09-13 LeBron vs 84-88 Larry Bird

[Homer38]

Who was better and how big is the gap between his two players during this 5 years span?

[limbo]

LeBron...

Big enough to the point where LeBron is better at every single facet of the game probably outside of FT and outside shooting, and even then he was peaking at like 45% mid-range shooter in 2011 and 2013 (and more than that in the 2009 Playoffs), and 40% 3pt shooter in 2010 Playoffs and 2013 RS. So LeBron definitely had his moments as a great shooter in those periods, conversely, Bird's outside shooting wasn't always as dialed in as people have mythicized.

[70sFan]

LeBron quite clearly to me. His defense alone gives him significant edge and I'd argue that he was at least as good offensively (probably a bit better to be honest). On top of that, he was more consistent player in that period - his only weak points are the second part of 2010 series and full 2011 finals, but that's not worse than Bird's 1985 finals and 1988 ECF.

[70sFan]

Big enough to the point where LeBron is better at every single facet of the game probably outside of FT and outside shooting

I also have James comfortably, but that's not true. Bird was far better off-ball player for once and it's significant part of the game.

[GYK]

Lebron. A prime I only have Jordan and maybe Kareem above. Maybe just maybe Wilt is arguable. It was four straight seasons being the undeniable best in the league.
Bird has two seasons in comparison. Which is massively impressive. From 74-present I only have 27 seasons someone was truly king. 85 and 86 are one of them yet might be the worst of Lebron prime. Let alone the other seasons.

[limbo]

Big enough to the point where LeBron is better at every single facet of the game probably outside of FT and outside shooting

I also have James comfortably, but that's not true. Bird was far better off-ball player for once and it's significant part of the game.

Well, LeBron was a better off-ball cutter, lob finisher, and a better running mate in transition than Bird... if you count those things towards 'off-ballness', which i'm not sure why you wouldn't. Bird probably had more shooting gravity off-ball, that is true, but LeBron was not really used in that manor in the first place, so it's kind of moot. I chalk Bird's shooting gravitas and off-ball movement together with his overall playmaking value, which i deem as lesser than LeBron's package of playmaking. Somehow, LeBron retains most of his playmaking prowess while transforming into one of the best catch and shoot players in the league in 2013 (and 2014, but that year is not included).

It's like comparing Duncan and CP3 and saying Duncan was a better post passer than Paul... True, but that's because their styles on offense are basically the opposite. So what's the bigger picture here? The bigger picture is Paul is still a better overall playmaker because his overall value as a playmaker supersedes that of Duncan.

[70sFan]

Big enough to the point where LeBron is better at every single facet of the game probably outside of FT and outside shooting

I also have James comfortably, but that's not true. Bird was far better off-ball player for once and it's significant part of the game.

Well, LeBron was a better off-ball cutter, lob finisher, and a better running mate in transition than Bird... if you count those things towards 'off-ballness', which i'm not sure why you wouldn't. Bird probably had more shooting gravity off-ball, that is true, but LeBron was not really used in that manor in the first place, so it's kind of moot. I chalk Bird's shooting gravitas and off-ball movement together with his overall playmaking value, which i deem as lesser than LeBron's package of playmaking. Somehow, LeBron retains most of his playmaking prowess while transforming into one of the best catch and shoot players in the league in 2013 (and 2014, but that year is not included).

When was James used as a cutter to the degree that could be significant in this discussion? Or lob finisher? Transition is legit point, but the rest don't make any sense. I also like how you bring up Bird's advantaves, but then say "whatever". No, it's not arguable that Bird was better off-ball player in halfcourt. Larry was excellent at using screens, setting screens, moving without the ball, exploiting openings in split second and offensive rebounding. This, along with his post game (which is also an off-ball skill in 90%) is Bird's entire halfocurt offense. He didn't handle the ball, he didn't run P&Rs often and he didn't play iso ball. His whole offense was built around off-ball action, this is something James never tried to emulate.

Sure, you can say "it's related to role", but with that reasoning you can also argue that James would be better in Reggie Miller's role than Reggie himself - he just never tried it. I can also use the same reasoning to say that Bird would be as good as James as a lead ball-handler, he just never tried it.

James was never one of the best catch and shoot players in the league by the way - volume matters, efficiency without it means almost nothing.

