Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs

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Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#1 » by coastalmarker99 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 8:59 am

Game 1, 1960 ECF vs Boston

Wilt scores 42 points and grabs 29 rebounds and disses out 1 assist on 17-35 FG/FGA, while Russell had 19 points and 30 rebounds plus 1 assist on 9-17 shooting


The difference was for this game


Was that Woody Sauldsberry went 3-21 and Wilt's teammates shoot 30% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 7

Also, Guy Rodgers missed two clutch free throws when the score was tied 107 107 in game 6 of the 1960 Ecf if he hits them then Wilt and the Warriors would have gone to a game 7 vs the Celtics.


Game 1, 1961 ECSF vs Syracuse

Wilts teammates shoot 28.8% from the field after Wilt drops 46 and 32

Wilts teammates shot 33.2% from the field this series (8.3% below league average) and they were swept



Game 1, 1962 ECF vs Boston

Wilt scores 33 points and grabs 31 rebounds and disses out 3 assists on 13-25 FG/FGA, while Russell had 16 points and 30 rebounds plus 4 assists on 7-22 shooting


Yet the difference in this game was that Wilts teammates shoot 23.5% from the field.

Overall, Wilt's teammates shot .35.4 in that post-season. His two "HOF' teammates, Arizin and Gola shot .37.5 and .27.1 respectively.

With all of that, Wilt carried that putrid roster to a game seven, two-point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics.

Wilt's teammate, Tom Meschery summed it up best, "The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was all Wilt's doing. We came within two points of the championship because of that man."



Game 4, 1964 Finals vs Boston

Wilts teammates shoot 27.7% from the field in a 3 point loss also for the series Wilt averaged 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, and shot .51.7 yet his teammates collectively shot 38.2 per cent from the floor.




Game 5, 1965 ECF vs Boston

Wilts teammates shoot 30.8% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 7


Game 7, 1965 ECF vs Boston

Down by one with seconds left with a chance to win the game after Wilt scored the last ten points Wilt's teammates don’t know how to inbound the ball and throw it to John Havlicek which ends their season



In the '65-66 ECF' Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg,, 3.2 apg, and on a .50.9 FG%. while..his teammates collectively shot (again, from a team with the best record in the league)... .35.2 from the field! Wilt's numbers were nearly identical to his regular-season ones vs the Celtics but his teammates, as they most often did, just puked all over the floor throughout that series
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#2 » by coastalmarker99 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 9:34 am

If there is one thing I will criticize Wilt for.


It is for not being more selfish as a scorer during his Warriors days


I don't care about Wilt not maximizing his Warrior teammates in the playoffs when they are shooting 23 per cent and 35 per cent from the floor in most postseason games when they actually have the ball in their hands.



For example, these next set of numbers are Wilt's playoff eFG%'s, his Warriors teammates (collectively and without Wilt), and the post-season league averages.








59-60:
Wilt: .49.6
Team: .38.0
League: .40.2

60-61:
Wilt: .46.9
Team: .33.2
League: .40.3

61-62:
Wilt: .46.7
Team: .35.4
League: .41.1

63-64:
Wilt: .54.3
Team: .38.3
League: .42.0
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#3 » by countryboy667 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:39 pm

Anyone who crowns Jordan or anyone else GOAT without considering Wilt is fooling themselves. One on one, as a pure athlete, and at his best as a teammate (68 Sixers) there's no-one before or since like Wilt. End of story.

To those who say he didn't win enough--as the OP here points out perfectly--they just have NO understanding of how good and dominant those Celtic teams of that era actually were.

Jerry West put it best--said he'd like to see any of today's best bigs play against Wilt--and said any of them would get totally embarrassed.

