One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG

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One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG

Kawhi
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42%
KG
25
58%
 
Total votes: 43

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One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#1 » by dygaction » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:23 pm

To build a team for a one year run, regular season + playoffs, who do you choose as the centerpiece?
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#2 » by Cavsfansince84 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:26 pm

I'd take 2017 Kawhi and possibly 2016 or 2019 Kawhi over 04 KG.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#3 » by Statlanta » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:11 am

2004 KG because he's healthier.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#4 » by No-more-rings » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:01 pm

KG is one of the hardest players to evaluate for me peak wise. He had an amazing regular season and a still pretty good playoffs, but it's hard for me to gauge whether or not his impact stayed the same despite some worse scoring and stuff. His two way impact is insane, but sometimes i wonder if he's held back by not having that extra scoring punch like an Hakeem had and to a lesser extent Duncan as well. He's fully capable of carrying a team to a title, but sometimes i wonder if dominant scoring wings give you a better chance(like Kawhi, Kobe, Wade etc). I think if nothing else you have to still go with KG, because he was super durable, you can't say that about Kawhi.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#5 » by No-more-rings » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:02 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I'd take 2017 Kawhi and possibly 2016 or 2019 Kawhi over 04 KG.

2016 over peak KG is really insane sorry lol.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#6 » by Jaivl » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:20 pm

Garnett, by far.

God, just ban the word "Garnett" already
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#7 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:41 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:I'd take 2017 Kawhi and possibly 2016 or 2019 Kawhi over 04 KG.

2016 over peak KG is really insane sorry lol.


I don't really care if people disagree with me but adding the whole sorry lol just comes off as such a childish way to end a comment. You should expect more of yourself in how you interact with others.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#8 » by No-more-rings » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:46 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:I'd take 2017 Kawhi and possibly 2016 or 2019 Kawhi over 04 KG.

2016 over peak KG is really insane sorry lol.


I don't really care if people disagree with me but adding the whole sorry lol just comes off as such a childish way to end a comment. You should expect more of yourself in how you interact with others.

You’re allowed to have a differing opinion from the consensus, but you should explain why. If you’re that easily annoyed by what I said maybe you ought to take a break because it wasn’t intended to be malicious.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#9 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:15 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:2016 over peak KG is really insane sorry lol.


I don't really care if people disagree with me but adding the whole sorry lol just comes off as such a childish way to end a comment. You should expect more of yourself in how you interact with others.

You’re allowed to have a differing opinion from the consensus, but you should explain why. If you’re that easily annoyed by what I said maybe you ought to take a break because it wasn’t intended to be malicious.


It's not a matter of being annoyed so much as you chose the words you responded to me with which imo were overly childish to respond to someone with. I don't think I really need to expand on what I wrote any more than I chose to at that moment either. I didn't say I would actually take 2016 or 19 Kawhi over him regardless. I said possibly. As in I might give it more thought and come back later or might not. Regardless of how you intended what you wrote it was still a childish reply imo. Childishness is not maliciousness either.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#10 » by McBubbles » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:12 pm

I'm inclined to take Peak KG over Peak Kawhi as the former is considerably better at pretty much every single facet of the game besides scoring in which he's considerably worse (though the difference in the offensive environment between 04 and 17-19 can't be overstated). Superior passing and potentially playmaking, superior rebounding, superior defence, superior leadership, bigger matchup problem, etc trump's Kawhi's superior scoring I think.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#11 » by dygaction » Fri Apr 9, 2021 11:43 pm

McBubbles wrote:I'm inclined to take Peak KG over Peak Kawhi as the former is considerably better at pretty much every single facet of the game besides scoring in which he's considerably worse (though the difference in the offensive environment between 04 and 17-19 can't be overstated). Superior passing and potentially playmaking, superior rebounding, superior defence, superior leadership, bigger matchup problem, etc trump's Kawhi's superior scoring I think.


