RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 (Robert Parish)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 (Robert Parish) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:18 pm

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. Isiah Thomas
44. Russell Westbrook
45. Willis Reed
46. Chauncey Billups
47. Paul Pierce
48. Gary Payton
49. Pau Gasol
50. Ray Allen
51. Dwight Howard
52. Kevin McHale
53. Manu Ginobili
54. Dave Cowens
55. Adrian Dantley
56. Sam Jones
57. Bob Lanier
58. Dikembe Mutombo
59. Elvin Hayes
60. Paul Arizin
61. Anthony Davis
62. ???

Closing time will be around 10-11am EST on Saturday.
Additional reminder to update your listing of players with traction as needed (I do keep your most recent one on record, though); see OP of #60 thread if you need to know why.


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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:32 pm

1st vote: Robert Parish (sigh......AGAIN)
So I'm a meaningful longevity guy. And Parish has this in spades. He's been my clear top pick for awhile via my criteria; as my list stands now, there's actually no one left on the table who's even within 7-8 places of Parish.

We're fastly approaching a point where I think he's being underrated [unless your criteria hinges on peak or similar].

Because Parish was an entirely fine two-way player [and was so for a really damn long time].
While I think he’s somewhat more remembered for his offense, he was also a very capable defender thru much of his career (especially early on).

For example, during his first SEVEN seasons in the league......
*He never averaged less than 2.8 blocks per 100 possessions (and as high as 4.4).
**In both ‘79 and ‘81 he was 4th in the league in bpg despite playing just 31.7 and 28.0 mpg; was 5th in ‘82 while playing just 31.7 mpg, too.
***He had a cumulative 97 DRtg, leading the league in DRtg in ‘79; had a DRtg in the top 8 four times (three times in the top 3).

Offensively, he was a 7-footer who ran the floor pretty well, while being a competent finisher (making him one of the more notable transition threats among the centers of his era). He was a very very good low-post scorer (could utilize a little hook shot, or that crazy high-arcing turnaround of his), and also had a tiny bit of range (out to about 12-14 feet, anyway, he was quite effective).
Was an entirely decent FT-shooter for a big-man (72.1% for his career).
The primary reason he was averaging just 16-20 ppg during his prime was because he was playing on an extremely stacked team thru most of it. I've little doubt prime Parish could have avg ~23-24 ppg for a less talent-laden club.

While I don't think Parish could have been “the man” on a contender, I think we’re well past the point on the list where that is a necessary consideration. Especially when one has the kind of longevity that Parish had: he had a prime that basically lasted 13 years (>1,000 rs games), and five other seasons as decent role player of varying (but certainly relevant) value; only 3 seasons (years 19-21) that were of negligible or nil value.

And while he couldn’t have been #1 on a contender, he certainly could have been the #1 on a 40-45 win playoff participant. I think this was more or less proven in '89 when Bird missed the entire season: Parish was arguably the best player [at worst a "1B"] on a 42-win team.....this was at age 35 (the single-oldest man on the Celtic roster). No Bird to feed him, but old-man Parish still averaged 18.6 ppg @ +7.0% rTS, to go with 12.5 rpg and 1.5 bpg.

And he was clearly capable of being the #2 on a contender. Indeed, he WAS either the 2nd or 3rd best player on MULTIPLE contenders.
He’s got one ring as the clear #2 ('81), another as---at worst---the #2B ('84), a third ring as the clear #3 ('86), and then a 4th ring as a sparsely used limited-value bench player ('97).

He was 7th in MVP voting in ‘81, 4th in MVP voting in ‘82.

A look at his prime production…….
Robert Parish (‘79-’91) (13 years: 1022 rs games!)
Per 100 (rs): 25.8 pts, 15.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.3 stl, 2.5 blk with 3.6 tov @ 58.4% TS
PER 20.2, .168 WS/48, +2.2 BPM, 113 ORtg/102 DRtg (+11) in 32.4 mpg
Playoffs Per 100: 22.9 pts, 13.9 reb, 1.9 ast, 1.2 stl, 2.5 blk, 3.2 tov @ .551 TS%
PER 16.5, .121 WS/48, +1.1 BPM, 109 ORtg/105 DRtg (+4) in 34.9 mpg

Robert Parish (full career)
Per 100 (rs): 24.6 pts, 15.5 reb, 2.3 ast, 1.3 stl, 2.5 blk, 3.5 tov @ .571 TS%
PER 19.2, .154 WS/48, +1.5 BPM, 111 ORtg/102 DRtg (+9) in 28.4 mpg
**And note this is over 21 years, 1611 rs games (more than any other player in history)
Per 100 (playoffs): 22.6 pts, 14.2 reb, 1.9 ast, 1.2 stl, 2.5 blk, 3.1 tov @ .547 TS%
PER 16.6, .121 WS/48, +1.1 BPM, 109 ORtg/105 DRtg (+4) in 33.6 mpg

Career rs WS: 147.0 (#26 all-time)
Career playoff WS: 15.6 (#39 all-time)
9-Time NBA All-Star
2-Time All-NBA (1x 2nd, 1x 3rd)

That’s an awful lot of career value, imo. It's an amount that is [imo] utterly unmatched by anyone left on the table. If full career value is even remotely a foundation of your criteria [here I'll even take an authoritative tone]: Parish belongs on your ballot [probably at #1].


2nd vote (holds nose): Allen Iverson
I'm not a fan of Iverson at all. He's got some major flaws as a player and no doubt is overrated in the mainstream. But I [somewhat grudgingly??] must acknowledge that his body of work makes him a decent candidate at this stage.

