RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #64 (Alonzo Mourning)

Post #1 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 3:28 pm

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. Isiah Thomas
44. Russell Westbrook
45. Willis Reed
46. Chauncey Billups
47. Paul Pierce
48. Gary Payton
49. Pau Gasol
50. Ray Allen
51. Dwight Howard
52. Kevin McHale
53. Manu Ginobili
54. Dave Cowens
55. Adrian Dantley
56. Sam Jones
57. Bob Lanier
58. Dikembe Mutombo
59. Elvin Hayes
60. Paul Arizin
61. Anthony Davis
62. Robert Parish
63. Bob Cousy
64. ???

Target stop time will be around 10-11am EST on Wednesday.
Reminder again of OP in #60 thread, if anyone has not read it.

Spoiler:

Post #2 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 4:25 pm

1st vote: Allen Iverson
I'm not a fan of Iverson at all. He's got some major flaws as a player and no doubt is overrated in the mainstream. But I [somewhat grudgingly??] must acknowledge that his body of work makes him a decent candidate at this stage.

First thing to keep in mind if you look at his "all-in-one" rate metrics (things like PER, WS/48, BPM): Iverson played some absurd minutes (and a PER of 21 while playing 30 mpg is not at all the same thing as doing it while playing 42 mpg, for example).
Consider that in his first twelve seasons in the league, Iverson averaged <40 mpg ONCE (at 39.4 mpg).
I mean, the guy's motor was beyond compare (Hondo is always the first guy to jump to mind when talking about motor, but Iverson is right there with him).

Such playing must also be kept in mind if looking at his impact metrics or indicators. For example, his best 7 years RAPM added puts him in the company of guys like Marc Gasol [whom you'd think would be higher, as we always allude to his non-box impact] and Steve Francis, as well as the best 6-years [because I'm missing '20] for Anthony Davis and Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Not bad company. Iverson does so while destroying the field in mpg, though.

I compiled some extensive WOWY data for Iverson [with special focus on team offense]----which fwiw, Iverson is one of those players for whom what paints a far different picture than Ben Taylor's WOWYR (Sidney Moncrief is the other who comes to mind:
WOWYR loves him, but my own [fairly extensive] WOWY studies painted a far more pedestrian picture).
Anyway, here's how that looked for Iverson:

’99
Sixer avg 83.0 ppg w/o him, 89.9 ppg with (+6.9 ppg change).
47.5 TS% w/o him, 49.5 TS% with (+2.0%).
97.4 ORtg w/o, 100.0 ORtg with (+2.6).
-12.04 SRS w/o, +3.17 SRS with (+15.21).

’00
85.4 ppg without him, 96.4 ppg with him (+11.0 ppg).
46.9 TS% without him, 50.6 TS% with him (+3.7%).
94.7 ORtg w/o him, 102.7 ORtg with him (+8.0).
-1.69 SRS w/o him, +1.48 SRS with him (+3.17).

’01
88.8 ppg w/o him, 95.6 with (+6.8 ppg).
51.6 TS% w/o, 51.8 TS% with (+0.2%).
103.2 ORtg w/o, 103.7 ORtg with (+0.5).
+0.48 SRS w/o, +4.12 SRS with him (+3.63).

’02
84.7 ppg w/o, 93.3 ppg with (+8.6 ppg).
49.1 TS% w/o, 50.7 TS% with (+1.6%).
100.2 ORtg w/o, 102.8 ORtg with (+2.6).
-4.18 SRS w/o, +3.27 SRS with him (+7.45).

'03--no missed games

’04---banged up much of year, missed 34 games
85.1 ppg w/o, 90.0 ppg with (+4.9 ppg).
50.8 TS% w/o, 50.3 TS% with (-0.5%)
100.3 ORtg w/o, 98.3 ORtg with (-2.0).
-2.54 SRS w/o, -3.24 with him (-0.70).

’05
95.9 ppg w/o, 99.4 ppg with (+3.5 ppg).
52.6 TS% w/o, 52.8 TS% with (+0.2%).
101.6 ORtg w/o, 103.7 ORtg with (+2.1).
-0.60 SRS w/o, -1.11 with him (-0.51).

’06
90.9 ppg w/o, 100.5 ppg with (+9.6 ppg).
53.1 TS% w/o, 53.9 TS% with (+0.8%).
103.9 ORtg w/o, 106.3 ORtg with (+2.4).
-5.59 SRS w/o, -1.62 with him (+3.97).

AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him over these years:
NOT weighted for games played/missed
+7.3 ppg
+1.1% TS%
+2.3 ORtg
+4.61 SRS
WEIGHTED for games played
+7.4 ppg
+1.2% TS%
+2.5 ORtg
+4.21 SRS
Weighted for games missed
+7.1 ppg
+0.8% TS%
+1.4 ORtg
+2.90 SRS
39-59 record (.398) without, 251-193 record (.565) with (avg of +13.7 wins added per 82-game season).

