Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs?

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Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#1 » by JustJoe » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:17 pm

Historically how do you think Dryamond measure up to the ATG great bigs defensively like Russell, WIlt, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutobmo, Mourning, Wallace, Mutombo, Duncan, Garnett and any other name i'm missing. Do you considered him to be in their tier,or a notch below?
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:25 pm

I view him as clearly top 20 defender ever, but he lacks longevity and peak his peak isn't good enough to be ranked inside top 20 in my opinion. I have him below all the players you mentioned in the OP.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#3 » by rand » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:33 pm

JustJoe wrote:Historically how do you think Dryamond measure up to the ATG great bigs defensively like Russell, WIlt, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutobmo, Mourning, Wallace, Mutombo, Duncan, Garnett and any other name i'm missing. Do you considered him to be in their tier,or a notch below?

Draymond is probably not better defensively than any of those players and surely not as good as some, but OTOH there are very few other players who can equal Draymond defensively.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#4 » by feyki » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:38 pm

Tier 1 - Bill Russell - GOATlvl - +4,5/5

Tier 2 - Ben Wallace +4/4,5

Tier 3 - D-Rob,Hakeem,Thurmond +3,5/4

Tier 4 - Duncan,Howard,Wilt,Walton - ATGlvl +3/3,5

Tier 5 - Ewing,Garnett,Kareem,Alonzo,Mutombo +2,5/3

Tier 6 - This is dpoy level and where Dray belongs.

He's top 25, to me. Arguably, top 20. But don't think could put him in the top 15.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:15 pm

Rim protectors have a strong defensive advantage in that they help defense for everyone on the floor. Compare him to players who weren't primarily rim protectors and he comes out very well.

Garnett, Draymond, Bobby Jones, Dennis Rodman, he's definitely in the mix for best defensive PF peak if you count Duncan as a center. Not as consistent as Garnett or Jones but OP asked peak.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#6 » by countryboy667 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 pm

feyki wrote:Tier 1 - Bill Russell - GOATlvl - +4,5/5

Tier 2 - Ben Wallace +4/4,5

Tier 3 - D-Rob,Hakeem,Thurmond +3,5/4

Tier 4 - Duncan,Howard,Wilt,Walton - ATGlvl +3/3,5

Tier 5 - Ewing,Garnett,Kareem,Alonzo,Mutombo +2,5/3

Tier 6 - This is dpoy level and where Dray belongs.

He's top 25, to me. Arguably, top 20. But don't think could put him in the top 15.


Wilt, Nate behind Ben Wallace? LO effing L...
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#7 » by eminence » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:24 pm

I'd have my prime tiers roughly like this:

Tier 1 - Bill Russell

Tier 2 - Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan

Tier 3 - George Mikan, Bill Walton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Draymond Green

Tier 4 - Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert

Tier 5 - Wes Unseld, Bobby Jones, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Metta World Peace, Tyson Chandler, Andrei Kirilenko, LeBron James, Tony Allen, Marc Gasol, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis Antetokounmpo (almost certainly missing a couple guys from this tier, but you get the point)

Edit: Actually, thought about it some more, and I think he'd be towards the middle of that tier. I'll go with 7th overall.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:25 pm

countryboy667 wrote:
Wilt, Nate ...


Who do you consider the better defender of just these two?
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#9 » by feyki » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:25 pm

countryboy667 wrote:
feyki wrote:Tier 1 - Bill Russell - GOATlvl - +4,5/5

Tier 2 - Ben Wallace +4/4,5

Tier 3 - D-Rob,Hakeem,Thurmond +3,5/4

Tier 4 - Duncan,Howard,Wilt,Walton - ATGlvl +3/3,5

Tier 5 - Ewing,Garnett,Kareem,Alonzo,Mutombo +2,5/3

Tier 6 - This is dpoy level and where Dray belongs.

He's top 25, to me. Arguably, top 20. But don't think could put him in the top 15.


Wilt, Nate behind Ben Wallace? LO effing L...


He was the closest thing to Bill Russell.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#10 » by Narigo » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:33 pm

Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF:
PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

BE: Robert Horry
BE:
BE:
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#11 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:51 pm

I can't put him in with modern guys like KG, Duncan, DRob, Hakeem or Ewing because of size. Draymond might make the best rotations of any guy ever but he is still only 6'6" and cannot protect the paint or rebound like those other dudes can. I think in terms of skill, he might be up there with guys like Russell and KG.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#12 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:58 pm

I think he's every bit as good as Kevin Garnett. I mean if we are citing +/- stats to make KG's case and we absolutely always do, the fact that Draymond has arguably the best numbers ever in a much more offensive era suggests he takes no backseat. And both are far more similar to each other than they are to traditional centers.

So wherever you slot KG in terms of best peak years, Draymond belongs. Obviously KG kills him on longevity.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:38 pm

Narigo wrote:

That's fantastic video!
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#14 » by Max123 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:44 pm

70sFan wrote:
Narigo wrote:

That's fantastic video!

Have to say that I agree, quite rarely do you see reasonable analysis of historical players on youtube in my opinion. Althought I may just not be following the right channels.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#15 » by drza » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:20 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I think he's every bit as good as Kevin Garnett. I mean if we are citing +/- stats to make KG's case and we absolutely always do, the fact that Draymond has arguably the best numbers ever in a much more offensive era suggests he takes no backseat. And both are far more similar to each other than they are to traditional centers.

So wherever you slot KG in terms of best peak years, Draymond belongs. Obviously KG kills him on longevity.


I personally think the notion of "Rim protection is THE most important aspect of defense" is outdated, if it was ever true. Russell wasn't the GOAT defender just because of how he protected the rim...I'm not sure how much he differentiates himself from players like Wilt or Nate in pure rim protection. But instead, it was (in Russell's words) his horizontal defense that made him the ultimate defensive weapon in NBA history. Russell didn't just discourage shots at the rim, he also blew up opposing plays and lowered their percentages of success anywhere within the key-extended.

