RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 (Terry Porter)

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Quotatious

trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 9,901
And1: 5,594
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 (Terry Porter) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Mon May 3, 2021 1:42 pm

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. Isiah Thomas
44. Russell Westbrook
45. Willis Reed
46. Chauncey Billups
47. Paul Pierce
48. Gary Payton
49. Pau Gasol
50. Ray Allen
51. Dwight Howard
52. Kevin McHale
53. Manu Ginobili
54. Dave Cowens
55. Adrian Dantley
56. Sam Jones
57. Bob Lanier
58. Dikembe Mutombo
59. Elvin Hayes
60. Paul Arizin
61. Anthony Davis
62. Robert Parish
63. Bob Cousy
64. Alonzo Mourning
65. Nate Thurmond
66. Allen Iverson
67. Tracy McGrady
68. Alex English
69. Vince Carter
70. Wes Unseld
71. Tony Parker
72. Rasheed Wallace
73. Dominique Wilkins
74. Giannis Antetokounmpo
75. Kevin Johnson
76. Bobby Jones
77. Bob McAdoo
78. Shawn Marion
79. Dennis Rodman
80. Larry Nance
81. Ben Wallace
82. Hal Greer
83. Grant Hill
84. Sidney Moncrief
85. Damian Lillard
86. Chris Bosh
87. Horace Grant
88. Jeff Hornacek
89. Billy Cunningham
90. Dan Issel
91. James Worthy
92. Carmelo Anthony
93. ??

Target stop-time will be around 9-10am EST on Wednesday.
NOTE: There is likely to be some new candidates to include in Condorcet listings: LaMarcus Aldridge and Bernard King. Please make sure you provide an updated list.


Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

DCasey91 wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joe Malburg wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
Dutchball97
Starter
Posts: 2,244
And1: 1,921
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
 

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#2 » by Dutchball97 » Mon May 3, 2021 1:48 pm

1. Nikola Jokic - I might be voting for Jokic for a while but I think he deserves to make the list at least. Jokic' case is very similar to Giannis in my opinion. Both have 4 high level years along with 1 other positively contributing year. While both have 4 great regular seasons it is clear Giannis has the edge up till 2020, which is why I have him ahead. The difference in longevity is just Giannis' first two years when he was barely a replacement level player so if you're fine with Giannis being voted in this range, how can you justify not having Jokic not in your top 100 at all? Their play-off resumes are comparable at this point as well. Giannis has 5.8 WS and 3.4 VORP in the post-season so far compared to 5.5 WS and 3.5 VORP for Jokic. Giannis has reached the play-offs more often (5 times) than Jokic (2 times) but both have 3 play-off series wins at this point. While Giannis has played 10 more games than Jokic, the reason why the numbers are still close is that both of Jokic' runs were arguably better than any of Giannis' play-off outings. It's a shame some of the voters don't consider him for the top 100 project at all but at this point of the list we're all simply going to have to accept players will receive votes that others don't have among their next 25 picks at all.

2. Gus Williams - While another voter already has Dennis Johnson on his ballot, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned his teammate on the 79 champion Supersonics yet tbh. Gus Williams was only a 2 time All-Star so I understand he might fly under the radar for some people but this massively undervalues him. His prime quality and duration really isn't much different than Ben Wallace. It maybe shouldn't be a surprise I'm this high on Gus WIlliams because I've consistently put a big emphasis on play-off performance and Gus was a post-season savant who consistently stepped his game up when it counted most. After being the best player for the 78 Sonics that lost game 7 of the finals, he went on to post a 23.8 PER, .210 WS/48 and 6.7 BPM alongside a league leading 2.7 WS and 1.3 VORP on the way to a championship the next year. That isn't the end of Gus Williams being amazing in the play-offs though. In the 1980, 82, 83 and 84 post-seasons he had 20+ PER, .150+ WS/48 and 6+ BPM in every single one of those campaigns.

3.Terry Porter - Like Gus Williams, Terry Porter is only a 2-time All-Star but just like with Gus this underrates Porter's prime significantly. Porter's prime was cut short but he still managed 6 very strong seasons from 87/88 till 92/93. In the play-offs he was always solid but his main case there are 3 very strong consecutive post-seasons in 1990, 91 and 92. He played 58 play-off games over that 3 year stretch and was playing at a high level throughout. I think Gus Williams just has a few more really strong post-seasons but other than that I don't see much seperating them.

Draymond Green > Anfernee Hardaway > Jimmy Butler > Cliff Hagan > Paul George > Kyle Lowry > Marques Johnson > Jerry Lucas > Neil Johnston > Walt Bellamy > Chris Webber > Maurice Cheeks > Jack Sikma > Andrei Kirilenko > Eddie Jones > LaMarcus Aldridge > Bernard King > Bill Walton > Connie Hawkins > Dennis Johnson > Dave DeBusschere > Tiny Archibald
Hal14
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,777
And1: 1,000
Joined: Apr 05, 2019

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#3 » by Hal14 » Mon May 3, 2021 1:50 pm

Hal14 wrote:1. Dennis Johnson
2. Tiny Archibald
3. Walt Bellamy

Johnson was Finals MVP in 79. The dude was an animal. Flying around the court like a bat outta hell, some of the best defense a guard has ever played. Going all out, hustling, taking it strong to the rim.

Next, let's look at 84. 83-84 was his first year on the Celtics. The year before that in 83 the Celtics got swept in the 2nd round by the Bucks. Yes, KC Jones taking over as coach was a factor as well, but the Celtics adding Johnson was a HUGE reason why they went from being swept in the 2nd round in 83 to NBA world champs beating the Lakers in the finals the very next year in 84 (with Magic and Kareem in their prime).