First thing to keep in mind if you look at his "all-in-one" rate metrics (things like PER, WS/48, BPM): Iverson played some absurd minutes (and a PER of 21 while playing 30 mpg is not at all the same thing as doing it while playing 42 mpg, for example).
Consider that in his first twelve seasons in the league, Iverson averaged <40 mpg ONCE (at 39.4 mpg).
I mean, the guy's motor was beyond compare (Hondo is always the first guy to jump to mind when talking about motor, but Iverson is right there with him).

Such playing must also be kept in mind if looking at his impact metrics or indicators. For example, his best 7 years RAPM added puts him in the company of guys like Marc Gasol [whom you'd think would be higher, as we always allude to his non-box impact] and Steve Francis, as well as the best 6-years [because I'm missing '20] for Anthony Davis and Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Not bad company. Iverson does so while destroying the field in mpg, though.

I compiled some extensive WOWY data for Iverson [with special focus on team offense]----which fwiw, Iverson is one of those players for whom what paints a far different picture than Ben Taylor's WOWYR (Sidney Moncrief is the other who comes to mind:
WOWYR loves him, but my own [fairly extensive] WOWY studies painted a far more pedestrian picture).
Anyway, here's how that looked for Iverson:

’99
Sixer avg 83.0 ppg w/o him, 89.9 ppg with (+6.9 ppg change).
47.5 TS% w/o him, 49.5 TS% with (+2.0%).
97.4 ORtg w/o, 100.0 ORtg with (+2.6).
-12.04 SRS w/o, +3.17 SRS with (+15.21).

’00
85.4 ppg without him, 96.4 ppg with him (+11.0 ppg).
46.9 TS% without him, 50.6 TS% with him (+3.7%).
94.7 ORtg w/o him, 102.7 ORtg with him (+8.0).
-1.69 SRS w/o him, +1.48 SRS with him (+3.17).

’01
88.8 ppg w/o him, 95.6 with (+6.8 ppg).
51.6 TS% w/o, 51.8 TS% with (+0.2%).
103.2 ORtg w/o, 103.7 ORtg with (+0.5).
+0.48 SRS w/o, +4.12 SRS with him (+3.63).

’02
84.7 ppg w/o, 93.3 ppg with (+8.6 ppg).
49.1 TS% w/o, 50.7 TS% with (+1.6%).
100.2 ORtg w/o, 102.8 ORtg with (+2.6).
-4.18 SRS w/o, +3.27 SRS with him (+7.45).

'03--no missed games

’04---banged up much of year, missed 34 games
85.1 ppg w/o, 90.0 ppg with (+4.9 ppg).
50.8 TS% w/o, 50.3 TS% with (-0.5%)
100.3 ORtg w/o, 98.3 ORtg with (-2.0).
-2.54 SRS w/o, -3.24 with him (-0.70).

’05
95.9 ppg w/o, 99.4 ppg with (+3.5 ppg).
52.6 TS% w/o, 52.8 TS% with (+0.2%).
101.6 ORtg w/o, 103.7 ORtg with (+2.1).
-0.60 SRS w/o, -1.11 with him (-0.51).

’06
90.9 ppg w/o, 100.5 ppg with (+9.6 ppg).
53.1 TS% w/o, 53.9 TS% with (+0.8%).
103.9 ORtg w/o, 106.3 ORtg with (+2.4).
-5.59 SRS w/o, -1.62 with him (+3.97).

AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him over these years:
NOT weighted for games played/missed
+7.3 ppg
+1.1% TS%
+2.3 ORtg
+4.61 SRS
WEIGHTED for games played
+7.4 ppg
+1.2% TS%
+2.5 ORtg
+4.21 SRS
Weighted for games missed
+7.1 ppg
+0.8% TS%
+1.4 ORtg
+2.90 SRS
39-59 record (.398) without, 251-193 record (.565) with (avg of +13.7 wins added per 82-game season).

And note: '04 [injury year] was a definitive outlier within this time period (according to all his rate metrics too). He was playing banged up and performing well below his usual standard; and perhaps non-surprisingly, it's the ONE year in this sample that looks off from the rest.
If I can cherry-pick a little and remove that year from consideration.....
AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him during '99-'02, '05 and '06:
NOT weighted for # of games played in each season
+7.8 ppg
+1.4% TS%
+3.0 ORtg
+5.49 SRS
WEIGHTED for games played
+7.7 ppg
+1.4% TS%
+3.0 ORtg
+4.81 SRS
WEIGHTED for games missed
+8.3 ppg
+1.5% TS%
+3.2 ORtg
+4.82 SRS
25-39 record (.391) without, 232-164 record (.586) with: avg of +16 wins added per 82-game season.

So basically in his prime [minus '04], he was worth about 16 additional wins and a roughly +5 bump to their SRS (and specifically at +3(ish) bump to their ORtg).


3rd vote: Bob Cousy
As I briefly elaborated on around post-20 or thereabout in the #61 thread, Cousy actually has a number of striking similarities to Iverson in terms of player type and career arc.
Both guys were extraordinarily popular fan-favorites who shaped the evolution of the game to some degree. Both guys probably received more "credit" than was strictly deserved from mainstream media.

Cousy obviously has A LOT more team success to his credit, more awards/accolades, and led multiple elite/near-elite offenses [better than anything Iverson was ever a part of] in his pre-Russell years.
otoh, all these things occurred in a [imo] weaker era, his team success is largely tied to Russell [I've little doubt Iverson would have multiple rings in his shoes, fwiw], and he was a less consistent playoff performer compared to Iverson. Gun to my head, I'd also probably give Iverson a small edge defensively [although Cousy was a very good rebounding PG in the 1950s].
For those reasons, I tentatively have Iverson just ahead, but they are literally adjacent on my ATL.


Vince Carter is another I think needs some discussion here. Unseld as well.