And note: '04 [injury year] was a definitive outlier within this time period (according to all his rate metrics too). He was playing banged up and performing well below his usual standard; and perhaps non-surprisingly, it's the ONE year in this sample that looks off from the rest.
If I can cherry-pick a little and remove that year from consideration.....
AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him during '99-'02, '05 and '06:
NOT weighted for # of games played in each season
+7.8 ppg
+1.4% TS%
+3.0 ORtg
+5.49 SRS
WEIGHTED for games played
+7.7 ppg
+1.4% TS%
+3.0 ORtg
+4.81 SRS
WEIGHTED for games missed
+8.3 ppg
+1.5% TS%
+3.2 ORtg
+4.82 SRS
25-39 record (.391) without, 232-164 record (.586) with: avg of +16 wins added per 82-game season.

So basically in his prime [minus '04], he was worth about 16 additional wins and a roughly +5 bump to their SRS (and specifically at +3(ish) bump to their ORtg).

2nd vote: Alonzo Mourning
Probably a pinch overrated offensively (scored slightly above average volume on decent shooting efficiency, but sort of a zilch play-maker and VERY turnover-prone). Not a terrible offensive piece, though, especially if you can use him in a secondary [or even tertiary??] role.
A defensive monster in his prime though, and seemingly a model teammate.

If his longevity were better [between injury and illness, his career was a little bit of a roller-coaster], I would have supported him sooner. Mid-60s(ish) feels about right to me.

3rd vote (edited): Tracy McGrady

notes on Wes Unseld (recently removed from vote):
Solid [but not great] post defender and team defender (smart in his positioning, physical, and near-impossible to move if he didn't want to be moved; solid box-out big, too). Possible GOAT in screen-setting and outlet passing, as has been often stated. Efficient low-volume scorer, definitely one of the better/best passing bigs left on the table, and and offensive rebounding threat. Seemingly a model teammate and certainly one of the better intangible leader-types left on the table.

This feels about right considering his full legacy. That said, I'm not 100% set in this pick [in particular, could see going with Thurmond, too].
So if anyone wants to specifically frame an argument of Thurmond > Unseld, I'm listening.

For the record....
Among those with traction, I'm presently going with this order:
Iverson > Mourning > McGrady > Thurmond > Unseld > Wilkins > Parker > Giannis > English > Walton/Jokic (I need to think more about where I'd have Jokic in relation to Walton; both are outside my top 100 as of 2020, though)

sansterre · Post #3 » by **sansterre** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 4:32 pm

It is my custom only to run numbers on players that get votes or are discussed. On occasion a player will get discussed that then vaults into my top 3. It is what it is. That's what happened here with 'Sheed.

1. Tracy McGrady. It's time to talk about T-Mac. I teased him earlier and got no traction. But by my stuff McGrady is the #1 player on the board right now (of the 15 names that are being discussed). Of the six metrics I use he ranks:

BackPicks (my personal CORP conversion): 1st of 15
PIPM CORP (personal CORP conversion): 3rd of 13
CORP (ElGee's numbers): 3rd of 11
Win Share CORP (personal formula): 8th of 15
VORP CORP (personal formula): 1st of 12
WOWYR (ElGee's numbers): tied 5th of 12

Look, I realize that these are all formulas. None of these are visually verified. And I'm leery of arguing hard for a player purely based on formulas. But that's pretty good representation (especially since many of these formulas value different things). You know who the WSCORP and VORPCORP formulas love love love? Dominique Wilkins and Allen Iverson. But BackPicks BPM, CORP, PIPM and WOWYR all range from disinterest to *hate* for those two. Because different formulas like different things. But T-Mac shows up pretty well in all of them. The only one he struggles with (Win Share CORP) is the stat I think least of. And he seems to have gotten even better in the playoffs. Here are some regular season vs. playoff comparisons from some of his best years (I'm not using the 'P' word because if I do Odinn will yell at me about how I chose the wrong years and he'll probably be right):

RS '01-'07: 32.9% Usage, 52.8% TS, 9.6% Reb, 28.6% Ast, 9.4% TO, +6.6 OBPM
PO '01-07: 35.1% Usage, 52.7% TS, 8.9% Reb, 34.4% Ast, 10.2% TO, +7.7 BPM