In both 84 and 86 Johnson was one of the team's top 4 players, came through in the clutch time and time again and Bird is on record saying that Johnson was the best teammate he ever played with (meaning Bird thinks Johnson was better than Parish and Mchale).

https://www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-reveals-the-best-player-hes-ever-played-with/

Johnson was one of the best defensive guards of all time, easily one of the top 10 defensive guards ever. The guy had very good size and strength at the PG position which made him a tough matchup, early in his career had great explosiveness and athleticism, he could score inside, drive to the basket and as his career went on developed a deadly outside shot - especially in the mid range area, not as much from 3 because at the time 3's weren't being taken very much across the league (early in his career there was no 3 point line), plus he could rebound well, unselfishly looked to get the ball to his teammates but would make you pay dearly if you ignored him too much on offense, plus of course his outstanding defense.

Solid longevity, played 14 seasons (13 of which he played 27+ mins a game and all of them he played in 70+ games) which was solid for that era, especially considering he played in a ton (180 to be exact) of playoff games.

How about durability? The guy always played, he was always in the lineup. Out of his 14 seasons:
-he played 72+ games in 14/14 (100%)
-he played in 77+ games in 12/14 seasons (86%)
-he played in 80+ games in 7/14 seasons (50%)

How about Rasheed's durability?
-he played 72+ games in 14/16 (63%)
-he played in 77+ games in 8/16 seasons (50%)
-he played in 80+ games in 10/16 seasons (13%)

Here's a glimpse into how good Johnson was on defense:


Johnson was as good defensively as any guard to ever play. Only guards I might put over him on D are Jordan, Payton and maybe Frazier.

How clutch was Johnson? Take a look at this huge shot to beat the Lakers in the finals:


Want more clutch plays? Larry Bird made a great steal, but it wouldn't have mattered, the Celtics would have still lost that game (and the series) if Johnson didn't race in towards the basket, catch the ball in traffic and finish over a defender:


Johnson blocked 7 shots in a single NBA finals game (1978)

Johnson won NBA finals MVP (1979)

Johnson hit the first game winning 3-pointer in NBA playoff history (1980)



Celtics got swept in the 2nd round by the Bucks. Then they add DJ to the team and beat the Lakers (with prime Magic and prime Kareem) in the NBA finals in 1984.

If you want a guys who put up some nice advanced stats in an era where advanced stats didn't even exist yet, sure go ahead and vote for Hornacek. But if you want to win, then DJ is your guy.

Dennis Johnson is considered by many to be one of the most underrated players of all time:



https://aminoapps.com/c/hoops/page/blog/most-underrated-nba-player-of-all-time-dennis-johnson/pXNH_Qun5plrpdaKeJJ7JElNaBb8Qez#:~:text=Johnson%20(R.I.P.)%20is%20NBA's%20all,the%20most%20underrated%20player%20ever.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/3584-the-most-underrated-players-in-nba-history

https://www.celticsblog.com/2014/10/20/7012785/celtic-great-dennis-johnson-clutch-underrated

http://loganssportsratings.blogspot.com/2016/08/top-100-nba-players-45-dennis-johnson.html

Tiny is a 6 time all-star, 3x all NBA 1st team, 2x all NBA 2nd team. You want peak? Only player ever to lead the NBA in both scoring and assists in the same season. And he was a key piece on the 1981 NBA championship-winning Celtics. Solid defender. Very few point guards in the history of the game possessed his combination of scoring and distributing. And he did it in an era before it was easier for point guards to dominate the league (like it's been since 2005). He'd be even higher up this list if not for injuries, but still had 13 seasons which is pretty good longevity, especially for that era.

Bellamy was a dominant center who could do it all - hit shots, score with power inside, rebound, defend, run the floor. Good combination of size, strength and skill. Sure, his ability diminished in his later years, but that's why he's not a top 50 player. If you just look at top 1 or 2 years for peak, there are very few centers who can match Bellamy. It's about time he gets voted in:

Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 43,792
And1: 12,639
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#4 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 3, 2021 2:16 pm

I wanted to address this specifically from the last thread:

Owly wrote:I'm not using Barry to "push back". This is not primarily a "pushing" exercise. Though this time I fear it's feeling like one. Barry was dominant in the very early ABA notching a 29.6 PER, .301 WS/48 (despite not being able to influence the team component for the majority of the season), and since you like it 219.5 TS add ... across 1361 minutes (which is to say, set to shatter Hawkins's record over a full schedule).


First let me note, Owly wrote a bunch more than this and I want to be clear that the whole post was good, but I wanted to "push back" on this. ;)

I think it's important to understand the difference between contexts:

In '68-69, the Rick Barry's Oakland Oaks played for Alex Hannum - the 2nd best coach in history to that point, and the only one to ever beat Bill Russell's Celtics in the playoffs (Hawks in '57-58, 76ers in '66-67). He also left the NBA to join the ABA without every leaving his home in the Bay Area.

In '68-69, Connie Hawkins' Pipers were forced to move to Minnesota because George Mikan demanded a team be moved to Minnesota after the previous one left for Miami, since that's where he lived and that's where he forced the ABA to be based. The coach from the previous year wouldn't move to Minny, and so in addition to the players getting used to Minny, in the span of a year, the Pipers played for not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE different coaching tenures (Jim Harding, had something of a mental breakdown partway through the year before coming back for a few games and then disappearing from pro basketball for good).

Remember also that Barry got hurt partway through the year and this led the Oaks to fall apart. Kidding, they coasted to the championship without Barry.

Now, let's note the TS Add within team context - noting that both Barry & Hawkins had injury issues that kept cumulative totals lower:

Rick Barry: +219.5
Rest of the Oaks: +435.5

Connie Hawkins: +200.6
Rest of the Pipers: -534.7

If that doesn't seem dramatic, look for the minus sign.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 9,901
And1: 5,594
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#5 » by trex_8063 » Mon May 3, 2021 2:16 pm

1st vote: LaMarcus Aldridge
This was almost a coin-flip between him and Webber.
I don't think he peaked quite as high (peaking at probably a weak All-NBA 2nd Team level), but he was just so solidly consistent for about 11 straight years. It's left him in fairly high standing in various counting and cumulative metrics, but he also has a handful on years rating out in the top 12-15 of the league in terms of impact (see below).

