Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon

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Which duo?

Kobe/Robinson
13
48%
Paul/Hakeem
14
52%
 
Total votes: 27

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Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#1 » by Matt15 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:20 am

Which duo would you rather build a team around?
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#2 » by kio80 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:43 am

Why is Chris Paul’s name mentioned amongst these legends way above his league?

Are you Chris Paul?


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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#3 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:43 pm

kio80 wrote:Why is Chris Paul’s name mentioned amongst these legends way above his league?

Are you Chris Paul?


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CP3 nearly won the only MVP Kobe Bryant ever got in his 3rd season - why are you acting like he was never a top player in the league lol. They played at the same time...
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#4 » by kio80 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:46 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
kio80 wrote:Why is Chris Paul’s name mentioned amongst these legends way above his league?

Are you Chris Paul?


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CP3 nearly won the only MVP Kobe Bryant ever got in his 3rd season - why are you acting like he was never a top player in the league lol. They played at the same time...


Nope, not even close, he was never ever remotely close to the other players mentioned by OP.

LOL


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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#5 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:52 pm

Sound analysis.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#6 » by sansterre » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:39 pm

To my mind Kobe and Robinson are an extremely good fit. D-Rob is basically a way better version of Pau Gasol, a monster rebounding, good passing (for a big), decent shooting big who works off-ball and carries a massive load on the defense. Gasol was probably the better shooter, but D-Rob was considerably more vertical/explosive, and way ahead of Gasol on defense. I think this would work really well.

The second is really hard to imagine. Hakeem's ball-stopping ISO-post game doesn't necessarily compliment an outstanding point guard. If Hakeem optimized his game around having Paul then I think they'd be a stronger duo, but it requires some imagination to see. Where Kobe and D-Rob we've seen already work, with a worse version of Robinson.

Edited for clarity on Robinson and Gasol's similarities.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#7 » by No-more-rings » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:43 pm

I'd maybe pick CP3/Hakeem if i could trust Paul's health but it's hard to do that.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#8 » by -Luke- » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:45 pm

Both duos would work I think. Kobe wouldn't have much of a problem with Robinson, as Robinson was a very different guy from Shaq. I don't know who someone like Robinson wouldn't have worked with on a personal level. But since Hakeem is one of my favorite players of all time, I'll go with Hakeem/CP3.

Given the choice between Kobe/Robinson and Hakeem/CP3 the future of your franchise looks pretty good either way.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#9 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:48 pm

sansterre wrote:To my mind Kobe and Robinson are an extremely good fit. D-Rob is basically a way better version of Pau Gasol, a monster rebounding, good passing, decent midrange game, rim-running big who works off-ball and carries a massive load on the defense. I think this would work really well.

The second is really hard to imagine. Hakeem's ball-stopping ISO-post game doesn't necessarily compliment an outstanding point guard. If Hakeem optimized his game around having Paul then I think they'd be a stronger duo, but it requires some imagination to see. Where Kobe and D-Rob we've seen already work, with a worse version of Robinson.


Kobe and David are both isolation players also, they stop being isolation players when they don't need to be.

Olajuwon needs someone to get him the ball when he is in the post - CP3 is good at doing that. Every time Hakeem gets good position he can expect an entry pass without risk of being a turnover. That helps fix up one of post offenses biggest weaknesses.

Not to mention they do not occupy the same place in the court.

Just because Hakeem is not a pick and roll monkey doesn't mean he cannot play with a pass first guy.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#10 » by sansterre » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:04 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
sansterre wrote:To my mind Kobe and Robinson are an extremely good fit. D-Rob is basically a way better version of Pau Gasol, a monster rebounding, good passing, decent midrange game, rim-running big who works off-ball and carries a massive load on the defense. I think this would work really well.

The second is really hard to imagine. Hakeem's ball-stopping ISO-post game doesn't necessarily compliment an outstanding point guard. If Hakeem optimized his game around having Paul then I think they'd be a stronger duo, but it requires some imagination to see. Where Kobe and D-Rob we've seen already work, with a worse version of Robinson.


Kobe and David are both isolation players also, they stop being isolation players when they don't need to be.

Olajuwon needs someone to get him the ball when he is in the post - CP3 is good at doing that. Every time Hakeem gets good position he can expect an entry pass without risk of being a turnover. That helps fix up one of post offenses biggest weaknesses.