[limbo]

When was James used as a cutter to the degree that could be significant in this discussion? Or lob finisher? Transition is legit point, but the rest don't make any sense. I also like how you bring up Bird's advantaves, but then say "whatever". No, it's not arguable that Bird was better off-ball player in halfcourt. This, along with his post game (which is also an off-ball skill in 90%) is Bird's entire halfocurt offense. He didn't handle the ball, he didn't run P&Rs often and he didn't play iso ball.

Plenty of times, despite playing with mostly overall weak passers in his career and shooting guards masquerading as point guards (Boobie Gibson, Mo Williams, Mario Chalmers, Kyrie Irving, Avery Bradley/Alex Caruso). LeBron managed to show me enough in those years for to see him as a better cutter than Bird, despite the fact that he might have been used as a cutter three times every game, because he was busy playing on-ball as he was better at it than 99.9% of the league and all his teammates.

I mean, it's not really rocket science here... We're talking about one of the quickest, strongest, most athletic players of all-time with an incredible motor and vert that finishes extremely well under the rim. You think this guy would have had trouble being a high level cutter if he didn't have enough other valuable on-ball skills? If not anything else, he would most certainly be better than Larry Bird in that area.

Lob finisher? Well, if you are willing to go back and tell me how many lobs has Larry Bird finished with a made basket in his career, i promise you i will do the same for LeBron... But i have a sneaky suspicion we would just both end up wasting our time, as LeBron is inconceivably ahead in this regard. And yes, maybe a good portion of his lob finishes come in transition, running the wing (still counts), but he had his fair share of back door cuts that ended up in easy dunks, especially in his younger, more athletic days. 1

Larry was excellent at using screens, setting screens, moving without the ball, exploiting openings in split second and offensive rebounding.

So was LeBron. Just because he less of some of those things or did them differently (due to being arguably the best on-ball player in the league), doesn't mean he was worse in those areas. And again, it depends on what you are looking for. Who was better using screens by leveraging their shooting ability? Definitely Bird. Who was better at using screens to drive to the basket? Definitely LeBron. So now what?

His whole offense was built around off-ball action, this is something James never tried to emulate.

And for good reason. He was able to dominate and have a bigger impact on the game by having the ball in his hands, like most of the best offensive players of all-time.

Sure, you can say "it's related to role", but with that reasoning you can also argue that James would be better in Reggie Miller's role than Reggie himself - he just never tried it. I can also use the same reasoning to say that Bird would be as good as James as a lead ball-handler, he just never tried it.

Not really. I didn't say James was better than Reggie and Bird at leveraging his shooting ability off-ball. That is something i think those two did better and came more natural to them. But it's inconsequential to the bigger picture, because James didn't need to do that to be considered a better scorer or a better playmaker.

But also, that's just one area of 'off-ball' impact... LeBron clearly has his advantages off-ball compared to both Bird and Reggie Miller, as he's simply a more physically/athletically dominant player (and it's not close) so anything that has to do with him running, grabbing the ball and trying to finish, or using the threat of his inside scoring, he will have a huge advantage over them, and at his peak, he was also a solid catch and shooter, despite only using that seldom, the Heat weren't really building the offense around that, because that would be stupid.

Look, when i say LeBron was better on offense at pretty much every single aspect, i mean both of the macro things, like scoring, playmaking (a mixture of on-ball and off-ball). I don't literally mean every single aspect... It's pretty much impossible for a single player to dominate every aspect of the game simultaneously. You can't be a high volume inside finisher, a high volume 3pt shooter and a high volume playmaker at the same time (Harden says hi). Well... you can't be one of the best off-ball catch and shoot players and the best low post passer at the same time...

That's why if i say James Harden is better in every single facet offensively than Al Jefferson... I don't expect someone to go ''THATS NOT TRUE, ALL JEFFERSON WAS A BETTER POST SCORER''... Ok? What relevance does that have to the overall picture? Harden can score in other ways and when we draw the line, he comes out looking like a better scorer both in volume and efficiency overall. The same goes with playmaking. Klay Thompson may be the better at leveraging his shooting ability/outside gravity but does that make him a better in any macro aspect than Dwyane Wade? Wade's ability to drive, finish/pass at a high level, run the break and draw fouls all made him have more impact on manipulating the defense than Thompson.