Where some people try to label LMA as a low-efficiency volume scorer, I'd advise looking to his turnover economy, which is arguably GOAT [like for real: GOAT] among big-men. So his all-around offensive efficiency should be viewed in light of that.

He always struck me as reasonably solid defensively [above neutral at least] through his prime.

And where some try to label him "empty stats", I'd note that is simply NOT reflected in the actual impact metrics. For instance, I'd note he has NINE seasons >+2 RAPM, and EIGHT above +3.
Below is his league rank in combined PI RAPM by year:
'09: 16th
'10: tied for 18th
'11: 21st
'12 (NPI): tied for 31st
'13: tied for 15th (with All-NBA 1st teamer Tim Duncan)
'14 (NPI): tied for 15th
'15: 25th
'16: 22nd
'17: notable dip (still positive, but no where near top of the league)
'18 (NPI, rs-only): 12th

So that's a solid decade where his impact metrics would fairly consistently posit him as a fringe All-Star at worst (and All-NBA 2nd/3rd team level at best), especially considering he played anywhere from 30.6 to 39.6 mpg [avg of 35.7 mpg] over this decade while missing relatively few games.



2nd vote: Chris Webber
Short(ish) prime, and certainly under-achieved his potential [though his potential was REALLY damn high]. He's still a very nice peak and top 2-3 years, with some useful years outside of that. An OK [and somewhat versatile] scorer, EXCELLENT passing big-man, very very good rebounder, good defender when engaged (though I'll freely acknowledge he was NOT consistently engaged).
Although he's an under-achiever [boy, this is a lukewarm endorsement!], I think he did enough in his career to warrant consideration here.


3rd vote: Zelmo Beaty
He's been name-dropped [not only be me, as of last thread]. I'm gonna start pushing for him.
The more I look at him, the more underrated he looks. Several really solid NBA season (seemed pretty reliable for around 18-21 pts and 11-14 reb on VERY good shooting efficiency basically all thru the mid-late 60s). What's more is he has a passable to decent defensive reputation (known as a pretty physical [almost "enforcer"-type??] defender).

Then he jumps into the ABA of the early-mid 70s (an ABA that had Rick Barry, Mel Daniels, and Dan Issel, plus Erving, Gilmore, and McGinnis by Zelmo's 2nd season), and he immediately looks like one of its very best players for those first two seasons. By his 3rd season in the ABA [now age 33], he declines to being merely fringe All-Star level.

I'll try to post a little more later, but he just looks like a very solid candidate.
Cheeks, Sikma, and Porter also very close here.

Have updated my list [for Condorcet purposes] to include ANYONE who has received votes of any kind, plus some others who are definitley on my radar:
LMA > Webber > Beaty > Cheeks > Sikma > Porter > Lowry > Walker > DeBusschere > Hawkins > Bellamy > Johnston > G.Williams > D.Johnson > Walton > Jokic > Tiny > Draymond > King (may change the order on Walton/Jokic/Tiny as we go along, but this is how I'm currently feeling).
Could see going a pinch higher with Terry Porter......am looking into it. Could also see bumping Hawkins ahead of DeBusschere +/- Walker.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 17,800
And1: 21,139
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#6 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon May 3, 2021 2:20 pm

Just throwing a name out there to the shorter career voters: what do you guys think about David Thompson?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompda01.html
Owly
Analyst
Posts: 3,413
And1: 1,790
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#7 » by Owly » Mon May 3, 2021 3:04 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I wanted to address this specifically from the last thread:

Owly wrote:I'm not using Barry to "push back". This is not primarily a "pushing" exercise. Though this time I fear it's feeling like one. Barry was dominant in the very early ABA notching a 29.6 PER, .301 WS/48 (despite not being able to influence the team component for the majority of the season), and since you like it 219.5 TS add ... across 1361 minutes (which is to say, set to shatter Hawkins's record over a full schedule).


First let me note, Owly wrote a bunch more than this and I want to be clear that the whole post was good, but I wanted to "push back" on this. ;)

I think it's important to understand the difference between contexts:

In '68-69, the Rick Barry's Oakland Oaks played for Alex Hannum - the 2nd best coach in history to that point, and the only one to ever beat Bill Russell's Celtics in the playoffs (Hawks in '57-58, 76ers in '66-67). He also left the NBA to join the ABA without every leaving his home in the Bay Area.

In '68-69, Connie Hawkins' Pipers were forced to move to Minnesota because George Mikan demanded a team be moved to Minnesota after the previous one left for Miami, since that's where he lived and that's where he forced the ABA to be based. The coach from the previous year wouldn't move to Minny, and so in addition to the players getting used to Minny, in the span of a year, the Pipers played for not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE different coaching tenures (Jim Harding, had something of a mental breakdown partway through the year before coming back for a few games and then disappearing from pro basketball for good).

Remember also that Barry got hurt partway through the year and this led the Oaks to fall apart. Kidding, they coasted to the championship without Barry.

Now, let's note the TS Add within team context - noting that both Barry & Hawkins had injury issues that kept cumulative totals lower:

Rick Barry: +219.5
Rest of the Oaks: +435.5

Connie Hawkins: +200.6
Rest of the Pipers: -534.7

If that doesn't seem dramatic, look for the minus sign.

Since it's tangent I'll bite.

Some of Hawkins (high minute, high usage) teammates sure do suck. To me, more than anything this (and the roster churn) confirms that this early version of the league wasn't even necessarily getting, or putting on the court the best available second tier talent.

The teammate difference does create/inflate Barry's WS/48 advantage that particular year, which wasn't a comparison I was using (more looking at league jumps causing number jumps).

Those injuries aren't for the same proportion of the season.
'69 Barry TS add per 48: 7.741366642
'68 Hawkins TS add per 48: 5.483534647
'69 Hawkins TS add per 48: 5.199136069
which is to say, set to shatter Hawkins's record over a full schedule


It's only one aspect of the game. It's not a number I particularly use. I don't know to what degree Barry's number would hold up over a larger sample (it doesn't get replicated as the league progresses).

