Top 10 Centers of All Time

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Quotatious

mdonnelly1989
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,282
And1: 707
Joined: Aug 11, 2014
       

Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#1 » by mdonnelly1989 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:41 am

Peak + Prime + Longevity + Career

Goat Player MJ 100. Worst player of all time, 40.

#1. Kareem 98/100
#2. Bill Russell 98/100
#3. Wilt Chamberlain 98/100
#4. Shaq O'Neal 97.5/100

#5. Hakeem Olajuwon 96/100

#6. David Robinson 95/100
#7. Moses Malone 95/100

#8. Patrick Ewing 94/100
#9. George Mikan 94/100

#10. Bill Walton 93/100

Top 10 Guards of All Time viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2074931

Top 10 Forwards of All Time viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2075423
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 16,722
And1: 12,353
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:09 am

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Tim Duncan
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. David Robinson
8. Moses Malone
9. Patrick Ewing
10. Artis Gilmore

HM: George Mikan
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 23,410
And1: 5,378
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:29 am

Ignoring the numbers, Russell should be #1, he dominated defensively like no one has ever dominated at either end before or since. Kareem outside of 71 never was able to translate his undoubted individual greatness into team performance until the arrival of Magic and an incredibly stacked team, same for Wilt outside of 67. Gilmore did a lot more in the NBA than Walton, both won a title but Gilmore was a dominant big man for a decade more while Walton only had the one year. Mikan is always the wild card, you know he has to be there somewhere but the 50s were such a different version of basketball, you don't know where.

Like some, I do think Duncan is really more of a center over his career but he did play both the 4 and the 5.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
countryboy667
Senior
Posts: 612
And1: 265
Joined: Jun 07, 2015
       

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#4 » by countryboy667 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:05 pm

WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond
Dutchball97
Starter
Posts: 2,244
And1: 1,921
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#5 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:24 pm

Really not much to add as these are pretty straightforward. I do think it's pretty outrageous to have Walton over Artis Gilmore if we're supposed to take longevity into account.
User avatar
LA Bird
Veteran
Posts: 2,807
And1: 2,356
Joined: Feb 16, 2015

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#6 » by LA Bird » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:51 pm

countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I would really like to see your top 10 centers list if Ewing "doesn't begin to touch such a list", Moses isn't either, and you are "undecided" about Hakeem.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 16,722
And1: 12,353
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#7 » by 70sFan » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:07 pm

countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I'm the biggest Thurmond fan on this board, but he's not top 10 center ever. His offense simply wasn't good enough and he had durability problems. I'd definitely have him inside top 15 though.
countryboy667
Senior
Posts: 612
And1: 265
Joined: Jun 07, 2015
       

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#8 » by countryboy667 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:26 pm

70sFan wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I'm the biggest Thurmond fan on this board, but he's not top 10 center ever. His offense simply wasn't good enough and he had durability problems. I'd definitely have him inside top 15 though.



Oh, but Russell's anemic offense is? And much of Russell's success and reputation is due to his having having a stacked team. Russell was a great player, but his reputation would be much diminished if he hadn't consistently had great teammates, better than Nate was ever lucky enough to have. I stand by what I said--if I were starting a team and had a choice between Thurmond and Russell as my five, I'd pick Thurmond. Just as good defensively but better offensively.
countryboy667
Senior
Posts: 612
And1: 265
Joined: Jun 07, 2015
       

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#9 » by countryboy667 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:28 pm

countryboy667 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I'm the biggest Thurmond fan on this board, but he's not top 10 center ever. His offense simply wasn't good enough and he had durability problems. I'd definitely have him inside top 15 though.



Oh, but Russell's anemic offense is? And much of Russell's success and reputation is due to his having the support of a ridiculously stacked team. Russell was a great player, but his reputation would be much diminished if he hadn't consistently had great teammates, better teammates than Nate was ever lucky enough to have. I stand by what I said--if I were starting a team and had a choice between Thurmond and Russell as my five, I'd pick Thurmond. Just as good defensively but better offensively.
User avatar
Narigo
Starter
Posts: 2,138
And1: 559
Joined: Sep 20, 2010
     

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#10 » by Narigo » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:29 pm

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Bill Russell
6.David Robinson
7.Moses Malone
8.Patrick Ewing
9.Artis Gilmore
10.George Mikan
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF:
PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

BE: Robert Horry
BE:
BE:
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 16,722
And1: 12,353
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:43 pm

countryboy667 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I'm the biggest Thurmond fan on this board, but he's not top 10 center ever. His offense simply wasn't good enough and he had durability problems. I'd definitely have him inside top 15 though.