Are you saying this relatively to their positions or comparing Kawhi and KG? If relative to position, Kawhi is the GOAT SF defender. If comparing these two players, they have very comparable passing and playmaking skills since Kawhi became the first option and Kawhi took care of the ball better. Matchup problem I will certainly slide on Kawhi side, as he is more unstoppable (5 seasons with TS% higher than .600), too strong for SF and too quick for PF. His worst playoffs season had a better TS% (.571) than KG's career best (.569).
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#12 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:11 am

People likely say it is too small of a sample size, but 2017 Kawhi is historically underrated and one of the greatest peaks ever. He is deserving to be in this convo. His RS play pales in comparison to 04 Garnett, but Kawhi has a history of elevating his play a lot in the PS, and 2017 was no different. 2017 PS Kawhi was the last year he was arguably a goat level perimeter defender, along with historic scoring and mediocre playmaking. I like how Kawhi fits next to other stars and how his scoring with his consistent mid-range that is impossible to take away will always keep an offense at a decent level. And the PS box-score numbers are unreal:

2017 PS Kawhi
BPM-14.2 (4th all-time)
WS/48-.314 (all-time level stuff btw)
PER-31.5

It isn't even just basic box-score metrics that overhype volume scorers that are in love with him. Impact metrics with plus-minus information love him as well.

PIPM-8.16 (1st all-time for PS runs with at least 163 mins or at least 5 games)
RAPTOR-15.29 (Top 3-5 all-time)
Predator-14.09 (Top 3-5 all-time)
AuPM-10 (maybe #1 all-time)

In comparison

04 PS Kevin Garnett
PIPM-2.42
RAPTOR-7.01
Predator (Predictive Version of RAPTOR)-7.47
AuPM-7.5

*Note AuPM might be slightly off the correct calculation, but relatively close.

I just don't believe Kawhi putting up a historically great PS performance was just due to team construction and hot shooting. It might've played a part, but I truly believe Kawhi was playing like an all-timer. And the magnitude by which he is ahead in this metrics is nothing to sniff at.

I feel more confident in Kawhi honestly.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#13 » by Max123 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:24 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:People likely say it is too small of a sample size, but 2017 Kawhi is historically underrated and one of the greatest peaks ever. He is deserving to be in this convo. His RS play pales in comparison to 04 Garnett, but Kawhi has a history of elevating his play a lot in the PS, and 2017 was no different. 2017 PS Kawhi was the last year he was arguably a goat level perimeter defender, along with historic scoring and mediocre playmaking. I like how Kawhi fits next to other stars and how his scoring with his consistent mid-range that is impossible to take away will always keep an offense at a decent level. And the PS box-score numbers are unreal:

2017 PS Kawhi
BPM-14.2 (4th all-time)
WS/48-.314 (all-time level stuff btw)
PER-31.5

It isn't even just basic box-score metrics that overhype volume scorers that are in love with him. Impact metrics with plus-minus information love him as well.

PIPM-8.16 (1st all-time for PS runs with at least 163 mins or at least 5 games)
RAPTOR-15.29 (Top 3-5 all-time)
Predator-14.09 (Top 3-5 all-time)
AuPM-10 (maybe #1 all-time)

In comparison

04 PS Kevin Garnett
PIPM-2.42
RAPTOR-7.01
Predator (Predictive Version of RAPTOR)-7.47
AuPM-7.5

*Note AuPM might be slightly off the correct calculation, but relatively close.

I just don't believe Kawhi putting up a historically great PS performance was just due to team construction and hot shooting. It might've played a part, but I truly believe Kawhi was playing like an all-timer. And the magnitude by which he is ahead in this metrics is nothing to sniff at.

I feel more confident in Kawhi honestly.

I think there is still too much noise to the point where I think if we truly want to grasp what kind of players peak Kawhi and KG were (who we are getting for this one year run) I think it would be good perhaps examine at least one surrounding year for the perceived peak of the player (for KG 2003 and for Kawhi maybe 2016).


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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#14 » by OdomFan » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:52 pm

Definitely KG here imo.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#15 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:24 pm

Max123 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:People likely say it is too small of a sample size, but 2017 Kawhi is historically underrated and one of the greatest peaks ever. He is deserving to be in this convo. His RS play pales in comparison to 04 Garnett, but Kawhi has a history of elevating his play a lot in the PS, and 2017 was no different. 2017 PS Kawhi was the last year he was arguably a goat level perimeter defender, along with historic scoring and mediocre playmaking. I like how Kawhi fits next to other stars and how his scoring with his consistent mid-range that is impossible to take away will always keep an offense at a decent level. And the PS box-score numbers are unreal:

2017 PS Kawhi
BPM-14.2 (4th all-time)
WS/48-.314 (all-time level stuff btw)
PER-31.5

It isn't even just basic box-score metrics that overhype volume scorers that are in love with him. Impact metrics with plus-minus information love him as well.

