Ambrose wrote:You keep saying this but it's not true. You make far too many assumptions that aren't at all agreeable. Does LeBron deserve a pass for 2014? Hell yes. His team SUCKED. The 2014 Finals is a textbook example of why your methodlogy is flawed. The Spurs, on paper, aren't the most talented team ever but in reality were absolutely dominant. The 2014 Heat, on paper, looked talented but absolutely weren't. If you don't understand that you're further behind the curve than I thought.
On the contrary, the 2014 is a textbook example why my methodology is correct. You argue that the Spurs were the better team despite being less talented, so why Lebron couldnt take his talented team to beat the Spurs? In fact, MJ faced a similar uphill battle against the Suns in 1993 like Lebron's Heat in 2014 against the Spurs. Unlike Lebron, MJ went berserk averaging 41ppg on 50% FG playing 45mpg, almost single-handedly defeated the Suns on his way to 3-peat. If Lebron was better than MJ, he would've duplicated what MJ did in 1993 and found a way to defeat the Spurs, and instead the Heat set a new record for point margin in loss.
A lot of you underestimated the challenges and difficulties for 3-peat, a teams already on 2-peat tend to suffer all kinds of issues such as fatigue, injuries and lack of motivation. MJ was able to overcome all the adversities and took his team to 3-peat, while Lebron lost in a humiliating way, this is why Lebron is not even close to MJ's level. Its too easy to make excuses that the opponents are invincible, instead MJ just defeated everyone in the finals to make them look beatable.
tmorgan wrote:Can you really not read your own posts to understand your ridiculous dogma? You have reached legendary status.
Anything Jordan struggled with doesn’t matter because he won (which he didn’t, numerous times, but 6/6 on RINGZ in the finals, bro!), but since LeBron lost a bunch of finals, these are real flaws.
Look around. Is anyone taking you seriously at this point? I’m starting to look like an idiot for responding. I gotta let this go. Buhbye.
MJ's struggles were early years that his team was not good enough, and yet he always managed to exceed expectation taking these Bulls teams to better finishes than they were projected. Lebron's problem aint that he lost in the finals, we can easily give him a pass in 2007, 2018, etc. However, he lost half of the finals even when he was favorite to win according to pre-season odds which tell us the talent level of each team's rosters.
This is not like Duncan who lost merely once or Shaq/Kobe who lost only twice, Lebron lost 6 times. There aint another MVP winner player who lost more finals series than him, he lost more than he won. Perhaps you are the one who should snap out of your dogma and start to question why Lebron always lost in the finals, whether or not his teams were favorites or underdogs.
I've seen a lot of people taking me seriously in this thread, and there are also supporters who agree with me that MJ > Lebron. Just because RealGM analysts voted Lebron as #1 doesnt mean it is consensus, this is a big forum and a lot of people have varying opinions. It seems that you are melting down 'cause you lost this argument, personal attacks wont get you anywhere though bro.
Zeitgeister wrote:You do realize that things change throughout the course of an 82 game season where preseason odds don't mean that much. For example saying that LeBron "met expectations" in 2016 is laughable when he should have far exceeded them after beating a 73 win team, not to mention that the "meet/failed/above" fails to capture the nuance, it's too simple. Then in 2015 he "failed expectations" because he wasn't the NBA champion even though both Kyrie and Love were injured and if they weren't he probably would have won.
Also, in LeBron's early years where in 2007, LeBron was in the finals he was "above expectations" while MJ losing in the first round is also considered "above expectations", this whole line of argumentation is very flimsy.
Yeah a lot of things can happen, injuries and mid-season trades for instance, but these do not apply to 2016 season(I already took the Lakers trade into context for 2008 season hence why it was not counted as a championship window year for Lebron). The Cavs were pre-season favorites to win the ring, and the Warriors 73 wins record was misleading since they did not only struggle against the 57 wins Cavs in the finals, but also against the 55 wins Thunder in WCF. They were never dominant in the playoffs, and hence nowhere near as good as their record suggested.
Similarly the Spurs won 67 wins and didnt even make it to WCF, they were also nowhere near as good as their record suggested. The Cavs were the best team going into playoffs, they were supposed to win that year. The East was terrible in 2016 anyway so they basically had byes until the finals, the Cavs beating the Warriors in 7 was meeting the expectation, they were supposed to win. A better question is, why did Cavs underachieve and only won 57 games given the most talented rosters in the league?
Lebron in 2015 deserves a pass due to injuries happened to the other 2 all-star players so I wont argue this one here, although MJ would've won that ring without Irving and Love anyway like he did against all odds in 1993. Lebron in 2007 did exceed expectation because his team wasnt good enough to make the finals, similarly MJ's 3 straight first round exits years also exceeded expectation since they were projected to be lottery teams. Theres a clear definition of what qualifies a player that takes his team to go above expectation, so I dont think we have any confusion here.