Could one argue Hawkins is working in a dysfunctional environment ... probably. Is that hurting his shooting numbers ... maybe (it certainly doesn't seem as if he's forcing any offense, he's within what I'd, otoh, call second option usage range). Could one argue that Hawkins just isn't lifting his teammates ... maybe. The latter take seems mean (for instance he improves the Suns) but I don't know whether we have the data for each's impact or if anyone has dug in or even whether there's likely to be anything more than noise in a one year comp. But "he's shooting well in an offense that otherwise sucks" isn't necessarily a universally positive indicator.
Dutchball97
Starter
Posts: 2,244
And1: 1,921
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
 

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#8 » by Dutchball97 » Mon May 3, 2021 3:29 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:Just throwing a name out there to the shorter career voters: what do you guys think about David Thompson?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompda01.html


He's a guy I took a look at when updating my rankings with the likes of Cliff Hagan and Marques Johnson but I decided not to include him because with only 8 spots left I didn't see him making his way onto my ballot. His raw numbers look strong for a considerable amount of seasons and he's quite the legend but his box stats suggest he was never the same after the injury in the 79/80 season. This leaves him with 4 strong seasons but not a lot of play-off success. His numbers seem to take quite a dip in the post-season.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 43,792
And1: 12,639
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#9 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 3, 2021 4:35 pm

Owly wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I wanted to address this specifically from the last thread:

Owly wrote:I'm not using Barry to "push back". This is not primarily a "pushing" exercise. Though this time I fear it's feeling like one. Barry was dominant in the very early ABA notching a 29.6 PER, .301 WS/48 (despite not being able to influence the team component for the majority of the season), and since you like it 219.5 TS add ... across 1361 minutes (which is to say, set to shatter Hawkins's record over a full schedule).


First let me note, Owly wrote a bunch more than this and I want to be clear that the whole post was good, but I wanted to "push back" on this. ;)

I think it's important to understand the difference between contexts:

In '68-69, the Rick Barry's Oakland Oaks played for Alex Hannum - the 2nd best coach in history to that point, and the only one to ever beat Bill Russell's Celtics in the playoffs (Hawks in '57-58, 76ers in '66-67). He also left the NBA to join the ABA without every leaving his home in the Bay Area.

In '68-69, Connie Hawkins' Pipers were forced to move to Minnesota because George Mikan demanded a team be moved to Minnesota after the previous one left for Miami, since that's where he lived and that's where he forced the ABA to be based. The coach from the previous year wouldn't move to Minny, and so in addition to the players getting used to Minny, in the span of a year, the Pipers played for not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE different coaching tenures (Jim Harding, had something of a mental breakdown partway through the year before coming back for a few games and then disappearing from pro basketball for good).

Remember also that Barry got hurt partway through the year and this led the Oaks to fall apart. Kidding, they coasted to the championship without Barry.

Now, let's note the TS Add within team context - noting that both Barry & Hawkins had injury issues that kept cumulative totals lower:

Rick Barry: +219.5
Rest of the Oaks: +435.5

Connie Hawkins: +200.6
Rest of the Pipers: -534.7

If that doesn't seem dramatic, look for the minus sign.

Since it's tangent I'll bite.

Some of Hawkins (high minute, high usage) teammates sure do suck. To me, more than anything this (and the roster churn) confirms that this early version of the league wasn't even necessarily getting, or putting on the court the best available second tier talent.

The teammate difference does create/inflate Barry's WS/48 advantage that particular year, which wasn't a comparison I was using (more looking at league jumps causing number jumps).

Those injuries aren't for the same proportion of the season.
'69 Barry TS add per 48: 7.741366642
'68 Hawkins TS add per 48: 5.483534647
'69 Hawkins TS add per 48: 5.199136069
which is to say, set to shatter Hawkins's record over a full schedule


It's only one aspect of the game. It's not a number I particularly use. I don't know to what degree Barry's number would hold up over a larger sample (it doesn't get replicated as the league progresses).

Could one argue Hawkins is working in a dysfunctional environment ... probably. Is that hurting his shooting numbers ... maybe (it certainly doesn't seem as if he's forcing any offense, he's within what I'd, otoh, call second option usage range). Could one argue that Hawkins just isn't lifting his teammates ... maybe. The latter take seems mean (for instance he improves the Suns) but I don't know whether we have the data for each's impact or if anyone has dug in or even whether there's likely to be anything more than noise in a one year comp. But "he's shooting well in an offense that otherwise sucks" isn't necessarily a universally positive indicator.


I'd object to the use of Hawkins' teammates being vastly inferior to Barry's teammates as a reason to be skeptical of Hawkins, but yes, Chico Vaughn would not be getting shot attempts on a better run team with better access to talent.

Re: TS Add per 48. Do recall that Hawkins came back from injury far from 100% and this dragged his numbers down. I don't have the specific numbers right in front of me but you can calculate for yourself on bkref now I think. If memory serves, he was scoring 32-33 PPG and doing so in the >60% TS range.

Re: not lifting teammates. Well the specific issue is that there were a couple guards on the team who preferred to shoot rather than pass the ball into the pivot for Hawkins to actually run the offense. And yeah, it's hard to lift a teammate who won't pass you the ball and insists on shooting shots he can't hit. It's why the coach the previous year sometimes benched those guards.

If you'd like an example of Hawkins lifting an NBA teammate, I'd note Art Heyman the previous year. Looked awful before getting traded to the Pipers, but after joining Hawkins played like an all-star. That performance didn't continue the next year, and I'll also note that Heyman was known as being "the flakiest man in pro basketball". Talented, not a ballhog, but a roller coaster of emotions.

Re: Shooting in an offense that otherwise sucks. Right but we saw him lead the best offense in the ABA the previous year despite a massive disadvantage relative to the Dallas team, and we saw him transform the Phoenix offense in the NBA too. We also see him called possibly the best passer in the NBA, a smart decision maker, low on turnovers, and remarkably efficient as a scorer for someone without much formal training.

