RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 (Kevin Johnson)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 (Kevin Johnson) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:10 am

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. Isiah Thomas
44. Russell Westbrook
45. Willis Reed
46. Chauncey Billups
47. Paul Pierce
48. Gary Payton
49. Pau Gasol
50. Ray Allen
51. Dwight Howard
52. Kevin McHale
53. Manu Ginobili
54. Dave Cowens
55. Adrian Dantley
56. Sam Jones
57. Bob Lanier
58. Dikembe Mutombo
59. Elvin Hayes
60. Paul Arizin
61. Anthony Davis
62. Robert Parish
63. Bob Cousy
64. Alonzo Mourning
65. Nate Thurmond
66. Allen Iverson
67. Tracy McGrady
68. Alex English
69. Vince Carter
70. Wes Unseld
71. Tony Parker
72. Rasheed Wallace
73. Dominique Wilkins
74. Giannis Antetokounmpo
75. ???

Target stop-time around 9pm EST on Friday.

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
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"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:32 am

1st vote: Kevin Johnson
With the scandals in his personal life, it's almost as though the basketball community has turned their heads on this guy [certainly it seems like the only justification for him NOT being in the HOF yet, imo]. His longevity isn't great, but he was a near-monster in his prime.
Only a 3-time All-Star, but right there is a perfect example of how fallable accolades can be [and fwiw he was FIVE times All-NBA, which is a bigger honour].
But take '89 as an example: KJ averaged 20.4 ppg @ +6.0% rTS and 12.2 apg anchoring the 2nd-rated offense [and 55-win team overall].......but did NOT make the All-Star team??? Even after Magic had to bow out of his All-Star appearance due to injury, KJ was NOT selected to replace him [instead they gave an ancient Kareem a legacy nod]. Meanwhile there were also guys like Dale Ellis and Kevin frickin' Duckworth on the West's AS team. :noway:

He was at least recognized All-NBA 2nd Team that year.

KJ would be at or near the helm of several elite or near-elite offenses: in the 7-year span of '89-'95 the WORST offense seen in Phoenix was a +3.9 rORTG; the best was a +6.2 [average was +5.11 rORTG.......again, that's over SEVEN years]. Even BEFORE Barkley arrived, the FOUR-year average from '89-'92 was +4.73. Think on that.
I'll try to provide some WOWY data for him later.


2nd vote: Chris Bosh
Things I really like when looking at his career....
1) Fairly nice peak and average prime year: he was basically like clockwork good for ~23/10 year after year in Toronto. Much of that was for mediocre to poor teams, though he also did it for a couple of weak supporting casts that he semi-carried to positive SRS's, 41-47 wins, and playoff berths.
2) Adaptability: he altered his game in Miami to integrate with Lebron on a contender [semi-dynasty]. He developed a 3pt shot, and didn't complain [to my knowledge] about his reduced role. In the meantime he also became [imo] one of the league's best pnr defenders.
3) Consistent high level/longevity of quality. If you just look at total games played [893] or seasons played [13], his longevity doesn't look that great. But a couple things to consider: a) he packed nearly 32k minutes into the 893 games [CAREER avg of 35.8 mpg]; and b) he was good basically his ENTIRE career--->he was already at least an average player as a rookie, improved to clearly above avg in his 2nd year, was a clear All-Star talent by his 3rd season.....and basically never again declined below at least borderline All-Star for the rest of his career [peaking near All-NBA 2nd Team level].

It's a decent amount of career value, imo.


3rd vote: Shawn Marion
I'll try to post a bit more on him later (though I did go on about him in the last thread [around post #35 or thereabouts]). Solid and underrated career. Could see potentially swapping him and Bosh, actually.


