What do you think would be Doctor J's all-time ranking nowadays if he had won all his finals appearances

coastalmarker99 · Post #1 » by **coastalmarker99** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:55 am

If Doctor J had won the title in 1977 1980 and 1982 against Portland and the Showtime Lakers to finish his Nba career with 4 rings and a couple of finals MVPs along with a regular-season Mvp where would you rank him all-time in your personal list?

Plus would he now become the second greatest small forward of all-time ahead of Bird if you include his ABA career along with his NBA career in which he now dominated all-time great teams and legends such as Kareem and Walton head to head in the finals

HeartBreakKid · Post #2 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:15 am

The perception would be he is the GOAT sf, GOAT candidate and it would not change until James came along, and people would still be skepitcal if James surpassed him.

Winning does a lot for your legacy, especially when you're already a mega popular player like Doc J. There would have been Jordan vs Dr.J comparisons for much longer than there were in real life - basically until Jordan's comeback in 96.

4 rings and MVPs is a big deal, and it would also validate his ABA career, where in real life him not winning a ring as the guy confirmed to people that what he did in the ABA did not matter. His two ABA rings and 3 MVPs are aces up his sleeve in a basketball argument.

So yeah, it would have made a big difference in where he is ranked in a general sense. Many would assume he is better than Kareem if he had won 4 titles (6 including ABA), and Kareem is a GOAT candidate.

Owly · Post #3 » by **Owly** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:44 am

Mainstream perception: He joins the "pantheon".

Me: Does he play any different? e.g. (one possibility for upside) Does he defend Bobby Gross any better in '77?

If not then I hope and believe I rate him the same.

Post #4 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:18 pm

I would look at how he won those titles but as I always look for the effect of players on titles, I (unlike Owly) would probably give him more credit for things like "gravity" or "leadership" and he would slide up from the 10-15 area easily into the top 10. Remember that we added a couple of FMVP awards as well.

The effect on Kareem is interesting. He wins only 1 title as the primary player on Milwaukee and only wins in 85-88 as a not that great secondary talent to Magic in LA. I think he gets the same type of analysis that Wilt does as someone who it is tough to built a winner around unless his offense is relegated to a secondary role.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #5 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:44 pm

It would be huge because not only does it give him 4(6) rings total but it totally changes who is perceived as the dominant player of the late 70's & early 80's. Instead of Magic/Bird it would be all about Dr. J until the mid 80's, who would have 3 wins over both Magic and Kareem. So ya, I think he basically would probably supplant both Magic and Bird in most people's all time rankings or be right there with them. Somewhere in the 5-10 range in most people's rankings. This is also assuming that his own numbers in those playoffs would be even better. It's a lot like asking what if Bill Russell only won 2 rings. There's no way people would have him in their top 4 imo. There is an implied impact when guys win a lot of rings.

Johnlac1 · Post #6 » by **Johnlac1** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:52 pm

What is usually ignored is that Erving won two titles in the ABA. The ABA is usually automatically dismissed as not being worthy to NBA accomplishments, but the average ABA player was not far behind the NBA player.
That was proved when after merger a number of star ABA player's stats in their first NBA season were almost duplicates of their last ABA season.
If Erving had been allowed to play with Maravich and Hudson with the Atlanta Hawks, it's very possible they could have challenged Boston, New York, and Baltimore for EC dominance.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #7 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 pm

Johnlac1 wrote:What is usually ignored is that Erving won two titles in the ABA. The ABA is usually automatically dismissed as not being worthy to NBA accomplishments, but the average ABA player was not far behind the NBA player.
That was proved when after merger a number of star ABA player's stats in their first NBA season were almost duplicates of their last ABA season.
If Erving had been allowed to play with Maravich and Hudson with the Atlanta Hawks, it's very possible they could have challenged Boston, New York, and Baltimore for EC dominance.

I'm not so sure it has to do with the perception of lack of competition so much as its just a continuity thing. Much like how most nfl fans don't count afl titles. It's just easier to only count nba titles imo.