PIPM-8.16 (1st all-time for PS runs with at least 163 mins or at least 5 games)
RAPTOR-15.29 (Top 3-5 all-time)
Predator-14.09 (Top 3-5 all-time)
AuPM-10 (maybe #1 all-time)

In comparison

04 PS Kevin Garnett
PIPM-2.42
RAPTOR-7.01
Predator (Predictive Version of RAPTOR)-7.47
AuPM-7.5

*Note AuPM might be slightly off the correct calculation, but relatively close.

I just don't believe Kawhi putting up a historically great PS performance was just due to team construction and hot shooting. It might've played a part, but I truly believe Kawhi was playing like an all-timer. And the magnitude by which he is ahead in this metrics is nothing to sniff at.

I feel more confident in Kawhi honestly.

I think there is still too much noise to the point where I think if we truly want to grasp what kind of players peak Kawhi and KG were (who we are getting for this one year run) I think it would be good perhaps examine at least one surrounding year for the perceived peak of the player (for KG 2003 and for Kawhi maybe 2016).


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Sure thing. I am still picking Kawhi. As I mentioned in my post, I think Kawhi consistently ups his game in the PS, and I believe that shows in multi-year PS metrics.

Like if we compare Kawhi to Steph for PS play

Kawhi peaks higher than Steph in the PS in:
Multi-Year PIPM
Multi-Year LEBRON
Multi-Year BPM 2.0
2 versions of PS RAPM
Multi-Year RAPTOR

Opinions around Steph in the PS vary greatly here, but that is just an example of his dominance.

From 01-19 (which encompasses almost all of KG's prime and his decline, though KG had high PS plus-miuns in Boston), Kawhi has the 3rd highest PS PIPM in that span, behind only Draymond and Lebron.

There is many sources out there that suggest Kawhi is more impactful in the PS.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#16 » by Max123 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:59 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Max123 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:People likely say it is too small of a sample size, but 2017 Kawhi is historically underrated and one of the greatest peaks ever. He is deserving to be in this convo. His RS play pales in comparison to 04 Garnett, but Kawhi has a history of elevating his play a lot in the PS, and 2017 was no different. 2017 PS Kawhi was the last year he was arguably a goat level perimeter defender, along with historic scoring and mediocre playmaking. I like how Kawhi fits next to other stars and how his scoring with his consistent mid-range that is impossible to take away will always keep an offense at a decent level. And the PS box-score numbers are unreal:

2017 PS Kawhi
BPM-14.2 (4th all-time)
WS/48-.314 (all-time level stuff btw)
PER-31.5

It isn't even just basic box-score metrics that overhype volume scorers that are in love with him. Impact metrics with plus-minus information love him as well.

PIPM-8.16 (1st all-time for PS runs with at least 163 mins or at least 5 games)
RAPTOR-15.29 (Top 3-5 all-time)
Predator-14.09 (Top 3-5 all-time)
AuPM-10 (maybe #1 all-time)

In comparison

04 PS Kevin Garnett
PIPM-2.42
RAPTOR-7.01
Predator (Predictive Version of RAPTOR)-7.47
AuPM-7.5

*Note AuPM might be slightly off the correct calculation, but relatively close.

I just don't believe Kawhi putting up a historically great PS performance was just due to team construction and hot shooting. It might've played a part, but I truly believe Kawhi was playing like an all-timer. And the magnitude by which he is ahead in this metrics is nothing to sniff at.

I feel more confident in Kawhi honestly.

I think there is still too much noise to the point where I think if we truly want to grasp what kind of players peak Kawhi and KG were (who we are getting for this one year run) I think it would be good perhaps examine at least one surrounding year for the perceived peak of the player (for KG 2003 and for Kawhi maybe 2016).


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Sure thing. I am still picking Kawhi. As I mentioned in my post, I think Kawhi consistently ups his game in the PS, and I believe that shows in multi-year PS metrics.