Among those who have received votes of any kind, I'm tentatively going with this order:
KJ > Bosh > Marion > Nance > Grant > Wallace > McAdoo > Jones > Rodman > Greer > Hornacek > D.Johnson > Walton/Jokic (I need to think more about where I'd have Jokic in relation to Walton, though presently leaning Walton > Jokic; both are outside my top 100 as of 2020, though, so unlikely to be ahead of many players who may come up in Condorcet for me).
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:51 am

Since I actually want to look at my list rather than cutting and pasting the old one like I've done the last few, I want to take a moment and compare this list (3/4 done) to our last list in 2017. A few names have moved up but through 68, it looks like everyone is on the new list. Then we ran the following names that have not been voted in yet:

69 Kevin Johnson
70 Bob McAdoo
71 Sidney Moncrief
(72 Paul Arizin)
73 Grant Hill
74 Bobby Jones
75 Chris Bosh
(76 Tony Parker)
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#4 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:58 am

75. Hal Greer
-7x all nba 2nd team. 9-10 year prime where he is between 20-23ppg on very good efficiency(ts+ between 103 and 106) while being a + defender. Many high scoring playoff runs including the 67 title Sixers that he led in playoff scoring(27.7ppg).

76. Bobby Jones
-Obviously all time level defender at his position(10x all defense 1st team), supplied decent scoring on very high efficiency(career ts+ of 115 is great)
-top 4 in mvp voting twice in the aba, large part of two very good Nuggets teams before becoming a top 2/3 player on two finals teams and 3/4 best player on an all time level championship team for the Sixers.
-Ranks 53rd in career vorp and 34th in career bpm

77. Bob McAdoo
-Has a great 5 yr run from 74-78 where he finishes top 2 in mvp voting 3 straight years and is putting up 30+ppg on ts+ of 108-118.
-Comes back as a role player for the Lakers in the 80's and helps them win a couple of titles
-One of the best combos of scoring and rebounding in league history

78. Lucas
79. DeBusschere
80. Johnston
81. Cunningham
82. Wallace
83. Worthy
84. KJ
85. Cheeks
86. Rodman
87. Lillard
88. Hill
89. Mullin
90. Marion
91. DJohnson
92. Nance
93. Porter
94. Issel
95. Butler
96. Moncrief
97. Jokic
98. Dumars
99. Griffin
100. M Johnson

others considering: Richmond, Webber, Price, King, Melo
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#5 » by Hal14 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:04 am

Hal14 wrote:1. Dennis Rodman
2. Dennis Johnson
3. Tiny Archibald

Rodman was:

-Top 5 rebounder of all time - arguably the best
-Top 5 defender of all time - arguably the best
-In terms of running through a wall to make a play, going all out to help his team, hustle, diving on the floor for loose balls - he's also top 5 of all time in that, arguably the best
-Won 5 titles. Was a top 3 player on his team for 3 of those titles (96-98) and probably a top 3 player on the other 2 (89, 90)..many people even think he should have won finals MVP in 96.

To me, that's good enough to be a top 70 player of all time. Sure, you can say that he couldn't score and that he was a head case who at times caused team turmoil - but that's why he's here and not 20 spots higher.

Love him or hate him, you've got to respect that he was one of the greatest players of all time:



Johnson was Finals MVP in 79. The dude was an animal. Flying around the court like a bat outta hell, some of the best defense a guard has ever played. Going all out, hustling, taking it strong to the rim.

Next, let's look at 84. 83-84 was his first year on the Celtics. The year before that in 83 the Celtics got swept in the 2nd round by the Bucks. Yes, KC Jones taking over as coach was a factor as well, but the Celtics adding Johnson was a HUGE reason why they went from being swept in the 2nd round in 83 to NBA world champs beating the Lakers in the finals the very next year in 84 (with Magic and Kareem in their prime).

In both 84 and 86 Johnson was one of the team's top 4 players, came through in the clutch time and time again and Bird is on record saying that Johnson was the best teammate he ever played with (meaning Bird thinks Johnson was better than Parish and Mchale).

