Derrick Coleman in today's league

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Derrick Coleman in today's league

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durantbird
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Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#1 » by durantbird » Mon May 3, 2021 6:45 am

Reading about Derrick Coleman, he seems like the archetype of the modern big man. Could score from the inside and outside the arc, good dribbler and passer. How good do you think he would have been in today's league? If you had to rank him among current Centers, where would he rank?
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#2 » by Owly » Mon May 3, 2021 9:00 am

durantbird wrote:Reading about Derrick Coleman, he seems like the archetype of the modern big man. Could score from the inside and outside the arc, good dribbler and passer. How good do you think he would have been in today's league? If you had to rank him among current Centers, where would he rank?

"Would shoot" from the outside is probably more accurate than "could score". .308 from three ... maybe you say it's borderline passable for a big the time ... maybe. FT% is above average, maybe good but nothing special for a PF (.769). Not an expert in the norms for these numbers but the later career 10-16ft (.340) and 16-3pt (.365) don't look super encouraging either.

I think his (non) commitment to conditioning and defense might be bigger issues today. Maybe a bought in, apex Coleman with time to adjust would have me more bulllish ... maybe.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#3 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon May 3, 2021 10:25 am

Coleman is in my view the biggest underachiever whose career I could witness almost entirely.
He did have really all time great level talent, he did show it from time to time, but he didn't have the right mentality to put all the necessary work to realize his potential.

No point discussing what he could have been now. Maybe even worse as he'd likely be maxed out in his second contract and make much much more money than what he actually did.

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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#4 » by Prokorov » Mon May 3, 2021 6:59 pm

durantbird wrote:Reading about Derrick Coleman, he seems like the archetype of the modern big man. Could score from the inside and outside the arc, good dribbler and passer. How good do you think he would have been in today's league? If you had to rank him among current Centers, where would he rank?


I think you would have a better verison of current julius randle.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#5 » by Prokorov » Mon May 3, 2021 7:00 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Coleman is in my view the biggest underachiever whose career I could witness almost entirely.
He did have really all time great level talent, he did show it from time to time, but he didn't have the right mentality to put all the necessary work to realize his potential.

No point discussing what he could have been now. Maybe even worse as he'd likely be maxed out in his second contract and make much much more money than what he actually did.

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he had seriously health conditions.., people took it as lazy, he wasnt
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#6 » by kuclas » Mon May 3, 2021 7:26 pm

Owly wrote:
durantbird wrote:Reading about Derrick Coleman, he seems like the archetype of the modern big man. Could score from the inside and outside the arc, good dribbler and passer. How good do you think he would have been in today's league? If you had to rank him among current Centers, where would he rank?

"Would shoot" from the outside is probably more accurate than "could score". .308 from three ... maybe you say it's borderline passable for a big the time ... maybe. FT% is above average, maybe good but nothing special for a PF (.769). Not an expert in the norms for these numbers but the later career 10-16ft (.340) and 16-3pt (.365) don't look super encouraging either.

I think his (non) commitment to conditioning and defense might be bigger issues today. Maybe a bought in, apex Coleman with time to adjust would have me more bulllish ... maybe.


He likely coud shoot 35-38% range from 3 point range with more volume. People can look at guys like Al Horford who took very little 3 pointers early in his career but than started taking more volume 3s. Horford shoots a respectable 36% from 3. Shoots similar from free throw line as Coleman 76%. Coleman was a far more gifted offensive scorer than Horford.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#7 » by durantbird » Tue May 4, 2021 6:43 am

For those who vote top 11 or less, suppose it's around Turner/Capela/Valanciunas/Ibaka/Lopez, so any of them have a case over Coleman?
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Tue May 4, 2021 11:28 am

Prokorov wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Coleman is in my view the biggest underachiever whose career I could witness almost entirely.
He did have really all time great level talent, he did show it from time to time, but he didn't have the right mentality to put all the necessary work to realize his potential.

No point discussing what he could have been now. Maybe even worse as he'd likely be maxed out in his second contract and make much much more money than what he actually did.

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he had seriously health conditions.., people took it as lazy, he wasnt


What was the health condition? And I haven't heard he was lazy (at least when he was playing), the rap I always heard was that he refused to listen to his coaches (he and Chris Morris both).
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#9 » by wojoaderge » Tue May 4, 2021 3:15 pm

penbeast0 wrote:What was the health condition? And I haven't heard he was lazy (at least when he was playing), the rap I always heard was that he refused to listen to his coaches (he and Chris Morris both).

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2018/08/18/dmc-reunites-heart-patients-medical-teams/1002889002/
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#10 » by Outside » Tue May 4, 2021 3:33 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:What was the health condition? And I haven't heard he was lazy (at least when he was playing), the rap I always heard was that he refused to listen to his coaches (he and Chris Morris both).

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2018/08/18/dmc-reunites-heart-patients-medical-teams/1002889002/


I did not know that. Thank you for the link. This completely changes my opinion of him as a player.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#11 » by Owly » Tue May 4, 2021 3:40 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Coleman is in my view the biggest underachiever whose career I could witness almost entirely.
He did have really all time great level talent, he did show it from time to time, but he didn't have the right mentality to put all the necessary work to realize his potential.

No point discussing what he could have been now. Maybe even worse as he'd likely be maxed out in his second contract and make much much more money than what he actually did.

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he had seriously health conditions.., people took it as lazy, he wasnt


What was the health condition? And I haven't heard he was lazy (at least when he was playing), the rap I always heard was that he refused to listen to his coaches (he and Chris Morris both).