Like if we compare Kawhi to Steph for PS play

Kawhi peaks higher than Steph in the PS in:
Multi-Year PIPM
Multi-Year LEBRON
Multi-Year BPM 2.0
2 versions of PS RAPM
Multi-Year RAPTOR

Opinions around Steph in the PS vary greatly here, but that is just an example of his dominance.

From 01-19 (which encompasses almost all of KG's prime and his decline, though KG had high PS plus-miuns in Boston), Kawhi has the 3rd highest PS PIPM in that span, behind only Draymond and Lebron.

There is many sources out there that suggest Kawhi is more impactful in the PS.

Do you have KG’s numbers in ’08? Can you plug a site for these playoff metrics?


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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#17 » by No-more-rings » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:58 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:People likely say it is too small of a sample size, but 2017 Kawhi is historically underrated and one of the greatest peaks ever. He is deserving to be in this convo. His RS play pales in comparison to 04 Garnett, but Kawhi has a history of elevating his play a lot in the PS, and 2017 was no different. 2017 PS Kawhi was the last year he was arguably a goat level perimeter defender, along with historic scoring and mediocre playmaking. I like how Kawhi fits next to other stars and how his scoring with his consistent mid-range that is impossible to take away will always keep an offense at a decent level. And the PS box-score numbers are unreal:

2017 PS Kawhi
BPM-14.2 (4th all-time)
WS/48-.314 (all-time level stuff btw)
PER-31.5

It isn't even just basic box-score metrics that overhype volume scorers that are in love with him. Impact metrics with plus-minus information love him as well.

PIPM-8.16 (1st all-time for PS runs with at least 163 mins or at least 5 games)
RAPTOR-15.29 (Top 3-5 all-time)
Predator-14.09 (Top 3-5 all-time)
AuPM-10 (maybe #1 all-time)

In comparison

04 PS Kevin Garnett
PIPM-2.42
RAPTOR-7.01
Predator (Predictive Version of RAPTOR)-7.47
AuPM-7.5

*Note AuPM might be slightly off the correct calculation, but relatively close.

I just don't believe Kawhi putting up a historically great PS performance was just due to team construction and hot shooting. It might've played a part, but I truly believe Kawhi was playing like an all-timer. And the magnitude by which he is ahead in this metrics is nothing to sniff at.

I feel more confident in Kawhi honestly.

You’re also ignoring that those postseason numbers are heavily skewed by his first round series, Tony Allen was out and they had no one who could remotely check Kawhi. His series against Houston was good but nowhere near the same level. He dominated game 1 against Golden State but whether or not he would’ve kept that up is purely speculation.

Calling it some goat level type peak because of one outlier series is a stretch too much for me.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#18 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:22 am

Max123 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Max123 wrote:I think there is still too much noise to the point where I think if we truly want to grasp what kind of players peak Kawhi and KG were (who we are getting for this one year run) I think it would be good perhaps examine at least one surrounding year for the perceived peak of the player (for KG 2003 and for Kawhi maybe 2016).


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Sure thing. I am still picking Kawhi. As I mentioned in my post, I think Kawhi consistently ups his game in the PS, and I believe that shows in multi-year PS metrics.

Like if we compare Kawhi to Steph for PS play

Kawhi peaks higher than Steph in the PS in:
Multi-Year PIPM
Multi-Year LEBRON
Multi-Year BPM 2.0
2 versions of PS RAPM
Multi-Year RAPTOR

Opinions around Steph in the PS vary greatly here, but that is just an example of his dominance.

From 01-19 (which encompasses almost all of KG's prime and his decline, though KG had high PS plus-miuns in Boston), Kawhi has the 3rd highest PS PIPM in that span, behind only Draymond and Lebron.

There is many sources out there that suggest Kawhi is more impactful in the PS.

Do you have KG’s numbers in ’08? Can you plug a site for these playoff metrics?


