Which is the greatest offensive duo possible?

[Doctor MJ]

So, here's the thing about why I think Jokic would be a better offensive fit with Curry than LeBron or anyone else:

Curry's at his best in a dynamic setting where decisions are quick and motion is fostered. Well, that's how Jokic-ball, works. With Jokic, Curry can have ultimate confidence that when he gets a shooting window, the ball will find him. This in addition to the marvelous scoring threat Jokic has become which will always mean defenses cheating toward Steph will get burned if they go too far.

[Cavsfansince84]

So, here's the thing about why I think Jokic would be a better offensive fit with Curry than LeBron or anyone else:

Curry's at his best in a dynamic setting where decisions are quick and motion is fostered. Well, that's how Jokic-ball, works. With Jokic, Curry can have ultimate confidence that when he gets a shooting window, the ball will find him. This in addition to the marvelous scoring threat Jokic has become which will always mean defenses cheating toward Steph will get burned if they go too far.

Ya, I was sort of leaning towards this duo myself. Given the level that Jokic has played at this year, I think the ORtg that this hypothetical team would reach if you just add average pieces around it would be the highest. It would give the most flexibility with the highest ceiling due to Curry's shooting. It would also allow Curry to not have to work too hard as a distributor.

[HeartBreakKid]

Lebron and Jordan.

Going to go a different direction here, but having two of the best scorers is pretty useful. I know people think that two ball dominant players cannot play together, but the 2018 Rockets had a better ORTG than the 2018 Warriors who were filled with shooters, off ball players and more star power.

[Goudelock]

Curry and Jokic

This is my thought as well. Crazy that we're able to watch both of them right as we speak.

I

Curry and Walton would be a great combo too, since Walton would provide more a vertical threat if they wanted to run PnR, and Walton is as good a passer as the game has seen too.

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron/Curry pick and roll would be brutal. We've already seen the budget version of that with Green/Curry create one of the greatest offense ever. So add in LeBron who can pressure the basket far better than Green attacking the 4 on 3 instead. Someone's open, probably two unless you want James making layups all game. And if you don't keep one or two close to Curry, threes will rain if LeBron has his drive cut off.

Generally you need one or two defenders to contain LeBron and one or two to contain Curry. How do you cover the other three players with one guy? You can't not help on LeBron at the rim and you're taking serious risks not having two on Curry.

[Doctor MJ]

Curry and Jokic

This is my thought as well. Crazy that we're able to watch both of them right as we speak.

I

Curry and Walton would be a great combo too, since Walton would provide more a vertical threat if they wanted to run PnR, and Walton is as good a passer as the game has seen too.

I'm a big Walton fan but I'd have to disagree with the assessment that Walton was on Jokic's level as a passer. Walton was the best big man passer in NBA history, but he's now been surpassed. Add on top of that that Jokic is a much better scorer, ball handler, and is infinitely more resilient physically.

As I say all of that, defense is a thing too, and there Walton far exceeds Jokic.

[70sFan]

So another thread where Magic's offense and portability is getting underrated...

[kendogg]

Jordan and Shaq

[migya]

Jordan and Olajuwon

Purely offense? Hakeem was a fine offensive player but not greatly efficient nor a great passer. If I'm ignoring defense and health, Curry and Jokic seems a great combination.

Olajuwon was quite efficient, shooting better than 50fg% and around 75ft%.

[penbeast0]

Jordan and Olajuwon

Purely offense? Hakeem was a fine offensive player but not greatly efficient nor a great passer. If I'm ignoring defense and health, Curry and Jokic seems a great combination.

Olajuwon was quite efficient, shooting better than 50fg% and around 75ft%.

You are talking about creating the greatest offensive duo of all time, not whether he was a very good offensive player. Let's look at Hakeem's efficiency v. the other bigs people are posting here: Shaq, Jokic, Dirk.

Hakeem .553ts%, 103ts+, 12.1ast%, 13.1to%
Shaq .586ts%, 111ts+, 13.9ast%, 11.9to% (and that's with more bad years at the end of his career)
Jokic .611ts%, 109ts+, 32.2ast%, 14.8to% (in an easier offensive era but may not have hit peak yet)
Dirk .577ts%, 108ts+, 12.6ast%, 8.4ts%

Hakeem spreads the floor more then Shaq, but less than Jokic or Dirk. As you can see, Hakeem is above league average of course, but clearly the worst in both ts% and ts+ (which attempts to add a volume element). He's also the lowest in assist rate but the second highest in turnover rate (to Jokic who gets more than 2.5 times as many assists). He's just not in the class of offensive player despite being arguably one of the top 10 overall players of all time.