[70sFan]

Plenty of times, despite playing with mostly overall weak passers in his career and shooting guards masquerading as point guards (Boobie Gibson, Mo Williams, Mario Chalmers, Kyrie Irving, Avery Bradley/Alex Caruso). LeBron managed to show me enough in those years for to see him as a better cutter than Bird, despite the fact that he might have been used as a cutter three times every game, because he was busy playing on-ball as he was better at it than 99.9% of the league and all his teammates.

I mean, it's not really rocket science here... We're talking about one of the quickest, strongest, most athletic players of all-time with an incredible motor and vert that finishes extremely well under the rim. You think this guy would have had trouble being a high level cutter if he didn't have enough other valuable on-ball skills? If not anything else, he would most certainly be better than Larry Bird in that area.

I don't question that James is better cutter, I question that it's relevant because James never was used as cutter and it doesn't give a team any significant advantage.

Lob finisher? Well, if you are willing to go back and tell me how many lobs has Larry Bird finished with a made basket in his career, i promise you i will do the same for LeBron... But i have a sneaky suspicion we would just both end up wasting our time, as LeBron is inconceivably ahead in this regard. And yes, maybe a good portion of his lob finishes come in transition, running the wing (still counts), but he had his fair share of back door cuts that ended up in easy dunks, especially in his younger, more athletic days. 1

Same thing - I don't doubt that James is better lob finisher, but this is not used aspect of James game. He finishes what - one lob per 3 games? It's not like some bigs that are real lob threats on halfcourt, James ability to finish lobs is irrelevant in macroscopic sense.

So was LeBron. Just because he less of some of those things or did them differently (due to being arguably the best on-ball player in the league), doesn't mean he was worse in those areas. And again, it depends on what you are looking for. Who was better using screens by leveraging their shooting ability? Definitely Bird. Who was better at using screens to drive to the basket? Definitely LeBron. So now what?

Come on, James isn't as good as Bird at using screens and he's certainly not as skilled off-ball mover as him... It's not only about volume, Bird is simply smarter at moving without the ball. I don't know how you can question that...

And for good reason. He was able to dominate and have a bigger impact on the game by having the ball in his hands, like most of the best offensive players of all-time.

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not as good off-ball.

Not really. I didn't say James was better than Reggie and Bird at leveraging his shooting ability off-ball. That is something i think those two did better and came more natural to them. But it's inconsequential to the bigger picture, because James didn't need to do that to be considered a better scorer or a better playmaker.

We're not talking who's better scorer or playmaker, but who's better off-ball player.

Look, when i say LeBron was better on offense at pretty much every single aspect, i mean both of the macro things, like scoring, playmaking (a mixture of on-ball and off-ball). I don't literally mean every single aspect... It's pretty much impossible for a single player to dominate every aspect of the game simultaneously. You can't be a high volume inside finisher, a high volume 3pt shooter and a high volume playmaker at the same time (Harden says hi). Well... you can't be one of the best off-ball catch and shoot players and the best low post passer at the same time...

That's why if i say James Harden is better in every single facet offensively than Al Jefferson... I don't expect someone to go ''THATS NOT TRUE, ALL JEFFERSON WAS A BETTER POST SCORER''... Ok? What relevance does that have to the overall picture? Harden can score in other ways and when we draw the line, he comes out looking like a better scorer both in volume and efficiency overall. The same goes with playmaking. Klay Thompson may be the better at leveraging his shooting ability/outside gravity but does that make him a better in any macro aspect than Dwyane Wade? Wade's ability to drive, finish/pass at a high level, run the break and draw fouls all made him have more impact on manipulating the defense than Thompson.

So you basically say that James is better than Bird overall, but it's not the same thing you said. I'd definitely consider off-ball game as a macro thing. Off-ball game is a huge aspect of basketball game...

[sansterre]

Overall, James pretty clearly.

To be the highest-usage player on my team? James definitely.

The only scenario where I'd be tempted to say Bird is to add onto a team that's already 55+ wins. That's at the range where I'd have to think about it. And even then you could argue that James, if motivated, could morph into Super-Draymond, though that hypothesizes something that has never happened.

[No-more-rings]

I’d consider taking Bird if we were talking just offense, otherwise it’s not even a hard decision to go Lebron here.