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Single Year PS PIPM up until 18 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13pGq-utIRXi7trNXPjVas6qw7wFnTDHfJX-fVvbHv8Y/edit#gid=90945325

18-20 PS playoff LEBRON data (all that is available) https://www.bball-index.com/playoff-lebron-database/

RAPTOR and Predator that goes up to 19 I believe https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDJeA-98k9_3UlOriCT5_Mq8KG_2kbavK4mMUaqqU5E/edit#gid=1947464433

I can't find the mutliple versions of PS RAPM at the moment unfortunately. And the multi-year PS PIPM tool sadly is no longer available as Mr. Goldstein was hired, but I definitely took notes of some of his results before it was deleted. You might be able to go back through his twitter and get some more PS results that Jacob Goldstein has posted for the public.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#19 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:28 am

No-more-rings wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:People likely say it is too small of a sample size, but 2017 Kawhi is historically underrated and one of the greatest peaks ever. He is deserving to be in this convo. His RS play pales in comparison to 04 Garnett, but Kawhi has a history of elevating his play a lot in the PS, and 2017 was no different. 2017 PS Kawhi was the last year he was arguably a goat level perimeter defender, along with historic scoring and mediocre playmaking. I like how Kawhi fits next to other stars and how his scoring with his consistent mid-range that is impossible to take away will always keep an offense at a decent level. And the PS box-score numbers are unreal:

2017 PS Kawhi
BPM-14.2 (4th all-time)
WS/48-.314 (all-time level stuff btw)
PER-31.5

It isn't even just basic box-score metrics that overhype volume scorers that are in love with him. Impact metrics with plus-minus information love him as well.

PIPM-8.16 (1st all-time for PS runs with at least 163 mins or at least 5 games)
RAPTOR-15.29 (Top 3-5 all-time)
Predator-14.09 (Top 3-5 all-time)
AuPM-10 (maybe #1 all-time)

In comparison

04 PS Kevin Garnett
PIPM-2.42
RAPTOR-7.01
Predator (Predictive Version of RAPTOR)-7.47
AuPM-7.5

*Note AuPM might be slightly off the correct calculation, but relatively close.

I just don't believe Kawhi putting up a historically great PS performance was just due to team construction and hot shooting. It might've played a part, but I truly believe Kawhi was playing like an all-timer. And the magnitude by which he is ahead in this metrics is nothing to sniff at.

I feel more confident in Kawhi honestly.

You’re also ignoring that those postseason numbers are heavily skewed by his first round series, Tony Allen was out and they had no one who could remotely check Kawhi. His series against Houston was good but nowhere near the same level. He dominated game 1 against Golden State but whether or not he would’ve kept that up is purely speculation.

Calling it some goat level type peak because of one outlier series is a stretch too much for me.


In another post, I talk about how Kawhi has a trend of raising his game in the PS, coming out more impressive in multi-year PS playoff metrics than Stephen curry. And I dond't think it's a GOAT Peak, but I do think it is historically underrated, and furthermore, he has consistently come out more impressive in multiple season runs than KG. I'm not crazy high on KG either and am very much a skeptic relative to some here.
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Re: One year run, peak Kawhi or peak KG 

Post#20 » by Max123 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:53 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Max123 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Sure thing. I am still picking Kawhi. As I mentioned in my post, I think Kawhi consistently ups his game in the PS, and I believe that shows in multi-year PS metrics.

Like if we compare Kawhi to Steph for PS play

Kawhi peaks higher than Steph in the PS in:
Multi-Year PIPM
Multi-Year LEBRON
Multi-Year BPM 2.0
2 versions of PS RAPM
Multi-Year RAPTOR

Opinions around Steph in the PS vary greatly here, but that is just an example of his dominance.

From 01-19 (which encompasses almost all of KG's prime and his decline, though KG had high PS plus-miuns in Boston), Kawhi has the 3rd highest PS PIPM in that span, behind only Draymond and Lebron.

There is many sources out there that suggest Kawhi is more impactful in the PS.

Do you have KG’s numbers in ’08? Can you plug a site for these playoff metrics?


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Single Year PS PIPM up until 18 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13pGq-utIRXi7trNXPjVas6qw7wFnTDHfJX-fVvbHv8Y/edit#gid=90945325

18-20 PS playoff LEBRON data (all that is available) https://www.bball-index.com/playoff-lebron-database/

RAPTOR and Predator that goes up to 19 I believe https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDJeA-98k9_3UlOriCT5_Mq8KG_2kbavK4mMUaqqU5E/edit#gid=1947464433

I can't find the mutliple versions of PS RAPM at the moment unfortunately. And the multi-year PS PIPM tool sadly is no longer available as Mr. Goldstein was hired, but I definitely took notes of some of his results before it was deleted. You might be able to go back through his twitter and get some more PS results that Jacob Goldstein has posted for the public.

Thank you


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