Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five

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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#41 » by DCasey91 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:28 am

PG - Stockton
SG - MJ
SF - Leonard (Spurs DPOY Version)
PF - Bird
C - Hakeem

Version 2.0

PG - Curry
SG - Leonard (Spurs DPOY Version)
SF - Bird
PF - James
C - Hakeem

Really like both versions. Spurs DPOY Leonard pips out Pippen by virtue of being a more efficient of-ball shooter. Both are ATG perimeter defenders of course, just with ATG playmakers I wouldn’t need Pippen’s passing/playmaking.

I’m really high on Stockton/Leonard/Hakeem/Curry build around with your best player.

They all don’t need the ball to impact the game.

Subtracted MJ for LBJ and moving places up one.

The bigger centers in a modern setting is less enticing to me (along with bad free throw %’s).
Hakeem has the best of both worlds plays otherworldly defence and isn’t a potential liability at the line.

The first version if anything lacks a bit of size in the frontcourt, so the second version has LBJ.
I think he fits there super duper well.

Bird is my linker on steroids.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#42 » by The-Power » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:28 am

Stephen Curry
Klay Thompson
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett
David Robinson

My favorite line-up, I think.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#43 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:36 am

LikeABosh wrote:How is he less ball dominant? Was Magic an off-ball player? Or do you mean he scored less and looked to facilitate more? It's not really an issue here. LeBron had a ~50% assist rate last year which is higher than Magic ever had. He's clearly capable of trading points for assists if he has a superstar teammate next to him.

As I said before, Magic played off-ball a lot in the early 1980s next to Norm Nixon. Besides, Magic is a better post player which is also an off-ball skill mostly.

About passing itself - Magic had ~50% assist rate in 1991 without any superstars next to him. He had higher assist rate in 1991 than James in 2020 by the way (49.3% vs 49.1%), so you are wrong.

And I don't even know what you mean by better shooting. Free throws? Or just his general TS?

I mean shooting - Magic didn't take threes until very late in his career because of era he played in, but he was fantastic midrange shooter and much better FT shooter. He simply had better shooting touch than James.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#44 » by DCasey91 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:42 am

What’s the consesus on Lebron playing with two traditional PF/C’s?

I just see having a LBJ/Bird off ball/on ball playmaking/scoring/cutting & shooting clinic.
I’d imagine it’d be super hard to stop because your getting a constant influx off ball/on ball absurd playmaking skills that rarely happens. And LBJ has the size to work the perimeter and frontcourt at certainly a high enough level. That 1-2 punch has insane dividends. Birds a great rebounder too

More I think about it version 2.0 is the better one it has more than enough defence with LBJ/Leonard/Hakeem core who all are super versatile.

And Curry as the gravity warper.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#45 » by Odinn21 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:59 am

If we’re down that road with “there’s only ball to play with”, I think building an offense around Magic is as sound as LeBron-ball. LeBron would give a better scoring volume and Magic’s chance to be survive without the ball for sometime is greater.

Looking at how great Kareem + an atg PG, I think that’s an overlooked possibility.

Oscar Robertson was as efficient as Stephen Curry relative to his era. He’s one of the best floor generals and the decision makers ever. He’s a true guard and what I mean by that is having a F size primary ball handler as James or Magic creates a need for a different type of adjustment.

I’d start building around Kareem and Oscar who’d do everything but disrupt their offensive output.
KG’s passing would complement so much and next to that dominant and efficient scorers, he could focus on defense as much as he’d like. Also his defensive strong suits would complement Kareem’s rim protection so well.

In a setup like this Scottie Pippen would be too good to pass up on. Decent scoring volume for a #3 or a #4 scoring option. Basically KG at SF position.

Unless the era is specified, I’d never assume 3pt shooting as a box to be checked. The starting 5 can be completed with Klay Thompson for heavy shooting + decent defense if that’s the assumption.
Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and Manu Ginobili would make sense too. I like Reggie the best.

PG: Oscar Robertson
SG: Reggie Miller (or Klay Thompson, Shane Battier)
SF: Scottie Pippen
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

No egos big enough to take away from the team. Good synergy, versatile defense and efficient as heck, goat level offense.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#46 » by Jaivl » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:02 am

Odinn21 wrote:No egos big enough to take away from the team.