So in the playoffs his usage went up by 2.2%, and between the usage increase and going against playoff defenses (where his team was *always* the lower seed) his efficiency didn't budge. Do you realize how nuts that is? We praise Kobe for his inelastic offense, but T-Mac's statistical resume on that front is superior to Kobe's (granted, we only have five series to look at, so this could be a sample size issue, but still). Are we sure that we aren't just hating on T-Mac because he couldn't get out of the first round? How different is T-Mac's situation from Kobe in '05-'07? Except that a) we'd seen Kobe play with Shaq and it was awesome and b) we got to see Kobe play with Gasol and it was awesome. We never got to see that with T-Mac except for with Yao, and Yao was injured a lot. Here's Kobe from '06-07:

RS '06-'07: 36.2% Usage, 56.8% TS, 7.9% Reb, 24.8% Ast, 9.8% TO, +6.9 OBPM
PO '06-'07: 30.9% Usage, 57.5% TS, 8.1% Reb, 20.9% Ast, 15.0% TO, +4.2 OBPM

Kobe's usage plummets in the playoffs, but he gains little in terms of scoring (though his efficiency is still notably higher than McGrady), his assists fall, his turnovers spike . . . I'm not kidding. Are we sure that T-Mac wasn't a seriously inelastic scoring monster that never got enough support? His Heliocentrism scores, from '01 to '07 (again, VORP is only so good at stuff, but it's something):

'01: 67% RS, 80% PO
'02: 56% RS, 80% PO
'03: 97% RS, 143% PO
'04: 407% RS
'05: 45% RS, 56% PO
'06: 40% RS (missed half the season)
'07: 32% RS, 36% PO

Compare this with Kobe:

'06: 60% RS, 25% PO
'07: 58% RS, 67% PO

Look. I've gone on a while here. I'm just saying. It's pretty clear to me that McGrady's supporting cast in Orland ranged from pretty bad to flaming dumpster fire. And when he moved to Houston he started missing games and wasn't quite himself. I don't know what to make of it. But few players have his resume of stepping his performance in the playoffs, even when acting as the first option on a weak team. The second McGrady gets *any* support he'll have my vote. But until then I'm just going to push him where I can.

Anyhow, on with the list:

2. Rasheed Wallace - I was shocked to have Rasheed jump leaps and bounds over everyone besides McGrady. Pretty much every metric really, really likes him. VORP (which punishes inefficient scoring) only has him slightly above average for this group, but he has the 3rd highest WSCORP and 2nd highest BPCorp. His PIPMCORP is the highest on this list, and his WOWYR of +6.0 is the highest of anyone remaining by a good margin (unless you're counting Bill Walton). So all the box-score driven metrics think fairly well of him, but the impact metrics think he's the best player of anyone being discussed here. Don't forget that he had a habit of showing up on teams that were way better than they seemingly should have been, from the '00 Blazers to the '04-05 Pistons. And also let's point out that the '04 Pistons switched from very good to murderous the second they acquired Rasheed. I'm very comfortable with him being here.

3. Nate Thurmond - I'm surprised to see him this high. But Thurmond was a defensive beast in an era ideally suited to defensive beasts from his position. He historically doesn't get a lot of love because he was likely inferior to Russell/Wilt on defense and to Kareem overall, and he never got to play on any really strong teams. But he was a serious impact-maker, his play strongly driving his teams' success and he played offensive centers better than anyone (ask Kareem). His box-score stuff is all fairly pedestrian, but anything a little more intangible-driven (PIPM, CORP, WOWYR) likes him quite well.

4. Alonzo Mourning - I'll be honest, I knew little of Mourning before I had started to write this up. But he's a very interesting player. At his peak he was actually a strong scorer, combining high usage with solid efficiency. His rebounding was excellent. He wasn't much of a passer and has unpleasant AST%/TO% splits, but that's pretty much the only knock I can throw at him. Also, his prime didn't last as long as you'd wish, seeming to run only from '96-'00, with some decent seasons on either side. And his scoring didn't really translate into the postseason well, keeping about the same usage but shedding 4% of his efficiency, going from good efficiency to around league average. Overall, at first blush, his profile doesn't seem to fit this place on the list. Yay rebounding, yay scoring from a big man, but limited peak longevity and non-resilient scoring doesn't really shout for quality. But then there's his defense. I'm going to ignore his blocks/steals, and focus on context. AuRPM LOVES him, seeing his four year peak at +6.4, +7.2, +7.9, +5.9 (for reference, that's easily one of the best four year stretches available). Basically, the more subtle and context-driven the metric is, the more it likes Mourning. Like Dikembe Mutombo his on-court impact transcended box score metrics; he has the highest PIPM CORP and the highest BackPIcks CORP on this list. Because his box score resume is only decent at this point he gets held here, but the more you like impact metrics, the more you should like Mourning. If his peak had been longer he'd show much higher here I think.