[kendogg]

LeBron's defense is pretty overrated in most seasons, and Larry's is underrated. They have the exact same DBPM for their careers (1.8). Larry doesn't have LeBron's athleticism, but he has more hustle and a better motor and just as much defensive awareness. Larry is also very tough for his size, though obviously not as purely strong as LeBron. LeBron's defensive peak is higher, yes, but defense is about consistent effort and there's a lot about defense that does not get tracked by the box score. Both are amazing lead by example players who lift up their teammates as well with their tireless efforts. But neither are players who are typically taking the toughest defensive assignment and instead contribute with excellent help defense.

LeBron is still better, but it is a LOT closer than people are giving him credit for. They are both S+ tier players.

[homecourtloss]

LeBron's defense is pretty overrated in most seasons, and Larry's is underrated. They have the exact same DBPM for their careers (1.8). Larry doesn't have LeBron's athleticism, but he has more hustle and a better motor and just as much defensive awareness. Larry is also very tough for his size, though obviously not as purely strong as LeBron. LeBron's defensive peak is higher, yes, but defense is about consistent effort and there's a lot about defense that does not get tracked by the box score. Both are amazing lead by example players who lift up their teammates as well with their tireless efforts. But neither are players who are typically taking the toughest defensive assignment and instead contribute with excellent help defense.

LeBron is still better, but it is a LOT closer than people are giving him credit for. They are both S+ tier players.

Not sure I agree with your overall point but DBPM is not a very good argument point

[SNPA]

Bird. More portable. Better shooter. Better passer. Better rebounder. Better off ball defender (in half court). Better mental game. Better leader. Tougher. Generally more skilled. People see athleticism more than skill. But basketball is a game of skill.

Dominating the game without the ball is harder than dominating with the ball.

Bird allows good teams to be themselves. James forces teammates into his style. Larry never reduces guys to standing in the corner waiting for a pass.

Plus, Larry played out of position to accommodate his teammates. James wouldn’t ever even consider adjusting his game, let alone playing out of position.

[Statlanta]

Larry Bird. He was a much better leader and had better intangibles. I think LeBrons production in this time period is more volatile than others in his career.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think there are points that can be made in Bird's favor here but there's not really any getting around that not only does LeBron have a sizeable athleticism advantage but Bird's body started breaking in around 84 and I think that he tended to sort of run out of gas as the playoffs got going while LeBron is likely a top 3 playoff performer of all time. So not only is LeBron I would say better in these regular seasons but I think its even more pronounced in these playoffs despite 2011 which was probably LeBron's weakest ps run.

[No-more-rings]

I think there are points that can be made in Bird's favor here but there's not really any getting around that not only does LeBron have a sizeable athleticism advantage but Bird's body started breaking in around 84 and I think that he tended to sort of run out of gas as the playoffs got going while LeBron is likely a top 3 playoff performer of all time. So not only is LeBron I would say better in these regular seasons but I think its even more pronounced in these playoffs despite 2011 which was probably LeBron's weakest ps run.

Bird's body was not breaking down in 84, what makes you say that?

[mojomarc]

I think there are points that can be made in Bird's favor here but there's not really any getting around that not only does LeBron have a sizeable athleticism advantage but Bird's body started breaking in around 84 and I think that he tended to sort of run out of gas as the playoffs got going while LeBron is likely a top 3 playoff performer of all time. So not only is LeBron I would say better in these regular seasons but I think its even more pronounced in these playoffs despite 2011 which was probably LeBron's weakest ps run.

Bird's body was not breaking down in 84, what makes you say that?

Yeah--that was the first of his three consecutive MVP years. I think you can make the argument about 1988, but not 1984.

[feyki]

09 and 13 Lebron were better than any of Bird's year. 2010 also may have been better. But 2011 was a two or three tier below than rest 9 years in the compare. It's Bird, slightly.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think there are points that can be made in Bird's favor here but there's not really any getting around that not only does LeBron have a sizeable athleticism advantage but Bird's body started breaking in around 84 and I think that he tended to sort of run out of gas as the playoffs got going while LeBron is likely a top 3 playoff performer of all time. So not only is LeBron I would say better in these regular seasons but I think its even more pronounced in these playoffs despite 2011 which was probably LeBron's weakest ps run.

Bird's body was not breaking down in 84, what makes you say that?

Yeah--that was the first of his three consecutive MVP years. I think you can make the argument about 1988, but not 1984.