For the record....
Among those with traction, I'm presently going with this order:
Parish > Iverson > Cousy > Mourning > Thurmond > TMac > Wilkins > Parker > Giannis > English > Walton/Jokic (I need to think more about where I'd have Jokic in relation to Walton; both are outside my top 100 as of 2020, though)
*sansterre has me waffling on McGrady vs Wilkins.....may end up pushing TMac ahead. EDIT: yes, officially swapping TMac ahead.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:40 pm

1. Alex English -- Versatility, consistency, and character put English over the likes of Dantley, Nique, Tmac, etc. English played many roles and always made his teams better no matter what role Denver played him in. He was a solid 35-30ppg scorer at above average efficiency for a full decade. In the 1980s he scored more points than Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkens, Adrian Dantley, Isiah Thomas, Moses Malone, or well, anyone. And he did it while generally guarding the better of the opponents starting forwards in the era of the great scoring forwards. From watching him, I have him as the only above average defender among the killer lineup of great scoring fowards of his era (Bird, Gervin, Nique, AD, King, Aquirre). One of the most underrated players in history. Also won numerous citizenship awards, one of the great people to play the game.

2. Bobby Jones, another English type player with super consistency and versatility though a defensive star instead of an offensive one, then maybe Parish. Note that Jones has more 1st team All-Defense teams than any other player in history with 11 (2 ABA). He was 1st All-Defense team every year of his career until his final one where he was 2nd team.

3. Robert Parish -- good, not great impact but just amazingly consistent (like the two players above him) for one of the longest primes outside of Kareem.

Guys that I love but whose primes are short: Giannis, Hawkins, Moncrief, Lever, Walton . . . convince me they have played long enough to go ahead of a Robert Parish or Bobby Jones type player. I'd have the first three over the likes of Penny Hardaway who has been mentioned. Lever may not make my top 100, Walton almost definitely won't. 1.5 seasons as a star and 1 as a top reserve does not make up for 10 as a highly paid injury; it's a shame because he's probably top 20 all-time with more seasons, maybe top 10.

After Parish, call it Giannis, then Unseld, Mourning, Thurmond, Parker, Nique, Tmac, Cousy, Hawkins, Moncrief. Those are subject to change, I haven't thought deeply about the ranking past my top 3.

Comps I'd like to see:

Giannis v. Connie Hawkins v. Tmac
Unseld v. Thurmond
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:41 pm

English v. Nique v. Tmac

Two of the greatest scorers of the 80s, both classy guys who stayed with one team for a decade. Tmac is a more modern player who gets the advantage of the 3 point shot being used in his lifetime but suffers in terms of leadership and locker room issues as more than 1 of his coaches have complained about his practice habits and insistence on doing things his way instead of playing within the team concept.

Defensively, Tmac has the edge on peak, English on consistency. Strangely enough Wilkins probably played on the best defensive teams with those Mike Fratello Hawks squads but he fails the eye test, once getting voted "player who puts the least effort on defense" in a player contest in Sports Illustrated (over George Gervin who came in second). Tmac could be a terrific defender when locked in; English started with more of a rep as a defensive player than a scorer in Milwaukee and Indiana before coming to Denver and starting a run where he scored more points during the 80s than anyone else, including Larry Bird, Adrian Dantley, and Nique among others.

IN terms of scoring, English is the most efficient, shooting at a .550 ts% for his career, Nique is behind him at .536, with Tmac trailing at .519 though in a tougher defensive era. Since the main value of each of the three is their volume scoring, this seems a strong argument for English. On the other hand, while all three were big volume scorers, Nique scored the most per 100 possessions at 34.5pts (though he was also the most frequently iso scorer rather than scoring in the flow of the offense), Tmac is a 31.6 and English at 30.4. Tmac has the single dominant season of the 3 when Grant Hill went down to injury and Orlando featured Tmac all the time every time; but he was also less consistent and more often injured than the other two. Note: Using the per 100 figure to avoid giving an advantage to English over Nique since English played in an extremely high pace system in DEN and Nique in a relatively low paced one in ATL.

In terms of playmaking, Tmac was the primary playmaker at 7.1 assists per 100 possessions, English a decent secondary playmaker at 5.1, and Wilkins not creating much for others at 3.5. Nique turned the ball over 3.5 times/100 possessions as did Tmac with English in the same neighborhood at 3.3. Rebounding gives the edge to Nique by a hair of Tmac at 9.3 v. 9.1 v. 7.7 to English.

In terms of versatility and a willingness to take on different roles to help the team, English has a strong case, at different times, he was the primary front court defensive stopper (next to Kiki Vandeweghe and Dan Issel, on an admittedly terrible defensive front court), a post up threat (same team), the primary outside shooter (later teams with Fat Lever and TR Dunn at guard), a point forward, an offball player, etc. Tmac played much more 2 guard and even some 4 which neither of the other two did much of, he even played PG at time. Nique changed his game to incorporate a 3 point shot toward the end of his career which English never really added.

Playoff success is the one additional factor that frequently gets mentioned. Tmac went to the playoffs less and never got out of the 1st round but had some great numbers in losing series. From watching him, he tended to play less well when his teammates were strong but would suddenly take on the superman mantle when Hill went out in Orlando or when Yao would get injured in Houston and just be a one man wrecking crew. English's numbers didn't drop at all in the playoffs, maybe because of his versatility. His teams had one WCF appearance and 4 times into the second round for the most playoff success of the 3. Nique is one of the great whose number drop the most precipitously in playoff competition; maybe because he tended to one particular style that could be gamed more, I don't know. He had ATL in the playoffs every year but two but only got out of the 1st round 3 times in the stacked East of his era.

I have it English, Wilkins, Tmac based primarily on efficiency, consistency, and character. Nique and TMac have a definite advantage in flash being great dunkers while English would get a "quiet" 25-30; Nique also had possibly the greatest nickname in NBA history -- this translated into more accolades for the two flashier players.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#5 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:47 pm

Just to see where we stand right now as to the representation of positions. I know some positions are in question but I went with whatever they played the most often. Overall ranking in brackets.

