Better supporting cast: Curry or Luka?

dcstanley · Post #1 » by **dcstanley** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:07 am

How much better is Luka's supporting cast? Is it reasonable to suggest that Luka is carrying a worse team when you consider the amount of time Porzingis has missed?

Mavs without Luka:
PG: Brunson
SG: Hardaway Jr.
SF: Richardson
PF: Porzingis
C: Kleiber

Backups: Finney-Smith, Redick, Burke, Meli, Cauley-Stein, Johnson

Warriors without Curry:
PG': Poole
SG: Wiggins
SF: Oubre
PF: Draymond
C: Looney

Backups: Lee, Wiseman, Toscano-Anderson, Bazemore, Mulder, Paschall

KobesScarf · Post #2 » by **KobesScarf** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:11 pm

Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

durantbird · Post #3 » by **durantbird** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:20 pm

KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs

oaktownwarriors87 · Post #4 » by **oaktownwarriors87** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:57 pm

KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

I'd argue that Oubre is the worst player on the team. The Warriors are actually +12.7 per 100 possessions with Curry and without Oubre. The guys a all stopper and completely kills the flow of the offense, and he plays no team defense.

Without Curry
Minutes: 1,143
Offense: 100.1
Defense: 107.2
Net: -7.1

Without Luka
Minutes: 968
Offense: 106.8
Defense: 107.6
Net: -0.8

The Warriors are only -1.7 without Curry if you also exclude Oubre. Everyone plays worse with Oubre on the floor. Same goes for Wiseman, but he's young.

Post #5 » by **Outside** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm

Oubre and Wiseman and significant net negatives. They played Wiseman because he needs playing time to improve, and they're betting that he will, though that process will be slow. With Oubre, they hoped he would eventually "get" it, but that's not happening. When both Oubre and Wiseman are out, they're a much better team.

I don't know which site is the best to use to get lineup plus/minus, but I see people consistently post net ratings that are significant net negatives with Curry + Wiseman + Oubre, Curry + Wiseman without Oubre, and Curry + Oubre without Wiseman, yet a significant net positive with Curry and no Wiseman or Oubre.

For example:

- Curry without Oubre +17.1
- Curry with Oubre -2.0
- Oubre without Curry -13.8
- Without Curry and without Oubre -6.1

I've seen numbers even worse for Wiseman. Playing Wiseman and Oubre together is a force multiplier for negative net rating. When they play Curry without Oubre and Wiseman, they're actually good. Of course, their net rating tanks when Curry goes to the bench, but even that isn't as bad if you also sit Oubre and Wiseman.

Wiggins has been good. Draymond is great at everything except scoring, but the problem is that sometimes they really need scoring. Juan Toscano-Anderson is good. Poole is sometimes good, and at least he can score. Looney fills his role well, but that doesn't include scoring.

The rest are a bunch of meh.

I don't know the Mavs. There may be similar things going on there.

KobesScarf · Post #6 » by **KobesScarf** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:12 pm

durantbird wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs

Draymond is the main culprit for why the Warriors have been so mediocre

KobesScarf · Post #7 » by **KobesScarf** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:17 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

I'd argue that Oubre is the worst player on the team. The Warriors are actually +12.7 per 100 possessions with Curry and without Oubre. The guys a all stopper and completely kills the flow of the offense, and he plays no team defense.

Without Curry
Minutes: 1,143
Offense: 100.1
Defense: 107.2
Net: -7.1

Without Luka
Minutes: 968
Offense: 106.8
Defense: 107.6
Net: -0.8

The Warriors are only -1.7 without Curry if you also exclude Oubre. Everyone plays worse with Oubre on the floor. Same goes for Wiseman, but he's young.

I mixed up the statlines I thought Oubre was the seconds leading scorer. I meant Wiggins

dygaction · Post #8 » by **dygaction** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:29 pm

KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Mavs should be better but not a lot. Luka and Curry impact the game in different ways. Curry gets teammates more open with his gravity, but he is not as effective in directing the offense to exploit best matchups as Luka is a taller and better passer.

