Better Rebounder? Rodman, or Chamberlain?

[ty 4191]

Rodman was "only" 6 foot 7 in bare feet, rail thin, and somehow (because of his genius and incredibly hard work) grabbed 24% of the total rebounds in his career. 12,000, total.

Wilt was 7 foot 1 in bare feet, averaged about 290 lbs, grabbed 21% of the rebounds in his career. 24,000 total.

About twice as many shots, possessions per game in Wilt's entire era vs. Rodman's, correct?

Thoughts, folks? You guys are the experts!!!

Thanks!

[70sFan]

I'd argue that Wilt's stats are more impressive due to bigger load, minutes and different roles.

[ty 4191]

Paging @coastalmarker99 and @70sfan.

[penbeast0]

Bill Russell's is actually a slightly stronger rebounder per minute than Wilt though the difference disappears when you factor in the higher pace the Celtics play at. I think both Wilt and Russell average roughly a 20 rebound rate once you adjust for era factors and the difference in counting team rebounds (TrueLAFan did a thread on this which is on the Stat board), which is pretty impressive compared to anyone else. But Rodman average a 23.4 rebound rate for his career which is just ridiculous, though he did stat chase rebounds at the expense of team play in the later half of his career. Wilt was stronger and could get higher but Rodman (and Russell) were masters at the quick jump which allowed them to get second tries and react faster.

I don't like him, but I have to respect him and say it's the Worm.

[70sFan]

For what it's worth, Rodman's advantage in TRB% disappears in playoffs.

[G35]

If I had to have a rebound and both Rodman and Chamberlain were on the court, on opposing teams and they were going after a rebound, I'm taking Chamberlain.....

[coastalmarker99]

Rodman was incredibly selfish when it came to his rebounding numbers and it cost his team series such as the 1995 Wcf as when he was constantly leaving Horry open at 20ft to go get another rebound in game 1 of that series.


Give me Detroit Rodman any day as he played the game the right way and was a great teammate and defender as well.



But I am taking Wilt by a mile when it comes to rebounding as others can have the stat-padding Spurs/Chicago Rodman.


Everyone called out Rodman back then for his stat-padding obsession with rebounding Scottie, Michael, Paxson, Phil, Avery, Elliot, David, Hill and Pop. Hell Red said he was one of 5 guys he wouldn't want on his team.

He accomplished a lot in terms of winning and would play the right way from time to time but his reluctance to listen to the game plan, random stuff he would do along with stat-padding wasn't worth it at all and completely screwed his team at times such as the spurs and he also almost did it with Chicago too.

[coastalmarker99]

Vs Russell Wilt held a 92-43-8 margin in rebounding "wins" in their 143 H2H games.

Chamberlain holds a 7-1 margin over Russell in H2H 40+ rebound games.

Wilt held a 23-4 margin in 35+ rebound games.

Chamberlain holds the all-time single-game rebounding record of 55, in a game in which he outrebounded Russell by a 55-19 margin.

Wilt outrebounded Russell in ALL eight of their playoff series, including margins of 25-21; 30-26; 31-25, and even 32-23.

Wilt holds the playoff single-game rebounding record of 41, in a game in which he outrebounded Russell, 41-29. (Oh and he also outrebounded in games of that same series, by margins of 32-15, and 36-21.)

Concerning the Kareem-Wilt H2H's...the two met 28 times, 27 of which came after Chamberlain's knee surgery (and from ages 34 thru 36.)

Vs Kareem In their first 11 meetings, Wilt averaged 22.8 ppg and 17.6 rebounds, while Kareem averaged 26.0 ppg and 15.6 rebounds.

In the playoffs In 1972 Wilt had 19.3 rebounds per game, Kareem had 17.5 rebounds per game; in 1971 Wilt had 18.8 per game, Kareem had 17.2 per game. Wilt outrebounded Kareem in their 28 H2H's, and this was an old past his prime Chamberlain.

Also in his LAST ten straight games against Kareem, Chamberlain held a prime Kareem to .434 shooting (which included .414 in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.)

in a total of 10 playoff series against both of them, Wilt was never outrebounded by Russell or Kareem and indeed in Wilt's 29 playoff series, he was never outrebounded by any other center.


