[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers

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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#21 » by Odinn21 » Mon May 3, 2021 10:00 pm

It's 17 hours until the deadline and we're running a bit low. Just an FYI and heads up.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#22 » by Djoker » Mon May 3, 2021 11:09 pm

Sorry I've been a bit busy. I'll post my vote tonight.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#23 » by Djoker » Tue May 4, 2021 3:10 am

1. 2015-2016 Lebron James

The year Lebron put it all together in the Finals. I can't put pre-Heat Lebron given his playoff shortcomings. I see 2009 postseason as a fluke run given what happened in 2006-2008 and 2010-2011.

2. 2016-2017 Kyrie Irving

I think he's the second best Cavalier ever. He peaked in the 2016 and 2017 postseason albeit as a 2nd option and put up a few legendary performances including off course the historic shot... but being a 2nd option doesn't hurt him on this list because all the guys after him here couldn't ever win rings as 1st options either IMO. Kyrie's injuries held him back from more regular season accolades in 2015-2016 so I chose 2016-2017 because that was a healthy season surrounded by two great postseasons. I'm actually a bit surprised he isn't getting more love from people here.

3. 1991-1992 Mark Price

One of the best shooters ever who gets somewhat forgotten.

4. 1988-1989 Larry Nance

1st Team All-Defense and good numbers.

5. 1991-1992 Brad Daugherty

Made an all-NBA team this season. Prototypical 20/10 big who played like a true pro and no real weaknesses.

Honestly I feel very unqualified to rank players #3-#5. I barely ever watched them play.

HM: 2015-2016 Kevin Love who I'm docking because he was hurt in the playoffs.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#24 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 6:34 am

Djoker wrote:1. 2015-2016 Lebron James

The year Lebron put it all together in the Finals. I can't put pre-Heat Lebron given his playoff shortcomings. I see 2009 postseason as a fluke run given what happened in 2006-2008 and 2010-2011.

2. 2016-2017 Kyrie Irving

I think he's the second best Cavalier ever. He peaked in the 2016 and 2017 postseason albeit as a 2nd option and put up a few legendary performances including off course the historic shot... but being a 2nd option doesn't hurt him on this list because all the guys after him here couldn't ever win rings as 1st options either IMO. Kyrie's injuries held him back from more regular season accolades in 2015-2016 so I chose 2016-2017 because that was a healthy season surrounded by two great postseasons. I'm actually a bit surprised he isn't getting more love from people here.

3. 1991-1992 Mark Price

One of the best shooters ever who gets somewhat forgotten.

4. 1988-1989 Larry Nance

1st Team All-Defense and good numbers.

5. 1991-1992 Brad Daugherty

Made an all-NBA team this season. Prototypical 20/10 big who played like a true pro and no real weaknesses.

Honestly I feel very unqualified to rank players #3-#5. I barely ever watched them play.

HM: 2015-2016 Kevin Love who I'm docking because he was hurt in the playoffs.



Then why are you surprised Irving is not getting more 2nd place votes? His competition is primarily those 3 guys.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#25 » by 70sFan » Tue May 4, 2021 7:00 am

I'm not 100% sure about my choices, but I'll try to do my best:

1. 2008/09 LeBron James - GOAT level peak, I prefer his RS over 2016, which wasn't that great.

2. 1991/92 Mark Price - just outstanding offensive player, far smarter than Kyrie. One of the best shooters ever and excellent playmaker. His defense wasn't the best, but he was tough man who did his best with limited physical tools.

3. 1991/92 Larry Nance - one of the most underrated players ever, elite defender and excellent offensive player within his limited role. Probably the best shotblocking forward ever, marvelous athlete.

4. 2016/17 Kyrie Irving - I think I may underrate him a bit, because I don't like his game but I can't deny that he was excellent in the playoffs.

5. 1991/92 Brad Daugherty - I'm not happy with the last choice, Brad was solid all-around bigman but I never viewed him like a true star. He wasn't good defensively and his offense, although very efficient, was quite limited.

