How do you think the 1980's play out if Magic Johnson did not exist

[coastalmarker99]

If Magic Johnson did not exist

Do you think Bird now enters the goat debate as he would now have 5 rings and 4 finals MVPs to his name to go along with his 3 or 4 regular-season MVPs?

Do you think Kareem's legacy is not as great as it nowadays if he only finishes his 20-year career with one ring, which he won in 1971 alongside Oscar?

Do you think the 76ers become a dynasty under Julius Erving if they win titles in 1980, 1982 and 1983, and if so, how does that affect Erving's all-time ranking nowadays if he has two finals MVPs to go along with 3 rings and a regular-season Mvp.

Do you think the West becomes wide open for the entire 1980s meaning that we see many different West teams throughout the decade make it to the finals instead of only the Rockets and Lakers?



Also do you think the greatest team rivalry of the 1980s now becomes the 76ers vs the Celtics as both teams would now know that if they make it to the finals that they would have a massive chance of winning the title against the weaker western teams?

[Goudelock]

Those early-80s Spurs probably make it to at least one NBA Finals, and George Gervin's legacy is suddenly probably one as a top-25 player rather than a fringe top-50 guy in the eyes of many (assuming he still gets buckets in the Finals and plays well enough). San Antonio is probably duking it out with Phoenix for the early part of the decade.

Later on, the Nuggets and Mavericks are duking it out for the privilege of getting blasted by the Celtics or Pistons.

[Owly]

Depends on what else you assume happens. If the butterfly effect only kicks off at draft time, West has suggested he liked Moncrief and he's huge upgrade at what is a position of need for the Lakers initially.

[penbeast0]

I'm far from sure that Norm Nixon and company wouldn't be able to win a ring or three with Kareem. Now, if the Lakers take David Greenwood (the 2nd choice) who was sort of an average PF, that does fit with their weakest spot but he's clearly no Magic. Sid would clearly be better for his 4 year prime, though he doesn't last as long as Greenwood.

With Sid, you have roughly the same balance as in the Magic years as Sid can play 1-3; less playmaking and rebounding, better defense, similar scoring as long as he is healthy and teaming him with Michael Cooper in the backcourt is a nasty defensive combo if the frontcourt provides enough scoring . . . Kareem is more sullen and withdrawn as he was his 1st few years as a Laker but that's still championship level talent around him and that's still a young group around the veteran Kareem.

They don't deal Nixon for Scott. When Wilkes, the oldest of them other than Kareem, starts to age, they had the draft choice to take Worthy. They are still the cream of the Western Conference for a solid decade even without Magic.

[coastalmarker99]

Depends on what else you assume happens. If the butterfly effect only kicks off at draft time, West has suggested he liked Moncrief and he's huge upgrade at what is a position of need for the Lakers initially.

It is possible that a duo of Kareem and Moncrief could make the finals throughout the 1980s or would the Lakers title window be utterly reliant on how much Kareem still has left to give.

[70sFan]

Those early-80s Spurs probably make it to at least one NBA Finals, and George Gervin's legacy is suddenly probably one as a top-25 player rather than a fringe top-50 guy in the eyes of many (assuming he still gets buckets in the Finals and plays well enough). San Antonio is probably duking it out with Phoenix for the early part of the decade.

Later on, the Nuggets and Mavericks are duking it out for the privilege of getting blasted by the Celtics or Pistons.

Gervin and Gilmore getting a ring in 1983? I like it

[coastalmarker99]

Those early-80s Spurs probably make it to at least one NBA Finals, and George Gervin's legacy is suddenly probably one as a top-25 player rather than a fringe top-50 guy in the eyes of many (assuming he still gets buckets in the Finals and plays well enough). San Antonio is probably duking it out with Phoenix for the early part of the decade.

Later on, the Nuggets and Mavericks are duking it out for the privilege of getting blasted by the Celtics or Pistons.

Gervin and Gilmore getting a ring in 1983? I like it

But they would run up against the 1983 76ers who were one of the top ten teams of all time so it would be a very difficult series for the Spurs to win.

Unless both Gervin and Gilmore both play utterly out of their minds for the entire series and I am also not sure how Gilmore would have handled Moses that year but I think he would have at least done a better job then Kareem did.