Incidentally, Wilt played in 29 post-season series in his career. I could only find two in which his opposing center shot over 50% against him. One was Zelmo Beaty shooting .52.1 against him in the '64 playoffs (in a series in which Wilt outscored him, per game, 38.6 to 14.3 ppg, and outshot him, .55.9 to .52.1.)



And in the other, in the '72 Finals, Jerry Lucas, who shot an even .50.0 against Wilt (Chamberlain averaged 19 ppg on .60.0 shooting against him.) Furthermore, Lucas started out that series going 11 for his first 12. He shot 35-80 in the rest (.43.8), which in itself was impressive, given the fact that Lucas was firing away from as far as 25 ft.


So yeah give me Wilt over Rodman any day of the week on the boards and twice on Sundays.

[mstat13shuh]

Coastalmarker, I was just wondering if you had lost my email?
I've tried responding a few times in the last 3 weeks & haven't yet received a reply.

Thanks again, hope & pray all is well.

[dygaction]

According to this, Chamberlain's 27.2rpg season was not in the top 10 after pace adjustment. Rodman's rebounding was as dominant as Jordan's scoring.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2evk1i/nba_major_statistical_leaders_adjusted_for_pace/
Rank Year Player Rebounds per 100 Possessions
1 1995 Dennis Rodman 26.6
2 2001 Danny Fortson 24.6
3 2013 Reggie Evans 24.4
4 1994 Dennis Rodman 24.4
5 1992 Dennis Rodman 24.3
6 1997 Dennis Rodman 24.2
7 1993 Dennis Rodman 24.2
8 1996 Dennis Rodman 24.0
9 1996 Jayson Williams 22.8
10 1998 Dennis Rodman 22.7


Rank Year Player Points per 100 Possessions
1 1987 Michael Jordan 46.4
2 2006 Kobe Bryant 45.6
3 1988 Michael Jordan 43.6
4 1986 Michael Jordan 43.5
5 1993 Michael Jordan 43
6 1991 Michael Jordan 42.7
7 1990 Michael Jordan 42.7
8 1996 Michael Jordan 42.5
9 1982 George Gervin 42.4
10 1985 Bernard King 42.3

[Cavsfansince84]

Rank Year Player Points per 100 Possessions
1 1987 Michael Jordan 46.4
2 2006 Kobe Bryant 45.6
3 1988 Michael Jordan 43.6
4 1986 Michael Jordan 43.5
5 1993 Michael Jordan 43
6 1991 Michael Jordan 42.7
7 1990 Michael Jordan 42.7
8 1996 Michael Jordan 42.5
9 1982 George Gervin 42.4
10 1985 Bernard King 42.3

That pts per 100 list is dated. Harden has two seasons which would place including the #1 overall and Westbrook also has a season that would place highly as does Giannis.

[dygaction]

Rank Year Player Points per 100 Possessions
1 1987 Michael Jordan 46.4
2 2006 Kobe Bryant 45.6
3 1988 Michael Jordan 43.6
4 1986 Michael Jordan 43.5
5 1993 Michael Jordan 43
6 1991 Michael Jordan 42.7
7 1990 Michael Jordan 42.7
8 1996 Michael Jordan 42.5
9 1982 George Gervin 42.4
10 1985 Bernard King 42.3

That's pts per 100 list is dated. Harden has two seasons which would place including the #1 overall and Westbrook also has a season that would place highly as does Giannis.

I see. The list was from 6 years ago.

[No-more-rings]

I’d say Chamberlain. Rodman’s rebounding goes from goat level to just super elite in the playoffs for some reason.

[HeartBreakKid]

Rodman has the best rebounding stats but I think Russell/Chamberlain grabbed rebounds in what I would say are less gimmicky ways. We know some of Rodman's best rebounding seasons he got a couple of rebounds that weren't necessarily for the benefit of his team.

As others have noticed when playing meaningful ball his rebounds do drop off from being clearly better to being around the same.

So I would say Chamberlain is probably better, though it depends on the season for him as well.