HMs to Lenny Wilkens, Campy Russell, World B. Free, Terrel Brandon and Kevin Love. Cavs franchise doesn't have great collection of talent to be honest...
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#26 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 7:52 am

drza wrote:Haven't had time to participate in this project, unfortunately. You're starting off with some of my historically favorite players' teams, and I missed out. There's a solid chance I'll have more time once the regular season is over, but by then I'll have already missed out on Dr. J and now, Ron Harper. I don't know if Harper has an analytics case to be made vs the competition, but I'll say that as a kid growing up in Ohio that LOVED those late 80s/early 90s Cavs, to the point that I'd listen to them on the radio on their station 1100, WWWE (which BARELY made it to my hometown, but the signal got stronger at night)...Ron Harper was the electric engine on that team.

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Price, or even Daugherty or Nance had a numeric argument over Harper. But Harper was the one, not draftmates Price or Daugherty, that was almost Rookie of the Year (I still think he should've beaten Chuck Person). Harper was the one, when all were healthy, that could be the best scorer and often the best defender on the court. Harper was the player on that team that made us believe we could compete with Jordan and the Bulls.

Shrugs. Just looked, and I hadn't realized Harper only played 3.5 seasons with the Cavs before getting traded to the Clippers. At the time, seemed longer. For my money, he was that dude in Cleveland
What would your votes for the other franchises have been?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#27 » by homecourtloss » Tue May 4, 2021 8:03 am

Djoker wrote:1. 2015-2016 Lebron James

The year Lebron put it all together in the Finals. I can't put pre-Heat Lebron given his playoff shortcomings. I see 2009 postseason as a fluke run given what happened in 2006-2008 and 2010-2011.

2. 2016-2017 Kyrie Irving

I think he's the second best Cavalier ever. He peaked in the 2016 and 2017 postseason albeit as a 2nd option and put up a few legendary performances including off course the historic shot... but being a 2nd option doesn't hurt him on this list because all the guys after him here couldn't ever win rings as 1st options either IMO. Kyrie's injuries held him back from more regular season accolades in 2015-2016 so I chose 2016-2017 because that was a healthy season surrounded by two great postseasons. I'm actually a bit surprised he isn't getting more love from people here.

3. 1991-1992 Mark Price

One of the best shooters ever who gets somewhat forgotten.

4. 1988-1989 Larry Nance

1st Team All-Defense and good numbers.

5. 1991-1992 Brad Daugherty

Made an all-NBA team this season. Prototypical 20/10 big who played like a true pro and no real weaknesses.

Honestly I feel very unqualified to rank players #3-#5. I barely ever watched them play.

HM: 2015-2016 Kevin Love who I'm docking because he was hurt in the playoffs.


Of course you do
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#28 » by LA Bird » Tue May 4, 2021 1:37 pm

1. 2009 LeBron James
The largest gap between #1 and #2 for any franchise.

It's funny how a full 09 playoffs sometimes get dismissed as a fluke but the 16 playoffs is not when it's defined by two superhuman games. Similarly for the 13 playoffs too. 09 was LeBron's peak in two way impact and team success relative to teammate quality.

2. 1992 Mark Price
3. 1992 Larry Nance

The offensive and defensive anchors for those 90s Cavs teams. Daugherty may have gotten more praise than Nance at the time but it was kind of like Amare vs Marion. He provides better scoring but Nance was the more important two way player.

4. 1996 Terrell Brandon
5. 1989 Ron Harper

Not sure about these two since I hadn't looked into them much previously for my all time list. Could have gone with Kyrie for the last spot because of his postseason performances but his team impact seems to lag behind his individual numbers.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#29 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:02 pm

The Cavaliers results;

Code: Select all

1. 11-0-0-0-0 / 110 points / 1.000 share / '16 LeBron James
2.  0-9-1-1-0 /  71 points / 0.645 share / '92 Mark Price
3.  0-1-7-3-0 /  51 points / 0.464 share / '89 Larry Nance Sr.
4.  0-1-1-3-5 /  26 points / 0.236 share / '17 Kyrie Irving
5.  0-0-2-2-4 /  20 points / 0.182 share / '92 Brad Daugherty

6.  0-0-0-2-1 /   7 points / 0.064 share / '96 Terrell Brandon
7.  0-0-0-0-1 /   1 points / 0.009 share / '89 Ron Harper


Results on Google Sheet
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#30 » by Djoker » Tue May 4, 2021 4:39 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Djoker wrote:1. 2015-2016 Lebron James

The year Lebron put it all together in the Finals. I can't put pre-Heat Lebron given his playoff shortcomings. I see 2009 postseason as a fluke run given what happened in 2006-2008 and 2010-2011.