[Goudelock]

Those early-80s Spurs probably make it to at least one NBA Finals, and George Gervin's legacy is suddenly probably one as a top-25 player rather than a fringe top-50 guy in the eyes of many (assuming he still gets buckets in the Finals and plays well enough). San Antonio is probably duking it out with Phoenix for the early part of the decade.

Later on, the Nuggets and Mavericks are duking it out for the privilege of getting blasted by the Celtics or Pistons.

Gervin and Gilmore getting a ring in 1983? I like it

But they would run up against the 1983 76ers who were one of the top ten teams of all time so it would be a very difficult series for the Spurs to win.

You have a point, but I think Gervin would have a good shot at bagging a ring in 1982 (sorry Artis) against a much-weaker team.

[70sFan]

Those early-80s Spurs probably make it to at least one NBA Finals, and George Gervin's legacy is suddenly probably one as a top-25 player rather than a fringe top-50 guy in the eyes of many (assuming he still gets buckets in the Finals and plays well enough). San Antonio is probably duking it out with Phoenix for the early part of the decade.

Later on, the Nuggets and Mavericks are duking it out for the privilege of getting blasted by the Celtics or Pistons.

Gervin and Gilmore getting a ring in 1983? I like it

But they would run up against the 1983 76ers who were one of the top ten teams of all time so it would be a very difficult series for the Spurs to win.

Unless both Gervin and Gilmore both play utterly out of their minds for the entire series and I am also not sure how Gilmore would have handled Moses that year but I think he would have at least done a better job then Kareem did.

Yeah, I know that - it's just my wish-thinking

[coastalmarker99]

Also, How do you think Kareem's mentality gets affected if the Lakers have problems winning the title through 1980 to 1983 against both the Celtics and Sixers does he become more withdrawn and angry at both his teammates and press afterwards or does he in fact give up and retire at around age 37 to 38.

[70sFan]

Also, How do you think Kareem's mentality gets affected if the Lakers have problems winning the title through 1980 to 1983 against both the Celtics and Sixers does he become more withdrawn and angry at both his teammates and press afterwards or does he in fact give up and retire.

He wins the title in 1981 without Magic and with Moncrief instead

[coastalmarker99]

Also, How do you think Kareem's mentality gets affected if the Lakers have problems winning the title through 1980 to 1983 against both the Celtics and Sixers does he become more withdrawn and angry at both his teammates and press afterwards or does he in fact give up and retire.

He wins the title in 1981 without Magic and with Moncrief instead

Would have had to go up against Bird's Celtics in the finals without HCA so both the Lakers and Kareem would be big underdogs to win that finals series. While I do think Kareem would play awesome as he would want revenge against the Celtics for his loss in the 1974 finals I am not so sure that his supporting cast would outplay the Celtic's supporting cast.


So I give it to the Celtics in 6 or 7 games so that means that despite Kareem carrying his team throughout the playoffs in 1981 he suffers another painful game 7 finals loss at the hands of the Celtics.

[coastalmarker99]

If Kareem wins only one ring for his career with the Bucks in 1971 I could see him getting pushed down to the 9th or 8th spot all-time nowadays by both fans and media which would be unfair.














Julius would dominate the early 80s with at least 3 rings maybe 4 if he does not choke in 1981 putting him in the top ten of all time especially if you include his Aba achievements along and then Bird would basically take over the league after 1983.




Winning four straight rings from 1984 to 1987 and 3 straight regular-season MVPs from 1984 to 1986 might see him be put in the top 5 players of all time by both fans and media.

[70sFan]

Why do we assume that Kareem wouldn't get a ring in 1980 or 1981? He was still the best player in the league, he had strong roster and without Magic he'd have likely played with Moncrief instead. I don't find 1980 and 1981 Magic such a game changer that his absence would destroy Lakers chances in the early 1980s.

Later in the 1980s, I don't think Lakers could compete without him and without major roster changes of course - he was amazing in 1985-91 period.

[Dutchball97]

1980 is a difficult scenario. Does Kareem still get injured or does that not happen with the game turning out different without Magic. 3-2 up without Magic there to fill in for an injured Kareem and I don't see them bringing it home but with a healthy Kareem I'm pretty confident they still win the title. 1982 even more so really, Magic's role in that post-season could be taken over by any decent guard and they'd still win.