Not to mention they do not occupy the same place in the court.

Just because Hakeem is not a pick and roll monkey doesn't mean he cannot play with a pass first guy.

Sure, Kobe/ DRob are both pretty ISO players, but neither derives a ton of their value from passing (though both are solid at it). So neither deprives the other from flow-of-the-offense value. We've seen Kobe work with DRob-style players (Pau) and seen DRob work off-ball with a higher-usage player (though a big, not a guard).

Everything involved with forecasting Hakeem to a decent supporting cast is hypothetical. His best teams were a quality 2nd option, 2 shooters and a defensively-minded stretch 4. Hakeem's skills are otherworldly; it just requires more imagination to see them integrate well with a ball-dominant PG.

I'm sure they'd be good; Paul (especially later Paul) could be a pseudo-Drexler. But I look at Kobe and DRob and see an even better combo than the one that powered the extremely good '09-'10 Lakers. I feel like peak Kobe + DRob with an even average supporting cast can win a title in many years. It's way harder to know with Paul/Hakeem because they're such an unusual combination. Obviously we can't know - the above is speculative.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#11 » by G35 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:37 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
sansterre wrote:To my mind Kobe and Robinson are an extremely good fit. D-Rob is basically a way better version of Pau Gasol, a monster rebounding, good passing, decent midrange game, rim-running big who works off-ball and carries a massive load on the defense. I think this would work really well.

The second is really hard to imagine. Hakeem's ball-stopping ISO-post game doesn't necessarily compliment an outstanding point guard. If Hakeem optimized his game around having Paul then I think they'd be a stronger duo, but it requires some imagination to see. Where Kobe and D-Rob we've seen already work, with a worse version of Robinson.


Kobe and David are both isolation players also, they stop being isolation players when they don't need to be.

Olajuwon needs someone to get him the ball when he is in the post - CP3 is good at doing that. Every time Hakeem gets good position he can expect an entry pass without risk of being a turnover. That helps fix up one of post offenses biggest weaknesses.

Not to mention they do not occupy the same place in the court.

Just because Hakeem is not a pick and roll monkey doesn't mean he cannot play with a pass first guy.


Kobe won five titles playing in the triangle.

DRob won two titles playing off of Tim Duncan.

They were isolation players because they had a lack of talent around them, what you would look at is how a player plays next to other great players.

Kobe with Shaq and Pau...how did Shaq and Pau perform?

DRob with Tim Duncan...how did Duncan perform?

That, imo is the testament of a players all around portability...how do you play next to other great players. You can always hypothesize a random pairing but with Kobe and DRob, you actually got to see it and win at the highest level.

CP3 paired with Blake Griffin, Deandre Jordan and a lot of side help i.e. Billups, Reddick, Jamal Crawford with the Clippers

Then he paired with James Harden and we saw how that turned out.

CP3 has had more opportunity to play with star players than a lot of other players, I like CP3 but imo, he did not cash out his chances. I know a lot of people want to point out that Houston almost beat the Warriors but imo, when CP3 lost to the Rockets in 2015 was a bigger loss.

The Clippers should have won, they blew a 15+ point lead, James Harden had a terrible game, and it was Josh Smith, Corey Brewer and Trevor Ariza that brought that Rockets team back. Harden was benched for that 4th quarter where the Clippers could not score.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201505140LAC.html
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#12 » by dygaction » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:24 am

The difference between Robinson and Hakeem is small. Kobe had shown the ability to win championships with Gasol level players.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#13 » by henshao » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:48 am

dygaction wrote:The difference between Robinson and Hakeem is small. Kobe had shown the ability to win championships with Gasol level players.


On the other hand Hakeem has shown the ability to win championships with Kenny Smith level players
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#14 » by Jaivl » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:20 am

sansterre wrote:D-Rob is basically a way better version of Pau Gasol, a monster rebounding, good passing, decent midrange game, rim-running big who works off-ball and carries a massive load on the defense.

That broad strokes characterization is about as similar to Pau Gasol as to Josh Smith, which is to say... not much. Hell, that sounds much more like Carlos Boozer.

Ignoring the defense gap, Pau is a vastly better passer and shooter, a much worse rim runner with about 0.3% of the explosiveness, way more of an inside-out that an outside-in player.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#15 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:19 pm

I'm gonna go with Hakeem and CP3.