Actually I should have said 85. That was the year he tried to repave his mother's driveway and also when he had the bar fight and after he'd already had other injuries. He wasn't nearly as injury free as LeBron has been and all of those injuries took their toll on him. Hand, back, feet. Here's just a bit of an article from 1993:

BH: But do you think you would’ve lasted longer if you hadn’t?

LB: Probably. But I couldn’t [not do all that running]. I had that thing in my body that told me to get up and go — that clock. When it’s time to run, you go run. That’s just the way I was. I remember my second year in the league, we were in the All-Star Game in New Jersey, and Artis Gilmore told me, “Man, you’re really a good player, Larry. You’re going to be great. But if you keep playing the way you’re playing, you’re not going to last long.” I said, “I can’t play any other way. That’s the way I play.”

BH: Did he mean how far you ran, or how hard you played?

LB: I think it was how hard I was playing. He never worked out. But I knew it. I knew I wasn’t going to last long. I knew I was breaking down. It was just the way it is. I had this desire to win every game and the only way I felt, in my mind, that I could do that was to be in the best condition. […]

My thoughts were always that that night was the most important game in the world. Everybody in the world was watching that one game. And I had to be the best player on the court and win that game that night. That was my mentality and it stuck with me all the way through my career. But, knowing that, I knew that I was going to pay for it in a hard way. That’s probably why, when I retired, after the press conference, I probably felt relief.

[Follow Ball Don’t Lie on social media: Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Tumblr]

Bird recalls how his teammate, fellow Hall of Famer Robert Parish, passed on basketball-specific workouts during the offseason in favor of then-radical approaches like yoga to remain flexible and strengthen his core. “The Chief,” the eighth overall pick in the 1976 NBA draft, stuck around to age 43, logging playoff minutes for the 1996-97 Chicago Bulls before hanging ’em up after 21 seasons; maybe he was onto something when it came to taking care of his body. (The relative merits of his, um, other preferred treatments remain very much a topic of debate, in both the NBA and the nation at large.)

Bird now thinks that his intense commitment to pushing his limits — “I had to run my 3 miles to warm up. I had to ride my bike 12½ miles. I had to sprint. I always felt that I had to do more, more, more” — might have helped put too much strain on his 6-foot-9 frame. His decision to spend a year working as a garbageman in French Lick, Ind., between dropping out of Indiana University in 1974 and enrolling at Indiana State University in 1975 might not have helped matters, either. (Ditto for eating “ten gallons of ice cream and seven weddin’ cakes” in 2 1/2 weeks on the shelf as a 34-year-old sidelined by a variety of issues.)

What certainly didn’t help, though, was Bird’s decision in the summer of 1985 — at 28 years old, in the heart of his prime, coming of a heartbreaking six-game loss in the NBA Finals to frenemy Magic Johnson and the arch-rival Los Angeles Lakers — not to hire a contractor. From Jackie MacMullan’s great book on the Magic-Bird era, “When the Game Was Ours”:

Bird wasn’t lounging on the beach in the summer of 1985. He was shoveling gravel for drainage to protect the new basketball court he had just installed. Although he had the financial means (times ten) to hire someone to do the work, the Celtics star prided himself on doing his own chores.

He knew it had been a mistake, however, the minute he tried to get out of bed the following morning. He had done something to his back and was alarmed by his lack of mobility. He walked around, tried to shake the stiffness, but the pain was unbearable. He lay down and tried to rest, but the sharp jolts shooting down his leg were persistent. Something was wrong — seriously wrong.

In subsequent years, Bird would learn that his back troubles were the result of a congenital condition. The canal in which the nerves led to his spinal cord was too narrow, which caused all that unbearable pain. It was truly remarkable, his surgeon told him after watching Bird play basketball, that he managed for as long as he did.

For the next three weeks, Bird did not play any basketball. Still, the back problems did not subside. Quinn Buckner called to see about working out with him in West Baden [the Indiana town where Bird was born]. He knew something was amiss when Larry declined.

“Quinn,” he said, “I’m in trouble.”

imo all of this stuff is why Bird's playoffs while often good tended not to be spectacular. He simply put his body through too much and I think had trouble managing an 82 game season with high mpg plus a playoff run. He played a lot like Manu who Pop would only play 30mpg because of it. Bird's body was definitely starting to break down by 85/86 and it just got worse from there.