Is Dame a top 10 player overall?

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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#21 » by jdzimme3 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:49 am

dygaction wrote:The reason I asked is because if everyone is healthy, I have him right at 11 behind Jokic, Embiid, LeBron, Harden, Giannis, Luka, KD, Kawhi, AD, and Curry. In front of PG13, Irving, Butler, CP3, and Simmons.


This
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#22 » by rate_ » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:06 am

Dame above Jimmy Butler, convince me.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#23 » by LukaTheGOAT » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:14 am

dygaction wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
dygaction wrote:Really? Paul George
Reg: 33.3 min 43.6 FG%, 38.4 3p%, 84.7 FT%, 6.4r, 3.4a, 2.6to, 20.1p
Post: 38.4 min 41.9 FG%, 35.6 3p%, 81.9 FT%, 7.1r, 3.8a, 3.1to, 20.1p
If you use per 100, or per min, EVERYTHING drops in playoffs except turnover. Maybe his last year dragged down the whole (89 games total) playoff stats .


Also here is Dame from 16-20 in the PS. I'll take my chances and pass

Read on Twitter
/photo/1


My major concern for Dame is his drop in playoffs as mentioned in the op, but I think PG13's graph would be very similar.


I just made a post about George's PIPM being historically good during a certain span, so I doubt it.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#24 » by Pelly24 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:03 pm

To me, the time for PG to be considered better than Dame or even as good ended a while ago. He's a significantly worse scorer (relies too much on his jumper, can't blow by good defenders) and he's shrunk in big moments a lot over the last couple of postseasons. Dame is flat-out a more dominant player.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#25 » by bondom34 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:13 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
I just made a post about George's PIPM being historically good during a certain span, so I doubt it.

Also FWIW, see the spoiler in my earlier post. Dame's dropoff has been generally bigger for box score metrics as well. I don't have access to PIPM/auPM.

But even using those years:

Image
Image

The PG playoff narrative is weird to me. He's been overall solid to good, but nobody remembers it. Dame's had memorable good moments but overall been worse, and its glossed over because of buzzer beaters. The argument for Lillard would tend to be regular season if anything.

And I don't know which of the two I'd take, but it's just weird.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#26 » by LukaTheGOAT » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:29 pm

bondom34 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
I just made a post about George's PIPM being historically good during a certain span, so I doubt it.

Also FWIW, see the spoiler in my earlier post. Dame's dropoff has been generally bigger for box score metrics as well. I don't have access to PIPM/auPM.

But even using those years:

Image
Image

The PG playoff narrative is weird to me. He's been overall solid to good, but nobody remembers it. Dame's had memorable good moments but overall been worse, and its glossed over because of buzzer beaters. The argument for Lillard would tend to be regular season if anything.

And I don't know which of the two I'd take, but it's just weird.

I was referring to dygaction.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#27 » by bondom34 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:30 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
I just made a post about George's PIPM being historically good during a certain span, so I doubt it.

Also FWIW, see the spoiler in my earlier post. Dame's dropoff has been generally bigger for box score metrics as well. I don't have access to PIPM/auPM.

But even using those years:

Image
Image

The PG playoff narrative is weird to me. He's been overall solid to good, but nobody remembers it. Dame's had memorable good moments but overall been worse, and its glossed over because of buzzer beaters. The argument for Lillard would tend to be regular season if anything.

And I don't know which of the two I'd take, but it's just weird.

I was referring to dygaction.

I know, was just noting it as well to your point.

Probably shouldn't have snipped the quote.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#28 » by Vladimir777 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:59 pm

He's right on the cusp. I'd probably put him over Luka and AD at this point, but that can change at anytime, and Luka will surely surpass him soon. I'd have my top ten as thus:

1.) LeBron
2.) Kevin Durant
3.) Giannis
4.) Nikola Jokic
5.) James Harden
6.) Steph Curry
7.) Kawhi Leonard
8.) Joel Embiid
9.) Luke Doncic (I know I said I'd put Luka under Dame above, but I changed my mind, LOL)
10.) Dame Lillard
11.) Anthony Davis (I value health and availability, so I think Dame is above him...realistically, I should probably move KD a few spaces back, due to this)
12.) Rudy Gobert
13.) Bradley Beal
14.) Jimmy Butler/PG13
15.) Chris Paul
16.) Kyrie Irving
17.) It starts getting hard to rank around here, but I'll throw some love to Zach Lavine, but this could be a ton of people
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#29 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:21 pm