McGrady > Wallace > Thurmond > Mourning > A.Hardaway > Iverson > Giannis > Parker > Worthy > English > B.Jones > Walton > Wilkins > Jokic

Dutchball97 · Post #4 » by **Dutchball97** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 4:54 pm

1. Allen Iverson - He has his faults but that doesn't mean AI wasn't a really good basketball player. His 2001 season as a whole was really good and he has enough other strong seasons in both the regular season and play-offs for me to not see it as a complete outlier. The deep and high level 2001 play-offs are what sets him apart from guys like T-Mac and Giannis who are otherwise comparable but lack that one defining run.

2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - Not the best longevity as he's only 26 and needed a few seasons to grow into his own but at this point in the list I'd definitely argue that 4 elite seasons that include solid post-season play every one of those years is really good. We've already voted in players with similar longevity to that and Giannis' peak is nothing to scoff at. He just lacks that one play-off run that cements him as elite in the post-season for now.

3. Tracy McGrady - T-Mac is pretty much the guard version of Bob Lanier. Both had a high peak, solid prime length and generally played well in the post-season despite little team success. I feel like he's definitely on the level of the last couple of picks and only got moved to the back of that list because the others generally did have deeper play-off runs.

Wes Unseld > Nikola Jokic > Anfernee Hardaway > Alex English > James Worthy > Bobby Jones > Alonzo Mourning > Rasheed Wallace > Tony Parker > Dominique Wilkins > Nate Thurmond > Bill Walton

Post #5 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 5:36 pm

1. Alex English -- Versatility, consistency, and character put English over the likes of Dantley, Nique, Tmac, etc. English played many roles and always made his teams better no matter what role Denver played him in. He was a solid 35-30ppg scorer at above average efficiency for a full decade. In the 1980s he scored more points than Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkens, Adrian Dantley, Isiah Thomas, Moses Malone, or well, anyone. And he did it while generally guarding the better of the opponents starting forwards in the era of the great scoring forwards. From watching him, I have him as the only above average defender among the killer lineup of great scoring fowards of his era (Bird, Gervin, Nique, AD, King, Aquirre). One of the most underrated players in history. Also won numerous citizenship awards, one of the great people to play the game.

2. Bobby Jones, another English type player with super consistency and versatility though a defensive star instead of an offensive one, then maybe Parish. Note that Jones has more 1st team All-Defense teams than any other player in history with 11 (2 ABA). He was 1st All-Defense team every year of his career until his final one where he was 2nd team.

3. Giannis -- Highest prime left outside of Walton but more than 1.5 seasons as a star plus 1 as a reserve, doesn't have the multiple years of hurting his team due to salary/injury.

After Giannis, then Unseld, Mourning, Thurmond, Parker, Nique, Tmac, Hawkins, Moncrief. Those are subject to change and new players to be added.

Hal14 · Post #6 » by **Hal14** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 5:37 pm

1. Nate Thurmond
2. Allen Iverson
3. Alex English

Nate Thurmond - right in that same tier with Reed, Gilmore and Ewing. I see those four centers as pretty debatable. Ewing, Gilmore and Reed all got voted in already - it's Thurmond's time now. Thurmond has a strong case for being better than all 3 of them (probably the best defender of the group, but Gilmore has the longevity and ABA Finals MVP, Reed has 2 Finals MVPs so I've got Thurmond just barely ranked behind those other guys).

Article here:
https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

Excerpt:
Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. “He plays me better than anybody ever has,” Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. “He’s tall, has real long arms, and most of all he’s agile and strong.” In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, “When I score on Nate, I know I’ve done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too.”

"Some basketball observers have suggested that the 6-11 Thurmond provided the best mix of offense and defense in basketball history. Many say that his defense was better than Chamberlain’s, and that his offense was better than Bill Russell’s. With quickness and long hands, a smooth outside shooting touch, tenacious rebounding, classic shot blocking ability, and a total team attitude, Thurmond offered a perfectly balanced package."

Thurmond is one of the most underrated players of all time and is top 50, no question in my mind.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/defensive-dominator-thurmond-one-nbas-most-underrated-all-time

Thurmond went against Wilt, Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Unseld, Bellamy, Beaty, Cowens, Reed - all in their prime. Yet he still managed:

-7 all star games in 14 seasons

-2 times all defensive 1st team, 3 times all defensive 2nd team...despite the fact that all defense awards didn't exist until his 6th season! Clearly one of the best defensive players of all time and one of the best rebounders of all time

-Did not make a 1st or 2nd team all NBA (obviously those usually went to Wilt/Kareem/Russell) but there's very little question he would have made quite a few all NBA 3rd team selections if it existed back when he played

-Finished 2nd in MVP voting in 66-67, finishing ahead of Russell, Robertson and Barry - Thurmond finished no. 2 behind Wilt who was no. 1. Finished 11th in 69-70, 8th in 70-7, 8th in 71-72, 9th in 72-73 and 8th in 73-74