Point Guard:
Spoiler:
1. Magic Johnson (7)
2. Jerry West (13)
3. Oscar Robertson (14)
4. Chris Paul (23)
5. Stephen Curry (24)
6. John Stockton (26)
7. Steve Nash (27)
8. Walt Frazier (30)
9. Jason Kidd (36)
10. Isiah Thomas (43)
11. Russell Westbrook (44)
12. Chauncey Billups (46)
13. Gary Payton (48)

Shooting Guard:
Spoiler:
1. Michael Jordan (2)
2. Kobe Byrant (12)
3. Dwyane Wade (28)
4. James Harden (31)
5. George Gervin (37)
6. Clyde Drexler (38)
7. Reggie Miller (39)
8. Ray Allen (50)
9. Manu Ginobili (53)
10. Sam Jones (56)

Small Forward:
Spoiler:
1. LeBron James (1)
2. Larry Bird (10)
3. Julius Erving (18)
4. Kevin Durant (22)
5. Scottie Pippen (32)
6. Elgin Baylor (33)
7. John Havlicek (34)
8. Rick Barry (35)
9. Kawhi Leonard (42)
10. Paul Pierce (47)
11. Adrian Dantley (55)
12. Paul Arizin (60)

Power Forward:
Spoiler:
1. Tim Duncan (5)
2. Kevin Garnett (11)
3. Dirk Nowitzki (15)
4. Karl Malone (16)
5. Charles Barkley (21)
6. Bob Pettit (25)
7. Dolph Schayes (41)
8. Pau Gasol (49)
9. Kevin McHale (52)
10. Elvin Hayes (59)
11. Anthony Davis (61)

Center:
Spoiler:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (3)
2. Bill Russell (4)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (6)
4. Shaquille O'Neal (8)
5. Hakeem Olajuwon (9)
6. David Robinson (17)
7. George Mikan (19)
8. Moses Malone (20)
9. Patrick Ewing (29)
10. Artis Gilmore (40)
11. Willis Reed (45)
12. Dwight Howard (51)
13. Dave Cowens (54)
14. Bob Lanier (57)
15. Dikembe Mutombo (58)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#6 » by sansterre » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:12 pm

1. Tracy McGrady. It's time to talk about T-Mac. I teased him earlier and got no traction. But by my stuff McGrady is the #1 player on the board right now (of the 15 names that are being discussed). Of the six metrics I use he ranks:

BackPicks (my personal CORP conversion): 1st of 15
PIPM CORP (personal CORP conversion): 3rd of 13
CORP (ElGee's numbers): 3rd of 11
Win Share CORP (personal formula): 8th of 15
VORP CORP (personal formula): 1st of 12
WOWYR (ElGee's numbers): tied 5th of 12

Look, I realize that these are all formulas. None of these are visually verified. And I'm leery of arguing hard for a player purely based on formulas. But that's pretty good representation (especially since many of these formulas value different things). You know who the WSCORP and VORPCORP formulas love love love? Dominique Wilkins and Allen Iverson. But BackPicks BPM, CORP, PIPM and WOWYR all range from disinterest to *hate* for those two. Because different formulas like different things. But T-Mac shows up pretty well in all of them. The only one he struggles with (Win Share CORP) is the stat I think least of. And he seems to have gotten even better in the playoffs. Here are some regular season vs. playoff comparisons from some of his best years (I'm not using the 'P' word because if I do Odinn will yell at me about how I chose the wrong years and he'll probably be right):

RS '01-'07: 32.9% Usage, 52.8% TS, 9.6% Reb, 28.6% Ast, 9.4% TO, +6.6 OBPM
PO '01-07: 35.1% Usage, 52.7% TS, 8.9% Reb, 34.4% Ast, 10.2% TO, +7.7 BPM

So in the playoffs his usage went up by 2.2%, and between the usage increase and going against playoff defenses (where his team was *always* the lower seed) his efficiency didn't budge. Do you realize how nuts that is? We praise Kobe for his inelastic offense, but T-Mac's statistical resume on that front is superior to Kobe's (granted, we only have five series to look at, so this could be a sample size issue, but still). Are we sure that we aren't just hating on T-Mac because he couldn't get out of the first round? How different is T-Mac's situation from Kobe in '05-'07? Except that a) we'd seen Kobe play with Shaq and it was awesome and b) we got to see Kobe play with Gasol and it was awesome. We never got to see that with T-Mac except for with Yao, and Yao was injured a lot. Here's Kobe from '06-07:

RS '06-'07: 36.2% Usage, 56.8% TS, 7.9% Reb, 24.8% Ast, 9.8% TO, +6.9 OBPM
PO '06-'07: 30.9% Usage, 57.5% TS, 8.1% Reb, 20.9% Ast, 15.0% TO, +4.2 OBPM

Kobe's usage plummets in the playoffs, but he gains little in terms of scoring (though his efficiency is still notably higher than McGrady), his assists fall, his turnovers spike . . . I'm not kidding. Are we sure that T-Mac wasn't a seriously inelastic scoring monster that never got enough support? His Heliocentrism scores, from '01 to '07 (again, VORP is only so good at stuff, but it's something):

'01: 67% RS, 80% PO
'02: 56% RS, 80% PO
'03: 97% RS, 143% PO
'04: 407% RS
'05: 45% RS, 56% PO
'06: 40% RS (missed half the season)
'07: 32% RS, 36% PO

Compare this with Kobe:

'06: 60% RS, 25% PO
'07: 58% RS, 67% PO

Look. I've gone on a while here. I'm just saying. It's pretty clear to me that McGrady's supporting cast in Orland ranged from pretty bad to flaming dumpster fire. And when he moved to Houston he started missing games and wasn't quite himself. I don't know what to make of it. But few players have his resume of stepping his performance in the playoffs, even when acting as the first option on a weak team. The second McGrady gets *any* support he'll have my vote. But until then I'm just going to push him where I can.