Johnson was one of the best defensive guards of all time, easily one of the top 10 defensive guards ever. The guy had very good size and strength at the PG position which made him a tough matchup, early in his career had great explosiveness and athleticism, he could score inside, drive to the basket and as his career went on developed a deadly outside shot - especially in the mid range area, not as much from 3 because at the time 3's weren't being taken very much across the league (early in his career there was no 3 point line), plus he could rebound well, unselfishly looked to get the ball to his teammates but would make you pay dearly if you ignored him too much on offense, plus of course his outstanding defense.

Solid longevity, played 14 seasons (13 of which he played 27+ mins a game and all of them he played in 70+ games) which was solid for that era, especially considering he played in a ton (180 to be exact) of playoff games.

How about durability? The guy always played, he was always in the lineup. Out of his 14 seasons:
-he played 72+ games in 14/14 (100%)
-he played in 77+ games in 12/14 seasons (86%)
-he played in 80+ games in 7/14 seasons (50%)

How about Rasheed's durability?
-he played 72+ games in 14/16 (63%)
-he played in 77+ games in 8/16 seasons (50%)
-he played in 80+ games in 10/16 seasons (13%)
1/11/24 The birth of a new Hal. From now on being less combative, avoiding confrontation - like Switzerland :)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#6 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:18 am

Is there solid evidence to Chris Bosh having a good peak beyond having a nice boxsore on a bad team? We already know he is not actually a real 10 RPG caliber player and he likely just got it because he's playing with Bargani and other guys who can't grab boards.

Seems like he became a much more useful player when he scaled down his scoring and upped his defense.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#7 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:26 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Is there solid evidence to Chris Bosh having a good peak beyond having a nice boxsore on a bad team? We already know he is not actually a real 10 RPG caliber player and he likely just got it because he's playing with Bargani and other guys who can't grab boards.

Seems like he became a much more useful player when he scaled down his scoring and upped his defense.


I'm not especially high on him either. I think he gets overrated a bit due to having played on those Miami teams but my problem with that is his ppg and rpg went down a lot and his playoffs weren't really anything to write home about(while missing playoff games). Also not that high on his Toronto years.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#8 » by trex_8063 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:24 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Is there solid evidence to Chris Bosh having a good peak beyond having a nice boxsore on a bad team? We already know he is not actually a real 10 RPG caliber player and he likely just got it because he's playing with Bargani and other guys who can't grab boards.

Seems like he became a much more useful player when he scaled down his scoring and upped his defense.


I'm not especially high on him either. I think he gets overrated a bit due to having played on those Miami teams but my problem with that is his ppg and rpg went down a lot and his playoffs weren't really anything to write home about(while missing playoff games). Also not that high on his Toronto years.


Re: rebounding
Certainly there weren't a lot of great rebounders on those Toronto teams, and they were fairly consistently near to the bottom of the league in OREB%.
otoh, there's a three-year stretch where they're 4th, 8th, and 11th in the league in DREB%; that's with Bosh grabbing the lion's share of boards (primary cast were guys like Anthony Parker, Jose Calderon, ~21 mpg of Rasho Nesterovic, other spare parts).

That first year in Miami they were 4th in DREB%, too, Bosh was leading the team in rpg.
To be clear, I'd agree he's a marginally weak rebounding PF......but only marginally so, imo.


Re: peak
Depends on what you mean by "solid".
As I feel this is in response to me [I'm basically the only one who's brought up Bosh], I'll restate my opinion of his peak: "near All-NBA 2nd Team level".

I've not suggested anything overly complimentary or lofty [didn't suggest he was MVP material, or that he's the best peak left on the table]. Merely "near" 2nd Team level.
Do you feel that's inaccurate?

I don't. I'd look at either '08 or '10 as his peak, personally.....

'08 - he averaged ~22/9 on good [hedging close to very good] shooting efficiency, and not for some bottom-feeding team: they were 41-41, but with a substantially positive SRS [49-33 expected W/L]. I don't know what their SRS was in the games he played, but I suspect it was a fair bit better than that, given they were 37-30 in games he played, but fell apart to the tune of 4-11 in the fifteen he missed.
He's 9th in RAPM that season (while playing 36.2 mpg).

