever reached his "full potential" regardless of injury. I was watching a game from 1986 and while he probably would have been happier launching threes in 2021, he didn't have to move much outside of the paint on defense. Aside from whenever he got posted up (which it seems like Olajuwon got the more difficult assignment), Sampson had a pretty easy job. He never had to leave the paint and could contest everything at the rim.

So Sampson played in the best possible era for his defensive skillset and he still didn't look amazing on that end. Same with his offensive contributions, where he just wanted to take 18 footers and be a wing.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:22 pm

Goudelock wrote:
70sFan wrote:Gobert is a legit MVP candidate right now, Sampson was all-star level at his best.

It's unfair for Ralph because he never reached his potential because of injuries, but as the things actually happened Gobert surpassed Sampson a long time ago.


I don't know if Sampson would have ever reached his "full potential" regardless of injury. I was watching a game from 1986 and while he probably would have been happier launching threes in 2021, he didn't have to move much outside of the paint on defense. Aside from whenever he got posted up (which it seems like Olajuwon got the more difficult assignment), Sampson had a pretty easy job. He never had to leave the paint and could contest everything at the rim.

So Sampson played in the best possible era for his defensive skillset and he still didn't look amazing on that end. Same with his offensive contributions, where he just wanted to take 18 footers and be a wing.

Fair enough, Sampson had all the physical tools to be all-time great but he lacked BBIQ and awareness to reach that level.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#9 » by euroleague » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:50 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
durantbird wrote:I wouldn't say he's really an MVP candidate

I would though - he's by far the best player on the best team in the league right now. He anchors 2nd best defense in the league with mediocre defenders like Mitchell, Bogdanovic and Clarskon playing big minutes. He has the best impact and on/off metrics on his team as well.

I bet you'd call Gobert an MVP candidate if he scored 20 ppg, because every other measurement paints him as clearly one of the best players in the league.


Jazz fan [and specifically a Gobert fan] here, have been for some years; but even I'm not sure I'd call Gobert a legit MVP candidate. Is he the best player on the current best team? Yes, he is. But I'm not sure that's the best methodology for deciding the MVP. It's that kind of thinking that got Derrick Rose an MVP when there were clearly more deserving players passed over.

I think Gobert is probably a top-10 player this year, but likely toward the latter end of it.

To my eye the current Jazz success seems very much an ensemble effort. Gobert's awesome, but Donovan has mostly played pretty well, Conley [when healthy] has been fantastic so far this season, and a shout-out to Royce O'Neale (pure 3&D role player, but so important to the team: fits perfectly in their system on offense, spreading the floor and hitting his treys at 42.5% so far, while being their versatile stopper on the other end [one of those guys who is bigger than his numbers]; rebounding really well this year, too).
And then they have probably the best bench in the league right now:
Jordan Clarkson (instant offense, current front-runner for 6MOY in a 6th/7th man role)
Joe Ingles (savvy veteran, clearly above [arguably WELL above] league average player in a 6th/7th man role)
Derrick Favors (weak starter-level player settling for an 8th-man role)
Georges Niang (having a poor shooting year so far; but if the previous TWO ENTIRE SEASONS are any indication, he'll hopefully snap out of his slump at some point, which will make him a very nice 9th-man)

Quin Snyder is a fine head coach, too.


As to question in OP, this is [perhaps easily] Gobert for peak, and easily Gobert for career.


Rudy Gobert is on a great team, but he definitely has an MVP case.

Look at LBJ's team in comparison:
Conley vs Schroeder - no longer favoring Conley, due to age and a surging Schroeder.
Mitchell vs AD - big edge AD
Royce O'Neal vs Wesley Matthews - pretty even
Jordan Clarkson vs KCP - quite similar
Ingles vs Kyle Kuzma - edge Ingles
Favors vs Montrezl Harrel - edge Montrezl
Niang vs Gasol - edge Gasol

Then the Lakers also have Alex Caruso, Talen Horton Tucker, and Markieff Morris, giving them a huge edge in depth, and with AD they have the edge in star-power as well.