Dame sensed the disrespect from this thread....
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#30 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:35 pm

I think he's in there just based on what he does in the regular season. Trouble with Dame, IMO, is that he still doesn't deal with traps well and doesn't pass well out of them. This hurts him in the playoffs when teams routinely trap him and he struggles to make the pass over the top. He also isn't like Curry in that he isn't cutting hard off-the-ball to get it back so he has to resort to difficult shot-making to keep his scoring up. I think this is a big reason why his efficiency dips so much in the playoffs - moreso than other scoring guards IIRC.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#31 » by dygaction » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:45 pm

Looks like more people are willing to put Dame as top 5 in the General board, particularly after his 50p game last night, but people here are more reluctant to put him as top 10 in Player Comparisons. The timing of such questions matters a lot.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#32 » by bondom34 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:15 pm

People are overreactionary.

Jimmy Butler's team has won a ton lately, he's less flashy and I'd say in the same general tier of guys. But most people seem to not really consider him. Lillard's a very weird case to me, he's fantastic but one of few stars in the league who's flaws generally seem to be glossed over. People remember stuff like last night, but don't remember the off nights, or remember the first round in 2019 but forget the Denver series, or the 2016 playoffs.

Aside, but this is an example of why I'd not trust the general forum for any substantiated opinions (not to downplay Lillard, but just reactionary stuff in general).

Second aside but holy moly Pelicans do you have some game management issues.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#33 » by rate_ » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:28 pm

bondom34 wrote:People are overreactionary.

Jimmy Butler's team has won a ton lately, he's less flashy and I'd say in the same general tier of guys. But most people seem to not really consider him. Lillard's a very weird case to me, he's fantastic but one of few stars in the league who's flaws generally seem to be glossed over. People remember stuff like last night, but don't remember the off nights, or remember the first round in 2019 but forget the Denver series, or the 2016 playoffs.

Aside, but this is an example of why I'd not trust the general forum for any substantiated opinions (not to downplay Lillard, but just reactionary stuff in general).

Second aside but holy moly Pelicans do you have some game management issues.


Not only that, but Jimmy just came off an impressive Finals run while going toe to toe with LeBron. Lillard tends to fold when he runs into the super elite teams in the playoffs
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#34 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:59 pm

I know the top 10 is very crowded, but it's hard to see the argument against him being top 10 with how the blazers have played without nurkic and CJ. Yeah, they have more depth this year when it comes to role players, but even so he's the main cog. His clutch performance isn't just based on reputation. The stats back that up and he rarely misses games. This isn't a "he doesn't live up to his raw talent" situation. When you take all that into account on top of his impressive production, I'm admittedly surprised by the push back here.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#35 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:18 pm

bondom34 wrote:People are overreactionary.

Jimmy Butler's team has won a ton lately, he's less flashy and I'd say in the same general tier of guys. But most people seem to not really consider him. Lillard's a very weird case to me, he's fantastic but one of few stars in the league who's flaws generally seem to be glossed over. People remember stuff like last night, but don't remember the off nights, or remember the first round in 2019 but forget the Denver series, or the 2016 playoffs.
.


He's largely been a one man team. No disrespect to CJ or Nurkic, but those guys are nothing special. CJ has one season total of even league average efficiency and he's been the 2nd option for years now. So yeah in the playoffs against good teams, good defenses, and good coaching staffs, sometimes they will make life difficult for him. This is true of basically every offensive star. I mean look at Harden for instance.

But he's just so good and I really don't understand the arguments for guys like AD or Luka sorta being defaulted in above him. Based on what exactly?
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#36 » by bondom34 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:37 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
He's largely been a one man team. No disrespect to CJ or Nurkic, but those guys are nothing special. CJ has one season total of even league average efficiency and he's been the 2nd option for years now. So yeah in the playoffs against good teams, good defenses, and good coaching staffs, sometimes they will make life difficult for him. This is true of basically every offensive star. I mean look at Harden for instance.

But he's just so good and I really don't understand the arguments for guys like AD or Luka sorta being defaulted in above him. Based on what exactly?

I'm more interested in the case against Davis. To the bolded, Davis has been one of the most impactful defenders in the league, including the postseason. He was stuck on an even worse franchise for years, which seems to be docking him. Doncic is more a personal preference but I'd say you're getting a more resilient playoff performer with stronger defense. Davis I don't really see much a case against over him, and Lillard's playoffs have been gone over, they're not good. If we're using playoff performances I'd again note that 2019 Denver series, where the guy who's nothing special was Portland's best player.