Anyhow, on with the list:

2. Robert Parish - Parish is done a disservice by the fact that his most memorable years ('86 specifically) were well past his prime. The knock on Parish is that he was never *great*. He had many iterations as a scorer, from higher usage and sufficient efficiency to lower usage and more efficiency. But he was never a particularly good scorer. He *was* a really good rebounder, but never dominant. He had eight different years in the top 10 of rebounds, but only one in the Top 5. He was never a dominant defender, but he was strong on that end for a very long time. And for all of McHale getting flack for being a black hole, Parish's Shots per Assist was around 10 for most of his career (compared to 7 for McHale). Parish was never a good passer and turned the ball over a fair amount. Put all this together and Parish was never dominant. He was never close to dominant. At his best he was only quite good. But here's the thing. He did that crap FOR EVER. He's 2nd all time in offensive boards, 4th in defensive boards, 10th in blocks, Top 30 in points and so on. To be clear, I don't care about those career counting stats. But I want to be clear that, in contrast to, say, Giannis, who has several ATG seasons but little else, Parish has maybe 15 All-Star (or close) seasons. In career value, Parish makes up the difference in sheer longevity.

3. Nate Thurmond - I'm surprised to see him this high. But Thurmond was a defensive beast in an era ideally suited to defensive beasts from his position. He historically doesn't get a lot of love because he was likely inferior to Russell/Wilt on defense and to Kareem overall, and he never got to play on any really strong teams. But he was a serious impact-maker, his play strongly driving his teams' success and he played offensive centers better than anyone (ask Kareem). His box-score stuff is all fairly pedestrian, but anything a little more intangible-driven (PIPM, CORP, WOWYR) likes him quite well.

McGrady > Parish > Thurmond > Mourning > Iverson > A.Hardaway > Parker > Giannis > Cousy > English > Walton > Wilkins > Jokic
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#7 » by Odinn21 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:40 pm

62. Alonzo Mourning
It's quite insane that we as a group have forgotten about Mourning. He had Walton-Reed like career in a way but the unlucky injury hit him much later. He had 8 good prime seasons with very very good peak. Still a prime longer than A. Davis and also arguably better. He still had 4 seasons of regular games after the injury, his overall longevity isn't great but it's there. His intangibles were great.

63. Tony Parker
His peak is underrated, also how long his peak lasted is underrated. I'd personally pick 2013 as his peak but I definitely see someone going for 2009 which was only to be disrupted by injury in 2010 in the future. In 2009, he was in the top 10% percentile in impact numbers. In 2012 and 2013 he was in the very top 1%. He usually is considered as not so great impact player but he really was at his best. His prime duration beyond peak duration was also good. He had 9 seasons of actual prime with 4 seasons worthy of peak. Even before going into extended prime which I usually refer as just prime, he was a force for a decade and a half. Yeah, his overall longevity is worse than Parish without a doubt but I think edges going in his favour for peak and prime are more than that.
Some of us in here usually look at WS or VORP but in Parker's case, sheer numbers are more telling.
He's #10* in total points and #5 in total assists in the pro playoff history. It's very likely that Durant will surpass Parker for that #10 spot in 2021 playoffs but the point stands still. Parker is the only player in top 20 to make the list yet it's obvious that his peak/prime/longevity stack more than enough at this point in the list.
(*He's #9 in the NBA playoff history. Erving's ABA career.)

64. Robert Parish
I'm reaching to a point that my more prime oriented vision won't be able to favour anyone else over Parish's massive longevity. Right now, I have him as a placeholder and I might change this pick because I have some thoughts I'm yet to unfold properly (about Arizin, Davis, McGrady, Iverson, English, Thurmond and McAdoo).

BTW, in the previous project it looks like Rasheed Wallace made the top 85 just barely but I feel like I might consider him in the near future.

Edit;
Cousy > Thurmond > McGrady > English > Giannis > Jokic > Iverson > B. Jones > Walton
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#8 » by Hal14 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:30 pm

Hal14 wrote:1. Bob Cousy
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Allen Iverson

Bob Cousy - Very underrated on this board. When you look at the players from his era, Mikan and Pettit were better than Cousy. But Cousy has a strong argument for being better than any other player from his era. You could argue that Cousy was better than Schayes and Schayes got voted in a long time ago in the no. 41 spot.

Cousy - 13x all star, 10x all NBA 1st team, 1 MVP, 6x NBA title
Schayes - 12x all star, 6x all NBA 1st team, 0 MVP, 1x NBA title

Cousy has a clear edge in awards and titles over Schayes plus had greater impact on the game - decades later, Cousy was the guy all point guards modeled their game after. Did Schayes do that? Of course not - he was a PF and the guy back then all PFs modeled their game after was Pettit.

What about Arizin? He was a SF and he didn't have as much impact as Cousy either - Baylor was the guy back then all SFs would model their game after - not Arizin.

And as for awards and titles, we have:

Cousy - 13x all star, 10x all NBA 1st team, 2x all NBA 2nd team, 1 MVP, 6x NBA title
Arizin - 10x all star, 3x all NBA 1st team, 1x all NBA 2nd team, 0 MVP, 1x NBA title

Not to mention the impact Cousy had on the game and his legacy. We simply had never before seen a guy who could make the kind of passes that Cousy could. It's like he had eyes in the back of his head - able to see 2 steps ahead of the opposition, able to anticipate where his teammates would be, hit teammates perfectly in stride for transition layups. Some of the plays he made - you might watch them today in 2021 and think they are routine plays - but a) many of the plays he made were truly outstanding and not routine at all and b) He was so far ahead of his time - to make the types of plays he did back in the 50s was pretty amazing. Keep in mind back then there was much more strict rules in regards to dribbling. The way players dribble the ball in today's game - they would get called for a carry, palming or travel pretty much every time down the floor. Cousy was called the hardwood Houdini for a reason. And it's not like he was all flash and no substance (like Maravich, Jason Williams, etc.), Cousy was all about winning. That's all he cared about - winning. Scoring the basketball, making great passes to teammates to get them baskets. Hell, he was even a good rebounder for his size. He did whatever it takes to win. He became the player that all point guards who would come later on would model their games after.