Oh, but Russell's anemic offense is? And much of Russell's success and reputation is due to his having having a stacked team. Russell was a great player, but his reputation would be much diminished if he hadn't consistently had great teammates, better than Nate was ever lucky enough to have. I stand by what I said--if I were starting a team and had a choice between Thurmond and Russell as my five, I'd pick Thurmond. Just as good defensively but better offensively.

Yes, because:

1. Russell was better offensive player than Thurmond. He was better passer and transition player, Russell was also clearly better postseason scorer:

1960-66 Bill Russell: 18.7 ppg on 50 TS%
1967-73 Nate Thurmond: 17.0 ppg on 45 TS%

The only advantage Thurmond has is his shooting, but given how inefficient he was it's not much anyway.

2. Russell was clearly more impactful on defense than Thurmond, it's a fact.

3. Russell had such a stacked team that they were below average offensively in all but one of Russell's seasons. He had such a stacked team that 1966 Warriors had better ORtg than 1966 Celtics. Russell's teams were better than Thurmond's because they were better defensively, not offensively.

4. Russell was much more durable than Thurmond, this is something you can't dispute.

Listen, I'm huge Thurmond fan and recently I even made a video about him:



He's not better than Bill Russell though...
coastalmarker99
Senior
Posts: 598
And1: 357
Joined: Nov 07, 2019
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#12 » by coastalmarker99 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:05 pm

1 Wilt
2 Kareem
3 Hakeem
4 Shaq
5 Russell
6 Moses Malone
7 David Robinson
8.Patrick Ewing
9.Artis Gilmore
10.George Mikan
User avatar
Jaivl
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,045
And1: 4,402
Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Location: Lugo, Spain
Contact:
   

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#13 » by Jaivl » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:55 pm

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
(Tim Duncan)
2. Bill Russell
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. David Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. Patrick Ewing
9. George Mikan
10. Artis Gilmore

HM: Mutombo

LA Bird wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I would really like to see your top 10 centers list if Ewing "doesn't begin to touch such a list", Moses isn't either, and you are "undecided" about Hakeem.

Damn, Nate Thurmond over Bill Russell and Jerry Lucas over Kevin Garnett are... two opinions, I guess.

70sFan wrote:2. Russell was clearly more impactful on defense than Thurmond, it's a fact.

Sadly it's not a "fact" because we lack data, but a very substantiated thought.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 38,618
And1: 12,777
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#14 » by Prokorov » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:39 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Peak + Prime + Longevity + Career

Goat Player MJ 100. Worst player of all time, 40.

#1. Kareem 98/100
#2. Bill Russell 98/100
#3. Wilt Chamberlain 98/100
#4. Shaq O'Neal 97.5/100

#5. Hakeem Olajuwon 96/100

#6. David Robinson 95/100
#7. Moses Malone 95/100

#8. Patrick Ewing 94/100
#9. George Mikan 94/100

#10. Bill Walton 93/100

Top 10 Guards of All Time viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2074931

Top 10 Forwards of All Time viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2075423


1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Moses
4. Wilt
5. Russell
6, Walton
7. Ewing
8. Thurmond
9, Robinson
10. Mikan
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 38,618
And1: 12,777
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#15 » by Prokorov » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:40 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Ignoring the numbers, Russell should be #1, he dominated defensively like no one has ever dominated at either end before or since. Kareem outside of 71 never was able to translate his undoubted individual greatness into team performance until the arrival of Magic and an incredibly stacked team, same for Wilt outside of 67. Gilmore did a lot more in the NBA than Walton, both won a title but Gilmore was a dominant big man for a decade more while Walton only had the one year. Mikan is always the wild card, you know he has to be there somewhere but the 50s were such a different version of basketball, you don't know where.

Like some, I do think Duncan is really more of a center over his career but he did play both the 4 and the 5.


Its hard for me to put stock in rings that were won over teams with a losing record in the finals in an era with 8 teams. And i think most of russells myth is due to his ring count. I defintely hold era against those who played pre-merger. and especially early 60s
User avatar
Outside
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 4,946
And1: 7,112
Joined: May 01, 2017
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#16 » by Outside » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:54 pm

70sFan wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I'm the biggest Thurmond fan on this board, but he's not top 10 center ever. His offense simply wasn't good enough and he had durability problems. I'd definitely have him inside top 15 though.


My avatar and I will dispute your "biggest Thurmond fan on this board" claim, unless my spotty participation disqualifies me.