2. 2016-2017 Kyrie Irving

I think he's the second best Cavalier ever. He peaked in the 2016 and 2017 postseason albeit as a 2nd option and put up a few legendary performances including off course the historic shot... but being a 2nd option doesn't hurt him on this list because all the guys after him here couldn't ever win rings as 1st options either IMO. Kyrie's injuries held him back from more regular season accolades in 2015-2016 so I chose 2016-2017 because that was a healthy season surrounded by two great postseasons. I'm actually a bit surprised he isn't getting more love from people here.

3. 1991-1992 Mark Price

One of the best shooters ever who gets somewhat forgotten.

4. 1988-1989 Larry Nance

1st Team All-Defense and good numbers.

5. 1991-1992 Brad Daugherty

Made an all-NBA team this season. Prototypical 20/10 big who played like a true pro and no real weaknesses.

Honestly I feel very unqualified to rank players #3-#5. I barely ever watched them play.

HM: 2015-2016 Kevin Love who I'm docking because he was hurt in the playoffs.



Then why are you surprised Irving is not getting more 2nd place votes? His competition is primarily those 3 guys.


None of them seem to have done anything remotely impressive to what Kyrie did in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs. Heck Kyrie's 2016 Finals performance was probably better than some Finals MVP's over the years.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#31 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 5:47 pm

Djoker wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Djoker wrote:1. 2015-2016 Lebron James

The year Lebron put it all together in the Finals. I can't put pre-Heat Lebron given his playoff shortcomings. I see 2009 postseason as a fluke run given what happened in 2006-2008 and 2010-2011.

2. 2016-2017 Kyrie Irving

I think he's the second best Cavalier ever. He peaked in the 2016 and 2017 postseason albeit as a 2nd option and put up a few legendary performances including off course the historic shot... but being a 2nd option doesn't hurt him on this list because all the guys after him here couldn't ever win rings as 1st options either IMO. Kyrie's injuries held him back from more regular season accolades in 2015-2016 so I chose 2016-2017 because that was a healthy season surrounded by two great postseasons. I'm actually a bit surprised he isn't getting more love from people here.

3. 1991-1992 Mark Price

One of the best shooters ever who gets somewhat forgotten.

4. 1988-1989 Larry Nance

1st Team All-Defense and good numbers.

5. 1991-1992 Brad Daugherty

Made an all-NBA team this season. Prototypical 20/10 big who played like a true pro and no real weaknesses.

Honestly I feel very unqualified to rank players #3-#5. I barely ever watched them play.

HM: 2015-2016 Kevin Love who I'm docking because he was hurt in the playoffs.



Then why are you surprised Irving is not getting more 2nd place votes? His competition is primarily those 3 guys.


None of them seem to have done anything remotely impressive to what Kyrie did in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs. Heck Kyrie's 2016 Finals performance was probably better than some Finals MVP's over the years.



When you say playoffs you really just mean NBA finals. Which yes, Irving did have a better NBA finals than they did - because those guys never been in the NBA finals. And neither would Irving if he was in their position.

There's nothing really superior about Irving's stats over someone like Mark Price. I get the feeling you're just thinking of when Irving was hot and thinking he always played like that. He posted 57 TS%, 5 APG on about 2.5 turnovers - so he is actually a very consistent player, and we can say that he is consistent good but certainly not remarkable - definitely not way above Mark Price or Larry Nance (I mean on defense it's not even close, Nance destroys Irving and anyone Lebron ever played with before he went to LA).

Yeah, Irving put up 25 points while Price only would put up like 19 - but Price was way more efficient, he was a better shooter in general, and he was a more natural passer than Irving (Irving's APG is down because of Lebron, but regardless he's not a natural passer).

Irving is not much of a player on the defensive end. He has low turnovers, but great isolation ability - he can volume score but not that dominantly. A lot of Irving's shots including the crazy ones he hit were in one on one situations because naturally they're claming down on Lebron.