Anyway, appreciate the back & forth. More than anything else, I want to paint a picture of a player that most don't know a lot of details about, and who really is quite singular not just in his story, but in the way he played the game.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 23,410
And1: 5,378
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#10 » by penbeast0 » Mon May 3, 2021 5:40 pm

trex_8063 wrote:...
3rd vote: Zelmo Beaty
He's been name-dropped [not only be me, as of last thread]. I'm gonna start pushing for him.
The more I look at him, the more underrated he looks. Several really solid NBA season (seemed pretty reliable for around 18-21 pts and 11-14 reb on VERY good shooting efficiency basically all thru the mid-late 60s). What's more is he has a passable to decent defensive reputation (known as a pretty physical [almost "enforcer"-type??] defender).


For Beaty, I hadn't ever heard enforcer (as in Mel Daniels, Paul Silas, Maurice Lucas, Charles Oakley), I'd heard dirty (as in Bruce Bowen, John Stockton, Clyde Lovellette, Bill Laimbeer). 8-)
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
No-more-rings
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,542
And1: 2,353
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#11 » by No-more-rings » Mon May 3, 2021 7:24 pm

I have no idea how Draymond hasn't been voted in yet, while people like Bosh and Melo were. His longevity isn't great but it's decent enough and at this late in the list it probably shouldn't carry a ton of weight anyway. We're talking about a guy who was 2nd best player on two finals trips and the 3rd best on 3 more after that. The 2nd best player on a championship and 3rd best player on two more. Very arguably the 2nd most important to a team that went to 5 straight finals. Simply put Green's 5 year prime from 2015-2019 blows anything Melo or Bosh did out of the water. Bosh was maybe a top 10 player like once in 2010, otherwise he was floating around in the top 15 or 20 range, and in his Heat years was possibly lower than that. I think Melo has a good case in a lot of years for top 10 between like 09-14, but the competition to be top 10 seemed pretty weak in a lot of those years. If Melo's prime happened today, i think he'd be more like top 15-20 in a typical season.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 43,792
And1: 12,639
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#12 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 3, 2021 8:40 pm

Repeating vote with some updates.

Doctor MJ wrote:Alright...

1. Connie Hawkins
2. Bill Walton
3. Nikola Jokic

Other preferences in order:

Spoiler:
Chris Mullin
Draymond Green
Bernard King
Tiny Archibald
Buck Williams
Dave DeBusschere
Dennis Johnson
Terry Porter
Jack Sikma
Jerry Lucas
Walt Bellamy
Gus Williams
LaMarcus Aldridge


Hawk love letter:

I think there's never been anyone like him, before or since. I'm dying to see more footage of him, because honestly I think he's got a bunch of moves that we don't have names for.

The roots of Hawkins becoming what he became are a story not of some kind of inevitable success through sheer talent, but of a guy with great talent getting bounced around and picking up stuff as he went.

Hawkins was a star in each of the following places:
1. The Schoolyard
2. Golden Age NYC High School Basketball
3. ABL
4. Harlem Globetrotters
5. ABA
6. NBA

All 6 of these things are a big deal, though I'll note that I'd consider (1) and (4) the best for understanding how Hawkins became what he became where (5) and (6) represent the proof in the pudding.

To speak on (1), the thing to understand is that play in the school yard all day is what the "good" Black boys did in this era. You were either playing basketball, or you were getting involved in gangs, pimping, and eventually drugs. So if you had basketball talent, this is where your family wanted you. Stay on the court, where it's safe.

And from the perspective of these Black kids, when they played (white) kids from other places, they just always got the sense that those white kids were far less experienced, because they were doing a lot of things other than playing basketball.

So, while Hawkins was dominating the incredibly high quality ball of NYC back then too, the Schoolyard was always where he developed his game. Just trying different things.

Others noted that while Hawkins lacked confidence in general, and was a poor reader and a poor student, he was an extremely quick learner when he saw someone else do something on the basketball court. When an opponent did something with the ball against Hawkins, Hawkins seemed to instantly have a new tool.

It's also important to note that in the Schoolyard, Hawkins didn't start out as The Man. He learned to play by fitting in around others who were older and better. We're talking about a kid who was playing against NBA pros (in the NBA off-season) before he was a High School star, so when he was playing those games, he wasn't just going in as the star. He learned to fit in. He learned how to be an aware passer before he learned to be a scorer.

About (3), so as many of you know, Hawkins was banned from college due to point shaving scandal (he later won a lawsuit clearing his name), so he ended up getting an opportunity in Abe Saperstein's ABL, which had various former NBA pros and a 3-point line. In the lone full season of that league, Hawkins would win MVP.

This is obviously impressive for a guy basically straight out of high school - and speaks both to his talent and how much experience he'd already had beyond just playing against other high schoolers - but I'd also argue that if not for the existence of the ABL, there's a good chance Hawkins would have died on the vine. He didn't have any other great skills other than basketball, so most likely he'd have ended up like many of his other peers still in Brooklyn which was being taken over by a see of heroin.

But his performance in the ABL, led to an invitation to join Saperstein's flagship product: The Harlem Globetrotters.

And as fortune would have it, Sweetwater Clifton - former New York Ren, Globetrotters, NBA all-star - played in the ABL that year with Hawkins, and re-joined the Globetrotters at the same time as Hawkins. And he told Hawkins basically, "You don't realize what kind of things you can do with those big hands!"

He mentored Hawkins on the ways you can use your ability to easily palm a hand. More flexibility when driving, more ways to protect the ball when you're guarded, myriad tricky passes, and the ability to rebound with just one hand so you can use your other arm (ahem, elbow) to fend of opponents.

I've noted before that big hands seem to be a Harlem Globetrotter thing. Beginning with the team's first clown - Goose Tatum - along through Clifton, Meadowlark Lemon, along with Wilt Chamberlain, Hawkins, and others - the Globetrotters seemed to look for guys with big hands in a way that the NBA has literally never done. I've also seen it noted that a particular Globetrotter was held back by his hand size despite being naturally very comedic.