'10 - he averages pretty close to 24/11 on good shooting efficiency, though this time for a barely mediocre 40-42 team; they're awful [dead-last] defensively, though he's anchoring the 5th-rated offense. His supporitng cast in descending order of minutes is Bargnani, Turkoglu, Jarret Jack, Calderon, rookie DeMar, Amir Johnson, Antoine Wright, Sonny Weams.
His RAPM is again 9th in the league (36.1 mpg).

I don't think calling either of those seasons "near 2nd Team level" is a mischaracterization at all.


Re: "much more useful" in reduced role
Hard to say, though I'll note this is NOT supported by the impact data.

His league rank in RAPM during his final three seasons in Toronto:
9th
tied for 12th
9th
(36-38 mpg for all)

His league rank in RAPM from '11-'13:
tied for 14th
tied for 21st
tied for 56th
('11 is the only one he played >36 mpg)

I do give him credit for re-inventing himself, though.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#9 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:48 pm

1. Nikola Jokic - I might be voting for Jokic for a while but I think he deserves to make the list at least. Jokic' case is very similar to Giannis in my opinion. Both have 4 high level years along with 1 other positively contributing year. While both have 4 great regular seasons it is clear Giannis has the edge up till 2020, which is why I have him ahead. The difference in longevity is just Giannis' first two years when he was barely a replacement level player so if you're fine with Giannis being voted in this range, how can you justify not having Jokic not in your top 100 at all? Their play-off resumes are comparable at this point as well. Giannis has 5.8 WS and 3.4 VORP in the post-season so far compared to 5.5 WS and 3.5 VORP for Jokic. Giannis has reached the play-offs more often (5 times) than Jokic (2 times) but both have 3 play-off series wins at this point. While Giannis has played 10 more games than Jokic, the reason why the numbers are still close is that both of Jokic' runs were arguably better than any of Giannis' play-off outings. I just think this is closer than a lot of people think already.

2. Ben Wallace - Boxscore stats generally don't do defensive specialists justice but even so Ben Wallace still comes out looking very well in stats like WS and BPM. Despite a relatively short 6 year prime Ben still has pretty solid longevity at this point in the list as well. The main factor why I'm voting for him here is his excellent post-season play. 3 consecutive post-season runs with 3+ WS and 1+ VORP is very impressive. That alone would be a strong play-off pedigree at this point but he has multiple other very solid performances in the post-season as well. His pivotal role for the Pistons in some very deep runs and even a championship shouldn't be understated.

3. Kevin Johnson - Strong peak at this point in the list and he managed to carry on that level for quite a few years. Probably one of the strongest primes left. Although KJ didn't have the longest career, he still has solid longevity. He was a very high level play-off performer as well with at least 4 strong post-season runs and a couple of decent ones.

Gus Williams > Sidney Moncrief > Anfernee Hardaway > Grant Hill > Horace Grant > James Worthy > Bobby Jones > Jeff Hornacek > Shawn Marion > Larry Nance > Hal Greer > Bob McAdoo > Chris Bosh > Dennis Rodman > Bill Walton > Dennis Johnson
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:55 pm

Thru post #9:

Dennis Rodman - 1 (Hal14)
Kevin Johnson - 1 (trex_8063)
Nikola Jokic - 1 (Dutchball97)
Hal Greer - 1 (Cavsfansince84)


About 26 hours left for this one.

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joe Malburg wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#11 » by sansterre » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:31 pm

1. Larry Nance - I know that nobody else has mentioned him (except for TRex bringing his name up to me). But I'm telling you, Larry Nance was considerably better than you think. You know that Bill James observation that people like players who do one thing historically well more than players who are quite good at everything (Lou Brock vs. Ron Santo is a good example - Santo was miles better, but Brock was more historically notable)? Anyhow. This applies to Nance particularly. He was an athletic 6'10" power forward who played strong defense. He consistently posted strong defensive stats (Block% above 3.5 and Steal% above 1 for much of his career) and pretty much every metric we have (which are, in fairness, mostly box score driven) really likes his defense. But he was no Hakeem or Ewing. He was merely an unusually good defending 4. He also rebounded well, averaging 13+% TRB for most of his career, but he was never great. Just quite good. Passing/ball control? His turnover were low for a big, and his assists were in the "not a liability, but definitely not strong" for a big. His scoring? His usage rate was rarely higher than 22%, and his PP75 were never much above 21-22. But his efficiency was exceptional, posting seven different seasons with an rTS% above +5, and four above +6. You know who his statistical (not play style, just statistical) comp is? Kevin McHale.