I could see Oscar and Garnett screaming at each other like rabid dogs while Jabbar's chilling at the sideline. Not egoistical, but two very strong personalities.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#47 » by feyki » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:05 am

Iverson
Kobe
Jordan
Lebron
Shaq,

joke for sure.

Curry
Miller
Hondo
Dirk
Russell.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#48 » by Odinn21 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:07 am

Jaivl wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:No egos big enough to take away from the team.

I could see Oscar and Garnett screaming at each other like rabid dogs while Jabbar's chilling at the sideline. Not egoistical, but two very strong personalities.

I’ve always taken Oscar as an expressive but a direct person. You’re right that all of the players I mentioned have very strong personalities and it might be tough to be around Oscar and KG at times but I think they were smart enough to recognise the things might hurt the team and avoid them. Especially with Cap in the room.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#49 » by uberhikari » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:25 am

Steph Curry (2017)
Shane Battier (2007)
Larry Bird (1986)
LeBron James (2016)
Kevin Garnett (2004)

1. I thought about having Klay, but I just don't believe in his defense. I've never seen any empirical evidence that he's as good a defender as people think he is. Battier, on the other hand, is probably one of the most underrated defenders of all time. Between '05-'09 he has some of the most insane DRAPM numbers for a wing defender of all time. Plus, he was a pioneer in terms of defensive analytics and his BBIQ is insane.

2. Bird and James is probably one of the GOAT duo's you can have on offense. LeBron's inside gravity perfectly compliments Bird's off-ball spacing, and Bird is probably a top 3 layup/touch passer of all time. With LeBron passing out to Bird and Bird passing in to LeBron that is a passing/playmaking match made in heaven. Furthermore, Bird doesn't need to dominate the ball to have value as a passer/playmaker. Bird was not a point-forward like LeBron so they won't clash on offense.

3. LeBron and Bird also work defensively because just like Klay covers for Curry on defense, LeBron can cover for Bird on defense. Depending on the matchup either Bird or LeBron can defend the 3/4 position.

4. LeBron is the best skip passer in NBA history. So giving him Battier, Curry, and Bird will supercharge this team's 3pt shooting. I think it's pretty much unfair to pair LeBron with Curry. They will warp the geometry of the court like never before. When you combine the 3pt shooting on this team with LeBron's inside gravity it's a match made in heaven.

5. KG is the ultimate teammate willing to do whatever it takes to win. So, he'll take a lesser offensive role. Most would acknowledge that KG was never a true #1 offensive option but he was forced into that role given how terrible his Timberwolves' teammates were. When he got to Boston in '08 he was perfectly willing to take a step back on offense. By having KG take a subservient role on offense he will be truly unlocked as the most versatile defensive terror of all time. Without having to focus on offense he can put even more energy into defense. And on offense he's one of the most portable big men of all-time: he can score inside, outside, and his interior passing will also further unlock James inside.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#50 » by DCasey91 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:55 am

Yeah I just can’t go past LBJ/Bird as a 1-2 punch

Because as it is theorycrafting

They occupy the whole half court offense

Seriously how you going to manage all/offball goat lvl facilitating at all times?, pnrs galore, cutting, lobs, birds shooting thus opening Lebron big time inside game lobbing/passing to Hakeem would be easy as pie for either, it’s insane

And Curry can’t have more then three feet of space or else he pummel threes for fun of Bird/James’s play.

Defence as well fits like a glove 3/4 or 4/3 doesn’t matter.

And Leonard’s off ball shooting as very underrated super efficient from there and fits super well playing DPOY perimeter defense and can guard bigger guys too.

They both compliment each other perfectly

I had Magic/Bird but LBJ’s defense and scoring rate is too good to pass up imo.