[kendogg]

Rodman always put himself into position for a rebound, sometimes at the expense of his help defense. While Wilt had the responsibility of being the primary rim protector for his teams and defending the ball often puts you out of position for the rebound. And Rodman had zero offensive responsibilities outside of rebounding, and a large percentage of his rebounds were offensive. Rodman is a freak athlete with his hops and arm length and is probably the only forward in history who had a prayer of matching peak Wilt's vertical reach. His standing vertical was better than Jordan and very quick with his second leap as well. Rodman was also strong enough to rip boards from most guys. He is probably better at chasing long rebounds than anyone, I'll give him that. And probably better at worming his way into getting offensive rebounds than anyone as well.

But Wilt was the king of ripping boards off the rim before they had a chance to bounce away. He had the reach throughout his career even late, and the strength to overpower anyone fighting for the board.

I don't think its really a fair comparison to straight up compare total rebound rate, given that all Rodman did on offense is rebound. Comparing their defensive rebound rate would be more apt, but that is sadly not available for Wilt's era. Even then, Wilt's rebounding stacks up favorably in the playoffs where rebounds are hardest to get.

Rodman is a high impact player and I'm not trying to suggest he's merely a stat stuffer, but there are certainly real gripes with his buy-in to team defense at times. But in regards to rebounding, I think we don't really have the evidence to definitively say because of lack of stats kept in Wilt's era. So if I had to give a short answer, I would just say that I think Wilt and Rodman are both S tier rebounders, and arguably the best rebounder for their position in history. The fact that Rodman outrebounded centers as a forward is extremely impressive, but he was mainly a rebounding specialist through most of his career and guys like Wilt or even Chuck (for someone in Rodman's era and position) brought a lot more to the table than just rebounding.

[JN61]

I take Wilt. Rebounding is not just securing the board but starting the break or scoring it after.

[Laimbeer]

Curious where the OP got his stats. Anyway, a few thoughts -

Rodman spent a good amount of his career as a more perimeter oriented defender and wasn't in position to grab huge numbers. BR doesn't include Wilt's TRB% but for a few seasons, but I suspect the gap for prime is even larger in Rodman's favor.

Three of Rodman's monster years were title seasons with the Bulls, so the "rebounding at the expense of playing more effective team basketball" is probably overblown.

How should we consider a player's other responsibilities? Wilt clearly had more, which dented his rebounding. But if a player like LeBron doesn't exert on defense for much of the game because of offensive responsibilities do we conclude it makes him a lesser defender? I don't have the absolute answer, just raising the point.

[NRSV]

Really terrible post. I’m sorry.

[kuclas]

Look. Wilt was on another level than any other player in his era. But basketball titles are not one man titles. It takes good teammates to win. MJ couldn’t win without Pippen (who was a top 10-15 nba player for their title runs. And had some solid teammates.

Who did wilt have early in his career?

So people like to downplay his “stats”. Guess what? When basketball has to change the rules because of Wilt. That’s saying something.

Now to the point. Wilt was amazing rebounder. We all know that. Plus his scoring. Rebounds and scores.

Rodman. All he needed to do is rebound and play defense. So you can go all out if you don’t need to focus on offense. For example. Look at age 33 Charles Barkley. Clearly on the downside of his career.

His first year in Houston. He averaged 13.5 rebounds while scoring less than he ever had in the previous 10 years. It’s because Barkley focused more on rebounds. (He still managed to average 19 points). So in my opinion. Rodman wasn’t even the best rebounder per height level. Barkley was.

Rodman was great at what he did. No doubt about it. But chamberlain offense plus defense/rebounds. Wilt wins this argument

[HeartBreakKid]

Curious where the OP got his stats. Anyway, a few thoughts -

Rodman spent a good amount of his career as a more perimeter oriented defender and wasn't in position to grab huge numbers. BR doesn't include Wilt's TRB% but for a few seasons, but I suspect the gap for prime is even larger in Rodman's favor.

Three of Rodman's monster years were title seasons with the Bulls, so the "rebounding at the expense of playing more effective team basketball" is probably overblown.

How should we consider a player's other responsibilities? Wilt clearly had more, which dented his rebounding. But if a player like LeBron doesn't exert on defense for much of the game because of offensive responsibilities do we conclude it makes him a lesser defender? I don't have the absolute answer, just raising the point.

well I mean everyone knows Rodman was a good player and it's not like the Bulls had never won titles before Rodman.