[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Bulls franchise history.

As Chicago Bulls from 1966-67 to today


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Minnesota Timberwolves
Oklahoma City Thunder
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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Spoiler:
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Doctor MJ wrote:.

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Dr Positivity wrote:.

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70sFan wrote:.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:02 pm

I will post my vote later, after seeing some discussion because I felt all over the place.
I was initially going Jordan > Gilmore > Rose > Pippen > Chet Walker. Then realized Jimmy Butler's strong seasons in Chicago. Then I got confused. I'm rather confident about Gilmore being #2 but much like the Bucks, the competition is so stiff.

Edit; There's still Bob Love, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman, too.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:07 pm

You think it's confusing now, wait for Detroit!
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#4 » by trex_8063 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:23 pm

Odinn21 wrote:I will post my vote later, after seeing some discussion because I felt all over the place.
I was initially going Jordan > Gilmore > Rose > Pippen > Chet Walker. Then realized Jimmy Butler's strong seasons in Chicago. Then I got confused. I'm rather confident about Gilmore being #2 but much like the Bucks, the competition is so stiff.


No Dave Corzine!?! For shame.... :wink:
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#5 » by Odinn21 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:26 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:I will post my vote later, after seeing some discussion because I felt all over the place.
I was initially going Jordan > Gilmore > Rose > Pippen > Chet Walker. Then realized Jimmy Butler's strong seasons in Chicago. Then I got confused. I'm rather confident about Gilmore being #2 but much like the Bucks, the competition is so stiff.


No Dave Corzine!?! For shame.... :wink:

I'm saving him for the Spurs as a dark horse. :lol:
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#6 » by prolific passer » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:43 pm

Guess I'll throw it out there
1. 88 Jordan
2. 89 Jordan
3. 91 Jordan
4. 96 Jordan
5. 90 Jordan

:P
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#7 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:18 pm

1. Michael Jordan 1991

2. Scottie Pippen 1994 - MVP contending season helping Bulls to 55 W season without Jordan

3. Jimmy Butler 2017 - His peak stats are pretty fantastic and while it was a .500 team in other seasons he proved he's a great asset to winning. I prefer this style of two way game to Rose.

4. Derrick Rose 2011 - I don't think he was the MVP this year but still an excellent volume scoring season

5. Artis Gilmore 1979 - Outstanding stats however it appears something about his laconic personality at the time turned people off and made them consider his NBA tenure a minor disappointment compared to ABA, hence relatively soft accolades. Could be sold on Noah over him.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#8 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:08 pm

1. Michael Jordan, 1990/91 - This season has a case to be MJ's best regular season and it is imo definitely his best post-season. I don't think I have to explain the pick itself.

2. Scottie Pippen, 1995/96 - Lots of great seasons to pick from. 92, 94 and 95 especially were really close but I think Pippen's 96 campaign was his strongest.

3. Derrick Rose, 2010/11 - Honestly a pretty underrated season overall on here. I don't think he was the best player that year but he was definitely in the running.

4. Artis Gilmore, 1980/81 - Despite being consistently good during his Chicago stint, the Bulls only made the play-offs twice and neither run was all that impressive. The 81 play-offs are nontheless clearly better than his 77 outing, while I see little difference in the regular season.

5. Jimmy Butler, 2016/17 - Initially had Horace here and I also seriously considered Chet Walker but Butler being the best player on the team at the time was what eventually made me include him over Grant and Walker.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#9 » by Djoker » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:16 pm

I have to think about this one. My #1 is obviously MJ. #2 is probably Scottie and then it's wide open.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#10 » by homecourtloss » Sat May 1, 2021 2:14 am

1. Jordan, 1991; GOAT peak contention so no further explanation needed.

2. Pippen, 1994; MVP contention regular season in which the Bulls played at a 58 win pace with him in the lineup. Played well in the playoffs, too, as he led a +14 rORtg series vs. the Cavs and then helped the Bulls actually outscore the Knicks over 7 games, a series they probably should have won if not for a bad call in game 5 and a game in which the Bulls couldn’t buy a call.

3. DRose, 2011; close call with Butler 2017,. Rose was the offensive engine though the -7 rDRtg defense was the real star and the Bulls played like a 55+ win team with him off court. But someone had to score and he was stronger in the playoffs than 2017 Butler.

4. Butler, 2017; excellent regular season. Offensively efficient, defensively strong. Bulls were awful with him off court.