Russell had the requisite combo of size and quickness, both necessary elements of the dominant defender. This gave him the ability to discourage shots from players of all heights and also be mobile enough to either help or switch as the situation calls for. Intelligence and communication are vital as well, to coordinate the unit and identify exactly where the weak spot in the opposing unit is. Russell was a 4D chess master as far as that was concerned. And, of course, he finished defensive possessions with rebounds as well as anyone in history, and that's another very important element of the dominant defender.

Bringing it to Draymond, I think he's elite at most of the elements that I laid out above. He may be only 6-7ish, but he's got long enough arms and a strong enough base to play strong post defense when needed and do some rim protection. But he's absolutely top-tier as far as quickness, defensive IQ, edge, communication and switching, even when being compared to the other GOATs. The argument can be made that these elements have become even more important in the modern-day game when compared to post defense and pure rim protection. With that said, I do believe that rebounding is as important now as it ever was, and that's another area where Dray comes up short of the other defensive GOATs.

Of course, one area of strength that Dray has compared to the GOAT centers is that he's able to have his monster defensive impact from the PF position. Which is extremely portable and scaleable on the defensive end, because that means he could be placed next to a defensive-minded center and completely break opposing offenses. I've introduced and spoken in the past about the notion of scarcity...there are just fewer power forwards that could be expected to have a defensive impact on that mega-elite tier than there are centers, which you could argue works to Dray's advantage.

For me, I can't put him on KG's level as a defender because the few areas where Dray could come up short of the ideal defender...height/length/rebounding in particular...KG still has at a 99 level. And KG has those strengths, without giving up anything in the other areas where Draymond is elite...in those areas, they're both 99s.

As far as pretty much everyone else, I could see an era-based argument of Draymond vs some of the other GOAT defender centers, based on his strengths being more pertinent for today's games than their better rim protection. And, of course, I could then see the opposite argument being made for the past, that Dray wouldn't have been optimized in eras with less spacing the way that more traditional rim protectors were.

I've got Dray in the mix as one of the best defenders of all-time. I can't put him on the level with Russell overall, or even with Garnett because KG shares pretty much all his strengths without having any of his relative weaknesses. But if you go down a tier, and/or want to make an era argument for Dray against more traditional rim protecting centers even near that top tier, I think those could be interesting debates.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#16 » by Leslie Forman » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:41 pm

drza wrote:I personally think the notion of "Rim protection is THE most important aspect of defense" is outdated, if it was ever true.

You'd think it would've been thrown out the window in the '90s when the Bulls defense was shutting everyone down built around some wings, a non shot-blocking PF, and random trash found at the local Y manning the center spot, but no.

Dray might not have the size to be a paint patrolling big, but who cares. His versatility in legitimately guarding 1-4 at a high level and even 5 in terms of straight up man-to-man D is more valuable and portable. I find that way more valuable than your traditional Gobert/Wallace/Dikembe/etc. shotblocking big archetype. His IQ and leadership on that end is incredibly valuable too, you basically have a defensive coordinator out there which you can't say for most of these shotblocker types.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#17 » by penbeast0 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:15 pm

The question in the OP wasn't how valuable a skillset is in today's era of 3 point spamming; the question was how did he stack up historically in a league where at least 2/3 of its seasons were built around attacking the rim, generally with a post oriented offense.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#18 » by yoyoboy » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:48 am

Texas Chuck wrote:I think he's every bit as good as Kevin Garnett. I mean if we are citing +/- stats to make KG's case and we absolutely always do, the fact that Draymond has arguably the best numbers ever in a much more offensive era suggests he takes no backseat. And both are far more similar to each other than they are to traditional centers.

So wherever you slot KG in terms of best peak years, Draymond belongs. Obviously KG kills him on longevity.

Yeah I'm also confused by this. What exactly would be KG's argument to be a tier or two ahead of Draymond if we're talking peaks?
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#19 » by ShotCreator » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:04 am

eminence wrote:I'd have my prime tiers roughly like this:

Tier 1 - Bill Russell

Tier 2 - Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan

Tier 3 - George Mikan, Bill Walton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Draymond Green

Tier 4 - Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert

Tier 5 - Wes Unseld, Bobby Jones, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Metta World Peace, Tyson Chandler, Andrei Kirilenko, LeBron James, Tony Allen, Marc Gasol, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis Antetokounmpo (almost certainly missing a couple guys from this tier, but you get the point)

Edit: Actually, thought about it some more, and I think he'd be towards the middle of that tier. I'll go with 7th overall.

God damn. Kareem had to be unthinkable in his prime.
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Re: Peak Draymond vs The ATG Defensive Bigs? 

Post#20 » by eminence » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:07 am

ShotCreator wrote:
eminence wrote:I'd have my prime tiers roughly like this:

Tier 1 - Bill Russell

Tier 2 - Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan

Tier 3 - George Mikan, Bill Walton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Draymond Green

Tier 4 - Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert

Tier 5 - Wes Unseld, Bobby Jones, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Metta World Peace, Tyson Chandler, Andrei Kirilenko, LeBron James, Tony Allen, Marc Gasol, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis Antetokounmpo (almost certainly missing a couple guys from this tier, but you get the point)

Edit: Actually, thought about it some more, and I think he'd be towards the middle of that tier. I'll go with 7th overall.

God damn. Kareem had to be unthinkable in his prime.


I'm probably a bit lower than most on Kareem's offense (though I came up a bit after Elgee's peak series, thought that was a really good look at him). But yeah, overall still pretty dang high on Kareem, certainly a top 10 prime guy.
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