McHale: 30.1k minutes, 22.4% usage, +6.7 rTS, 13.2% Reb, 8.1% Ast, 11.7% TO, 0.6% Stl, 3.2% Blk, +2.4 / +0.1 / +2.5
Nance: 30.7k minutes, 20.6% usage, +4.9 rTS, 13.6% Reb, 11.8% Ast, 11.3% TO, 1.4% Stl, 3.8% Blk, +2.3 / +1.4 / +3.6

They're comparable as rebounders. As passers Nance has a small edge. McHale is clearly the better scorer but Nance (according to box score metrics) was the notably better defender. Now, I'll be the first to admit that McHale's defense is underestimated by DBPM. I'm not trying to suggest that Nance was the better defender necessarily. But if I said "Picture McHale, slightly worse scorer, comparable defender and slightly better passer" . . . that's a pretty good player, right? And I'll stipulate that McHale's scoring took a jump in the postseason where Nance's didn't, but still. McHale got in a while ago. And it's worth mentioning that McHale's WOWYR numbers are fairly humdrum (+3.6 prime) compared to Nance's +5.1 prime.

So if Nance was so good, why is nobody talking about him? Because his teams never won. He was dominant on a series of decent Phoenix teams, and then they traded Nance and immediately took off. That may sound like a bad look for Nance but Phoenix got a haul for him. They basically got West and Corbin (their quality defensive bigs for the next five years) and Dan Majerle while replacing Nance with free agent Tom Chambers. Both teams got what they needed. And in Nance's twilight years (where he was still very good) his Cavs were quite good, breaking 50+ wins several times. But he was never on a team that made the Finals. And frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. Nance was an excellent all-around player that both impact metrics (WOWYR) and box score metrics think very well of.

2. Shawn Marion - Pretty much every box-score stat *loves* Marion. He's at least a standard deviation above the mean of this group in BackPicks, PIPM, WS and VORP (in this group he is 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 2nd respectively in those metrics). He's a really, really weird player. Given his success in box score metrics you might guess he was a scorer but he really wasn't. His usage in his prime was above average (but usually in the 22-23% range) and his efficiency was in the +0% to +2% range for much of it. His only strong shooting seasons were from '06 to '08 with Steve Nash, for which Nash perhaps deserves some credit. But Marion, whether he played a big SF or small PF was a ferocious rebounder for his position/height. If I ask StatHead for players 6'7" or under with seasons at 13% TRB or better, I get Charles Barkley having 14, and then next is Shawn Marion tied with Wes Unseld with 11. I'm not trying to sell you on Marion being a Rodman, he wasn't, he was just a really, really great rebounder for his size. He was never a good passer, but he mitigated the cost there by turning the ball over very rarely (consistent AST:TO > 1). And he was really, really good on defense. Not Bill Russell or anything, but he was a really strong defensive wing. With the understanding that these are just steals and blocks, if I ask StatHead for players that averaged 2.5% steals or better, and 2% blocks or better, I get 6 of Marion and Hakeem, 5 or Erving, 4 of Wade and Kirilenko and then others at 3. Blocks and steals are not great stats, but those are all extremely athletic players. After his prime, Marion reinvented himself as something of a rebounding/defensive specialist, and was a critical piece of the 2011 Mavericks. He played a long career (40k minutes) and also had a strong (if not flashy) prime. His AuRPMs are good but not as good as you'd think (slightly below average for this group) and his -> playoff numbers weren't great. But given his blend of strong prime *and* strong longevity, Marion is hard to pick against here. Unless you like flashy scorers. Then don't vote Marion.