Wilt continually and unfairly gets one bad rap after another, here on RealGM and other places. As he said, no one roots for Goliath.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#4 » by SkyHookFTW » Tue Apr 6, 2021 10:37 pm

I have said this in the past about Wilt's performance vs. his teammates performances in the playoffs during those early years. Even GOAT's need help. No one does it alone.
"It's scarier than Charles Barkley at an all you can eat buffet." --Shaq on Shark Week
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#5 » by picko » Tue Apr 6, 2021 11:01 pm

countryboy667 wrote:Anyone who crowns Jordan or anyone else GOAT without considering Wilt is fooling themselves. One on one, as a pure athlete, and at his best as a teammate (68 Sixers) there's no-one before or since like Wilt. End of story.


As a pure athlete he might very well be the GOAT. As a basketball player though he isn't remotely in contention.

Wilt's standing in league history is built predominantly on his scoring exploits - the 100 point game and the 50 point season. They immediately jump out of the record books and help explain why generation after generation of fans become obsessed by him.

However, he isn't in the top hundred for points scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs (min. 2000 minutes). He ranks 15th all-time by position, behind well-known scoring juggernauts such as Dwight Howard and Rik Smits, and 17th among players from 1959-60 to 1972-73.

On only one occasion did Wilt lead the playoffs in scoring average (1963-64), compared with seven-times leading the league in the regular season. By comparison, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (with one scoring title between them in the regular season), led the playoffs in scoring average eight-times between them. Wilt's 40 and 50-point games, so common in the regular season, completely dry up in the playoffs.

Wilt might be the only player whose legacy is enhanced by what he could do rather than what he actually did. When in actual fact the difference between the two, particularly in the playoffs, should be damning.

While it is true that Wilt's teammates often let him down in the playoffs. It's also true that Wilt often let himself and his teammates down in the playoffs. If realGM had existed throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Wilt's playoff performances would be given the Giannis or Harden treatment. There'd be tonnes of threads about his failures and the illusion that he was somehow unstoppable and unguardable, the greatest of all-time, would be broken.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#6 » by ZeppelinPage » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:24 am

picko wrote:As a pure athlete he might very well be the GOAT. As a basketball player though he isn't remotely in contention.

Wilt's standing in league history is built predominantly on his scoring exploits - the 100 point game and the 50 point season. They immediately jump out of the record books and help explain why generation after generation of fans become obsessed by him.

However, he isn't in the top hundred for points scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs (min. 2000 minutes). He ranks 15th all-time by position, behind well-known scoring juggernauts such as Dwight Howard and Rik Smits, and 17th among players from 1959-60 to 1972-73.

On only one occasion did Wilt lead the playoffs in scoring average (1963-64), compared with seven-times leading the league in the regular season. By comparison, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (with one scoring title between them in the regular season), led the playoffs in scoring average eight-times between them. Wilt's 40 and 50-point games, so common in the regular season, completely dry up in the playoffs.

Wilt might be the only player whose legacy is enhanced by what he could do rather than what he actually did. When in actual fact the difference between the two, particularly in the playoffs, should be damning.

While it is true that Wilt's teammates often let him down in the playoffs. It's also true that Wilt often let himself and his teammates down in the playoffs. If realGM had existed throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Wilt's playoff performances would be given the Giannis or Harden treatment. There'd be tonnes of threads about his failures and the illusion that he was somehow unstoppable and unguardable, the greatest of all-time, would be broken.


You bring up the drop in scoring average for Wilt, yet fail to add the context that is always needed. This being that he had fewer shots from the amount of doubles and triples he was facing in the playoffs due to the refs allowing illegal defense.

Not just that, but it's important to remember he was going up against some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history each playoff run.

Wilt Regular Season TS% '62-'68: 54.8%
Wilt Playoffs TS% '62-'68: 52.8%

That is a 2-percentage drop off versus all-time level defenses each year. A dip in efficiency is expected, but couple that with a decrease in FGAs from being denied the ball and that explains his PPG. It's hardly a drop off at all--but just for the hell of it lets compare him to other greats vs top defenses sorted (thanks to limbo and 70sfan):

Jordan
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

LeBron
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

Kareem
1970: vs Knicks = 34.2 on .585 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1972: vs Lakers = 33.7 on .432 %TS [-2.2 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sixers = 33.4 on .578 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sonics = 30.6 on .599 %TS [+6.8 rTS] (-5.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1982: vs Suns = 31.8 on .663 %TS [+13.2 rTS] (-4.5 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)

Wilt
1964: vs Celtics = 29.2 ppg on .509 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1965: vs Celtics = 30.1 ppg on .575 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-9.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1962: vs Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .515 %TS [+3.6 rTS] (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1966: vs Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .500 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1960: vs Celtics = 30.5 ppg on .510 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Toughest competition. Still efficient.

