How good do you think a young Oscar alongside a older Kareem duo would be

[coastalmarker99]

In this what-if, a young Oscar gets an older Kareem as Magic did on his royals teams.


Is that enough to win multiple titles throughout the 1960s as Magic did with Kareem in the 1980s?

Or do the Royals still the same fate of losing to the Celtics in the playoffs almost every single year?


On another note 1980, Kareem alongside a rookie Oscar would be interesting to see as a rookie Oscar is a far better player to support 1980 Kareem in the playoffs than a rookie Magic.

[coastalmarker99]

I would be interested in how 1980's Kareem would handle Russell in all honestly I think he would embarrass him as the only player that could be a serious worry for an older Kareem is Wilt and Nate as they seemed to match up really well with him but even then he averaged 34-18 on 46% vs a Wilt that was only focused on defence in the 1972 WCF.



Plus Kareem from 1980 to 1986 did show that he still had a lot of gas left in the tank as he was still a great half-court playoff scorer up to the 1985 finals in which he won the finals Mvp against a goat frontcourt at the age of 38.

[TrueLAfan]

Well, just for s___ and giggles, let’s break it down. Let’s give Oscar’s nine seasons pre-Kareem the older Cap—1979-87 (seasons 10-18). So the 1961 Royals get 1979 Kareem, etc.

This is interesting to me because Oscar was … difficult as a teammate. He had a lot of the hard edges of Jordan; imagine that on a team that isn’t competing for titles regularly. As I’ve said earlier, I think Kareem was the first great teammate he had that pushed himself close to as much has Oscar did. In this sense, it’s reverse mentorship; would Kareem be a mentor/help to young Oscar?

1961. I think the 1979 Kareem—who was a terrific player—would elevate the Royals big time. This teams lacked interior scoring and defense; Wayne Embry was okay without the ball—but he was a mediocre shooter and rebounder and a poor passer. Kareem excelled in both. The positional upgrade would be huge; I also think Kareem’s passing would help out Twyman (the team’s other star) and Oscar and even Bucky Bockhorn. I can see the Royals picking up at least 10 games, maybe 15. Let’s put them at 47-22—a 14 game improvement, and second in the West. They’d be too much for Lakers in the Western semis, which would pit them against the near-peak Hawks. Interesting series; it’s Pettit and Hagan vs. Oscar and Twyman, and I think the St. Louis duo might statistically win out. And the Hawks have a better bench. But it’s Kareem against Lovelette—and although Clyde was type of center Kareem allegedly had “trouble” with (big, physical, dirty players)—this is 1979 Kareem, not 1971 Kareem. I think Kareem would dust him off, enough to make the difference. Royals in 7 over the Hawks. Tough series.

The Celtics would be tougher. Russell held Embry to 12 and 8 during the season—the Celtics were 7-3 in their ten meetings. I have to think that Kareem would be enough to win back two of those games; they’re at 50-50 now. Is being as good enough in the RS good enough to take the seasoned Celtics in the playoffs? I’d say, at this point, no. Too much for the Royals. Too much depth on Celtics. Kareem would have a fine playoffs; playing 40 mpg (he averaged 46 in the actual 1979 playoffs), I have him getting around 32 and 19 and maybe 6 blocks a game. But he’d work hard for it, shoot around 53% (under his average), and Russell’s quickness and length would make the passing lanes hard to use. I’d say Celtics in 7. This time.

[TrueLAfan]

1962. Good team made better. This was probably Embry’s best year. but it was Kareem’s last great year. Bob Boozer was a great swing forward. Twyman was All-NBA second team. Oscar was better in his second year. Switching Kareem for Embry moves them from 43-37 to 54-26, and they win the West by two games. The conference finals pits them against the double barreled shotgun of West and Baylor and the Lakers. But the Royals would be too much. Twyman can’t contain Baylor. Oscar had a middling playoff year (by his high standards) and would be matched, at least, by West in the logo’s first great year. The Lakers bench is better. But the Lakers lack power where they need it—in the post. Kareem would tear through Jim Krebs and Ray Felix like paper; he’d have a 37-25 series. Too much. Royals in 6.

The Celtics. Again. And this is absolute peak Russell; maybe his best year, overall. Over 22 and 26 in the playoffs this year—but not with Kareem on him. Kareem is the second best defensive C in the league; he’ll hold Russell to his season averages of 19 and 23. Similarly, Kareem’s playoff numbers fall back to what he averaged in 37 mpg during the season—33 and 18. And Kareem only shoots 55% from the field; a far cry from his 60% regular season. Still, Kareem is a dominant force. Oscar is great, if inconsistent. Twyman is injured and slowed, but Boozer steps up big time (he averaged 18 and 10.5 in the actual 1961 post season) and plays Heinsohn to a draw. Bockhorn and Smith are solid. Suddenly the in-their-prime Celtics look vulnerable. The Royals split in Boston, bot Boston gets the game back in a tight game 4 win. Which bings us to Game 5.

Game 5 seesaws back in forth. But in the middle of the third quarter, Kareem blocks a shot by Heinsohn, gets a skyhook on the other end, and pushes Russell out of the key so Bill misses shot to beat the 24. Going the other way, Kareem hits Oscar in the corner for a jumper—and Boozer steals the inbound pass, and slams it in. The Royals are up by 8 with 4 minutes to go. The Celtics are reeling a little bit. But Russell sets up on the high post to deliver the ball to someone. Kareem is in his crouch, extended, playing great D. Russell has to throw it to Sam Jones, who is more than 25 feet out. Jones has to put up a jumper. Kareem wheels for a rebound; Russell bolts inside, ducking under Cap’s outstretched arm, all quickness and instinct. And Kareem steps on Heinsohn’s foot. He rolls his ankle. It’s a bad sprain.