[migya]

Purely offense? Hakeem was a fine offensive player but not greatly efficient nor a great passer. If I'm ignoring defense and health, Curry and Jokic seems a great combination.

Olajuwon was quite efficient, shooting better than 50fg% and around 75ft%.

You are talking about creating the greatest offensive duo of all time, not whether he was a very good offensive player. Let's look at Hakeem's efficiency v. the other bigs people are posting here: Shaq, Jokic, Dirk.

Hakeem .553ts%, 103ts+, 12.1ast%, 13.1to%
Shaq .586ts%, 111ts+, 13.9ast%, 11.9to% (and that's with more bad years at the end of his career)
Jokic .611ts%, 109ts+, 32.2ast%, 14.8to% (in an easier offensive era but may not have hit peak yet)
Dirk .577ts%, 108ts+, 12.6ast%, 8.4ts%

Hakeem spreads the floor more then Shaq, but less than Jokic or Dirk. As you can see, Hakeem is above league average of course, but clearly the worst in both ts% and ts+ (which attempts to add a volume element). He's also the lowest in assist rate but the second highest in turnover rate (to Jokic who gets more than 2.5 times as many assists). He's just not in the class of offensive player despite being arguably one of the top 10 overall players of all time.

Look at the situation. Olajuwon had untalented teams and in his peak, was in arguably the least scoring, defensive geared era. Put any of the players you listed in his place and their numbers are far worse.

Olajuwon was more versatile offensively and unguardable than all those guys. Jokic hasn't had the great bigs to go against and defending him like Olajuwon did. Nowitzki was mostly a shooter and couldn't create for all his team mates like Olajuwon did, particularly closer to the basket.

[70sFan]

I love Hakeem as much as anyone, but he's not even top 5 offensive bigman ever - let alone player. I'd take Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley and Jokic over him clearly if we exclude defense and then we have others like Wilt, Moses and Duncan.

[migya]

I love Hakeem as much as anyone, but he's not even top 5 offensive bigman ever - let alone player. I'd take Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley and Jokic over him clearly if we exclude defense and then we have others like Wilt, Moses and Duncan.

Watch the games, particularly from 1994 and 1995 of Olajuwon, he had it all for a big man that a team is built around. In the current soft era the defense can't do squat but in proper basketball like in the 1990s a big like Jokic would become a jump shooter.

[70sFan]

I love Hakeem as much as anyone, but he's not even top 5 offensive bigman ever - let alone player. I'd take Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley and Jokic over him clearly if we exclude defense and then we have others like Wilt, Moses and Duncan.

Watch the games, particularly from 1994 and 1995 of Olajuwon, he had it all for a big man that a team is built around. In the current soft era the defense can't do squat but in proper basketball like in the 1990s a big like Jokic would become a jump shooter.

I've been watching Hakeem's games from 1993 and 1994 for two months, I've been trakcing his shot chart data and defensive tendencies for a long time. I have around 10 games left and I'll publish here my notes.

Hakeem was amazing shot maker and very versatile scorer, but he had quite a few flaws on offense. His passing was nothing special, he consistently missed easy passes. Rudy created a system built around Hakeem's isolation scoring and he made the spacing around him much better than anything we've seen before. Hakeem wasn't also dominant inside scorer - he relied heavily on turnaround jumpshot (around 55% of his post shots were fadeaways, which made him resiliant but not highly efficient). He also had very strong tendency to occupy left block - around 75% of his post touches came from the left side. Despite having fantastic and versatile skillset, Hakeem was quite one-dimensional as an offensive player compared to other ATG bigs.

[Odinn21]

I've been watching Hakeem's games from 1993 and 1994 for two months, I've been trakcing his shot chart data and defensive tendencies for a long time. I have around 10 games left and I'll publish here my notes.

Hakeem was amazing shot maker and very versatile scorer, but he had quite a few flaws on offense. His passing was nothing special, he consistently missed easy passes. Rudy created a system built around Hakeem's isolation scoring and he made the spacing around him much better than anything we've seen before. Hakeem wasn't also dominant inside scorer - he relied heavily on turnaround jumpshot (around 55% of his post shots were fadeaways, which made him resiliant but not highly efficient). He also had very strong tendency to occupy left block - around 75% of his post touches came from the left side. Despite having fantastic and versatile skillset, Hakeem was quite one-dimensional as an offensive player compared to other ATG bigs.

I'm looking forward to see your notes.