The biggest reason he wasn't dropping 40 to 50 points anymore is because he went from playing against awful-to-average defenses for most of the regular season to all-time great level defenses for an entire series. Of course it's going to be harder. I'd say he did quite well given the circumstances.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#7 » by coastalmarker99 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:48 am

ZeppelinPage wrote:
picko wrote:As a pure athlete he might very well be the GOAT. As a basketball player though he isn't remotely in contention.

Wilt's standing in league history is built predominantly on his scoring exploits - the 100 point game and the 50 point season. They immediately jump out of the record books and help explain why generation after generation of fans become obsessed by him.

However, he isn't in the top hundred for points scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs (min. 2000 minutes). He ranks 15th all-time by position, behind well-known scoring juggernauts such as Dwight Howard and Rik Smits, and 17th among players from 1959-60 to 1972-73.

On only one occasion did Wilt lead the playoffs in scoring average (1963-64), compared with seven-times leading the league in the regular season. By comparison, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (with one scoring title between them in the regular season), led the playoffs in scoring average eight-times between them. Wilt's 40 and 50-point games, so common in the regular season, completely dry up in the playoffs.

Wilt might be the only player whose legacy is enhanced by what he could do rather than what he actually did. When in actual fact the difference between the two, particularly in the playoffs, should be damning.

While it is true that Wilt's teammates often let him down in the playoffs. It's also true that Wilt often let himself and his teammates down in the playoffs. If realGM had existed throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Wilt's playoff performances would be given the Giannis or Harden treatment. There'd be tonnes of threads about his failures and the illusion that he was somehow unstoppable and unguardable, the greatest of all-time, would be broken.


You bring up the drop in scoring average for Wilt, yet fail to add the context that is always needed. This being that he had fewer shots from the amount of doubles and triples he was facing in the playoffs due to the refs allowing illegal defense.

Not just that, but it's important to remember he was going up against some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history each playoff run.

Wilt Regular Season TS% '62-'68: 54.8%
Wilt Playoffs TS% '62-'68: 52.8%

That is a 2-percentage drop off versus all-time level defenses each year. A dip in efficiency is expected, but couple that with a decrease in FGAs from being denied the ball and that explains his PPG. It's hardly a drop off at all--but just for the hell of it lets compare him to other greats vs top defenses sorted (thanks to limbo and 70sfan):

Jordan
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

LeBron
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

Kareem
1970: vs Knicks = 34.2 on .585 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1972: vs Lakers = 33.7 on .432 %TS [-2.2 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sixers = 33.4 on .578 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sonics = 30.6 on .599 %TS [+6.8 rTS] (-5.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1982: vs Suns = 31.8 on .663 %TS [+13.2 rTS] (-4.5 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)

Wilt
1964: vs Celtics = 29.2 ppg on .509 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1965: vs Celtics = 30.1 ppg on .575 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-9.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1962: vs Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .515 %TS [+3.6 rTS] (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1966: vs Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .500 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1960: vs Celtics = 30.5 ppg on .510 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Toughest competition. Still efficient.

The biggest reason he wasn't dropping 40 to 50 points anymore is because he went from playing against awful-to-average defenses for most of the regular season to all-time great level defenses for an entire series. Of course it's going to be harder. I'd say he did quite well given the circumstances.





Wilt averaged 33.5 points a game with the Warriors in the playoffs from 1960 to 1964 all the while being doubled and tripled team by the other team.