But man, saying things like "I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell" hurts Thurmond in this topic more than helps him. I can make an argument for Thurmond in the top 10 centers, but ridiculous hot takes ain't the way to do it.
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 18,728
And1: 14,753
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#17 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:57 pm

countryboy667 wrote:WHERE'S THURMOND? Yet ANOTHER bogus list...I'll commit heresy here-- starting a team, I'd take Thurmond over Bill Russell. Russell was damned good, but the rings he earned were by virtue of being a member of a great stacked dynasty and that causes him to be a bit overrated individually. He was weaker in every category than Thurmond was, and Russell's greatest strength, his defense, was no better than Nate's. IMO, Ewing doesn't begin to touch such a list. Olajowon? Undecided, but IMO he has the status of being the most absurdly and grossly overrated player on the RealGM boards. Malone was good, but one of the ten best ever? C'mon....Walton? Great player, loved his game, if he'd stayed healthy would deserve being listed in top ten, but fact is he DIDN'T stay healthy long enough to deserve being listed as a top ten all time. At least unlike the forwards list, they have Duncan correctly listed...again, WHERE'S THURMOND?

https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/nate-thurmond

I dont think you thought about your list very much if you don't have Olajuwon, Malone, Ewing (and Walton I guess) on it. Considering you dislike even more modern players than them, it would be very difficult to think of 10 centers who were clearly better than those 3.

Now, I don't mean to preemptively strike the homer card, but I hope to God you're not considering Mel Daniels in your top ten.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 23,410
And1: 5,378
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#18 » by penbeast0 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:40 am

Prokorov wrote:
Its hard for me to put stock in rings that were won over teams with a losing record in the finals in an era with 8 teams. And i think most of russells myth is due to his ring count. I defintely hold era against those who played pre-merger. and especially early 60s


So, you feel that putting all the greatest basketball players on 8 teams makes wins against them more meaningless that when you spread them over 20 or so in an era of rapid expansion when there was not an equivalent expansion of the talent pool (the 70s and into the 80s for example). I disagree and hold the 60s to be stronger than the 70s most of the 80s particularly 62-67 v. 82-87 though there are more questions about 60-61 (less integrated) and 68-69 (the beginning of the expansion era).

Russell's legacy is the incredible defensive dominance of his teams over the league, I think half the top 20 all time defensive teams were Celtic teams the last time someone posted a list here. That's almost every year of Russell's career taking teams with complete turnover of personnel to the same dominance year after year after year. The winning is part of it certainly, but they were winning because of Russell. AS Owly said, these weren't upsets, they were the favorites almost every year too . . . despite being at or near the bottom of the league offensively consistently.

Despite Nate Thurmond's individual brilliance as a man defender, his teams were rarely among the league leaders defensively; at least Wilt's teams were frequently second.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 38,618
And1: 12,777
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#19 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:02 am

penbeast0 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Its hard for me to put stock in rings that were won over teams with a losing record in the finals in an era with 8 teams. And i think most of russells myth is due to his ring count. I defintely hold era against those who played pre-merger. and especially early 60s


So, you feel that putting all the greatest basketball players on 8 teams makes wins against them more meaningless that when you spread them over 20 or so in an era of rapid expansion when there was not an equivalent expansion of the talent pool (the 70s and into the 80s for example). I disagree and hold the 60s to be stronger than the 70s most of the 80s particularly 62-67 v. 82-87 though there are more questions about 60-61 (less integrated) and 68-69 (the beginning of the expansion era).

Russell's legacy is the incredible defensive dominance of his teams over the league, I think half the top 20 all time defensive teams were Celtic teams the last time someone posted a list here. That's almost every year of Russell's career taking teams with complete turnover of personnel to the same dominance year after year after year. The winning is part of it certainly, but they were winning because of Russell. AS Owly said, these weren't upsets, they were the favorites almost every year too . . . despite being at or near the bottom of the league offensively consistently.

Despite Nate Thurmond's individual brilliance as a man defender, his teams were rarely among the league leaders defensively; at least Wilt's teams were frequently second.


Yes. I think it makes them significantly less meaningless. especially when that talent is disproportionately stacked on 1 team and the talent overall was at an all-time low. They beat a terrible team in the finals. a team that likely goes like 12-70 in todays league.
SNPA
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,996
And1: 1,614
Joined: Apr 15, 2020

Re: Top 10 Centers of All Time 

Post#20 » by SNPA » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:10 am

Any list missing Duncan is invalid.

Also, repeating myself but Russell won at every level (high school/college/olympics/NBA) doing so with different teammates (including in the NBA), maybe -and hear me out here- maybe all those championships and medals have more to do with the single common denominator than anything else? Hell, he even won as the coach. All he did was win. And then win some more. The point is to win. No one has done it better. His name should always be listed first.

Return to Player Comparisons