Bird played pnr with Mchale, imagine you’ll get pnr to death for sure.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#51 » by dodongo » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:03 am

Steph
Kawhi
LeBron
Battier
AD
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#52 » by penbeast0 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:27 pm

uberhikari wrote:Steph Curry (2017)
Shane Battier (2007)
Larry Bird (1986)
LeBron James (2016)
Kevin Garnett (2004)

1. I thought about having Klay, but I just don't believe in his defense. I've never seen any empirical evidence that he's as good a defender as people think he is. Battier, on the other hand, is probably one of the most underrated defenders of all time. Between '05-'09 he has some of the most insane DRAPM numbers for a wing defender of all time. Plus, he was a pioneer in terms of defensive analytics and his BBIQ is insane.

2. Bird and James is probably one of the GOAT duo's you can have on offense. LeBron's inside gravity perfectly compliments Bird's off-ball spacing, and Bird is probably a top 3 layup/touch passer of all time. With LeBron passing out to Bird and Bird passing in to LeBron that is a passing/playmaking match made in heaven. Furthermore, Bird doesn't need to dominate the ball to have value as a passer/playmaker. Bird was not a point-forward like LeBron so they won't clash on offense.

3. LeBron and Bird also work defensively because just like Klay covers for Curry on defense, LeBron can cover for Bird on defense. Depending on the matchup either Bird or LeBron can defend the 3/4 position.

4. LeBron is the best skip passer in NBA history. So giving him Battier, Curry, and Bird will supercharge this team's 3pt shooting. I think it's pretty much unfair to pair LeBron with Curry. They will warp the geometry of the court like never before. When you combine the 3pt shooting on this team with LeBron's inside gravity it's a match made in heaven.

5. KG is the ultimate teammate willing to do whatever it takes to win. So, he'll take a lesser offensive role. Most would acknowledge that KG was never a true #1 offensive option but he was forced into that role given how terrible his Timberwolves' teammates were. When he got to Boston in '08 he was perfectly willing to take a step back on offense. By having KG take a subservient role on offense he will be truly unlocked as the most versatile defensive terror of all time. Without having to focus on offense he can put even more energy into defense. And on offense he's one of the most portable big men of all-time: he can score inside, outside, and his interior passing will also further unlock James inside.


I agree that LeBron/Larry are a perfect fit at forward as long as they have guards who can play off ball. Not sure Battier is the one you want guarding scoring points that are abusing Curry, I'd put someone like Avery Bradley/Marcus Smart there who is more of a 2/1 if you don't care about scoring (and I agree you don't need to). The main issue though is that the OP didn't specify year/playstyle and Garnett is a terrific tall, mobile 4 who can swing to the 5 or 3, but he isn't the guy I want guarding a Wilt Chamberlain/Kareem/Shaq type monster at center or, for that matter, as my primary rim defending help center.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#53 » by penbeast0 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:30 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:No egos big enough to take away from the team.

I could see Oscar and Garnett screaming at each other like rabid dogs while Jabbar's chilling at the sideline. Not egoistical, but two very strong personalities.

I’ve always taken Oscar as an expressive but a direct person. You’re right that all of the players I mentioned have very strong personalities and it might be tough to be around Oscar and KG at times but I think they were smart enough to recognise the things might hurt the team and avoid them. Especially with Cap in the room.


I think Kareem isolating himself is pretty on point; that is one of the reasons those Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes/Kareem teams had issues; he would just freeze out parts of the team because he felt himself wounded and still hurt from the anti-Muslim incidents and shooting (even though Wilkes became a Muslim as well). It took Magic's infectious personality to bring the Lakers together as a team and maximize their potential. Though Kareem and Oscar fit together magnificently in Milwaukee in 71, he isn't the guy that will step up and hold the team together.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#54 » by Odinn21 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Especially with Cap in the room.


I think Kareem isolating himself is pretty on point; that is one of the reasons those Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes/Kareem teams had issues; he would just freeze out parts of the team because he felt himself wounded and still hurt from the anti-Muslim incidents and shooting (even though Wilkes became a Muslim as well). It took Magic's infectious personality to bring the Lakers together as a team and maximize their potential. Though Kareem and Oscar fit together magnificently in Milwaukee in 71, he isn't the guy that will step up and hold the team together.