There's a kind of trickery you can do with hands like this that lends itself well to comedy through basketball actions, and this raises the question of whether these Globetrotters were much better at certain basketball skills than NBA players.

There the answer is yes with an asterisk. Most of the tricks the Globetrotters did, while they required great skill, were not designed to hold up against actual defenders, and this was a source of frustration for Hawkins who felt that he was becoming soft due to not playing in a real competitive league, which I'd say was true.

At the same time, he'd still go back to NYC and play in the Schoolyard testing out techniques. Basically, he mined stuff out from the Globetrotters, and the stuff he found could work against actual defenders, he made a part of his repertoire. And this is how he became truly unique.

As we look at Hawkins ABA & NBA years, one of the things to understand is that both when he joined Pittsburgh in the ABA and Phoenix in the NBA, the teams did not immediately re-shape their offenses around Hawkins, and between these ramp up times, Hawkins increasing tendency toward injury, and a tendency for Hawkins to get down on himself, when we look at his yearly stats, it has to be noted that there was far more variance over the course of the season in team and Hawkins-specific performance than you'd expect not simply as a modern observer, but as a contemporary observer. Hawkins wasn't the absolute rock that you'd expect from a Jerry West, and this certainly doesn't help his Top 100 case.

But what this context also means is that when you look at Hawkins' yearly stats those first few years, as impressive as they look, know that they underrate what he was doing at his best.

I've noted before that in his first year in the ABA, Hawkins led the league in PPG despite being 3rd on his team in FGA. He did this by also leading the league in TS%, and do so while also leading the team in APG, RPG, and almost certainly BPG & SPM had they had that data (but interestingly he did not lead his team in TOs, and was 11th on his team in terms of TOs per minute). To lead a team to the title like this is amazing, but it does give rise to the question: Why were other guys shooting more than Hawkins?

The answer seems to be that these guys were just flat out bad chuckers who the coach couldn't get to pass the ball even though he'd sometimes bench them just to ensure the ball went to Hawkins, but apparently the team couldn't get anyone better mid-season (neither would last that much longer in the ABA).

Now, I tend to read stuff that focuses on Hawkins' perspective rather than the perspective Chico Vaughn, so bias is a concern. But my conclusion is that even in a young ABA that wasn't what it would later become, the Pittsburgh Pipers had no business winning a title given the lack of team play. But what was the case is that when Hawkins played the pivot, the offense hummed with Hawkins both scoring incredibly well and passing incredibly well.

Hawkins suffered the defining injury of his career midway through his second ABA season, and most don't think he was ever as good again, yet still he ended up blowing away the NBA once he got going.

What precipitated him getting going? Mid-way through the season, Phoenix Suns GM Jerry Colangelo fired coach Red Kerr, took over as coach, and had the team play with Hawkins in the high post as the guy the offense would run through. Prior to that point, Hawkins had been positioned in the corner while team captain Gail Goodrich dribbled, dribbled, dribble, and then shot. Goodrich, it should be noted seems to have had a good attitude and was willing to play in an offense with Hawkins as the focus, but when left to his own devices, he tended to just iso.

A few more anecdotes in Hawkins first year in the NBA:

1. After the Suns beat the Celtics in Boston, Bill Russell - who had retired the previous year - came over and gushed "You can do things with the ball I've never seen before!". (Hawkins responded "If you'd have been out there, you'd have blocked half my shots". Russell then said "I don't think so".)

2. Hawkins drew rave reviews as the best passer in the league. Was he better than Oscar? I'm not prepared to say that, but what I can say is that Hawkins was doing things Oscar could not. One described play involved Hawkins having the ball in the high post and making two quick passing fakes in opposite directions (which he could do because had had the ball palmed), and then casually dribbling through the now open lane to the basket.

3. Another anecdote: Apparently Hawkins could dribble through press defense unaided. When a team pressed the Suns, they'd pass the ball to Hawkins, and get out of the way, while he dribbled his way through opponents. If this seems unrealistic for a player generally, I'd note that this skill was a major thing before the shot clock, and the team most famous for this ability was the Globetrotters back in their still-competitive days in the '40s. Against the Mikan-led Lakers, the Globetrotters famously gave the ball to master-dribbler Marques Haynes, and he dribbled what remained of the 4th quarter away so that his team could take the last shot.

While the shot clock rendered this specific ability moot, the Globetrotters used it as part of their act, and so this was something the Globetrotter players actually practiced, and Hawkins honed the ability there.

So I'd say the most amazing thing isn't that someone could do this, but that Hawkins at 6'8" could do this.

4. I'd note that Wilt said that Hawkins was the only guy in the world who could play "all three positions" - by which he meant guard, forward, and center.

I should also note that Hawkins's quickness and agility was tied to his lithe fame, so when Hawkins played center, he took a severe beating that made it hard for him to sustain that kind of play over a season.

I'll also note that Hawkins was a guy who got very little training in formal defense. With his long arms and quickness he could get blocks and steals, but he struggled beyond that.

5. Some people hated his "clown antics". Some refs in particular. I think this makes sense because the Globetrotters - while they may be clowns - spend their games making their opponents look like fools. What happens when you do that to someone who isn't paid to take it? Animosity.

6. Among players, Elvin Hayes in particular apparently expressed hostility toward Hawkins, and this led to a showdown in the very last game of the '69-70 season which Hawkin's Suns needed to make the playoffs. The Suns were down 19 points at half time, and in the second half Hawkins & Hayes matched up. Hawkins led the team back to a victory with a 44/20/8 night on 30 FGA, and was said to have had 5 blocks & 5 steals in the 3rd quarter alone. Multiple of those blocks came on Hayes who went for 23/18/2 on 25 FGA.

7. In the playoffs, the Suns would fight hard before losing in 7 to the West/Wilt led Lakers, with some making the comment that it was essentially "the Lakers vs Connie Hawkins".