If Wilt was more selfish scoring-wise as he should have been in the playoffs then Wilt most likely would have averaged 40 points a game in the playoffs with the Warriors despite going up against the goat defensive team every single year.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#8 » by picko » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:28 am

ZeppelinPage wrote:
picko wrote:As a pure athlete he might very well be the GOAT. As a basketball player though he isn't remotely in contention.

Wilt's standing in league history is built predominantly on his scoring exploits - the 100 point game and the 50 point season. They immediately jump out of the record books and help explain why generation after generation of fans become obsessed by him.

However, he isn't in the top hundred for points scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs (min. 2000 minutes). He ranks 15th all-time by position, behind well-known scoring juggernauts such as Dwight Howard and Rik Smits, and 17th among players from 1959-60 to 1972-73.

On only one occasion did Wilt lead the playoffs in scoring average (1963-64), compared with seven-times leading the league in the regular season. By comparison, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (with one scoring title between them in the regular season), led the playoffs in scoring average eight-times between them. Wilt's 40 and 50-point games, so common in the regular season, completely dry up in the playoffs.

Wilt might be the only player whose legacy is enhanced by what he could do rather than what he actually did. When in actual fact the difference between the two, particularly in the playoffs, should be damning.

While it is true that Wilt's teammates often let him down in the playoffs. It's also true that Wilt often let himself and his teammates down in the playoffs. If realGM had existed throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Wilt's playoff performances would be given the Giannis or Harden treatment. There'd be tonnes of threads about his failures and the illusion that he was somehow unstoppable and unguardable, the greatest of all-time, would be broken.


You bring up the drop in scoring average for Wilt, yet fail to add the context that is always needed. This being that he had fewer shots from the amount of doubles and triples he was facing in the playoffs due to the refs allowing illegal defense.

Not just that, but it's important to remember he was going up against some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history each playoff run.

Wilt Regular Season TS% '62-'68: 54.8%
Wilt Playoffs TS% '62-'68: 52.8%

That is a 2-percentage drop off versus all-time level defenses each year. A dip in efficiency is expected, but couple that with a decrease in FGAs from being denied the ball and that explains his PPG. It's hardly a drop off at all--but just for the hell of it lets compare him to other greats vs top defenses sorted (thanks to limbo and 70sfan):

Jordan
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

LeBron
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

Kareem
1970: vs Knicks = 34.2 on .585 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1972: vs Lakers = 33.7 on .432 %TS [-2.2 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sixers = 33.4 on .578 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sonics = 30.6 on .599 %TS [+6.8 rTS] (-5.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1982: vs Suns = 31.8 on .663 %TS [+13.2 rTS] (-4.5 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)

Wilt
1964: vs Celtics = 29.2 ppg on .509 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1965: vs Celtics = 30.1 ppg on .575 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-9.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1962: vs Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .515 %TS [+3.6 rTS] (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1966: vs Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .500 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1960: vs Celtics = 30.5 ppg on .510 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Toughest competition. Still efficient.

The biggest reason he wasn't dropping 40 to 50 points anymore is because he went from playing against awful-to-average defenses for most of the regular season to all-time great level defenses for an entire series. Of course it's going to be harder. I'd say he did quite well given the circumstances.


How does extra context wash away a middling 17.2 points per 36 minutes in the playoffs? It doesn't rank in the top 100 all-time. It ranks 17th among his contemporaries, many of whom also had to play the Celtics.

Do you really think that is impressive? Do you really think that is consistent with the reputation he has as an 'unstoppable' scorer or even the greatest of all-time?

If you value the playoffs - and I think we should - then there is no justification for including Wilt in any discussion of the GOAT. We would absolutely crucify a modern athlete whose scoring numbers declined so considerably in the playoffs, regardless of whether they remained efficient. We certainly wouldn't be blaming his teammates.

It's crazy to me that we continue to judge Wilt on what he could do, if he felt like it, rather than what he did do. In the playoffs he wasn't a spectacular scorer. He just wasn't. The numbers speak for themselves. He was a regular season, flat-track, bully who wasn't able to replicate that level of play against good competition.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:55 am

picko wrote:How does extra context wash away a middling 17.2 points per 36 minutes in the playoffs? It doesn't rank in the top 100 all-time. It ranks 17th among his contemporaries, many of whom also had to play the Celtics.