Not for another 2 decades when Frazier came along would we see a player as good as Cousy at both scoring and setting up teammates for scores. Frazier was obviously a better defender, but he also had the advantage of coming along decades later, when more players were lifting weights, rules weren't as strict on palming/carrying/traveling, the ball was easier to shoot and easier to dribble than the one Cousy played with, etc. Frazier was voted in at the no. 30 spot in this poll. Is he really 26 spots better than Cousy? No way.



Cousy led the NBA in assists 8 years in a row.

Cousy was hands down the best player at his position for an entire decade, was considered the best scorer and best passer at his position for an entire decade, and completely ignore all of the awards (which were voted on be people who actually were alive back then and followed the game very closely LIVE and based their voting off not just stats but also intangibles, eye test and impact the player had on the game, reputation around the league, etc. and also completely ignoring contributing the more titles than any PG ever, a huge part of the greatest dynasty in NBA history, the guy who was the one leading the famous Celtics fast break which changed the way the game would be played from then on since up until then no one else was playing that type of push the tempo, run run run, get quick shots up before the defense is set type of style. Let's also ignore that during his career Cousy made more high degree of difficulty shots - shots that literally no one had ever even attempted, let alone made, he was also the league's best ball handler and passer for his entire career - in an era where they played with a ball that was MUCH more difficult to dribble, pass and shoot than the ball they have the advantage of playing with today.

To anyone hating on Cousy for low shooting %
-the era Cousy played in, he played with no 3 point shot - even though he was a perimeter player who often times made shots from far away - so if there was a 3 point shot back then his scoring would have been higher than it was
-Cousy played in an era where they were much more strict about what counted as an assist. Yet he still averaged over 9 assists once, over 8 APG 3 times and over 7 APG 10 times...if he played in modern era those assist numbers would be significantly higher
-When Cousy played, he played with a ball that was much more difficult to dribble and shoot than the ones modern players get to play with. His shooting efficiency numbers would be much higher if he played today
-The backboard and rim back when Cousy played was also less favorable for getting it in - you had to really shoot it just right to make the shot - especially when shooting from further away - combined with the pathetic ball they played with back then - I mean c'mon, are people really hating on Cousy's shooting %? People who know the game know how good that guy was.
-The sneakers the players were in Cousy's era would literally be painful to wear for a modern player - the fact that he shot the % he did is actually really good considering all of this stuff

In 54-55, Cousy's FG% was 39.7%. NBA league average was 38.5%. So Cousy was quite a big higher than the league average - which is even more impressive when you consider that that season (and each of Cousy's first 6 years in the league) there was no Russell to help take the pressure off him (no Heinsohn yet, no Hondo, no Sam Jones) so defenses were focused on stopping Cousy and also since he was a smaller player and taking shots from further away from the basket compared to a guy like Mikan, Arizin or Schayes it added to the higher degree of difficulty for Cousy's shot attempts.

Nate Thurmond - right in that same tier with Reed, Gilmore and Ewing. I see those four centers as pretty debatable. Ewing, Gilmore and Reed all got voted in already - it's Thurmond's time now. Thurmond has a strong case for being better than all 3 of them (probably the best defender of the group, but Gilmore has the longevity and ABA Finals MVP, Reed has 2 Finals MVPs so I've got Thurmond just barely ranked behind those other guys).

Article here:
https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

Excerpt:
Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. “He plays me better than anybody ever has,” Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. “He’s tall, has real long arms, and most of all he’s agile and strong.” In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, “When I score on Nate, I know I’ve done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too.”

"Some basketball observers have suggested that the 6-11 Thurmond provided the best mix of offense and defense in basketball history. Many say that his defense was better than Chamberlain’s, and that his offense was better than Bill Russell’s. With quickness and long hands, a smooth outside shooting touch, tenacious rebounding, classic shot blocking ability, and a total team attitude, Thurmond offered a perfectly balanced package."

Thurmond is one of the most underrated players of all time and is top 50, no question in my mind.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/defensive-dominator-thurmond-one-nbas-most-underrated-all-time

Thurmond went against Wilt, Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Unseld, Bellamy, Beaty, Cowens, Reed - all in their prime. Yet he still managed:

-7 all star games in 14 seasons

-2 times all defensive 1st team, 3 times all defensive 2nd team...despite the fact that all defense awards didn't exist until his 6th season! Clearly one of the best defensive players of all time and one of the best rebounders of all time

-Did not make a 1st or 2nd team all NBA (obviously those usually went to Wilt/Kareem/Russell) but there's very little question he would have made quite a few all NBA 3rd team selections if it existed back when he played

-Finished 2nd in MVP voting in 66-67, finishing ahead of Russell, Robertson and Barry - Thurmond finished no. 2 behind Wilt who was no. 1. Finished 11th in 69-70, 8th in 70-7, 8th in 71-72, 9th in 72-73 and 8th in 73-74