-Helped his team to NBA Finals in 67, where they lost to arguably the greatest team of all time, the 67 Sixers. That series Thurmond averaged 14 PPG and 26.7 RPG while playing 47 MPG, going head to head vs Wilt. Thurmond's Warriors fell in 6 games to Wilt's Sixers. Let's compare that to the Eastern Division Finals - Russell (while also going against Wilt) averaged less PPG (11) and less RPG (23) than Thurmond, and Russell's Celtics lost in 5 games to Wilt's Sixers. How did Wilt do in each series? His numbers. were better in the Eastern Division Finals, going against Russell than they were in the NBA finals vs Thurmond. Wilt went from 21 PPG, 32 RPG and 10 APG vs Russell down to 17 PPG, 28 RPG and 6 APG vs Thurmond.

Allen Iverson
Very underrated guy on this board. Has a strong case over Ginobili and Sam Jones - both got voted in awhile ago. Hell, he can even make a case over Miller and Ray Allen who were both voted in a LONG time ago. I get it, Iverson wasn't the most efficient shooter, but:

-the dude took a beating, he had to carry the team, had such a weak supporting cast of dudes who couldn't score on the Sixers which meant he had to take more shots and defenses geared up to stop him which created higher degree of difficulty for his shots. He still won 4 scoring titles
-Overall a good defender who led the league in steals 3 years in a row
-Won an MVP, beating out Duncan, Shaq, McGrady and KG who were all in their prime - that year he got a team to the NBA finals with a weak supporting cast - and despite going against one of the best teams of all time (01 Lakers) he led the Sixers to a win in game 1 (pretty much everyone assumed it would be a sweep, no contest) on the road in LA, where Iverson put on one of the best performances in NBA finals history
-Wasn't just a scorer, but also averaged 7+ assists 7 times and averaged 6+ assists 10 times...the scoring and assist numbers were especially impressive given the era which was a lower number of possessions

Alex English
He barely gets the edge over Wilkins. Very close. But English with the advantage on shooting efficiency and slight edge on defense and passing barely gives him the nod over Wilkins.

Post #7 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 5:37 pm

English v. Nique v. Tmac

Two of the greatest scorers of the 80s, both classy guys who stayed with one team for a decade. Tmac is a more modern player who gets the advantage of the 3 point shot being used in his lifetime but suffers in terms of leadership and locker room issues as more than 1 of his coaches have complained about his practice habits and insistence on doing things his way instead of playing within the team concept.

Defensively, Tmac has the edge on peak, English on consistency. Strangely enough Wilkins probably played on the best defensive teams with those Mike Fratello Hawks squads but he fails the eye test, once getting voted "player who puts the least effort on defense" in a player contest in Sports Illustrated (over George Gervin who came in second). Tmac could be a terrific defender when locked in; English started with more of a rep as a defensive player than a scorer in Milwaukee and Indiana before coming to Denver and starting a run where he scored more points during the 80s than anyone else, including Larry Bird, Adrian Dantley, and Nique among others.

IN terms of scoring, English is the most efficient, shooting at a .550 ts% for his career, Nique is behind him at .536, with Tmac trailing at .519 though in a tougher defensive era. Since the main value of each of the three is their volume scoring, this seems a strong argument for English. On the other hand, while all three were big volume scorers, Nique scored the most per 100 possessions at 34.5pts (though he was also the most frequently iso scorer rather than scoring in the flow of the offense), Tmac is a 31.6 and English at 30.4. Tmac has the single dominant season of the 3 when Grant Hill went down to injury and Orlando featured Tmac all the time every time; but he was also less consistent and more often injured than the other two. Note: Using the per 100 figure to avoid giving an advantage to English over Nique since English played in an extremely high pace system in DEN and Nique in a relatively low paced one in ATL.

In terms of playmaking, Tmac was the primary playmaker at 7.1 assists per 100 possessions, English a decent secondary playmaker at 5.1, and Wilkins not creating much for others at 3.5. Nique turned the ball over 3.5 times/100 possessions as did Tmac with English in the same neighborhood at 3.3. Rebounding gives the edge to Nique by a hair of Tmac at 9.3 v. 9.1 v. 7.7 to English.

In terms of versatility and a willingness to take on different roles to help the team, English has a strong case, at different times, he was the primary front court defensive stopper (next to Kiki Vandeweghe and Dan Issel, on an admittedly terrible defensive front court), a post up threat (same team), the primary outside shooter (later teams with Fat Lever and TR Dunn at guard), a point forward, an offball player, etc. Tmac played much more 2 guard and even some 4 which neither of the other two did much of, he even played PG at time. Nique changed his game to incorporate a 3 point shot toward the end of his career which English never really added.