5. Gilmore, 1981; As always, tremendous conversion efficiency, stout defense.

HM: Horace Grant, 1992
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Sat May 1, 2021 6:24 am

My votes:

1. 1990/91 Michael Jordan - clear choice, GOAT level peak. I can entertain 1990 as well.

2. 1993/94 Scottie Pippen - I'm not as high on Pippen as most, but he certainly was impressive in 1994.

3. 1976/77 Artis Gilmore - would have been over Pippen without terrible start of the season. In the second half, he played on MVP level and gave a tough time future champions in playoffs. Clearly better defensively than 1981 version, which matters the most.

4. 2010/11 Derric Rose - I'm not a fan of his game, but this season was very impressive.

5. 1991/92 Horace Grant - I was torn between Butler and Walker, but in the end I went with one of the most underrated seasons ever. Grant played perfect basketball within his role that year.

The toughest voting so far, can't wait to see other teams :)
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#12 » by Odinn21 » Sat May 1, 2021 7:40 am

I guess I'm way more critical of 1994 Pippen than most.

The Bulls won 58 games after Jordan's retirement but that was not that on Pippen. The team had a major overhaul. They brought the role players vital on the 2nd 3peat in this time. Kerr, Kukoc, Longley joined the Bulls in 1994. Also, even though he did not stick around, Pete Myers was a valuable addition to roster depth. Overall roster depth got better.

What I see without those major changes is a season like 1989 or 1990 McHale. And Pippen without Jordan in 1994 was not that different from his 1992 or 1996 self. In a situation like that, I'd expect a bigger burst.
Fwiw, in the series they got eliminated, Horace Grant was arguably better than Pippen against the Knicks while battling against tougher matchups.

---

1. 1991 Michael Jordan
Pretty obvious choice.

2. 1981 Artis Gilmore
I agree that Gilmore was better defensively in 1977 (and 1979) but there's a trade off with efficiency. Also I find 1981 season a bit more complete than the other 2.

3. 2011 Derrick Rose
Him being one of the weakest MVP winners ever made us usually overlook that he was still a monster. In terms of generating open, high value shots for his teammates, he was on the same level as prime Bryant and prime Wade.

4. 1996 Scottie Pippen
I know that this is his most inefficient scoring playoffs in Chicago but his ability to read defenses, passing and playmaking a tad better than in 1992 and 1994 which makes up for his inefficient scoring.

5. 2017 Jimmy Butler
A more efficient series against the Celtics would make me have him over Pippen, but with as it is, he's just behind.

HM; 1992 Horace Grant.
I'm really sad about Grant not making the list because in terms of #3 scoring options, this is right there at the top. And he was just immense. He brought massive impact, massive defense and he was just great.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#13 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 1, 2021 8:46 am

Artis Gilmore's turnovers in the 70s is a giant eye sore. Was he just always tunnel visioned during that period?

i'm not sure I buy Butler being worse than Rose. I suppose 2017 is not the best scoring effort in the post season, but even 2016 Butler seems better than Rose was.


Is there a real advantage 1991 Jordan has over 1990 other than the ring? Seems like Jordan's scoring was better in 1990.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#14 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 1, 2021 10:17 am

1) 1990 Michael Jordan - Bulls weren't there yet, but he seems better here than in 91.

2) 1977 Artis Gilmore - Putting Rose over Gilmore is kind of like putting Rose over Howard (though I think Howard is better than Artis). Artis just does more for a team, though his turnovers are troubling.

3) 1994 Scottie Pippen - Not sure about him vs Gilmore. I'll have to dwell on it.

4) 2017 Jimmy Butler - Better defender than Rose by a lot. Generally speaking he's just a guy who can impact the game without putting up numbers. Not sure if Rose is even a better scorer than Jimmy.

5) 1992 Horace Grant - Originally had Rose here, but the more I think about it neither guy can be the best guy on a championship team. Horace Grant seems like he would be a better supporting player than Rose, which in the grand scheme of things is what Rose should be.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#15 » by Odinn21 » Sat May 1, 2021 10:24 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:5) 1992 Horace Grant - Originally had Rose here, but the more I think about it neither guy can be the best guy on a championship team. Horace Grant seems like he would be a better supporting player than Rose, which in the grand scheme of things is what Rose should be.