-Helped his team to NBA Finals in 67, where they lost to arguably the greatest team of all time, the 67 Sixers. That series Thurmond averaged 14 PPG and 26.7 RPG while playing 47 MPG, going head to head vs Wilt. Thurmond's Warriors fell in 6 games to Wilt's Sixers. Let's compare that to the Eastern Division Finals - Russell (while also going against Wilt) averaged less PPG (11) and less RPG (23) than Thurmond, and Russell's Celtics lost in 5 games to Wilt's Sixers. How did Wilt do in each series? His numbers. were better in the Eastern Division Finals, going against Russell than they were in the NBA finals vs Thurmond. Wilt went from 21 PPG, 32 RPG and 10 APG vs Russell down to 17 PPG, 28 RPG and 6 APG vs Thurmond.
1/11/24 The birth of a new Hal. From now on being less combative, avoiding confrontation - like Switzerland :)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#9 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:33 pm

1. Robert Parish - I wasn't entirely sure on backing Parish as I believe there are still quite a few significantly better peaks on the table but calling Parish just a longevity case doesn't do him justice either. Posting 10 WS and being selected to the All-Star game at 37 is impressive and being able to play at a replacement level at 43 years old is as well but I'm voting him here because he has quite a lot of good seasons along with plenty of play-off production. His case looks similar to Hayes to me with a bit more longevity and a bit lower peak.

2. Allen Iverson - He has his faults but that doesn't mean AI wasn't a really good basketball player. His 2001 season as a whole was really good and he has enough other strong seasons in both the regular season and play-offs for me to not see it as a complete outlier. The deep and high level 2001 play-offs are what sets him apart from guys like T-Mac and Giannis who are otherwise comparable but lack that one defining run.

3. Giannis Antetokounmpo - Not the best longevity as he's only 26 and needed a few seasons to grow into his own but at this point in the list I'd definitely argue that 4 elite seasons that include solid post-season play every one of those years is really good. We've already voted in players with similar longevity to that and Giannis' peak is nothing to scoff at. He just lacks that one play-off run that cements him as elite in the post-season for now.

Tracy McGrady > Nikola Jokic > Bob Cousy > Alonzo Mourning > Alex English > Bobby Jones > Tony Parker > Nate Thurmond > Bill Walton
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#10 » by DQuinn1575 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:35 pm

1 Parish - so much career value. Yes there are players left who had better peaks - Walton, McGrady, others. But he had a lot of real good seasons, and accumulated more value than anyone left.

2 Cousy - fairly long career as one of the top players in the league. Shooting accuracy is questioned; but that is why he is the 60s and not higher.

3 Iverson - compared to Cousy, and maybe that is fair. Gets a lot of grief for carrying a team to the finals. Unfortunately for him, he played a great team there. A worse opponent, who knows what happens, but I rank based on reality and not what-ifs. I put more value on volume scoring with lousy offenses than most.

Ranking of others getting votes:
Alonzo Mourning
Alex English
Bill Walton
Giannis Antetokounmpo
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#11 » by penbeast0 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:20 am

Iverson is more Pete Maravich or Dominique Wilkins than Bob Cousy, great entertainer, overrated scorer. Compare him to English who would get you a consistent 25+ every year on above average efficiency in both regular season and the playoffs for a decade while doing it with very few isolation plays while Iverson would get you 30+ (also consistently for a decade) but at below league average efficiency with a dropoff in the playoffs while forcing the team to bend it's offense to his style and having attitude problems. It's not close and it's not a favorable comparison for Iverson.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#12 » by euroleague » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:29 am

1. Bob Cousy
2. Bill Walton
3. Penny Hardaway


1. Cousy was a revolutionary player in the NBA, and he was a huge contributor on many championship teams. His stats may not have been good, but as a PG, much of his impact wasn't in his scoring stats. His elite playmaking set the stage for Russell's passing to develop, and his transition offense helped the defense by tiring out opponents. It's no coincidence that the Celtics were consistently first in ppg - his offense also allowed for offensive rebounding to be more effective.

Many people hating on Cousy never actually watched these games. I myself haven't watched enough of them to be an expert, but what I have seen of Cousy has him as an elite floor general whose impact went far beyond his stats.

2. Bill Walton - This may be a lot higher than most have him, but his run at his best was so elite, both in the regular and post-season, i feel comfortable putting him this high. MVP, FMVP, would've won DPOOY, 6MOY with the Celtics on a GOAT level team. McHale had a bigger role on those teams, and will probably be my next selection, but Walton's brief period of being arguably the best player in the league, and winning Portland's only title, put him this high for me.

3. Penny Hardaway - most dynamic player left, he was capable of transforming franchises, and although his peak was short, I see his impact as far greater than anyone below him

I view this a bit differently than most posters, I think.

For me, this is the greatest in NBA history. NBA. Would they be my first pick if I could have them on my team for their career? No. But, if I were the NBA commissioner and could draft someone to be in my league for their career? For sure I’m taking Cousy in the 50s, Walton in the 70s, and Penny in the 90s over players like Robert parish.

These players raised the level of the game. Their greatness transcends the success of their own team - they brought the entire NBA to greatness, with superior insight into the way it’s played. They impacted their opponents positively, by schooling them with class.

That thinking is why I rate Bird/Magic/DrJ so highly - they introduced new ways of playing the game.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#13 » by Baski » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:56 am

1.Alonzo Mourning
This guy would follow Mutombo if I had my way. Peaked way higher due to being roughly in the same tier (or a bit lower) defensively and leagues better offensively, but age and kidneys limited what could've been a top 40-50 career well above Dike's.

I compared Dike to Bill Russell offensively, but Zo is a lot better scoring wise. A legit 20 ppg scorer with consistently elite high 50s TS% throughout his 1st 8 years. Gametape showed he was solid in the post, like legitimately good enough to dump it down to, but was really amazing in the Dwight role and then some with the midrange shot, which is way more than I can say for the other two. His passing was bad though, which limited him, but not to the extent Russell's poor scoring affected his team's offense so there's that.