Hakeem is already regard as a superior player to Robinson (even though i think it's closer than most people think). Defensively they are close, offensively they would both benefit from playing second fiddle behind an ATG level guard (which they both get in this case). Ultimately, i prefer Hakeem's isolation scoring which would definitely come in handy even more in specific Playoff matchups, and i think he was a bit more consistent of a shooter too. The gap is not big, but good enough to make me trust Hakeem a bit more for offensive production.

Now CP3 versus Kobe... I'm going CP3, man... He's a better offensive engine/augment than Kobe, and ultimately, i prefer that over quibbling who can carry a mediocre cast bereft of scorers better.. And it's not like CP3 is particularly worse in that scenario either... He can't volume score as good as Kobe but the playmaking gap is probably larger in his favor, which is why he was able to make dudes with minimal ability to create for themselves into serious offensive threats on the Hornets and even on the Clippers when Blake was injured...

Funnily enough, with the league getting better and better, ushering in a greater talent pool of offensively capable players (especially multiple guys who have found niches in being able to shoot lights out), this makes me side with Paul even more... Like i said, Paul is an engine/augment... He amplifies the talent around him at a GOAT level. Kobe is elite in that aspect as well, but where he really separates himself from the pack is his ability to carry a large scoring load by himself... And this is becoming increasingly less and less important as, due to natural progression, the average NBA player gets more offensively skilled and competent of contributing either as a sovereign vessel, or a knock down sniper...

And finally, i think we can all agree on the fact that CP3 is simply a better defender than Kobe... Kobe was a capable man defender who could make some advanced offensive reads from time to time, but his motivation/effort on that end was rarely consistent, which is why since basically 2002, most of his defensive metrics paint him as average at best, but sometimes even worse thsn that... It wasn't until his team got really stacked defensively with guys like Bynum, Gasol, Ariza/MWP, Fish that he started looking better again. OTOH, CP3 is one of the best defensive guards of all-time, and still playing great defense at a tender age of 35... His IQ/awareness is GOAT level, his hands/anticipation are GOAT level, he has the strength to not get bullied by much bigger dudes (we're talking about guys like Durant, Paul George, Tatum etc. MASSIVE dudes compared to him). He is a top level communicator and i rarely see him not give effort on defense in order to maximize his emergy for offensive output... In fact, you can frequently find Paul taking the assignment of guarding the other team's best offensive player from guys like Steph all the way to KD... The only reason he isn't one of the best defenders of all-time period is because he is a midget that can't really do much damage in terms of vertically challenging shots which is arguably the most important defensive skill, but every other aspect he is one of the best ever which is why he is still one of the best defensive guards ever, while Kobe is not...
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#16 » by No-more-rings » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:28 pm

limbo wrote:He amplifies the talent around him at a GOAT level. Kobe is elite in that aspect as well, but where he really separates himself from the pack is his ability to carry a large scoring load by himself... And this is becoming increasingly less and less important as, due to natural progression, the average NBA player gets more offensively skilled and competent of contributing either as a sovereign vessel, or a knock down sniper...

Small nitpick here, but I'd argue that's not really true that volume scorers are becoming less and less important. This season there's two guys scoring 30+ ppg and 7 players scoring 28 or more.

Last season there was 3 people scoring 30 ppg or more, and 6 averaging 28 or more.

In Kobe's last prime year presumably 2010 there was only one scoring 30 or more and only 3 averaging 28 or more.

It's simply not true that volume scores aren't still very important and prevalent today.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#17 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:52 pm

G35 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
sansterre wrote:To my mind Kobe and Robinson are an extremely good fit. D-Rob is basically a way better version of Pau Gasol, a monster rebounding, good passing, decent midrange game, rim-running big who works off-ball and carries a massive load on the defense. I think this would work really well.

The second is really hard to imagine. Hakeem's ball-stopping ISO-post game doesn't necessarily compliment an outstanding point guard. If Hakeem optimized his game around having Paul then I think they'd be a stronger duo, but it requires some imagination to see. Where Kobe and D-Rob we've seen already work, with a worse version of Robinson.


Kobe and David are both isolation players also, they stop being isolation players when they don't need to be.

Olajuwon needs someone to get him the ball when he is in the post - CP3 is good at doing that. Every time Hakeem gets good position he can expect an entry pass without risk of being a turnover. That helps fix up one of post offenses biggest weaknesses.

Not to mention they do not occupy the same place in the court.