Playoff success is the one additional factor that frequently gets mentioned. Tmac went to the playoffs less and never got out of the 1st round but had some great numbers in losing series. From watching him, he tended to play less well when his teammates were strong but would suddenly take on the superman mantle when Hill went out in Orlando or when Yao would get injured in Houston and just be a one man wrecking crew. English's numbers didn't drop at all in the playoffs, maybe because of his versatility. His teams had one WCF appearance and 4 times into the second round for the most playoff success of the 3. Nique is one of the great whose number drop the most precipitously in playoff competition; maybe because he tended to one particular style that could be gamed more, I don't know. He had ATL in the playoffs every year but two but only got out of the 1st round 3 times in the stacked East of his era.

I have it English, Wilkins, Tmac based primarily on efficiency, consistency, and character. Nique and TMac have a definite advantage in flash being great dunkers while English would get a "quiet" 25-30; Nique also had possibly the greatest nickname in NBA history -- this translated into more accolades for the two flashier players.

Post #8 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 6:44 pm

sansterre wrote:It is my custom only to run numbers on players that get votes or are discussed. On occasion a player will get discussed that then vaults into my top 3. It is what it is. That's what happened here with 'Sheed.

Since one Wallace has come up, wondering if you've yet run Big Ben?
Also, where would Unseld fall in this line-up?

sansterre · Post #9 » by **sansterre** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 8:13 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
sansterre wrote:It is my custom only to run numbers on players that get votes or are discussed. On occasion a player will get discussed that then vaults into my top 3. It is what it is. That's what happened here with 'Sheed.

Since one Wallace has come up, wondering if you've yet run Big Ben?
Also, where would Unseld fall in this line-up?

I haven't run Ben. Every single person I've run is on my > > > list.

Unseld is on my list to be done. And now that you've mentioned him, Ben. I'll run them both for the #65 batch.

Post #10 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 8:29 pm

sansterre wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
sansterre wrote:It is my custom only to run numbers on players that get votes or are discussed. On occasion a player will get discussed that then vaults into my top 3. It is what it is. That's what happened here with 'Sheed.

Since one Wallace has come up, wondering if you've yet run Big Ben?
Also, where would Unseld fall in this line-up?

I haven't run Ben. Every single person I've run is on my > > > list.

Unseld is on my list to be done. And now that you've mentioned him, Ben. I'll run them both for the #65 batch.

Well, if you're just taking suggestions as to whom to run, I'll make a few other requests and/or recommendations....

Bob McAdoo
Shawn Marion
Chris Bosh
Horace Grant
Larry Nance
Dan Issel [can you include ABA in whatever algorithm you're using?]
Sidney Moncrief

Cavsfansince84 · Post #11 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 8:32 pm

trex_8063 wrote:

3rd vote: Wes Unseld
Solid [but not great] post defender and team defender (smart in his positioning, physical, and near-impossible to move if he didn't want to be moved; solid box-out big, too). Possible GOAT in screen-setting and outlet passing, as has been often stated. Efficient low-volume scorer, definitely one of the better/best passing bigs left on the table, and and offensive rebounding threat. Seemingly a model teammate and certainly one of the better intangible leader-types left on the table.

This feels about right considering his full legacy. That said, I'm not 100% set in this pick [in particular, could see going with Thurmond, too].
So if anyone wants to specifically frame an argument of Thurmond > Unseld, I'm listening.

Wouldn't the argument for Thurmond be overall better defense/rim protection and having a more central scoring role in offense for a large number of years? Nate did average over 20ppg 5 straight years while Wes only averaged in double figures 6 times and his scoring role was greatly diminished after his first 5 seasons(granted Wes was scoring on a better % but that''s obviously easier to do on a much smaller role). Nate also finished top 10 in mvp voting more times(5>3). Not that there's no argument for Wes as well but I just feel like Thurmond was more suited to filling a larger role on both sides of the ball. Had Unseld's overall production stayed the same or gone up slightly from his first 5 seasons over the next 5-7 I'd have more confidence in having him ahead of Nate. I'd just say that Nate's overall prime seems more impressive and that he is in the argument for top 5 def center of all time.

Odinn21 · Post #12 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 8:48 pm

64. Alonzo Mourning
It's quite insane that we as a group have forgotten about Mourning. He had Walton-Reed like career in a way but the unlucky injury hit him much later. He had 8 good prime seasons with very very good peak. Still a prime longer than A. Davis and also arguably better. He still had 4 seasons of regular games after the injury, his overall longevity isn't great but it's there. His intangibles were great.