The Lakers without Lebron are much more talented than the Jazz without Gobert.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:17 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Gobert isn't an MVP candidate because we don't recognize the value he brings. But put me down that he absolutely should be a top 5 MVP candidate right now. Embiid, Lebron, and Dame are probably the only guys I would consider over him at this point and I definitely think there is a legit case for Gobert.

Jazz media killed him last year with all that screen assist stuff. They weren't wrong, but they were so obnoxious about it that the reality of his offensive value got dismissed due to the hyperbole. But he's not just an elite defensive player, he's a big part of that incredible offensive machine they have going right now.


Yeah, I certainly remember Matt Harpring and Craig Bolerjack going on about the screen assists with regularity. As to whether that turned other media personalities [who do some of the MVP voting] off to Gobert, I have no idea.

A decent screen is a valuable thing [and I do think Gobert is one of the better screen setters]. The other big component of his offensive value [aside from finishing at a high % when he gets it under the rim and/or putitng foul pressure on the defense] is the attention he draws on the roll: Jazz do that high pnr, Rudy rolls toward the hoop, the weakside defender drops into the paint to make sure he's covered, ball gets kicked to weakside corner or wing [depending on how the other weakside defender plays it]--->fairly open trey results.


But still.....
If he is a "legit" [top 5] MVP candidate, my question is: why now [and not years past]?

He's more engaged defensively than he was last year ['20 was probably his weakest defensive effort of the last five years; I think he was too focused on getting a few more touches and finally nabbing that All-Star selection he wanted so bad]; he's back to his DPOY form this year. With the volume of shots he's blocking or changing this year WITHOUT committing undue fouls [he's having a career-low foul rate], and with having a career-best defensive rebounding rate so far.....one could argue he's playing the best defense of his career (though not by a huge degree).

But otoh he's also having his weakest FT-shooting season since '16, lowest AST% since '17 [not that this was ever a major aspect of his game], while playing the lowest mpg since '15. And he otherwise hasn't added anything particularly new to his game.

So on the balance, is he actually notably better [or impacting full games to a greater degree] than he was in recent years past? imo, no. What has changed is that the team around him fits better than ever before, is generally better than ever before, and they're consequently winning more games than ever before.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#11 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:28 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
But still.....
If he is a "legit" [top 5] MVP candidate, my question is: why now [and not years past]?

.


Personally I've had him that high before. I've named him my 1st team center 2 or 3 years in a row prior to last year when Jokic was simply too good to ignore and absolutely considered him to have a top 5 case. The problem has been that the winner has been so clear that it was impossible to make a real case for him. But this year as good as some guys have been, there isn't that Giannis or Steph season that is just overwhelming.

But the other factor is if this run the Jazz are on where they win every night and usually by 15 or more then they've gone from a good 2nd tier West team to the best RS team in the league. Similar bump that Giannis got for DPOY last year--simply can't ignore what the team is doing.

That's maybe not the ideal way to look at it, but I've always put more weight on team success than most.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:49 pm

euroleague wrote:Rudy Gobert is on a great team, but he definitely has an MVP case.


Sure he has a case; I just don't think it's a strong case.

euroleague wrote:Look at LBJ's team in comparison:
Conley vs Schroeder - no longer favoring Conley, due to age and a surging Schroeder.


Couldn't disagree more. I feel like this is based purely on assumption from Conley's age [and lackluster season last year] and Schroeder's age [and the strong season he had last year].
But Conley is FAR outplaying him this season; it's not remotely close....

Schroeder is averaging 14.2/3.6/4.3 @ 54.1% TS and 2.2 topg.
Conley [in marginally less mpg] is averaging 16.5/3.5/5.6 @ 59.4% TS and 1.9 topg.
I'll give Schroeder the little edge defensively at this point, but still. It's not all that close.