I mean, it's quite easy to explain without bashing Wilt - he played half of his playoff games as a Laker due to different playoff format. He was already 33 years old in 1969 and he didn't focus on scoring anymore - he averaged only 12.2 points per 36 minutes in playoffs as a Laker compared to 14.5 points per 36 minutes in RS - hardly a significant drop.

Wilt played over half of his RS games as a 30 ppg scorer (1960-66), he played only 32.5% of his playoff games in that period. His 24.9 points per 36 minutes in 1960-66 period ranks higher than Duncan and identical to Shaq and Hakeem known as a great playoff scorers.

Not to mention that using per36 stats for Wilt who played significantly more minutes than modern players is not fair to him.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#10 » by Mazter » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:03 pm

70sFan wrote:
picko wrote:How does extra context wash away a middling 17.2 points per 36 minutes in the playoffs? It doesn't rank in the top 100 all-time. It ranks 17th among his contemporaries, many of whom also had to play the Celtics.

I mean, it's quite easy to explain without bashing Wilt - he played half of his playoff games as a Laker due to different playoff format. He was already 33 years old in 1969 and he didn't focus on scoring anymore - he averaged only 12.2 points per 36 minutes in playoffs as a Laker compared to 14.5 points per 36 minutes in RS - hardly a significant drop.

Wilt played over half of his RS games as a 30 ppg scorer (1960-66), he played only 32.5% of his playoff games in that period. His 24.9 points per 36 minutes in 1960-66 period ranks higher than Duncan and identical to Shaq and Hakeem known as a great playoff scorers.

Well, besides me not getting the bashing thing when someone merely uses a fact as an argument, calculating it back from his RS to his play off minutes he should have averaged 21.3 per 36 in his PS career, which is a drop of 4.1 pts. Significant enough for me.

70sFan wrote:Not to mention that using per36 stats for Wilt who played significantly more minutes than modern players is not fair to him.

I believe we should stop comparing Wilt's minutes with modern players. I mean, Bill Russell averaged 45+ minutes, just like Oscar, Kareem, Bob Love, Hawkins, West, Hayes, Havlicek, Frazier, Hayes, Archie Clark, Greer, Lucas, Cowens and Thurmond. It was not like Wilt was head above his peers with regards to that. He went toe-to-toe with his rivals in an 48 minute war in which both went the distance and got equally tired. The only rest they mostly got was foul trouble or blow out breaks.

Even recently we had Iverson, Marbury, Marion, Finley, Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal up until the last ones LeBron and Arenas doing it in 2006. Playing 45+ minutes in this current era of space and pace and drive and kick would be plain stupid. It would be something like the 400 meter world record holder Wayde van Niekerk trying to beat the Jamaican 4x100m relay team (or any relay team for that matter).
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:14 pm

Mazter wrote:Well, besides me not getting the bashing thing when someone merely uses a fact as an argument,

His argument was that Wilt sucked and couldn't score against tight defenses... is this supposed to be fact?

calculating it back from his RS to his play off minutes he should have averaged 21.3 per 36 in his PS career, which is a drop of 4.1 pts. Significant enough for me.

Sure, but it also includes 1963 season when Wilt missed playoffs.

It's true that Wilt's scoring average dropped in playoffs but the degree of that was overblown and it's important to note that he played 80% of his games against elite, all-time great defenses.

I believe we should stop comparing Wilt's minutes with modern players. I mean, Bill Russell averaged 45+ minutes, just like Oscar, Kareem, Bob Love, Hawkins, West, Hayes, Havlicek, Frazier, Hayes, Archie Clark, Greer, Lucas, Cowens and Thurmond. It was not like Wilt was head above his peers with regards to that. He went toe-to-toe with his rivals in an 48 minute war in which both went the distance and got equally tired. The only rest they mostly got was foul trouble or blow out breaks.