65. Tony Parker
His peak is underrated, also how long his peak lasted is underrated. I'd personally pick 2013 as his peak but I definitely see someone going for 2009 which was only to be disrupted by injury in 2010 in the future. In 2009, he was in the top 10% percentile in impact numbers. In 2012 and 2013 he was in the very top 1%. He usually is considered as not so great impact player but he really was at his best. His prime duration beyond peak duration was also good. He had 9 seasons of actual prime with 4 seasons worthy of peak. Even before going into extended prime which I usually refer as just prime, he was a force for a decade and a half. Yeah, his overall longevity is worse than Parish without a doubt but I think edges going in his favour for peak and prime are more than that.
Some of us in here usually look at WS or VORP but in Parker's case, sheer numbers are more telling.
He's #10* in total points and #5 in total assists in the pro playoff history. It's very likely that Durant will surpass Parker for that #10 spot in 2021 playoffs but the point stands still. Parker is the only player in top 20 to make the list yet it's obvious that his peak/prime/longevity stack more than enough at this point in the list.
(*He's #9 in the NBA playoff history. Erving's ABA career.)

66. Nate Thurmond
This was between Thurmond and McGrady for me. As I discussed in Giannis/Hawkins/McGrady thread, I think McGrady is too underrated for his prime right now. Though, between him and Thurmond, Thurmond beats McGrady in number of prime seasons. Nate had one or two more prime seasons than McGrady 30 years before. I don't think McGrady's quality advantage is big enough for me to go with him here.
(I might change Thumond with Unseld though, I need to sleep on it.)

Unseld > McGrady > English > Iverson > Sheed > Giannis > Jokic > B. Jones > Walton

---

trex_8063 wrote:3rd vote: Wes Unseld
Solid [but not great] post defender and team defender (smart in his positioning, physical, and near-impossible to move if he didn't want to be moved; solid box-out big, too). Possible GOAT in screen-setting and outlet passing, as has been often stated. Efficient low-volume scorer, definitely one of the better/best passing bigs left on the table, and and offensive rebounding threat. Seemingly a model teammate and certainly one of the better intangible leader-types left on the table.

This feels about right considering his full legacy. That said, I'm not 100% set in this pick [in particular, could see going with Thurmond, too].
So if anyone wants to specifically frame an argument of Thurmond > Unseld, I'm listening.

I'm usually higher on high motor / high scoring players than great facilitators. Thurmond feels he'd be that good and that impactful in a bigger variety of scenarios.

sansterre · Post #13 » by **sansterre** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 8:56 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
sansterre wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
Since one Wallace has come up, wondering if you've yet run Big Ben?
Also, where would Unseld fall in this line-up?

I haven't run Ben. Every single person I've run is on my > > > list.

Unseld is on my list to be done. And now that you've mentioned him, Ben. I'll run them both for the #65 batch.

Well, if you're just taking suggestions as to whom to run, I'll make a few other requests and/or recommendations....

Bob McAdoo
Shawn Marion
Chris Bosh
Horace Grant
Larry Nance
Dan Issel [can you include ABA in whatever algorithm you're using?]
Sidney Moncrief

I shall happily do so.

But in return, I'd appreciate a different favor. I would really like any playoffs you can think of where any of these players (or any of those listed by anyone) missed time from injury.

Dnt hate · Post #14 » by **Dnt hate** » Mon Mar 1, 2021 10:51 pm

Iverson, he has become underrated

Post #15 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Mar 2, 2021 1:05 am

If by underrated you mean that people look at what he actually accomplished and the player he always was rather than just PPG and the myth and aren't that impressed . . . well, yeah. There's more to the game than just scoring a lot of points, especially when you don't do it that well.

HeartBreakKid · Post #16 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:06 am

Criteria

Spoiler:

1) Bill Walton. He is the best player by far here. He was probably a top 3 player in the world during his last couple years in college as well, though I believe this is NBA only. I am quite certain that Bill Walton is a top 20 peak ever. He is a top ten defensive anchor which alone adds more value than anyone left, and his offensive passing can generate very efficient offenses without him needing to score.

2)) Nikola Jokic. #2 vote I'll give to the only guy who is large and passes better than Walton. I'm not a longevity guy but Jokic has actually been a star caliber player for longer than people think. He was greatly underplayed in his 2nd season and Malone was criticized for that even back then. He has 4 seasons of all-star impact and two seasons where I had him as the 2nd best player in the league. I do think his offense is so special from his position that it causes an imbalance that makes him more valuable than two way bigs. His scoring ability might be the best among all the bigs left, and what's great about him is that he doesn't need to score a lot to have impact. Walton's defense is so intense that I can't imagine taking Jokic over that, but everyone else left is a tier or 2 down from either Walton's offense or his defense.