That's kind of a flawed thinking though, right? Rose and Grant can not be a best player on a title winning team, however Rose was a best guy on a contending team which had CF exit.
Why are we assuming playing field is fixated to only championship winning level?..
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#16 » by LA Bird » Sat May 1, 2021 12:13 pm

1. 1991 Michael Jordan
GOAT peak

2. 1995 Scottie Pippen
3. 2017 Jimmy Butler
4. 2011 Derrick Rose

Surprised I am the first to pick 1995 for Pippen. He led the Bulls to #2 defense and +4 SRS without Grant and only one months of Jordan coming back from baseball. 2017 Butler is a pretty underrated season and got lost in the mix among one of the most loaded top end years of all time. 24/6/6 with great defense and 37% from 3 is elite all round production. DRose sometimes gets underrated around here because this board can go overboard in pushing back against guys overrated by casual fans (see also Kobe). Rose didn't deserve the MVP but he was still around top 5 and the Bulls were an elite +9.4 net with him in 11/12 before his injury.

5. 1992 Horace Grant
I thought this board would be higher on Grant. I like ABA Gilmore but he sadly seemed to have forgotten how to play defense after his first year in the NBA. It's kind of incredible how he was the starting center on subpar defenses for ten straight seasons after anchoring top defenses every year in the ABA. Gilmore had some hyper efficient shooting seasons in the 80s but when factoring in turnovers (which is more harmful than a missed shot), I don't think he is more efficient offensively overall than Grant. Per 75 possession, their offensive stats are:
81 Gilmore: 18.5 points, 2.8 offensive boards, 2.2 assists, 3.0 turnovers, 13.2 TSA
92 Grant: 15.3 points, 4.6 offensive boards, 2.9 assists, 1.3 turnovers, 12.3 TSA
That looks like a win for Grant to me and he also provided some spacing with his elite mid-range shooting which Gilmore doesn't. Defense goes to Grant too. ABA Gilmore could have gone as high as #2 but I don't see the case for NBA Gilmore being that high.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Sat May 1, 2021 1:05 pm

LA Bird wrote:1. 1991 Michael Jordan
GOAT peak

2. 1995 Scottie Pippen
3. 2017 Jimmy Butler
4. 2011 Derrick Rose

Surprised I am the first to pick 1995 for Pippen. He led the Bulls to #2 defense and +4 SRS without Grant and only one months of Jordan coming back from baseball. 2017 Butler is a pretty underrated season and got lost in the mix among one of the most loaded top end years of all time. 24/6/6 with great defense and 37% from 3 is elite all round production. DRose sometimes gets underrated around here because this board can go overboard in pushing back against guys overrated by casual fans (see also Kobe). Rose didn't deserve the MVP but he was still around top 5 and the Bulls were an elite +9.4 net with him in 11/12 before his injury.

5. 1992 Horace Grant
I thought this board would be higher on Grant. I like ABA Gilmore but he sadly seemed to have forgotten how to play defense after his first year in the NBA. It's kind of incredible how he was the starting center on subpar defenses for ten straight seasons after anchoring top defenses every year in the ABA. Gilmore had some hyper efficient shooting seasons in the 80s but when factoring in turnovers (which is more harmful than a missed shot), I don't think he is more efficient offensively overall than Grant. Per 75 possession, their offensive stats are:
81 Gilmore: 18.5 points, 2.8 offensive boards, 2.2 assists, 3.0 turnovers, 13.2 TSA
92 Grant: 15.3 points, 4.6 offensive boards, 2.9 assists, 1.3 turnovers, 12.3 TSA
That looks like a win for Grant to me and he also provided some spacing with his elite mid-range shooting which Gilmore doesn't. Defense goes to Grant too. ABA Gilmore could have gone as high as #2 but I don't see the case for NBA Gilmore being that high.

I've made a thread about Gilmore's defense some time ago:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2019747

Gilmore regressed defensively in 1979, but he wasn't the reason why Bulls were so mediorce on that end. Bulls guards were beyond terrible defensively and they play without any effort or hustle.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#18 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 1, 2021 1:20 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:5) 1992 Horace Grant - Originally had Rose here, but the more I think about it neither guy can be the best guy on a championship team. Horace Grant seems like he would be a better supporting player than Rose, which in the grand scheme of things is what Rose should be.

That's kind of a flawed thinking though, right? Rose and Grant can not be a best player on a title winning team, however Rose was a best guy on a contending team which had CF exit.
Why are we assuming playing field is fixated to only championship winning level?..

