2021 Jokic vs 1993 Hakeem Offense Only

[henshao]

Context is everything. Olajuwon was a great scorer in a lower scoring, defensive minded era. He was scoring with a team that was among the least talented among playoff teams. Jokic is playing against few great bigs, nothing compared to the shotblockers and great bigs Olajuwon faced. Olajuwon is rightfully known as the most skilled Centre ever. He had so many moves.

Wasn’t Olajuwon’s teams built quite well, e.g. in 93-84, to maximize his scoring with the rather modern spacing that they surrounded him with?


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Houston in 1993-94 - 429 threes at 33.4 3P%, 15th out of 27 teams. Kenny Smith was the only player above 37 3P% and made the second most threes at 1.1 3P at 40.5 3P%. Maxwell made 1.6 3P art 30 3P%..

Denver so far this season - 672 threes inn 41 games at 38.7 3P%, 5th of all teams. Denver has three players that shoot better than Kenny, excluding Jokic, and five that shoot over 37 3P%.

Houston wasn't well built and had little talent around Olajuwon. Murray is far better than anyone Olajuwon had.

the supporting cast for the Rockets were just able to make 3s at a threatening rate with the shortened line, I'm not sure Smith would have started for most of the NBA at that point

[VDT]

Jokic has been a (sub) 20ppg points his whole career. Yes this year he is higher but i am not sure how much of it is real. A lot of star players have improved their scoring volume and efficiency this year for whatever reason. We will see how the rest of the seasons as well as the next couple of seasons go to determine how sustainable his current stats are.

He averages 7 assist per game and on elite offenses every season - he averages 20 points per game because he doesn't need to score more. people say things like Nash and Stockton don't score a lot - if someone has 14 assist they don't exactly need 25 PPG.


Hakeem has a long history of scoring a lot of points, but the Rockets also have a long history of not being a very good offensive team. Not saying it's Hakeem's fault, but just because someone scores more points during the RS doesn't mean they are a better scorer.


But the big thing that makes Jokic's scoring convincing is that we have two playoff runs with good sample sizes - and he averages 25 PPG on great efficiency. Like someone like Reggie Miller who often didn't average 20 points per game, he can scale his PPG up at will essentially.


His PPG went up by like 7 points this season - I don't think the difference in offense between the 2020 and 2021 season is enough that a player is going to average that many more points (while also putting up 5+ better TS%). Jokic simply got better this season. (he is 25 years old, why would you assume he did not improve?)

Assist numbers are inflated, maybe half of the assists are actual assists , possibly less. As a result the impact of players with high assist numbers, typically the guys that run the offense, tends to also be inflated imo. This includes box score based impact stats. I am also not sure how meaningful it is it compare assist number across eras due to possible differences in the way the stat is counted.

Jokic has been in the playoffs two years, so the sample size (33 games)is not that big. For example both years his 3 point shooting was 10% above his average in the same year, inflating his stats and efficiency. Similarly, i am not buying that he became a 42% shooter this year from 31% last year. He may have improved but i would be surprised if it by that much.

Nevertheless, Jokic has been part of or run good offenses throughout the years and that's probably his best argument imo. It is a discussion for another thread, but i generally think that things are usually (not just for Jokic) more complicated
than simply attributing a team stat to a player, either in a positive or negative way.

[Max123]

Wasn’t Olajuwon’s teams built quite well, e.g. in 93-84, to maximize his scoring with the rather modern spacing that they surrounded him with?


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Houston in 1993-94 - 429 threes at 33.4 3P%, 15th out of 27 teams. Kenny Smith was the only player above 37 3P% and made the second most threes at 1.1 3P at 40.5 3P%. Maxwell made 1.6 3P art 30 3P%..

Denver so far this season - 672 threes inn 41 games at 38.7 3P%, 5th of all teams. Denver has three players that shoot better than Kenny, excluding Jokic, and five that shoot over 37 3P%.

Houston wasn't well built and had little talent around Olajuwon. Murray is far better than anyone Olajuwon had.

the supporting cast for the Rockets were just able to make 3s at a threatening rate with the shortened line, I'm not sure Smith would have started for most of the NBA at that point

Just want to make it clear that I’m not contesting this, I am saying that his team was quite well equipped, because of the spacing for its time, to maximise Olajuwon’s skillset as a scorer.


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[Woodsanity]

Jokic what made Hakeem great was his DPOY level defense while still being a dominant scorer. Offense only, Hakeem is nowhere near the passer Jokic is and its questionable whether he is even a better scorer.

[OdomFan]

I'll take Hakeem just because his footwork and post moves are much smoother than Jokics imo. Being a better shooter is debatable but I think he created shots better for himself.