His was a defensive monster: 6th in career blocks per game and 11th in total blocks, of course validated by 2 DPOYs, 2 All D 1st teams, league leading defenses and once capturing the No. 1 seed in the East all on the back of his play on both ends and 2 top-3 MVP finishes. I noticed he really lacks individual accolades compared to his peers in the mid-late 90s, but those peers were pretty damn amazing and are all in already.

The kidney issue abruptly turned him into a role player, but one that was still highly valuable (when he could play) as he showed with the 2006 run where he led the Heat in Block% and all pace adjusted Block stats, Drtg and Net rtg for both the RS and PS. 2nd to Wade in WS/48 for both too. And he was 35. The stats I'm using are all over the place, but point is Zo at his peak got shafted by injury and disease but still managed to retain a lot of value, which I like to attribute to his portable offensive skillset and enduring defensive acumen.
The mental fortitude to come back from the ordeal and intangibles in accepting his new role as an aging legend and mentor for the 2nd Heat stint is pretty commendable as well.

2.Dominique Wilkins
3. Alex English
Originally not even close to this position for me, but Penbeast's breakdown on the similarities and differences between him, Nique and TMac is every convincing and now I can't see him that far below Nique. Underrated legend, surely by me.

Order of preference:
Bob Cousy
Robert Parish
Tony Parker
Allen Iverson
Giannis Antetokoumpo (I also think it's strange AD's ring has catapulted him so far beyond Giannis when prior to it it was clear Giannis' trajectory was going to have him as the superior guy by career's end)
Nate Thurmond
TMac
Luke Walton's Dad
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:44 pm

Thru post #13:

Robert Parish - 3 (DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, trex_8063)
Alonzo Mourning - 2 (Baski, Odinn21)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Hal14)
Tracy McGrady - 1 (sansterre)
Alex English - 1 (penbeast0)


~26 hours left for this one.
***And a quick reminder of the announcements in OP of #60 thread, if you didn’t read them. Could be consequences for failing to comply***….


Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joe Malburg wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

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Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

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TrueLAfan wrote:.

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876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#15 » by trex_8063 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:28 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Iverson is more Pete Maravich or Dominique Wilkins than Bob Cousy, great entertainer, overrated scorer. Compare him to English who would get you a consistent 25+ every year on above average efficiency in both regular season and the playoffs for a decade while doing it with very few isolation plays while Iverson would get you 30+ (also consistently for a decade) but at below league average efficiency with a dropoff in the playoffs while forcing the team to bend it's offense to his style and having attitude problems. It's not close and it's not a favorable comparison for Iverson.


I'll concede some points here, agree to some others pending some small adjustments for accuracy, and object to some others....

Is Iverson an overrated scorer? Absolutely.
Is he comparable to Pete Maravich? Absolutely not.....

*Maravich scored at a lesser rate [his career-best rate is marginally lower than Iverson's career average], and did so on marginally lesser rTS% compared to Iverson].

**Maravich also had a significantly lower playmaking rate [his career-best Ast/100 and AST% are both a little below Iverson's career average].

***He did this while having [apparently, based on his late years] a FAR worse turnover economy compared to Iverson.

****He was worse defensively than Iverson (Iverson is no prize defensively, but Maravich is possibly the worst I've ever seen).

*****Maravich has a record of providing zero [or near-zero] lift at each and every stop in his career (occasionally even seeming to make teams worse). This is not the case with Iverson.
Maravich ultimately achieved LESS success in Atlanta where he had casts [imo] BETTER than anything Iverson ever saw.

******And to top it off, Maravich's durability/longevity is inferior to Iverson.


You say the comparison to English is "not close" [I'll disagree, but you're welcome to your opinion]; but it's more than apparent that a comparison to Maravich is FAR less close.


Re: comp to English.....
I'll concede English was more playoff consistent (though Iverson does not drop off like Wilkins [since you name-dropped him], or even close to it).
I'll concede English is a better teammate.
I'll concede English had better shooting efficiency, though I think your wording marginally overstates the difference: if we compare their best 10-year stretches ['99-'08 and '80-'89, respectively], English is +2.4% better than Iverson in terms of rTS%. It's significant, but it's not exactly enormous. Iverson was doing so on higher volume, too.

English, of course, rebounded a bit more, but Iverson did much more playmaking. Iverson's career-low AST% was 23.0% (which ironically was '01: the best year in terms of team success, and 2nd-best offense of his career irrc).....which is higher than English's career-BEST of 20.9%. And this is perhaps more striking when acknowledging that English played with much better offensive players in his career.
And Iverson handled all of this added offensive load relative to English [both scoring and playmaking] while maintaining a very similar [that is: good] overall turnover economy as English.

I'll also note that for how much better you're saying English was ["not close"], the degree of team success (both peak level, and average over careers) is very very similar. And it's not like English had a dearth of talent around him compared to Iverson.

And lastly I'll echo what you said regarding "great entertainer", again acknowledging that Iverson was the far far FAR more marketable player.....which certainly doesn't have to be a big consideration [or any at all, if you choose]; but it's not insignificant, imo, noting that it's those players who shape the evolution of the game moving forward.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#16 » by penbeast0 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:29 pm

Maravich/Nique are the other players I was using for the idea of great entertainer whose raw scoring numbers are hurt by their questionable efficiency. These are 3 of the greatest entertainers in NBA history and the only others that were as spectacular (Jordan, Erving, etc.) are generally more impactful. Not implying that Maravich was as good as Iverson, I don't think he was.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #62 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:24 pm

Thru post #16:

Robert Parish - 3 (DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, trex_8063)
Alonzo Mourning - 2 (Baski, Odinn21)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Hal14)
Tracy McGrady - 1 (sansterre)
Alex English - 1 (penbeast0)


9 votes requires 5 for a majority. TMac and English are first eliminated, both votes are transferred to Parish.....

Parish - 5
Zo - 2
Cousy - 2

So we have an actual majority winner this time. Will get the next up in a moment.


Spoiler:
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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd

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