3. Jeff Hornacek - "Jeff Hornacek!?" you say. "Jeff Hornacek" I say. There are simply not metrics that he looks bad in. His BackPicks BPM, Win Shares CORP and VORP CORP are all well above average for this group. His PIPM is a little underwhelming, though still above average. And his peak WOWYR of +5.2 is one of the best in this group. Surprising, right? And yet, he's weirdly excellent.

Let's imagine that we looked for strong (but not dominant) shooting guard seasons. We're looking for a 2nd/3rd option, so sub 22% usage. He needs to break an OBPM of +2, TS above 57% and post PPX above 22. But we want him to be a solid passer who doesn't make mistakes, so AST% > 22% and TO% below 12.5%. That's a pretty specific player I just asked for. But Hornacek had six of those seasons; nobody else had more than 1. What if I loosened the terms? If I allowed usage rates higher than 22% I'd get Jordan and Kyrie tying with him. If I dropped the shooting efficiency requirement Fat Lever had four of those seasons. If I remove the assist requirement Hornacek had 8 seasons, with Reggie Miller and J.J. Reddick having 5 each. My point is, I'll stipulate that Hornacek was only an average usage player. But within those constraints he 1) scored efficiently, 2) passed well (or at least for volume), 3) turned the ball over very little (Assist:TO of 2.5 for much of his career) and 4) overall contributed to offenses at a solid level. And he did it for a long freaking time. He never really had a "Peak" because his seasons were metronomically excellent. He put up four straight 3+ VORP seasons in Phoenix, then another five in Utah. So if you're trying to remember Hornacek's time when he dominated the league . . . you won't find it. He was merely really good for a very long time.

And he kept showing up on strong teams. His age 25 season (1989) was when the Suns took a big step forward. Was he the one driving it? No, KJ was. But Johnson surely benefited from the spacing that Hornacek provided. And by VORP, Hornacek was the 2nd best player on both the '89 and '90 Suns (two teams that made my Top 100 list). In '92 The Suns posted a +5.68 RSRS with Hornacek as their best player (according to VORP). From 1992 to 1993 the Suns replaced Hornacek with Danny Ainge, and replaced Tim Perry and Andrew Lang with Charles Barkley and Cedric Ceballos. And the team's RSRS improved by . . . +0.59. Perry + Lang -> Barkely + Ceballos is clearly a monster upgrade. And Danny Ainge was no pushover. Was losing Hornacek a bigger blow than we thought? I don't want to overplay it; KJ missed almost half the year and that was clearly a driving force. And I'm not trying to sell you on the idea that Hornacek was a Barkley-level player. He wasn't. But even with KJ missing some time, you'd think the jump from '92 to '93 would be bigger than it was. Unless Hornacek was actually better than anyone realized.

And then Utah. Here are their seasons starting at '93:

1993: 47-35, +1.74 RSRS
1994: 53-29, +4.10 RSRS
1995: 60-22, +7.76 RSRS
1996: 55-27, +6.25 RSRS
1997: 64-18, +7.97 RSRS

They acquired Hornacek in the middle of one of those seasons; any guesses which?

Look. This is all slightly circumstantial. There are other factors that explain why the Jazz went from being decent to being the best team in the conference besides Jeff Hornacek. But Hornacek was clearly a big part of it.

Naysayers would argue that Hornacek was a bad first option. This is totally true. He had no business running your offense as the primary ball handler. But as long as he wasn't asked to take more than 20% of the team's shots he'd space the floor, can shots at a well-above average rate, pass well, not screw anything up and generate a fair number of steals. And the combination of these things had a consistent and genuine impact, even if no one of them is particularly remarkable.

We don't have AuRPM for his whole career, but here are his numbers with the Jazz starting at Age 31:

+3.4, +2.8, +5.9, +5.2, +4.5, +3.1

Two +5 seasons toward the tail-end of his career? That's damned impressive.