Just because Hakeem is not a pick and roll monkey doesn't mean he cannot play with a pass first guy.


Kobe won five titles playing in the triangle.

DRob won two titles playing off of Tim Duncan.

They were isolation players because they had a lack of talent around them, what you would look at is how a player plays next to other great players.

Kobe with Shaq and Pau...how did Shaq and Pau perform?

DRob with Tim Duncan...how did Duncan perform?

That, imo is the testament of a players all around portability...how do you play next to other great players. You can always hypothesize a random pairing but with Kobe and DRob, you actually got to see it and win at the highest level.

CP3 paired with Blake Griffin, Deandre Jordan and a lot of side help i.e. Billups, Reddick, Jamal Crawford with the Clippers

Then he paired with James Harden and we saw how that turned out.

CP3 has had more opportunity to play with star players than a lot of other players, I like CP3 but imo, he did not cash out his chances. I know a lot of people want to point out that Houston almost beat the Warriors but imo, when CP3 lost to the Rockets in 2015 was a bigger loss.

The Clippers should have won, they blew a 15+ point lead, James Harden had a terrible game, and it was Josh Smith, Corey Brewer and Trevor Ariza that brought that Rockets team back. Harden was benched for that 4th quarter where the Clippers could not score.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201505140LAC.html



YAll you're saying is that MVP players teamed with other MVP players and won titles and CP3 did not - therefore, CP3 cannot play with stars and Bryant/Robinson can.

Here is my main point - there is nothing about Robinson or Bryant's style that is more geared toward playing with superstars than most superstars.

If David Robinson had never played with Tim Duncan, 90% of people here would think that they could not play together - because people vastly oversimplify the skill sets of players.

Ditto with Kobe Bryant and Shaq, for what ever reason, people have this idea that Kobe is the ultimate pairing with a big because that's what happened in reality, when there is nothing about Bryant's game that would compliment a big more than any other superstar perimeter player. It's pretty simple, talent in the NBA usually trumps all - fit isn't as important and most superstars can adapt well.

In fact you just pointed out a major weakness in your argument. You cited CP3 and James Harden, people said they could not play together, they most certainly could. If losing to the most stacked team of all time in the 7 game series is your idea of them not being able to play together then that doesn't sound very hollistic, it just seems like you're looking at what teams have championships and what do not without any context.


Blake Griffin and CP3 didn't have many healthy seasons and series together, Blake Griffin wasn't a superstar, Blake Griffin is unique among bigs because of his ball handling ability which is totally different from Duncan/O'Neal/Gasol, The Clippers were a very good team but were never championship favorites or even widely considered for runner up or 3rd place.

The Clippers did not lose because CP3/Griffin could not play together anyway (they could, which is why their offense was elite), it is not the #1 reason, #2 reason or even #3 reason why LAC never won a title and there is plenty of evidence to support that. I could list many reasons why the Clippers didn't win a title and have plenty of hard evidence to support it, in fact some of the reasons are so obvious it would almost be like pointing out the sky is blue.



In other words - most people would not be able to realize that Kobe Bryant could play with O'Neal just fine or ESPECIALLY that Robinson and Duncan can play together if those things hadn't literally happened because most people do not look at finer details, they just look at end results or use confirmation bias. That is exactly why Robinson and Duncan can "fit like a glove", when they do not really compliment each other that much at all - they were good because they're just both incredibly good players and size is a hard thing to deal with. The Lakers championship teams were hard to beat because of their size, having a superstar on the perimeter just made it unfair.


None of those things have much to do with portability. Chris Paul played on one nuclear team and that was the 2018 Rockets, and they nearly beat a team that was way more talented than themselves. Are we really supposed to believe that CP3+Harden can create probably the best team to never win a championship but Chris Paul cannot play with Hakeem Olajuwon? Or vice versa, when Hakeem Olajuwon played in big 3s?



Diagnosing their skill sets and CP3 absolutely could play with Olajuwon, it seems bizarre that someone would think they cannot play together. It makes no sense really, Chris Paul has been involved in top tier offenses with players who have more overlap than him and Olajuwon. On top of this, the only reason why the Barkley/Pippen/Olajuwon rockets didn't win is simply because those players were not in their prime. Basketball is not rocket science, most great players can play with each other very well hence why teams pair superstars with other superstars.