Warriors Analyst · Post #9 » by **Warriors Analyst** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:35 pm

KobesScarf wrote:
durantbird wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs
Draymond is the main culprit for why the Warriors have been so mediocre

Your hate of Draymond really clouds your ability to make intelligent and accurate assessments about this Warriors' team. Has Draymond's offensive output been bad? Yes. We're 8-1, if I recall, when he scores merely 8 points. But the biggest issue on this team is not Draymond, but rather wildly inconsistent and below league average shooting/spacing in the supporting cast.

The Warriors are 11-1 when Steph plays AND both Wiggins and Oubre score more than their season PPG (17.9 for Wiggins, 15.4)

The Warriors are 20-10 when Steph scores over 30 points this year, that includes four games where Wiggins and Oubre BOTH scored more than their season average this year.

So combine those two and the Warriors are 26-11 in games where Steph scores 30 points OR Wiggins/Oubre score more than their season PPG.

When Steph DOESN'T score 30 and one of or both of Wiggins fails to score more than their season PPG, the Warriors are 4-20.

Colbinii · Post #10 » by **Colbinii** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:21 pm

KobesScarf wrote:
durantbird wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs
Draymond is the main culprit for why the Warriors have been so mediocre

Did you see Weisman?

Statlanta · Post #11 » by **Statlanta** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:52 pm

The difference is Luka's teammates are born and bred in their system while Oubre and Wiggins and Wiseman are not. That and the fact Dallas got playoff experience last year while the Warriors didn't makes the gap wider than it should be.

eminence · Post #12 » by **eminence** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:55 pm

Luka's cast for sure. I don't think it's all that close, though Draymond may be the third best individual player.

Post #13 » by **Texas Chuck** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:54 pm

Dallas' non-Luka players are marginally more talented imo, but the construction of the team just makes a lot more sense than this Warriors team.

Like I'd rather pair Richardson/THJ with Luka than pair Oubre/Wiggins with Steph, but talent wise that's probably a push or even a win for the Warriors.

Dallas edge really comes with DFS and Maxi. They just fill in so many gaps defensively and they can consistently make open 3's. So you can play Dorian 35 mpg and feel good and play Maxi 28 mpg and feel good.

HeartBreakKid · Post #14 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:43 am

durantbird wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs

Did you really mention Draymond to KobesScarf? Dude thinks he's a d league player.

homecourtloss · Post #15 » by **homecourtloss** » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:07 am

KobesScarf wrote:Mavs by faaaaaaaar. Besides Oubre im not sure any other Warrior even makes the Mavs rotation

Oubre’s one of their worst players.

KobesScarf wrote:
durantbird wrote:Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs
Draymond is the main culprit for why the Warriors have been so mediocre

Draymond the main culprit...smh. After all these years on here you still haven’t understood what makes Draymond valuable (even in a lesser stare as he is right now).

KobesScarf · Post #16 » by **KobesScarf** » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:30 am

Warriors Analyst wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:
durantbird wrote:Draymond does, but yeah - Mavs
Draymond is the main culprit for why the Warriors have been so mediocre

Your hate of Draymond really clouds your ability to make intelligent and accurate assessments about this Warriors' team. Has Draymond's offensive output been bad? Yes. We're 8-1, if I recall, when he scores merely 8 points. But the biggest issue on this team is not Draymond, but rather wildly inconsistent and below league average shooting/spacing in the supporting cast.

The Warriors are 11-1 when Steph plays AND both Wiggins and Oubre score more than their season PPG (17.9 for Wiggins, 15.4)

The Warriors are 20-10 when Steph scores over 30 points this year, that includes four games where Wiggins and Oubre BOTH scored more than their season average this year.

So combine those two and the Warriors are 26-11 in games where Steph scores 30 points OR Wiggins/Oubre score more than their season PPG.

When Steph DOESN'T score 30 and one of or both of Wiggins fails to score more than their season PPG, the Warriors are 4-20.

Who is the culprit for the inconsistent shooting and spacing? Its Draymond who is utterly worthless if he doesn't have the ball in his hand with some kind of set play for Curry and being that he often has zero ball pressure those are passes that almost anyone could make.

Draymond is and has always been a very poor rebounder. The Warriors poor rebounding as a whole is just as of not more responsible for the mediocre record as the inconsistent shooting/spacing