Nance > Shawn Marion > Hornacek > Terry Porter > Horace Grant > D.Green? > Kyle Lowry > B.Wallace > Eddie Jones > Bosh > Bellamy > Jokic > A.Kirilenko > Hill > M.Cheeks > B.Walton > P.George > Webber > LaMarcus Aldridge > KJ > D.Issel > A.Iguodala > H.Greer > Moncrief > J.Worthy > A.Hardaway > B.Jones > J.Butler > D.Lillard > D.Johnson > D.Rodman > C.Mullin > B.McAdoo > K.Irving > K.Thompson
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:03 am

1. Bobby Jones, NBA history's greatest "glue guy," with super consistency and versatility, although a defensive star instead of an offensive one. Note that Jones has more 1st team All-Defense teams than any other player in history with 11 (2 ABA). He was 1st All-Defense team every year of his career until his final one where he was 2nd team. One of only 4 guys to ever average 2 blocks, 2 steals in a season and the only one not named Hakeem to do it twice (76, 77 with rounding to nearest 10th). Offensively, he was an 10-15ppg guy who, despite not being a post-up big, led the ABA/NBA in fg% three times and was an excellent passer as well. FInished 2nd and 4th in MVP voting in his two highest minute seasons. All this despite asthma that limited his stamina.

2. Shawn Marion I know he complained about his role in Phoenix but it never seemed to affect his play on the floor. Terrific player even before Steve Nash, with Nash he ascended to amazing levels; always thought of him as the co-MPV on those SSOL teams (with Amare as overrated).

3. Dennis Rodman -- Yes, one of the great headcases in NBA history (but for that matter so was Jordan, just in a different way). But also a legit GOAT rebounder candidate and a brutal defender when focused on that. Watching him, he just affects the game in so many ways (mainly good but some bad as well). If he had Bo Outlaw's personality, he'd be top 50 for me.

I am looking at Nance, H. Grant, Greer, Jeff Hornacek, KJ, Moncrief, McAdoo, Hawkins, DJ, Ben Wallace in roughly that order (lots of new names being mentioned). Those are subject to change and new players to be added. I don't have Walton on my top 100 despite his iconic status (and not sure about Hawkins or even Moncrief either). I don't see Jokic as top 100 without including this year.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#13 » by Young Dude » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:09 am

LOL #75 and no Yao Ming? Dude would've been top 25 if China didn't run him to the ground and made him retire at age 30. His game would thrive in any era of the NBA, even today as a stretch BIG.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:51 pm

penbeast0 wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.


Hal14, could you please provide your ordered list of the six players who've received votes? I know that among Rodman/Jones/Nance, you're going with Rodman > Jones > Nance......but I have little idea where Greer, KJ, and Jokic fit into it [other than knowing they all trail Rodman].

pen, could you please insert KJ, Greer, and Jokic into your listing of extra players, too?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#15 » by penbeast0 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:57 pm

Greer was 6th on my list right after Grant, I added KJ at 8th right after Hornacek. Jokic would be at the bottom of the list right before Walton as I said that he wasn't in my top 100 thinking at this point.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#16 » by Hal14 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:14 pm

Runoff vote:

1) Dennis Rodman
2) Hal Greer
3) Bobby Jones
4) Kevin Johnson
5) Larry Nance
6) Nikola Jokic
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#17 » by Odinn21 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:27 pm

75. Kevin Johnson
Well, even in his prime he struggled with health issues and he has basically no value outside of his prime, but 8-9 seasons (7ish seasons effectively) of prime on that level is good enough for me to have him on this spot.

76. Bob McAdoo
Very very good 5-6 seasons of prime with a great peak. Then he was a valuable member of the Lakers in the '80s, very much like Bill Walton in '86 but for longer and also better. The difference between KJ and McAdoo, KJ's prime being longer in playtime.

77. Ben Wallace
I considered players with 5-6 seasons of prime such as Sidney Moncrief, Grant Hill. But I think in terms of best 5-6 consecutive seasons, Wallace was straight up better player and he had better prime duration.