They don't win in 85, 87 and 88 though. Kareem would have 3 rings instead of 6 but winning 2 more without another All-Time great might even somewhat help his case. The Celtics would 4-peat from 84-87 and the Pistons would then 3-peat from 88-90. Magic not being there would just make the 80s less competitive and a whole lot less exciting though.

[ty 4191]

The Eastern Conference was so much drastically tougher, and more physical in the 80’s.

A few facts to consider:
-Including the playoffs, the Eastern Conference had a .540 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference from 1980 to 1989. That is a staggering differential.

-The Celtics played 214 games against the Western Conference from 1980-1988. Their overall record was .785. Conversely, the Lakers’ winning percentage against the Eastern Comference during the same years was only .712.

- Bird’s teams were pushed to a Game 7 in 7 different Series’ from 1980-1988. Magic’s teams, only 3, and that was all in 1988 itself.

Bird had it SO SO much tougher than Magic, yet Magic is considered the greater player (easily) and everyone always cites the number of Finals appearances in the 80’s, the Number of championships won, and their head to head record in the Finals.

I agree completely with @coastalmarker99. The Celtics and Bird playing in the Western Comference do even better than the Lakers playing in the Eastern Conference 1980-1988.

And Bird should be regarded as greater than Magic, and the better winner....not vice versa.

[coastalmarker99]

Why do we assume that Kareem wouldn't get a ring in 1980 or 1981? He was still the best player in the league, he had strong roster and without Magic he'd have likely played with Moncrief instead. I don't find 1980 and 1981 Magic such a game changer that his absence would destroy Lakers chances in the early 1980s.

Later in the 1980s, I don't think Lakers could compete without him and without major roster changes of course - he was amazing in 1985-91 period.

If Kareem still gets hurt in the 1980 finals I am not sure that Moncrief that brings it home in a game 6 and remember that without Magic that year. Philly might have the homecourt advantage as the two team's records were only separated by one game and that was with Magic playing great that year.



So, therefore, winning the title in 1980 would be very tough for Kareem especially if he does not have the HCA in the finals that year even if he is fully healthy for the series and playing out of his mind as he did with Magic in real life. Therefore I believe that the 76ers take the series in seven games and win the title on their home floor.





1981 is also very tough as once again Kareem would not have the HCA against Bird's Celtics that year in the finals and with the Garden Advantage that the Celtics would have up to that point as the Lakers had lost six times to them in the 1960s. Therefore I believe that once again that Kareem would come up just short in the finals despite playing out of his mind throughout the series as his supporting cast wouldn't have been able to handle the sheer pressure of facing the Celtics just like they did in real life in 1984.




1982 is Kareem's last real great chance at winning a ring with the Lakers as he would be now 35 years old and once again he would go into the finals without HCA and that might prove crucial as without Magic the series would go once again the full distance as it did in 1980 and if does I am backing the Sixers to win another finals game 7 against the Lakers giving them two titles in 3 years.








So Kareem's loses 3 straight finals from 1980 to 1982 despite playing great in all of those series as the HCA would prove too much to overcome against both the Sixers and Celtics without Magic's leadership and skills as a player to back up Kareem.

[SNPA]

If Magic Johnson did not exist

Do you think Bird now enters the goat debate as he would now have 5 rings and 4 finals MVPs to his name to go along with his 3 or 4 regular-season MVPs?

Do you think Kareem's legacy is not as great as it nowadays if he only finishes his 20-year career with one ring, which he won in 1971 alongside Oscar?

Do you think the 76ers become a dynasty under Julius Erving if they win titles in 1980, 1982 and 1983, and if so, how does that affect Erving's all-time ranking nowadays if he has two finals MVPs to go along with 3 rings and a regular-season Mvp.

Do you think the West becomes wide open for the entire 1980s meaning that we see many different West teams throughout the decade make it to the finals instead of only the Rockets and Lakers?



Also do you think the greatest team rivalry of the 1980s now becomes the 76ers vs the Celtics as both teams would now know that if they make it to the finals that they would have a massive chance of winning the title against the weaker western teams?

Any GOAT debate that doesn’t have Bird is either a longevity focused debate or a debate held by people that don’t know about basketball.