Play stops. The Royals help Kareem to the bench. He can’t put any weight on his foot. Russell comes over and says something apologetic. Kareem nods stiffly, in pain. He is helped to the locker room.

The Royals try to keep up. Oscar drills another jumper, and keeps forcing double teams. but Twyman is slowed. Boozer is energetic, but with Hub Reed in the post, there’s no other strength or skill down low. The Celtics come there in waves. Heinsohn. Russell. Heinsohn again; there’s no backstop for Boozer, who has to try and overplay to keep the ball from him. The Celtics catch the Royals a minute into the fourth, and build it to three in the next minute.

And Kareem comes back on the court. He’s limping. In the locker room, the trainer had told him he couldn’t play. Kareem shrugs him off and asks to be taped tight. Tighter. He is stiff, but moving. He comes back onto the court, and the Royals offense and, more importantly, defense revives. He blocks a shot by Heinsohn, and tips a lazy pass by Satch Sanders. But the Celtics are scrapping on D too; Sanders has shut down Twyman. KC Jones is slowing down the taller Oscar—but Oscar is still breaking through at times, often enough to make it to his season average of 30 with four minutes to go. And Kareem hangs in there. Skyhook. 15 foot jumper after a faked pass to Oscar. Assist to Boozer. The game goes back and forth.

The Royals are up by one with 80 seconds to go. Oscar brings the ball upcourt, swings to Boozer. Kareem and Russell are wrestling for position six feet from the basket. Back to Oscar. And then, a terrific pass to Kareem inside. Kareem has his back to the basket, and Satch Sanders immediately (and smartly) leaps in to swat at the ball or get a foul before Kareem can shoot. Kareem instinctively tosses the ball over his shoulder. It goes in. Three point free throw coming up.

The referees confer. No continuation basket. It’s a two shot foul. The Lakers howl in protest. Kareem silently goes to the free throw line—and hits the first free throw. And misses the second. It is a two point Royals lead with a minute to go. The Celtics bring the ball upcourt. Pass to Russell. To Heinsohn, who puts up a 18 foot jumper. Russell’s quickness is on full display—he beats the limping Kareem for the offensive rebound, and passes it out to Sam Jones. Jones is 20 feet away—perfect range for him. Bucky Bockhorn steps out and fouls him. It is a light foul; Bockhorn is furious. And Sam Jones makes two clutch free throw to tie it at 120. Charles Wolf, the Royals coach, calls a time out.

The Royals move toward the bench. Kareem strides energetically. He’s furious. Furious about missing the free throw and furious about getting beaten for the offensive rebound. Oscar tells Bockhorn to be more damn careful; the refs are going to call everything. He looks at Kareem. “You on it, Cap?”
“I’m on it.”
“Okay, then.”
Wolf barely talks. The team knows who is in charge. They know who to take their cues from.

Twyman brings the ball in to Oscar, who brings it to the frontcourt. Pass to Bockhorn—back to Oscar. And very quickly, it’s a touch pass to Kareem, who has spun around Russell. Russell is caught off guard; he did not think Kareem would try and make a quick move so late and on the injured ankle. Russell leaps desperately at him and accidentally hits Kareem in the face. Too late. Kareem slams it in, brushing at his face as he goes to the line. He makes the free throw. It is his 43rd point. He has 15 in the quarter since coming back from the locker room, and the Royals lead is three with 33 seconds to go.

The Celtics quickly bring it up. Tommy Heinsohn gets a pass only 15 feet from the hoop, and he moves toward the basket. Kareem moves swiftly over, with Russell trying to body him enough out of the way to get Heinsohn some space. Heinsohn leans into the gap and throws up 10 foot scoop shot. It’s a bad shot, and rolls off the back of the rim. Kareem and Russell wrestle, out of position for the board, which is grabbed by Oscar—his 14th rebound. Oscar fires it to Adrian Smith, who throw a long pass to a streaking Bockhorn for the basket that will ice the game. The pass is long and goes off of Bucky’s fingers. The Celtics still have life and the ball with 28 seconds left. They call a time out to get the ball at halfcourt.

Auerbach knows they need a quick basket, and throwing the ball inside with Boozer and Kareem—even a hobbled Kareem—would be a mistake. The pass and shot needs to be outside and is likely to be contested; the play is set up for Sam Jones to get it.

Cousy brings the ball in quickly. Too quickly. The Royals are ready, and the young and rangy Boozer had been playing as the rover. He jumps at Jones, who steps back to catch the pass he had not been ready for. The referee’s whistle blows. Foot on the line. Royals ball.

The Royals get it to Oscar immediately. He dribbles quickly and masterfully in the front court, avoids fouls. Passes to Adrian Smith. to Kareem, who is outside and spreading the court. Back to Smith, who is—finally—fouled with nine seconds left. Smith makes both free throws and the game is, effectively, over.

Heinsohn puts up a shot at the end of the game, and Kareem scoops it up. He finishes the game with 43 points, 22 rebounds, and 6 blocks. Oscar has a triple double—33 points, 14 assists, 14 rebounds. Russell has 17 points and 26 rebounds in the losing effort. The Royals are up 3-2. But Kareem is injured.

Well, that’s how I see Game 5 in 1962.

(Anyway, I had a little extra time today. For those that don’t recognize it, I’m mimicking Game 5 of the 1980 championship.)