I just don't see how someone can say Irving is "clearly" better. Sounds like ring bias and perhaps selective memory. Even more so if you never saw the early 90s Cavs play - they were basically an army of Kyrie Irving level players. He would hardly look like a God amongst them. Top 20 guys just like Kyrie has always been.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#32 » by Djoker » Tue May 4, 2021 6:24 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Djoker wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:

Then why are you surprised Irving is not getting more 2nd place votes? His competition is primarily those 3 guys.


None of them seem to have done anything remotely impressive to what Kyrie did in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs. Heck Kyrie's 2016 Finals performance was probably better than some Finals MVP's over the years.



When you say playoffs you really just mean NBA finals. Which yes, Irving did have a better NBA finals than they did - because those guys never been in the NBA finals. And neither would Irving if he was in their position.

There's nothing really superior about Irving's stats over someone like Mark Price. I get the feeling you're just thinking of when Irving was hot and thinking he always played like that. He posted 57 TS%, 5 APG on about 2.5 turnovers - so he is actually a very consistent player, and we can say that he is consistent good but certainly not remarkable - definitely not way above Mark Price or Larry Nance (I mean on defense it's not even close, Nance destroys Irving and anyone Lebron ever played with before he went to LA).

Yeah, Irving put up 25 points while Price only would put up like 19 - but Price was way more efficient, he was a better shooter in general, and he was a more natural passer than Irving (Irving's APG is down because of Lebron, but regardless he's not a natural passer).

Irving is not much of a player on the defensive end. He has low turnovers, but great isolation ability - he can volume score but not that dominantly. A lot of Irving's shots including the crazy ones he hit were in one on one situations because naturally they're claming down on Lebron.

I just don't see how someone can say Irving is "clearly" better. Sounds like ring bias and perhaps selective memory. Even more so if you never saw the early 90s Cavs play - they were basically an army of Kyrie Irving level players. He would hardly look like a God amongst them. Top 20 guys just like Kyrie has always been.


Fair enough. I still feel like Kyrie was better in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs then any of those guys ever were during their careers.

But I don't know much about Nance and Daugherty. I admit that. I've seen a bit more of Price.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#33 » by Owly » Tue May 4, 2021 7:22 pm

Djoker wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Djoker wrote:
None of them seem to have done anything remotely impressive to what Kyrie did in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs. Heck Kyrie's 2016 Finals performance was probably better than some Finals MVP's over the years.



When you say playoffs you really just mean NBA finals. Which yes, Irving did have a better NBA finals than they did - because those guys never been in the NBA finals. And neither would Irving if he was in their position.

There's nothing really superior about Irving's stats over someone like Mark Price. I get the feeling you're just thinking of when Irving was hot and thinking he always played like that. He posted 57 TS%, 5 APG on about 2.5 turnovers - so he is actually a very consistent player, and we can say that he is consistent good but certainly not remarkable - definitely not way above Mark Price or Larry Nance (I mean on defense it's not even close, Nance destroys Irving and anyone Lebron ever played with before he went to LA).

Yeah, Irving put up 25 points while Price only would put up like 19 - but Price was way more efficient, he was a better shooter in general, and he was a more natural passer than Irving (Irving's APG is down because of Lebron, but regardless he's not a natural passer).

Irving is not much of a player on the defensive end. He has low turnovers, but great isolation ability - he can volume score but not that dominantly. A lot of Irving's shots including the crazy ones he hit were in one on one situations because naturally they're claming down on Lebron.

I just don't see how someone can say Irving is "clearly" better. Sounds like ring bias and perhaps selective memory. Even more so if you never saw the early 90s Cavs play - they were basically an army of Kyrie Irving level players. He would hardly look like a God amongst them. Top 20 guys just like Kyrie has always been.


Fair enough. I still feel like Kyrie was better in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs then any of those guys ever were during their careers.

But I don't know much about Nance and Daugherty. I admit that. I've seen a bit more of Price.