3) Giannis Antetokounmpo - I can see why he isn't getting much traction as he's still young. Though he has 6 seasons of being a good player and 5/6 of them he was all-nba caliber I think. Two well deserved MVP's is nothing to scoff at and even though he is slammed for his playoff failures he still did make the conference finals. I am fairly convinced that his crazy ability to finish in the paint as well as have the handles to get into there produces so much gravity that if he played with another real star you wouldn't be able to just "stay back and let Giannis shoot". As he is now he still requires 3-4 guys jumping in the paint - what if you replaced Khris Middleton with Curry, Bryant, Durant, Pierce etc - these are all guys who were 2nd options or co-anchors of teams. Seems like a lot of players who do not have MVP caliber teammates are held to the same standards as guys with them which does not make sense to me. I can see why me picking Jokic would be controversial, but Giannis seems pretty primed for this type of competition - I don't think he is any less valuable than Anthony Davis, and I am still not sure how Davis winning a title with LBJ convinces people that he is a much better post season player than Giannis.

Alonzo Mourning. He's not much worse than Dwight Howard who I think is comfortably a top 40 player. I think Alonzo is not as good of a defender as his reputation suggest but his verticality is still very intimidating. His flawed offensive game is well documented in this section so I don't see a reason to dog him, but he is still a legitimate two way player with massive defensive impact. I just remembered Giannis existed so he bumps Alonzo out.

Mourning> Unseld > Thurmond>McGrady> Jones> English> Iverson> Wilkins

HeartBreakKid · Post #17 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:07 am

Lol damn I missed the last two threads due to holiday and the guys at the bottom of my priority list (Parish, Cousy) both made it D:

LA Bird · Post #18 » by **LA Bird** » Tue Mar 2, 2021 8:12 am

I'll probably get back to voting in this from next round but I don't see the case for Iverson over Carter like at all. Peak, prime, longevity, box score, +/- stats all goes to Carter and he is easier to build around as well. Mourning and Carter will most likely be my #1 and #2 vote but I'll need to check how I rate all the other potential candidates since there are a lot of names here.

euroleague · Post #19 » by **euroleague** » Tue Mar 2, 2021 9:56 am

trex_8063 wrote:2nd vote: Bob Cousy
As I briefly elaborated on around post-20 or thereabout in the #61 thread, Cousy actually has a number of striking similarities to Iverson in terms of player type and career arc.
Both guys were extraordinarily popular fan-favorites who shaped the evolution of the game to some degree. Both guys probably received more "credit" than was strictly deserved from mainstream media.

Cousy obviously has A LOT more team success to his credit, more awards/accolades, and led multiple elite/near-elite offenses [better than anything Iverson was ever a part of] in his pre-Russell years.
otoh, all these things occurred in a [imo] weaker era, his team success is largely tied to Russell [I've little doubt Iverson would have multiple rings in his shoes, fwiw], and he was a less consistent playoff performer compared to Iverson. Gun to my head, I'd also probably give Iverson a small edge defensively [although Cousy was a very good rebounding PG in the 1950s].
For those reasons, I tentatively have Iverson just ahead, but they are literally adjacent on my ATL.

Cousy is already in.

euroleague · Post #20 » by **euroleague** » Tue Mar 2, 2021 9:59 am

1. Bill Walton
2. Giannis Antetekoumpo
3. Sidney Moncrief

1. Bill Walton - This may be a lot higher than most have him, but his run at his best was so elite, both in the regular and post-season, i feel comfortable putting him this high. MVP, FMVP, would've won DPOOY, 6MOY with the Celtics on a GOAT level team. McHale had a bigger role on those teams, and will probably be my next selection, but Walton's brief period of being arguably the best player in the league, and winning Portland's only title, put him this high for me.

2. Giannis Antetekoumpo - I somehow missed him when I was making my last list, as I remember considering him as the next player up after Walton many, many threads ago. MVP and DPOY caliber player, who has redefined the way the NBA looks at athletic prospects. Even though his career is still in its infancy, he's played several years at an all-time high peak, and has breathed life into the franchise of the Bucks. He hasn't revolutionized the game, and is more of an LBJ 2.0 type player in the way Kobe was MJ 2.0, but I still think his defensive presence and offensive mismatches have caused havoc and something different to the NBA.

3. Sidney Moncrief - this choice is quite difficult, as there are many options at this stage - Penny, Alonzo Mourning, Dominique Wilkins, and Pete Maravich were the ones I was debating. In the end, I think Moncrief's defensive dominance, his longer peak, and his play in the context of his team being contenders every single year of his prime put him on top for me. The 80s was extremely stacked, and failing to beat Bird's Celtics and Dr J's 76ers is hardly a slander on anyone. So, Moncrief comes in 3rd for my vote.

Penny, Alonzo Mourning, Dominique Wilkins, and Pete Maravich are in order of my rankings.