Rick Barry's Pro Basketball Bible 1995-96 Edition wrote:Season Summary/Scoring
Coleman's playing ability is overwhelmed by his notoriety as the poster boy for teh spoiled modern-day athlete ... Earns the games biggest salary ($7.5 million per) and has the biggest ego but has accomplished nothing.... His prima donna antics highlight the Nets' circus act... Doesn't apply himself to the game fully, content with giving 20-and-10 per night and thus claiming to be one of the game's best... A "cancer" who rejects team rules, berates teammates and coaches, and routinely skips shootarounds and practices... When he does practice, it's half-heartedly.... Running joke at Meadowlands is that assistant coach Jerry Eaves practiced more than Coleman - which was true because Eaves also had to sub for other missing Nets.... [Section about games missed comparison in that regard to Karl Malone, him calling Malone "Uncle Tom", Jazz 0-8 record versus Malone's Jazz, Malone "outscored himby1,000 points lasts season) ...In a dust-up with G.M. Willis Reed after a loss in Minnesota, Coleman shouted at Reed: "You were just a role player!"... Had his usual offseason arrest in Detroit this summer, but Reed stands by his former All-Star. "I'm not shopping Derrick Coleman," Reed said... "I have an All-Star player already, and we think he's going to be an All-Star again" ... But Butch Beard, Nets coach, would like to see a bit more from franchise player... "I don't want to put it all on D.C. because we all need to get in the gym and work," Beard said... "I'm just saying that I would like to get more out of him" ... Beard is right (continues with more directly game related stuff)

Intangibles

(Shot at him being outscored by backup Gilliam) ... Lacking a love for the weight room, Coleman looks pudgier every season, which makes him more of an injury risk... Has never played 82 games in a season.

In Sum
For a No.1 draft pick and former Rookie of The Year, he has become more toruble than he's worth... And there's little evidence that he's ready to turn over a "new leaf"

So attitude foremost but conditioning and practice were considered an issue.

Heart related issue. Detail isn't super clear immediately.
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/19/sports/pro-basketball-coping-with-a-heart-problem-is-part-of-williams-s-game-plan.html
https://www.deseret.com/1995/10/19/19199470/nets-coleman-to-check-irregular-heartbeat
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-10-17-sp-57819-story.html
https://nypost.com/2008/05/02/heart-problems-for-derrick-coleman/
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#12 » by Owly » Tue May 4, 2021 4:37 pm

kuclas wrote:
Owly wrote:
durantbird wrote:Reading about Derrick Coleman, he seems like the archetype of the modern big man. Could score from the inside and outside the arc, good dribbler and passer. How good do you think he would have been in today's league? If you had to rank him among current Centers, where would he rank?

"Would shoot" from the outside is probably more accurate than "could score". .308 from three ... maybe you say it's borderline passable for a big the time ... maybe. FT% is above average, maybe good but nothing special for a PF (.769). Not an expert in the norms for these numbers but the later career 10-16ft (.340) and 16-3pt (.365) don't look super encouraging either.

I think his (non) commitment to conditioning and defense might be bigger issues today. Maybe a bought in, apex Coleman with time to adjust would have me more bulllish ... maybe.


He likely coud shoot 35-38% range from 3 point range with more volume. People can look at guys like Al Horford who took very little 3 pointers early in his career but than started taking more volume 3s. Horford shoots a respectable 36% from 3. Shoots similar from free throw line as Coleman 76%. Coleman was a far more gifted offensive scorer than Horford.

Horford's 3 shooting has come in an era where he's shooting .795 from the stripe. So this seems to have been an effortful improvement in shooting skill to some extent. From the field, and acknowledging lower league norms Horford destroys Coleman from 10 feet and out (.440 10ft-16ft, .467 from 16ft-3pt). We're not looking at the full body of work for Coleman but there's less evidence that Coleman is only needing a step back from a shot he's very good at making.

Shooters above 74% but below 78% this season (so far) are cumulatively at 0.350589075 from three (just in over the bottom end of your estimate). Depending on how we think of "modern player" (and so what sample is available) this is off a small sample (i.e. a small number of players and . This was based on the 76% cited above though that's probably too mean on Coleman who was actually near enough .77. If looking at those less than 2 percentage points away from Coleman's .769 this year the number rises slightly to 0.35483871.

Obviously with time travel hypotheticals there is a wide range of reasonable disagreement and interpretations of exactly how it works. Shooting percentages (more so on lower volumes) are volatile year to year anyhow and partially subject to team conditions. Volume matters too in terms of whether you shoot sufficiently often to stretch defenses and can make with that greater attention.

At a guess (and, of course, with some work)- if forced, noting the uncertainty inherent, covered above - the lower end of your range looks somewhat plausible, though the poor record on mid- and long-twos would make me hesitant.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#13 » by Snakebites » Tue May 4, 2021 4:38 pm

No amount of modernization will fix his attitude.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#14 » by NO-KG-AI » Tue May 4, 2021 6:18 pm

He’s a lot like Demarcus Cousins without the natural bulk and power IMO. He’s definitely skilled, and athletic, but not generational in either facet


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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#15 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 5, 2021 10:12 pm

It's funny, I saw most of Coleman's career live, and looking back on his stats he was more productive than I remembered. Yeah the efficiency leaves something to be desired, but in my head he was an even bigger disappointment. I then realized I didn't see him in college, and he must've had truly lofty expectations. Reminds me of Laettner who ended up having a respectable career. Not the true bust that people claim him to be. Perception is a heavy hitter.
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Re: Derrick Coleman in today's league 

Post#16 » by pipfan » Thu May 6, 2021 8:58 pm

I have Coleman as the biggest modern under-achiever. The guy was SO talented, never really put it together

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