The other players on my radar;
Hal Greer, Shawn Marion, Larry Nance, James Worthy, Horace Grant, Elton Brand, Terry Porter, Tim Hardaway. I'm reluctant about Rodman and Webber tbh.

My preference among effective votes;
Greer > Nance > Jokic > B. Jones > Rodman
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#18 » by Hal14 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:32 pm

Odinn21 wrote:75. Kevin Johnson
Well, even in his prime he struggled with health issues and he has basically no value outside of his prime, but 8-9 seasons (7ish seasons effectively) of prime on that level is good enough for me to have him on this spot.

76. Bob McAdoo
Very very good 5-6 seasons of prime with a great peak. Then he was a valuable member of the Lakers in the '80s, very much like Bill Walton in '86 but for longer and also better. The difference between KJ and McAdoo, KJ's prime being longer in playtime.

77. Ben Wallace
I considered players with 5-6 seasons of prime such as Sidney Moncrief, Grant Hill. But I think in terms of best 5-6 consecutive seasons, Wallace was straight up better player and he had better prime duration.

The other players on my radar;
Hal Greer, Shawn Marion, Larry Nance, James Worthy, Horace Grant, Elton Brand, Terry Porter, Tim Hardaway. I'm reluctant about Rodman and Webber tbh.

My preference among effective votes;
Greer > Nance > Jokic > B. Jones > Rodman

Reluctant about Rodman but totally fine with Wallace? Both similar players (all time great defenders, not good scorers), Rodman definitely better rebounder, Rodman more rings but did have better teammates. Also, I highly doubt any Bulls fans would rank Grant over Rodman. Terry Porter higher on an all time greatest players list over Rodman? Next we'll have people ranking Mark Price over Rodman, smh
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#19 » by Odinn21 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:44 pm

Hal14 wrote:Reluctant about Rodman but totally fine with Wallace? Both similar players (all time great defenders, not good scorers), Rodman definitely better rebounder, Rodman more rings but did have better teammates. Also, I highly doubt any Bulls fans would rank Grant over Rodman. Terry Porter higher on an all time greatest players list over Rodman? Next we'll have people ranking Mark Price over Rodman, smh

Rodman was not the defender Ben Wallace was.
If the Bulls fans do not rank Grant over Rodman, that's on them. Grant is their team's 5th or 6th greatest player. Quality debate aside, Rodman's playtime is like one third of Grant's for the team. Not a single Bulls fan worth his salt would pick Rodman over Grant. And more importantly, that's hardly an argument.
If you approach this project as "the top 100 career resume", sure, Rodman has a great case to be the top 75. But with the way we're going, there's nothing wrong with seeing a solid case for Terry Porter or Mark Price over Dennis Rodman.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #75 

Post#20 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:23 am

Vote 1 - Bob McAdoo
Vote 2 - Bobby Jones
Vote 3 - Hal Greer

The Rest

Carmelo
Marion
Bosh
Kevin Johson
Moncrief
Nance
Rodman
Jokic
Walton


McAdoo's MVP season in 75 was quite impressive posting 34.5 PPG, 14.1 RPG, 2.2 APG, 1.1 SPG, 2.1 BPG on 56.9% TS (+6.7 rTS). The Braves would lose in 7 games to the #1 SRS ranked Bullets that year, with a valiant effort by McAdoo: 37.4 PPG, 13.4 RPG, 1.4 APG, .9 SPG, 2.7 BPG, 52.8% TS. He was an efficiency darling in general during his prime with rTS ranging from +3 to +9. I think at this point in the project every player will have their flaws, and his defense comes off more as knocking him down a peg as opposed to a major liability.

The contributions to the lakers 82 and 85 championship teams give him the edge over someone like giannis for me. In the 82 run he put up 16.7 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 1.6 APG, .7 SPG, 1.5 BPG on 58.7% TS. I just don't value short careers, even as impressive as giannis' as much. Anythony Davis got in much higher than I had him, even with the championship run for example.

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