Prime Price? In terms of games (versus highlights ... I say this because Price is more highlight friendly) that would suggest you were watching the '94 Cavs? Even then Daugherty plays 50 games (though sub-optimal). Or '90 but even then Daugherty plays 41, Nance 62. One could perhaps say they saw prime Nance without the others (in Phoenix because Nance's entire career, near enough, is prime or prime adjacent). It may be possible but it seems a hard needle to thread to see enough to have a handle on (good, prime versions) Price but not the others.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#34 » by Djoker » Tue May 4, 2021 7:45 pm

Owly wrote:
Djoker wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:

When you say playoffs you really just mean NBA finals. Which yes, Irving did have a better NBA finals than they did - because those guys never been in the NBA finals. And neither would Irving if he was in their position.

There's nothing really superior about Irving's stats over someone like Mark Price. I get the feeling you're just thinking of when Irving was hot and thinking he always played like that. He posted 57 TS%, 5 APG on about 2.5 turnovers - so he is actually a very consistent player, and we can say that he is consistent good but certainly not remarkable - definitely not way above Mark Price or Larry Nance (I mean on defense it's not even close, Nance destroys Irving and anyone Lebron ever played with before he went to LA).

Yeah, Irving put up 25 points while Price only would put up like 19 - but Price was way more efficient, he was a better shooter in general, and he was a more natural passer than Irving (Irving's APG is down because of Lebron, but regardless he's not a natural passer).

Irving is not much of a player on the defensive end. He has low turnovers, but great isolation ability - he can volume score but not that dominantly. A lot of Irving's shots including the crazy ones he hit were in one on one situations because naturally they're claming down on Lebron.

I just don't see how someone can say Irving is "clearly" better. Sounds like ring bias and perhaps selective memory. Even more so if you never saw the early 90s Cavs play - they were basically an army of Kyrie Irving level players. He would hardly look like a God amongst them. Top 20 guys just like Kyrie has always been.


Fair enough. I still feel like Kyrie was better in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs then any of those guys ever were during their careers.

But I don't know much about Nance and Daugherty. I admit that. I've seen a bit more of Price.

Prime Price? In terms of games (versus highlights ... I say this because Price is more highlight friendly) that would suggest you were watching the '94 Cavs? Even then Daugherty plays 50 games (though sub-optimal). Or '90 but even then Daugherty plays 41, Nance 62. One could perhaps say they saw prime Nance without the others (in Phoenix because Nance's entire career, near enough, is prime or prime adjacent). It may be possible but it seems a hard needle to thread to see enough to have a handle on (good, prime versions) Price but not the others.


I never paid attention to Nance and Daugherty. And I probably saw less than 5 games of those guys in total.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Cavaliers 

Post#35 » by drza » Wed May 5, 2021 12:07 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
drza wrote:Haven't had time to participate in this project, unfortunately. You're starting off with some of my historically favorite players' teams, and I missed out. There's a solid chance I'll have more time once the regular season is over, but by then I'll have already missed out on Dr. J and now, Ron Harper. I don't know if Harper has an analytics case to be made vs the competition, but I'll say that as a kid growing up in Ohio that LOVED those late 80s/early 90s Cavs, to the point that I'd listen to them on the radio on their station 1100, WWWE (which BARELY made it to my hometown, but the signal got stronger at night)...Ron Harper was the electric engine on that team.

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Price, or even Daugherty or Nance had a numeric argument over Harper. But Harper was the one, not draftmates Price or Daugherty, that was almost Rookie of the Year (I still think he should've beaten Chuck Person). Harper was the one, when all were healthy, that could be the best scorer and often the best defender on the court. Harper was the player on that team that made us believe we could compete with Jordan and the Bulls.

Shrugs. Just looked, and I hadn't realized Harper only played 3.5 seasons with the Cavs before getting traded to the Clippers. At the time, seemed longer. For my money, he was that dude in Cleveland
What would your votes for the other franchises have been?


Like I said, I haven't really been able to look at it much. But Dr. J was my first favorite player, then Harper was my second and THE favorite player of my youth. Never forgave the Cavs for trading him to the Clippers, which at the time was the equivalent of Siberia (and there was no League Pass at the time). Digression. I'd love to have explored where Doc's peak fit in with the 76ers, same with Harper and the Cavs...but just missed this one. Maybe I'll get to come back and give my 2 cents later...
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