In terms of rate metrics, it shakes out like this:
Conley: 19.9 PER, .205 WS/48, +4.2 BPM, +5.5 RPM in 29.2 mpg.
Schroeder: 12.7 PER, .095 WS/48, -2.1 BPM, +1.03 RPM in 31.1 mpg

It simply isn't close so far this season.


euroleague wrote:Mitchell vs AD - big edge AD


Agree.


euroleague wrote:Royce O'Neal vs Wesley Matthews - pretty even


Not sure if you're [grossly] undercrediting O'Neale, or overrating Matthews; but it is not pretty even.
Royce scores at a similar [low] rate, but is doing so while hitting +5.9% better from beyond the arc (also a little better from 2pt range and the FT line). He is the clearly better defender [certainly more versatile--->nightly set to guard whichever is the biggest scoring threat at 2-4], is a FAR better rebounder, and is doing ALL of this while averaging an additional 7 mpg.


euroleague wrote:Jordan Clarkson vs KCP - quite similar


Wow, you have to be EXTREMELY bullish on KCP's defense to even call this one close.
Clarkson is instant offense and energy off the bench, and appears to be the media favorite for 6MOY.
fwiw, rate metrics do not posit them as remotely close....

Clarkson: 19.1 PER, .143 WS/48, +3.0 BPM, +2.63 RPM in 26.2 mpg
KCP: 9.8 PER, .098 WS/48, -1.7 BPM, +0.15 RPM in 25.6 mpg


euroleague wrote:Ingles vs Kyle Kuzma - edge Ingles


Agree. The way Ingles is playing so far, I'd even hedge toward saying this one isn't particularly close.


euroleague wrote:Favors vs Montrezl Harrel - edge Montrezl


Agree.


euroleague wrote:Niang vs Gasol - edge Gasol


Agree.



euroleague wrote:Then the Lakers also have Alex Caruso, Talen Horton Tucker, and Markieff Morris, giving them a huge edge in depth, and with AD they have the edge in star-power as well.


Agree they have better extended depth, but not about the "earlier" depth.
Their starting line-up is far more top-heavy than Utah's, too. LAL is basically two [more or less] MVP candidates (when healthy, anyway), and thus stronger at #1 and #2.
Utah is stronger from #3-8 [with the possible exception of Harrell > Clarkson at 6th]. The Lakers then take over and are stronger #9-12.
I feel Utah has better general "fit" and chemistry, and are better coached, too.

And though they have the better record and SRS right now, my money would be on a healthy Laker squad in a playoff match-up.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#13 » by DQuinn1575 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:16 pm

1980 NIT Final - Sampson as a frosh, McHale, senior about to be #3 pick

McHale 8 pts, 6 rebounds in 39 minutes
Ralph 15 pts, 15 rebounds in 37 minutes - mvp as VIrginia won

soph year - 40 points on SuperBowl Sunday versus Herb Williams and Clark Kellogg Ohio State

Other than those 2 games, every time I watched Sampson play I came away disappointed.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#14 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:40 pm

Sampson could be passive and seemed to want to be a small forward rather than a center. Hakeem's arrival just made Sampson's bad traits worse.

But Sampson was seriously gifted.
Sampson did come through vs the Lakers when Hakeem fouled out.

I am voting Sampson but more on potential or what he was as a rookie than on what he actually accomplished.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#15 » by euroleague » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:44 am

trex_8063 wrote:
euroleague wrote:Rudy Gobert is on a great team, but he definitely has an MVP case.


Sure he has a case; I just don't think it's a strong case.

euroleague wrote:Look at LBJ's team in comparison:
Conley vs Schroeder - no longer favoring Conley, due to age and a surging Schroeder.


Couldn't disagree more. I feel like this is based purely on assumption from Conley's age [and lackluster season last year] and Schroeder's age [and the strong season he had last year].
But Conley is FAR outplaying him this season; it's not remotely close....

Schroeder is averaging 14.2/3.6/4.3 @ 54.1% TS and 2.2 topg.
Conley [in marginally less mpg] is averaging 16.5/3.5/5.6 @ 59.4% TS and 1.9 topg.
I'll give Schroeder the little edge defensively at this point, but still. It's not all that close.