I agree, I don't say that Wilt is a superhuman. I'm saying that player playing 48 mpg makes him less efficient per possession, so comparing linear adjustments is pointless.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#12 » by Statlanta » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:00 pm

Wilt focused on so many things in his prime that I'm not sure he consistently had trash can teammates. I mean when you shift your whole style from scoring to defense to playmaking it's hard to find consistency
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#13 » by Woodsanity » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:50 pm

countryboy667 wrote:Anyone who crowns Jordan or anyone else GOAT without considering Wilt is fooling themselves. One on one, as a pure athlete, and at his best as a teammate (68 Sixers) there's no-one before or since like Wilt. End of story.

To those who say he didn't win enough--as the OP here points out perfectly--they just have NO understanding of how good and dominant those Celtic teams of that era actually were.

Jerry West put it best--said he'd like to see any of today's best bigs play against Wilt--and said any of them would get totally embarrassed.

Wilt continually and unfairly gets one bad rap after another, here on RealGM and other places. As he said, no one roots for Goliath.

If Wilt had a Jordan esque/Kobe esque mentality he would be GOAT easily. He is probably the most physically gifted athlete of all time over guys like Shaq and Lebron.

However, at the end of the day he had no killer instinct. :noway:
twix2500 wrote:If Lebron went to NY and Melo to Miami, Melo would have a trophy and Lebron would not.

Tiesto_Lakers wrote:The more I watch basketball, the more I realize that Kobe, in his absolute prime (2006-2008), was a top 2 player of all-time, only second to Jordan.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#14 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:29 pm

Woodsanity wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:Anyone who crowns Jordan or anyone else GOAT without considering Wilt is fooling themselves. One on one, as a pure athlete, and at his best as a teammate (68 Sixers) there's no-one before or since like Wilt. End of story.

To those who say he didn't win enough--as the OP here points out perfectly--they just have NO understanding of how good and dominant those Celtic teams of that era actually were.

Jerry West put it best--said he'd like to see any of today's best bigs play against Wilt--and said any of them would get totally embarrassed.

Wilt continually and unfairly gets one bad rap after another, here on RealGM and other places. As he said, no one roots for Goliath.

If Wilt had a Jordan esque/Kobe esque mentality he would be GOAT easily. He is probably the most physically gifted athlete of all time over guys like Shaq and Lebron.

However, at the end of the day he had no killer instinct. :noway:

"No killer instinct" is strange argument because:

1. What this infamous "killer instinct" really is?
2. What did Wilt really lack outside of rings?
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#15 » by Woodsanity » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:07 pm

70sFan wrote:
Woodsanity wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:Anyone who crowns Jordan or anyone else GOAT without considering Wilt is fooling themselves. One on one, as a pure athlete, and at his best as a teammate (68 Sixers) there's no-one before or since like Wilt. End of story.

To those who say he didn't win enough--as the OP here points out perfectly--they just have NO understanding of how good and dominant those Celtic teams of that era actually were.

Jerry West put it best--said he'd like to see any of today's best bigs play against Wilt--and said any of them would get totally embarrassed.

Wilt continually and unfairly gets one bad rap after another, here on RealGM and other places. As he said, no one roots for Goliath.

If Wilt had a Jordan esque/Kobe esque mentality he would be GOAT easily. He is probably the most physically gifted athlete of all time over guys like Shaq and Lebron.

However, at the end of the day he had no killer instinct. :noway:

"No killer instinct" is strange argument because:

1. What this infamous "killer instinct" really is?
2. What did Wilt really lack outside of rings?


Wilt was in love with his cute little fadeaway shot and shot from outside a lot more than he should have. Admittingly he was not bad at that shot but he could have been even more dominant if he played more bully ball and was more physical like Shaq.

Wilt was very afraid of public perception of him. He didn't want to be seen as a brute and wanted to be seen as a more skilled, finesse player but frankly pretty much no one could stop him on the inside.

Yes Wilt lacked killer instinct as much as I think the term is arbitrary and silly it applies in this case.