After that year, Hawkins would still have great runs, but injuries took more of a toll. The general feeling was that his body was much older than his age suggested having played 250 Globetrotter games per year while others his age were playing 25 college games per year, to say nothing about all that time on the Schoolyard.

In the end, with Hawkins, I think it's very hard to know how to rank him and so I completely understand those who won't have him in the Top 100. More than anything else, I hope others can just appreciate how singular he was, and how significant on a level beyond simple career impact.

But I do think he warrants a place above Bill Walton, who is my #3 pick here. Love, love, love Walton, but as much as Hawkins had longevity issues, I'd say Walton had them worse, and I'm not comfortable saying that Walton was clearly the better player best vs best. I think Walton was amazing like this, and he certainly has the defensive edge overall, but in some ways I feel like you could look at Walton on offense as a poor man's Hawkins.

Part of what I'm saying here is that I believe that the pivot-and-cut offense that Jack Ramsay instituted for Walton in Portland is not some completely new thing, but rather something that was huge and never really made it to the NBA. Once the basketball world saw Mikan & Kurland, pivot-and-cut passing didn't seem as useful as just pass to low post and score. And when that paradigm got challenged, it got challenged by perimeter-oriented offenses that in today's game are dominant.

I would submit that we've never really seen the potential for a pivot-and-cut offense in the modern NBA until Nikola Jokic, and I might make a comparison between Jokic & Hawkins. And on that front, note that I have Jokic below Walton. Through the end of last season, I didn't think Jokic had done enough to surpass Walton, but with this season, well, things are changing.

I will note, with regards to context, I consider Jokic to be more of "random genius" than Hawkins. I think Hawkins became what he did because he was shaped by unique context and had specific, rare physical gifts. Jokic seems like he was born like this.

Alright, beyond Hawk I've got Walton & Jokic on my ballot.

So first, what that means is that I'm clearly right now siding on peak/prime over longevity relative to some other folks. As I always say, I'm not going to tell you that your longevity weighting is wrong - I think that's up to personal philosophy.

I will say on Walton I've had him all over my ballots through the years and really don't know where to put him...but I do think that he deserves to be higher than Jokic through '19-20. I understand that you can argue that Jokic should win based on a longevity edge, but Jokic is obviously weak there as well, and Walton being a key part of a championship team 7 years after the first really cements that indelible impression I have of him.

If you just think Jokic through last year was better than Walton, I get that, but I'd not feel comfortable saying that because Walton was the best defender on the planet.

On Jokic over other guys, the first guy I want to mention is someone I've not even been listing out because he hasn't had traction: Draymond Green. When I look at current players not in, those two are the next ones on my list and to be honest I expected to have Green ahead of Jokic.

If I felt strongly about Green over Jokic, I'd be arguing for that now, but I'm not. I can see arguments both ways, but Green really doesn't have much of a longevity edge, and as special as Green was at his best, I do think Jokic was more special by a smidge even before this year.

On Tiny Archibald - I'm really convinced at this point that he was an absolute killer at his best. He feels like he should be easily a Top 100 guy for me, and I rank him above some guys already on the list, but obviously there are still guys left out there that I like even better.

Since Porter almost got in is that I actually would put Buck Williams over Porter. Porter's greater if you factor in just their Blazer career, but Buck's work on the Nets is big too, so I'm slotting Buck in.

Also, it's bugging me that Chris Mullin isn't being given more love. I think it's worth reiterating that he wasn't a "fringe Dream Teamer". He was more of a lock than Barkley, and his minutes played in the Olympics speaks to this. Basically he had a role with some similarities to what what Miller/Allen/Curry would later have, and which is still tremendously underrated today imho.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 23,410
And1: 5,378
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#13 » by penbeast0 » Mon May 3, 2021 10:54 pm

DAMN, had this all pretty with statistical analysis and everything then I lost it.


1. Jack Sikma -- just the kind of guy who you can fit on any squad and creates wins. Not great but very good
2. Bob Dandridge -- similarly, a versatile very good 3rd option who could score if needed, play good defense and swing to the 4 (Milwaukee) or 2 (Washington).
3. Terry Porter -- efficient PG in a strong Portland ensemble that didn't quite make it over the top.


(Draymond Green) -- great defense plus playmaking
4. Webber
(Cliff Hagan) -- stepped up consistently in playoffs
5. Bellamy
(Zelmo Beaty)
6. DJ
7. Mookie
(Maurice Cheeks)
8. Connie Hawkins
(Chris Mullin) -- Smart, good outside shooter, slow footed defender
(LaMarcus Aldridge) -- 2-way consistency over a long prime
9. EltonBrand
(Marques Johnson -- peaked higher than King, shorter career, substance abuse issues
(Bernard King) -- a couple of great playoff performances, reasonably efficient scorer but brings little else and had substance abuse issues.
(Tiny Archibald) -- Amazing for a couple of years on Kings, like Isiaih Thomas that year in Boston, but with his lack of defense and the way his scoring game worked, can't really see him as a key ceiling raiser piece.
(Dave DeBusschere) -- excellent defender, not a long career, poor shooter relative to league
10. Walton
11. Jokic
12. Gus Williams
(David Thompson) -- Another skywalker, great scorer, but career destroyed by cocaine

Guys in parentheses are mentioned in other posts and I've tried to slot them in but haven't done the analysis to back it up yet.


GUARDS/WINGS
Terry Porter, Dennis Johnson, Gus Williams, Mookie Blaylock, Bobby Dandridge

Terry Porter is the most efficient shooter, Dandridge next, with the other three down below league average during their 5 year primes. DJ has the big rep, both on defense and in awards, Mookie also had a great defensive rep and was ahead of his time shooting low percentage from 2 but a lot of 3's, Dandridge is another very good defender, Porter and Gus Williams also solid. Porter, Blaylock, and Gus Williams generated assists like point guards, DJ and Dandridge like wings.