[Jaivl]

Being a better shooter is debatable

Right now It's really not. 2021 Jokic is clearly outshooting even Dirk (GOAT big shooter).

He's at the exact same percentages from mid and 3pt than 2005 Steve Nash.

[homecourtloss]

I'll take Hakeem just because his footwork and post moves are much smoother than Jokics imo. Being a better shooter is debatable but I think he created shots better for himself.

Is this satire? Yes, Olajuwon had unparalleled footwork and a variety of post moves, but they did t lead to better offense than what Jokic generates. As a 40+ year old here, it baffles me why fans who disparage the modern game are so obsessed with “footwork and post moves.”

Also, about better shooting being debatable smh

[OdomFan]

I'll take Hakeem just because his footwork and post moves are much smoother than Jokics imo. Being a better shooter is debatable but I think he created shots better for himself.

Is this satire? Yes, Olajuwon had unparalleled footwork and a variety of post moves, but they did t lead to better offense than what Jokic generates. As a 40+ year old here, it baffles me why fans who disparage the modern game are so obsessed with “footwork and post moves.”

Also, about better shooting being debatable smh

uh huh. To each their own.

[70sFan]

I've been scouting peak Hakeem for a while and no; he's not as good shooter as Jokic.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It's really not close, at this point.
The only potential argument for Hakeem is about him being a better shotmaker out of broken plays. And I am not even sure that's actually true.

Jokic is likely having the best offensive season for a big man EVER. Of the ones I witnessed, only Dirk or Shaq come close, but I would still pick him.

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[Ryoga Hibiki]

I've been scouting peak Hakeem for a while and no; he's not as good shooter as Jokic.

The thing is that there a few tier between the two, as far as shooting.
The difference between being a good shooter for a center and being a great shooter period.

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[Johnny Firpo]

He played in an era with less spacing and less freedom of movement, ignoring the actual skill-set and abilities of each player.

That's not a pro-Hakeem argument. That's more an argument for why the numbers overstate the difference. The gap is still clear which i think you know.

You asked what the argument for Hakeem is and I gave you the answer.

You come off very dense.

You gave a crappy argument, because we have a rather big playoff sample for Joker now, so we KNOW that the scoring is real.

[Colbinii]

That's not a pro-Hakeem argument. That's more an argument for why the numbers overstate the difference. The gap is still clear which i think you know.

You asked what the argument for Hakeem is and I gave you the answer.

You come off very dense.

You gave a crappy argument, because we have a rather big playoff sample for Joker now, so we KNOW that the scoring is real.

Of course the argument is crappy--no one in their right mind should have Hakeem as an equal offensive player to Nikola Jokic.

[Owly]

Wasn’t Olajuwon’s teams built quite well, e.g. in 93-84, to maximize his scoring with the rather modern spacing that they surrounded him with?


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Houston in 1993-94 - 429 threes at 33.4 3P%, 15th out of 27 teams. Kenny Smith was the only player above 37 3P% and made the second most threes at 1.1 3P at 40.5 3P%. Maxwell made 1.6 3P art 30 3P%..

Denver so far this season - 672 threes inn 41 games at 38.7 3P%, 5th of all teams. Denver has three players that shoot better than Kenny, excluding Jokic, and five that shoot over 37 3P%.

Houston wasn't well built and had little talent around Olajuwon. Murray is far better than anyone Olajuwon had.

I won’t contest this too much as I really haven’t researched enough. Though I will say that I meant relative to era, they gave quite a lot of space for Hakeem to work with; ofcourse not on the level of any team today but great for his time. And without looking too much into it, you are right that Murray was probably a better offensive player than any single player Olajuwon had with him. There is also an argument to be made, which I probably find quite fair also, that Olajuwon wouldn’t be able to maximise a team’s offense with co-stars like Jokic is able to due to his noted scoring blindness and not great passing from the post.


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Indeed they did because they were 1 in 3 point volume (makes and attempts - 2nd and 3 respectively in '93, 1st and 1st again in '95). To space the floor you need to be credible enough to make it (which Houston mostly were ... I guess reputationally people maybe respected Mad Max's shot a little to much versus what the evidence would support) and a threat to take it ... which Houston were.

Even Olajuwon optimists (IMO) such as Ben Taylor and Bill Simmons see him as a unipolar, inelastic/resilient floor raiser rather than someone who scales well with others. As such surrounding him with floor spacers (or even, in 93 and 94 when with a conventional big in Thorpe a screener, finisher, floor-runner, rebounder rather than someone expecting to have a featured low-post attack).

[Kobe187]

Olajuwon with the dream shakes was a magician in the low post, better put backs and offensive boards, terrific vision and solid passing as well. Jokic is likely the better playmaker and it’s close but giving a slight edge to the Dream.