I don't really see a case for him over Lebron, Giannis, Harden, Kawhi, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Durant this year or Davis. I'd take Doncic too, which is just a tough group to crack. But even after that I'd have Butler, George, and Gobert in consideration (why isn't defense talked about this way if this is the case?).

I know he's hit some amazing and entertaining shots, but he's also got a history of some pretty poor playoff performances too, and they're glossed over while other guys don't get that benefit. I've seen people flat out say he's a better playoff performer than Steph, which isn't remotely true and just today someone say he could go down all time over Nash. Like what are we doing here?

But ultimately, I said it in my first post, he'd be just outside I think for me, though he's in a group with like 5 guys for 1 spot so. I just find the playoff stuff weird, and don't see why he's a clear cut above Jimmy Butler, George, Gobert, or Doncic at all. Like if Brandon Ingram hits a FT we're not doing this today and it's all a weird reactionary mess.

Edit: I'd also note, not last night but early season CJ was their best player before being injured. It was surprising at the time but he was. Lillard's really good. Think everyone knows that, and he's got a personality people gravitate toward, but looking into his overall case in the past and present and I don't see a shoe in. And I see some others who all feel at worst similar, and a few I'd take above. Think this is sort of like "is X a top 5 player" when most people generally agree on about a top 7. I don't think many would have him past say 12-15. Some have him 10. Some say he's better than Steve Nash.

Also:

Spoiler:
Image


There are levels to struggling in the playoffs. And by this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FILkJ_CJWvBh1ovbt-OgcgpHTi6gzj7pkg2w9AXS8yw/edit#gid=0

Plenty of the guys who supposedly decline are having better impact numbers in the postseason. Doesn't mean he's not great, just a tough group to crack.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#37 » by ShotCreator » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:41 pm

I don’t see an argument I’d like for it.

Terrible, actually Derozan level playoff player who has constantly been dominated on both ends, and has never played a season of good defense in his career.

This year he’s one of the worst defenders in the league.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#38 » by GSP » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:04 pm

Vladimir777 wrote:He's right on the cusp. I'd probably put him over Luka and AD at this point, but that can change at anytime, and Luka will surely surpass him soon. I'd have my top ten as thus:

1.) LeBron
2.) Kevin Durant
3.) Giannis
4.) Nikola Jokic
5.) James Harden
6.) Steph Curry
7.) Kawhi Leonard
8.) Joel Embiid
9.) Luke Doncic (I know I said I'd put Luka under Dame above, but I changed my mind, LOL)
10.) Dame Lillard
11.) Anthony Davis (I value health and availability, so I think Dame is above him...realistically, I should probably move KD a few spaces back, due to this)
12.) Rudy Gobert
13.) Bradley Beal
14.) Jimmy Butler/PG13
15.) Chris Paul
16.) Kyrie Irving
17.) It starts getting hard to rank around here, but I'll throw some love to Zach Lavine, but this could be a ton of people


I mostly like the list but in 2021 I think it's time we no longer pretend Playoff P is on the same tier as Jimmy
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#39 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:06 pm

Seeing a lot of Durant mentions. His on court production has been great and certainly impressive coming back from injury. He's only appeared in 19 of the nets' 40 games this season though, and will be out "at least another few weeks" as of yesterday. Not sure why this is being ignored. He's pretty clearly outside the top 10 to me. I don't consider these "in a vacuum" rankings.
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Re: Is Dame a top 10 player overall? 

Post#40 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:07 pm

Pelly24 wrote:To me, the time for PG to be considered better than Dame or even as good ended a while ago. He's a significantly worse scorer (relies too much on his jumper, can't blow by good defenders) and he's shrunk in big moments a lot over the last couple of postseasons. Dame is flat-out a more dominant player.


Saying a player relies too much on a jumper and can't blow by good defenders is an incredibly accurate way to describe Damain Lillard.

Damian Lillard is not overly dominant. Paul George being a bad playoff player is a meme. He had a bad post season last year, but Damian Lillard has had his stinkers also. George has shown up a lot in playoff games.




People have been saying this about Damian Lillard for 5-6 years now at this point in the season. "this guy HAS to be top ten!" and usually when the season ends, it doesn't seem all that clear anymore.

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