One of the things I tracked for Olajuwon from 1993 to 1995 was, the Rockets playbook on offense. If the play the Rockets wanted to run was blocked and the shooters were not in their exact positions with exact timings, ie either they reached their designation too late or they were simply forced out of position by at least half a meter, Olajuwon's decision making (bad pass, bad shot, turnovers) was off by nearly 80% of the time (77.9% to be exact according my notes when I tracked those games).

[70sFan]

I've been watching Hakeem's games from 1993 and 1994 for two months, I've been trakcing his shot chart data and defensive tendencies for a long time. I have around 10 games left and I'll publish here my notes.

Hakeem was amazing shot maker and very versatile scorer, but he had quite a few flaws on offense. His passing was nothing special, he consistently missed easy passes. Rudy created a system built around Hakeem's isolation scoring and he made the spacing around him much better than anything we've seen before. Hakeem wasn't also dominant inside scorer - he relied heavily on turnaround jumpshot (around 55% of his post shots were fadeaways, which made him resiliant but not highly efficient). He also had very strong tendency to occupy left block - around 75% of his post touches came from the left side. Despite having fantastic and versatile skillset, Hakeem was quite one-dimensional as an offensive player compared to other ATG bigs.

I'm looking forward to see your notes.

One of the things I tracked for Olajuwon from 1993 to 1995 was, the Rockets playbook on offense. If the play the Rockets wanted to run was blocked and the shooters were not in their exact positions with exact timings, ie either they reached their designation too late or they were simply forced out of position by at least half a meter, Olajuwon's decision making (bad pass, bad shot, turnovers) was off by nearly 80% of the time (77.9% to be exact according my notes when I tracked those games).

It's true, Hakeem wasn't the type of player who could make quality play out of nothing. He could turn broken plays into point due to his ability to take and make contested shots, but it wasn't efficient enough on those plays. He also dealt with double teams far worse when his teammates weren't set in certain spots. I also don't like that he often tried to make the move before realizing that someone is open.

Of course he wasn't terrible passer, he could make some nice drop offs when the defense reacted to his move. His handles also helped him, even though he wasn't versatile dribbler he could create off the dribble.

In pararell, I've been tracking 1982 and 1983 Moses games as well and sometimes I wonder how big of a difference between their passing ability was caused by system and spacing. Malone was less willing passer than Hakeem, but he could make some passes Hakeem didn't usually make. Malone also played with horrible spacing - even in Philly the only long midrange shooters on that team were Toney and Richardson (Cheeks expanded his range later). I can't tell what's the bigger difference - lack of spacing or lack of willlingness, but Moses under Rudy T could look much different than he did.

[Laimbeer]

Mike and LeBron. Two GOAT level perimeter threats who can do everything. And I'd want Mike's unparalleled closing ability.

[Pelly24]

ill say no team is beating lebron and mj on the same team, but maybe Jokic and Steph for this one

[NbaAllDay]

Just like to point out how many people are picking Curry as one of their duo (rightly so) yet the fella still gets memed a lot more than he should.

[migya]

I love Hakeem as much as anyone, but he's not even top 5 offensive bigman ever - let alone player. I'd take Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley and Jokic over him clearly if we exclude defense and then we have others like Wilt, Moses and Duncan.

Watch the games, particularly from 1994 and 1995 of Olajuwon, he had it all for a big man that a team is built around. In the current soft era the defense can't do squat but in proper basketball like in the 1990s a big like Jokic would become a jump shooter.

I've been watching Hakeem's games from 1993 and 1994 for two months, I've been trakcing his shot chart data and defensive tendencies for a long time. I have around 10 games left and I'll publish here my notes.

Hakeem was amazing shot maker and very versatile scorer, but he had quite a few flaws on offense. His passing was nothing special, he consistently missed easy passes. Rudy created a system built around Hakeem's isolation scoring and he made the spacing around him much better than anything we've seen before. Hakeem wasn't also dominant inside scorer - he relied heavily on turnaround jumpshot (around 55% of his post shots were fadeaways, which made him resiliant but not highly efficient). He also had very strong tendency to occupy left block - around 75% of his post touches came from the left side. Despite having fantastic and versatile skillset, Hakeem was quite one-dimensional as an offensive player compared to other ATG bigs.

Olajuwon certainly did operate on the left block more than anything else but he worked midrange alot as well and came towards the middle often also. What defines Olajuwon's offensive effectiveness was in the 1994 finals where he went against one of the best defensive teams ever, the Knicks, with one of the best and strongest frontlines ever and scored 27pts a game on 50fg%. Doubt any Center in history could've done that.