I rate them:
1. Dandridge -- do everything guy who stepped up in the playoffs. Whined his way out of Milwaukee but otherwise good teammate rep. Longer prime than Porter.
2. Porter -- Had a shorter prime than I remembered, most efficient scorer, very good player.
3a. DJ -- tempted to go Mookie here but DJ's versatility on the defensive end (and face it, if they are getting any traction it's on their defense) give him the edge despite Mookie's playmaking and range (tempted AGAIN to switch this!)
3b. Blaylock -- spread the floor and played great defense, very modern player. Got assists but not a great creator, scored nearly as much as DJ but no more efficient despite his 3 point range.
5. Gus Williams -- poor efficiency hurts the guy whose game was most built around volume scoring the most.

BIG MEN
Walt Bellamy was a true 1960 (and 70s) center. Good scorer, not a particularly good defender or passer, had a MONSTER rookie year on a super weak expansion team (in the league's most inflated year) then declined from that point on. A rep as being annoying in the locker room and showing up overweight. By the numbers, he's clearly the choice.

Sikma, Webber, Brand all F/C types. Webber and Brand also decent rim protectors though overall Sikma had the only All-Defense award. Sikma and Webber good (some say great) big man passers. Efficiency, Brand was decent, Sikma average, Webber below average; Webber the volume scorer, then Brand and Sikma.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 18,728
And1: 14,753
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#14 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon May 3, 2021 11:48 pm

my life would be much easier if i probably just voted nikola jokic in at #1 instead of #2...damn my stubbornness.
User avatar
prolific passer
Pro Prospect
Posts: 814
And1: 255
Joined: Mar 11, 2009

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#15 » by prolific passer » Tue May 4, 2021 2:30 am

The only guy to lead the league in scoring and assists in the same season not being on the list is mind boggling.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 43,792
And1: 12,639
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#16 » by Doctor MJ » Tue May 4, 2021 3:33 am

prolific passer wrote:The only guy to lead the league in scoring and assists in the same season not being on the list is mind boggling.


Tiny Archibald could use a champion.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
User avatar
prolific passer
Pro Prospect
Posts: 814
And1: 255
Joined: Mar 11, 2009

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#17 » by prolific passer » Tue May 4, 2021 3:49 am

Tiny from 72-77 averaged 27 9 2spg. Never got to see a prime Archibald in the playoffs but he was still good and made 3 all star games with the celtics and won a championship. I believe he won an all star game mvp in 81.

Draymond I think many feel got exposed last season with no Steph and/or Klay on the team.

Cliff Hagan from 57-62 was pretty much a beast. Led the 58 hawks in playoff scoring.

Bellamy is strange. Best season was his rookie season and got worse every year after. Had his most efficient season in Maravich's sophomore year.
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 18,728
And1: 14,753
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#18 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 6:37 am

Criteria

Spoiler:
I'm a pretty big peak guy, I'm not that interested in value of total seasons. The value of multiple seasons to me is to give me a greater sample size to understanding how good they were on the court, not necessarily the totality of their impact through out the years.

I also value impact over all else, and I define impact as the ability to help a team win games. Boxscore stats, team accolades and individual accolades (unless I agree with them personally) have very little baring on my voting so some names will look a bit wonky. The reason why I ignore accolades and winningness is because basketball is a team game and the players are largely not in control of the quality of their teammates or the health of their team (or their own personal health in key moments), thus I don't see the value of rating players based on xx has this many MVPs versus this guy has this many rings. In addition, I simply find this type of analysis boring because it's quite easy to simply look at who has a bigger laundry list of accomplishments.



1) Bill Walton. He is the best player by far here. He was probably a top 3 player in the world during his last couple years in college as well, though I believe this is NBA only. I am quite certain that Bill Walton is a top 20 peak ever. He is a top ten defensive anchor which alone adds more value than anyone left, and his offensive passing can generate very efficient offenses without him needing to score.

2)) Nikola Jokic. #2 vote I'll give to the only guy who is large and passes better than Walton. I'm not a longevity guy but Jokic has actually been a star caliber player for longer than people think. He was greatly underplayed in his 2nd season and Malone was criticized for that even back then. He has 4 seasons of all-star impact and two seasons where I had him as the 2nd best player in the league. I do think his offense is so special from his position that it causes an imbalance that makes him more valuable than two way bigs. His scoring ability might be the best among all the bigs left, and what's great about him is that he doesn't need to score a lot to have impact. Walton's defense is so intense that I can't imagine taking Jokic over that, but everyone else left is a tier or 2 down from either Walton's offense or his defense.


3) Draymond Green. After pondering it for a few threads I decided to place Green over Hawkins. I might go back on this. I think Green's defense is as valuable as many players volume scoring. He has an interesting quirk where he can raise his level of defense in the post season, a unique type of resilience. He also has the playmaking ability of a point guard, he's not just a guy who feast in huge open space making simple kicks to 3 point shooters. Green has learned how to read the defense, and is excellent at making quick decisions and not all the passes he makes are easy.









Hawkins > Porter > G Williams > King > Dennis Johnson > Lowry > Archibald > Aldridge > Lucas > Bellamy > Johnston > DeBusschere >
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 9,901
And1: 5,594
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#19 » by trex_8063 » Tue May 4, 2021 12:41 pm

Thru post #18:

LaMarcus Aldridge - 1 (trex_8063)
Nikola Jokic - 1 (Dutchball97)
Jack Sikma - 1 (penbeast0)
Bill Walton - 1 (HeartBreakKid)
Dennis Johnson - 1 (Hal14)
Connie Hawkins - 1 (Doctor MJ)


About 25 hours left on this one.
Condorcet listing that includes all the old names PLUS Aldridge and King, please.

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

DCasey91 wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joe Malburg wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
Hal14
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,777
And1: 1,000
Joined: Apr 05, 2019

Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #93 

Post#20 » by Hal14 » Tue May 4, 2021 1:22 pm

Condorcet votes:

1. Dennis Johnson
2. Dave DeBusschere
3. Bill Walton
4. Bernard King
5. Connie Hawkins
6. Jack Sikma
7. Gus Williams
8. Lamarcus Aldridge
9. Terry Porter
10. Nikola Jokic

Return to Player Comparisons