Because I believe your role on a championship team properly shows how good a player actually is. Otherwise, players are simply the best on a team because someone technically has to be.

The Bulls might have made it to the ECF but they weren't that close to the best team in the league and had no real shot of winning a title. They didn't beat any great teams on the way to the ECF, and a lot of the teams in the West would have beaten the Bulls in a series. The Bulls won most of their games because they were the #1 rated defense which Rose had little to do with.

I don't think it is inherently superior than what Grant would do with the Bulls or later when he showed his impact on a young Orlando team.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#19 » by Odinn21 » Sat May 1, 2021 2:00 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Because I believe your role on a championship team properly shows how good a player actually is. Otherwise, players are simply the best on a team because someone technically has to be.

The Bulls might have made it to the ECF but they weren't that close to the best team in the league and had no real shot of winning a title. They didn't beat any great teams on the way to the ECF, and a lot of the teams in the West would have beaten the Bulls in a series. The Bulls won most of their games because they were the #1 rated defense which Rose had little to do with.

Both of these points take out the aspect that a player's contribution to the team's baseline in potential.

Also, Rose was not a good defender, right. He was just average. He was still in the top 2% in Offensive RAPM in that season. The entire offensive scheme was dumping the ball on Rose for him to create something. Here's a comparison between 2011 Bulls and a few years back when they were #1 team on defense once again;
2007 Bulls main rotation; Ben Wallace, Nocioni, Deng, Gordon, Hinrich; Duhon, PJ Brown, Tyrus Thomas
-1.6 rORtg, 21st & -6.9 rDRtg, 1st; 4.52 SRS and +5.3 NRtg, 5th in both

2011 Bulls main rotation; Noah, Boozer, Deng, Brewer, Rose; Kurt Thomas, Gibson, Korver
+1.0 rORtg, 11th & -7.0 rDRtg, 1st; 6.53 SRS and +8.0 NRtg, 2nd in both

Both Bulls rosters were constructed similarly, their game plans were similar. And Rose provided offense of more valuable than +2 over Kirk Hinrich, not a replacement level player. Looking at those 2 rosters; 2007 Bulls without Hinrich or Gordon & 2011 Bulls without Rose, can you explain that improvement without not attributing it to Rose?

Seriously. The ball is played on both ends. Saying "the Bulls were #1 defense and the reason for it was not Rose" is just incomplete. They won that many games because Rose lifted their offense significantly. Not just because their defense was that great. The only times you'd see a team with -6 rDRtg winning around 60 games and having top 3 SRS are the times those teams being -8 or better rDRtg teams such as 1994 Knicks, 2004 Spurs or Bill Russell's Celtics.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bulls 

Post#20 » by LA Bird » Sat May 1, 2021 2:30 pm

70sFan wrote:
LA Bird wrote:5. 1992 Horace Grant
I thought this board would be higher on Grant. I like ABA Gilmore but he sadly seemed to have forgotten how to play defense after his first year in the NBA. It's kind of incredible how he was the starting center on subpar defenses for ten straight seasons after anchoring top defenses every year in the ABA. Gilmore had some hyper efficient shooting seasons in the 80s but when factoring in turnovers (which is more harmful than a missed shot), I don't think he is more efficient offensively overall than Grant. Per 75 possession, their offensive stats are:
81 Gilmore: 18.5 points, 2.8 offensive boards, 2.2 assists, 3.0 turnovers, 13.2 TSA
92 Grant: 15.3 points, 4.6 offensive boards, 2.9 assists, 1.3 turnovers, 12.3 TSA
That looks like a win for Grant to me and he also provided some spacing with his elite mid-range shooting which Gilmore doesn't. Defense goes to Grant too. ABA Gilmore could have gone as high as #2 but I don't see the case for NBA Gilmore being that high.

I've made a thread about Gilmore's defense some time ago:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2019747

Gilmore regressed defensively in 1979, but he wasn't the reason why Bulls were so mediorce on that end. Bulls guards were beyond terrible defensively and they play without any effort or hustle.

I still rate NBA Gilmore as a positive on defense despite his teams' consistently poor defensive rating but I can't rate him near his ABA level when the Colonels in comparison were very dominant defensively. For this project, I don't think being just 'good' on defense is enough in a comparison against Horace Grant. Gilmore's later size and strength can be quite useful against some matchups but in general, I think his NBA defense is a clear step down from his ABA defense.

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