Kobe Bryant and David Robinson are still isolation players. Pointing out that they are only isolation players when they do not have serious star power aside from them....proves my point. Their skill sets on the surface they just look like low portability players. If Chris Paul plays with Lebron James they have a ton of overlap on paper, and guess what - they'd probably win a couple times, and people would say their styles fit perfectly or something like that.

In fact we pretty much saw this happen, James and Wade's skill sets grossly over lap on paper and they still won rings together.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#18 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:28 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Small nitpick here, but I'd argue that's not really true that volume scorers are becoming less and less important. This season there's two guys scoring 30+ ppg and 7 players scoring 28 or more.

Last season there was 3 people scoring 30 ppg or more, and 6 averaging 28 or more.

In Kobe's last prime year presumably 2010 there was only one scoring 30 or more and only 3 averaging 28 or more.

It's simply not true that volume scores aren't still very important and prevalent today.


I'm failing to understand the relevancy of the numbers you provided within the context of my argument as raw ppg has always depended on factors like FGA, # of three's, pace etc. to a significant extent...

Probably, the stats you should have emphasized instead are league average shooting numbers, starting with league average TS% and eFG% which are at it's highest ever mark in NBA history... The difference between those numbers now and when Kobe was in the final years of his prime is about 3%, which you may find negligible, but i don't, especially considering how, eFG% for example, was constantly floating from 48-50% in a 25-year span starting from 1980 and has gone from 50% to 53.5% in a span of 5 years from 2016 to now...

There's simply more players around the league right now (as well as better general understanding of how to use said players from a coaching/strategic standpoint) that are capable of impacting the game through hitting shots and generally efficient scoring than they were 10 years ago... Not only that, but they are almost always found on the majority of Playoff teams too (as these teams will possess more high end talent, hence why they are in the Playoffs). Who is going to make better use of that, the supreme individual volume scorer or the pass-first floor general extraordinaire?
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#19 » by No-more-rings » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:47 pm

limbo wrote:
I'm failing to understand the relevancy of the numbers you provided within the context of my argument as raw ppg has always depended on factors like FGA, # of three's, pace etc. to a significant extent...

Probably, the stats you should have emphasized instead are league average shooting numbers, starting with league average TS% and eFG% which are at it's highest ever mark in NBA history... The difference between those numbers now and when Kobe was in the final years of his prime is about 3%, which you may find negligible, but i don't, especially considering how, eFG% for example, was constantly floating from 48-50% in a 25-year span starting from 1980 and has gone from 50% to 53.5% in a span of 5 years from 2016 to now...

There's simply more players around the league right now (as well as better general understanding of how to use said players from a coaching/strategic standpoint) that are capable of impacting the game through hitting shots and generally efficient scoring than they were 10 years ago... Not only that, but they are almost always found on the majority of Playoff teams too (as these teams will possess more high end talent, hence why they are in the Playoffs).

Well you made no mention of efficiency in the post i replied to, so that's sort of a separate debate. The league average ts% is at the highest ever and has been on an upward trend since like 2017 or so, that's not because players are more talented necessarily it's likely due to how many more 3s are taken along with enhanced analytics for coaches to get players better shots, etc.

Also, to be clear we're not just talking about some random guy who scores a ton of points, Kobe's one of the best volume scorers in history, maybe top 5 and certainly top 10.

limbo wrote:Who is going to make better use of that, the supreme individual volume scorer or the pass-first floor general extraordinaire?


It's your preference, but again that doesn't really prove to me that volume scorers aren't that important anymore, and Kobe actually was efficient contrary to narrative. He wasn't as efficient as KD or Curry or whoever but that doesn't mean he was less impactful.

I get where you're coming from, but there's not actually that many playmakers in the current league that was on Paul's level. There's been more and more of a shift towards shoot first for point guards, and it's sort of what the league is about today. If you're to win championships with Paul as your best player he would either need to score more or have someone else score more than him. It's always been that way.
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Re: Kobe Bryant/David Robinson or Chris Paul/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#20 » by ice9 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:36 pm

The biggest knock against Robinson, and what is really the gap between him and Hakeem, is that his offense suffered in the playoffs when teams could hone in on him. Big issue when Sean Elliot is his #2, barely relevant if he is #2 to Kobe. Given the pairing, I think Hakeem and Robinson are close to a wash, and I feel very comfortable taking Kobe/Robinson, although it is close enough I could see why someone would pick the other pair.

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