One of the greatest talents in any sport ever, maybe even the greatest.
twix2500 wrote:If Lebron went to NY and Melo to Miami, Melo would have a trophy and Lebron would not.

Tiesto_Lakers wrote:The more I watch basketball, the more I realize that Kobe, in his absolute prime (2006-2008), was a top 2 player of all-time, only second to Jordan.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#16 » by ZeppelinPage » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:06 pm

Wilt could not be as physical as Shaq due to the rules of the era. Not even sure what killer instinct really means.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:43 pm

Woodsanity wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Woodsanity wrote:If Wilt had a Jordan esque/Kobe esque mentality he would be GOAT easily. He is probably the most physically gifted athlete of all time over guys like Shaq and Lebron.

However, at the end of the day he had no killer instinct. :noway:

"No killer instinct" is strange argument because:

1. What this infamous "killer instinct" really is?
2. What did Wilt really lack outside of rings?


Wilt was in love with his cute little fadeaway shot and shot from outside a lot more than he should have. Admittingly he was not bad at that shot but he could have been even more dominant if he played more bully ball and was more physical like Shaq.

Wilt was very afraid of public perception of him. He didn't want to be seen as a brute and wanted to be seen as a more skilled, finesse player but frankly pretty much no one could stop him on the inside.

Yes Wilt lacked killer instinct as much as I think the term is arbitrary and silly it applies in this case.

One of the greatest talents in any sport ever, maybe even the greatest.

So shooting fadeaways means that you lack killer instinct? I didn't know that Jordan, Kobe or Hakeem lacked killer instinct...

About bully ball - that wasn't possible back then, ask any player from that era.
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#18 » by Mazter » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:18 pm

70sFan wrote:His argument was that Wilt sucked and couldn't score against tight defenses... is this supposed to be fact?

His argument was that Wilt's scoring declined in the play offs, but he never dumped Wilt down to the food chain. "Sucked" and "couldn't score" is a term only you used in this topic.

70sFan wrote:Sure, but it also includes 1963 season when Wilt missed playoffs.

Not really, in includes the amount of minutes he had in the play offs with the scoring rate of the RS, which for the 1963 season would be 0 minutes and 0 points.

70sFan wrote:It's true that Wilt's scoring average dropped in playoffs but the degree of that was overblown and it's important to note that he played 80% of his games against elite, all-time great defenses.

Well, it's also true that he played about 75% of his regular season games against not so great defenses...hence the reason why his regular season scoring averages were so high, and his play offs were not. Brings us back to the point Picko tried to make. Wilt's legacy is build on his regular season scoring records he broke and which many still believe he could also have done in the play offs. Which he didn't and probably couldn't. Can you imagine Shaq playing 12 games and 40+ minutes against the Clippers in 99/00?
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#19 » by feyki » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:01 pm

Sorry but it's 50 to 22 :roll: .
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Re: Examples of Wilt getting let down by his trash can teammates in the playoffs 

Post#20 » by penbeast0 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:46 pm

Part of that may be explained by the fact that Wilt getting 50+ that season was something of a stunt; when it came to the playoffs, he focused more on defense and getting his teammates involved and less on being a 1 man team -- a strategy which is supported statistically despite all the fanboys who rave about the monster volume scorers as if pure volume scoring was the most important factor in success (something to which it does not correlate particularly well). In 62, for example, Tom Meschery averaged 13.7 during the season but 20.1 during the playoffs as defenses swarmed Wilt and the Warriors went to Meshery instead. Even Wilt's assists climbed considerably. Plus the pace was considerably slower. In Philly's 7 game series v. Boston, the Sixers scored only 106.5 ppg rather than the 125.4 ppg they scored in the regular season. In their 3-2 win over Syracuse, they scored only 105.4 ppg. So there were less points to go around as well. And despite this lower volume Wilt actually improved his raw rebounding numbers!

I think Wilt was actually a playoff mensch though I don't buy into the OP's trashing of his teammates. He just ran into the GOAT impact player of all time named Bill Russell too often for his legacy to fully reflect his talent.
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