In terms of rate metrics, it shakes out like this:
Conley: 19.9 PER, .205 WS/48, +4.2 BPM, +5.5 RPM in 29.2 mpg.
Schroeder: 12.7 PER, .095 WS/48, -2.1 BPM, +1.03 RPM in 31.1 mpg

It simply isn't close so far this season.


euroleague wrote:Mitchell vs AD - big edge AD


Agree.


euroleague wrote:Royce O'Neal vs Wesley Matthews - pretty even


Not sure if you're [grossly] undercrediting O'Neale, or overrating Matthews; but it is not pretty even.
Royce scores at a similar [low] rate, but is doing so while hitting +5.9% better from beyond the arc (also a little better from 2pt range and the FT line). He is the clearly better defender [certainly more versatile--->nightly set to guard whichever is the biggest scoring threat at 2-4], is a FAR better rebounder, and is doing ALL of this while averaging an additional 7 mpg.


euroleague wrote:Jordan Clarkson vs KCP - quite similar


Wow, you have to be EXTREMELY bullish on KCP's defense to even call this one close.
Clarkson is instant offense and energy off the bench, and appears to be the media favorite for 6MOY.
fwiw, rate metrics do not posit them as remotely close....

Clarkson: 19.1 PER, .143 WS/48, +3.0 BPM, +2.63 RPM in 26.2 mpg
KCP: 9.8 PER, .098 WS/48, -1.7 BPM, +0.15 RPM in 25.6 mpg


euroleague wrote:Ingles vs Kyle Kuzma - edge Ingles


Agree. The way Ingles is playing so far, I'd even hedge toward saying this one isn't particularly close.


euroleague wrote:Favors vs Montrezl Harrel - edge Montrezl


Agree.


euroleague wrote:Niang vs Gasol - edge Gasol


Agree.



euroleague wrote:Then the Lakers also have Alex Caruso, Talen Horton Tucker, and Markieff Morris, giving them a huge edge in depth, and with AD they have the edge in star-power as well.


Agree they have better extended depth, but not about the "earlier" depth.
Their starting line-up is far more top-heavy than Utah's, too. LAL is basically two [more or less] MVP candidates (when healthy, anyway), and thus stronger at #1 and #2.
Utah is stronger from #3-8 [with the possible exception of Harrell > Clarkson at 6th]. The Lakers then take over and are stronger #9-12.
I feel Utah has better general "fit" and chemistry, and are better coached, too.

And though they have the better record and SRS right now, my money would be on a healthy Laker squad in a playoff match-up.

Ignoring AD in your comparison by lumping him with LBJ and Mitchell with Gobert, creates an obvious disadvantage to LA. However, ignoring Bojan Bogdonavich basically equalizes iit.


As to the last point: MVP is a regular season award, not a match-up between two teams. Coaching is quite dependent on the players, much of the time, as superstars will play the way they want regardless of coach. Blatt was arguably the best Xs and Os coach in the league, with his experience internationally.


Schroeder vs Conley - Those numbers are quite close, excepting scoring, which isn't the strength of either of them. High percentages on decent volume heavily inflate PER, without much difference in impact.... WS/48 is a team stat. Last year, I would've said Schroeder was better. This year, Conley is better. But, it's definitely close.

Clarkson vs KCP - cherry picking stats for higher volume/minutes a bit. KCP is the more efficient 3 point shooter and arguably better defender as well, with 60% TS and 42% 3FG vs Clarkson at 59% TS and 38% 3FG. KCP has lower volume because he plays with AD, LBJ, and a bunch of elite offensive players who demand the ball, and he also plays less minutes due to the Lakers absurd depth. I'll give you this one anyways.

Wes Matthews vs Royce O'Neal: Their shooting difference is quite negligible, as they both are very solid 3 point shooters who average 5 points and 7 points per game, respectively. Their main strength is defense, and they aren't far off. Royce O'Neal is better, but it's very negligible and his increased stats is mostly because of far higher minutes. If you combine Caruso and Matthews, they offer more points, assists, steals, and blocks, on only slightly more minutes.

The high-end depth definitely goes to LA with AD. The medium depth goes to Utah with Mitchell/Bojan/Ingles. The bench depth goes to LA again.

In total, I'd say LA's depth is very comparable outside of LBJ and Gobert.
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Re: Ralph Sampson vs Rudy Gobert 

Post#16 » by LewisnotMiller » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:35 am

It's Gobert for me. Peak Sampson was good, but theoretical peak Sampson would have really been something. Never quite made it.

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