I did not say as in "Kareem would step into speak up", his very presence would be a calming factor for Oscar and KG if those two decide to go at it. Also Kareem is one of those superstars who'd take hard coaching and demand your best without getting into your face.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#55 » by obiwanginobili » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:30 pm

1) Curry
2) Kawhi
3) Lebron
4) Durant
5) Giannis/D Rob

Basically a souped up version of the 2017 Warriors hamptons 5.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#56 » by Max123 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:57 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
Jaivl wrote:I could see Oscar and Garnett screaming at each other like rabid dogs while Jabbar's chilling at the sideline. Not egoistical, but two very strong personalities.

I’ve always taken Oscar as an expressive but a direct person. You’re right that all of the players I mentioned have very strong personalities and it might be tough to be around Oscar and KG at times but I think they were smart enough to recognise the things might hurt the team and avoid them. Especially with Cap in the room.


I think Kareem isolating himself is pretty on point; that is one of the reasons those Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes/Kareem teams had issues; he would just freeze out parts of the team because he felt himself wounded and still hurt from the anti-Muslim incidents and shooting (even though Wilkes became a Muslim as well). It took Magic's infectious personality to bring the Lakers together as a team and maximize their potential. Though Kareem and Oscar fit together magnificently in Milwaukee in 71, he isn't the guy that will step up and hold the team together.

”Magic’s infectious personality”
-> Was this on purpose?


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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#57 » by giordunk » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:29 pm

Yes if you're playing regular season basketball against regular league competition then you'd be much better off filling in some of the slots with elite role players like a Shane Battier or something but if you're going up against another starting 5 that's just incredible all elite then I think you're better off with as much firepower as you can. When you watch good All-Star games (last few games with the changed format has been a good example) a team doesn't suddenly implode when you put 5 high usage guys together.

I think the easiest part of this is choosing the Center. I think Hakeem is the easy pick just because he has the least holes in his game of the elite centers and is the most complete.

Next easiest part is choosing whether or not we use Stephen Curry at point guard. Doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, but if you choose Steph that essentially means you can't choose any more players that are potential defensive liabilities. I will go with Steph because the other top point guard options have skills that can be found in the other positions.

After this it starts to get hard - Next biggest question to me is what combination of LeBron and MJ do I take or not take. If we're just talking about a game of pick up basketball where your objective is to just win the game, then I would easily take both MJ and LeBron. But if we're playing organized basketball, I can't help but think about the LeBron and Klay Thompson combo (paired with Steph). I can't think of a more threatening 1-3 than Curry/Klay/LeBron in terms of pure offensive output.

I'd probably go with Klay/LeBron at the perimeter positions.

With PF my candidates would be between Kevin Garnett or playing KD up one position. This decision is pretty much asking if you value offense or defense more. While with KD this just becomes a crazy unstoppable offense I do wonder the scary defensive potential of having KG and Hakeem defending your paint.

Final answer -

Curry/Thompson/James/Durant/Olajuwon
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#58 » by Statlanta » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:11 pm

Curry, Jordan, Pippen, Bird, Russell
East #1 Draft Picks: Fultz, Banchero, Wiggins, Cuninigham
West #1 Draft Picks: Edwards, WIlliamson, Ayton, Towns
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#59 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:31 pm

PG: Harden
SG: MJ or Kobe (whoever shaq prefers)
SF: Durant
PF: Bird
C: Shaq
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Re: Theorycrafting: Best possible all time starting five 

Post#60 » by ice9 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:00 pm

Curry
Jordan
Pippen
Garnett
Olajuwon

Arguably the best defenders ever at their positions at 2-5 spots. Lots of lateral speed, length, ability to help and switch. With KG and Hakeem providing help, MJ and Pip could roam and create havoc. Curry is still solid at the 1.

Offensively cannot be stopped. Would run the triangle or the GSW modified version since 4 of these guys can play from the post. All have enough range to keep the paint open, all can play off ball well. No LeBron/Bird/Magic level passers, but 1-4 are all still great. Garnett and Pippen take a step back from scoring and let MJ/Curry/Hakeem lead the way. Yes, light on 3 point shooting compared to modern teams, but Curry is the GOAT 3 pt shooter, and Jordan was respectable when he shot with frequency. 60%+ TS out of both backcourt players. Hakeem and MJ can always create at will if the offense gets bogged down.

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