[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:02 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Celtics franchise history.

As Boston Celtics from 1949-50 to today


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Minnesota Timberwolves
Oklahoma City Thunder
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:04 pm

This will be our first competition for the top spot. We had clear #1s so far.

1. 1986 Larry Bird
2. 1962 Bill Russell

If we look at the latest single season peaks project, Russell and Bird were ranked directly next to each other at #7 and #8.
Changed my #1 from Russell to Bird. As the discussion about Garnett was going, I dived into games and I'm more impressed by Bird right now. Watching games made me appreciate Russell's defensive performance and facilitating skills on offense even more. But I gotta say that the impression jump for Bird is even bigger.

Fwiw, I'll say this; I believe 1964 and 1965 are more popular choices for Russell's single season peak over 1962. But for majority of the people doing that, they also tend to pick 1990 Ewing over the 1994 version. That's always looked like a pretty big inconsistency to me.

3. 2008 Kevin Garnett
I'm pretty harsh on Garnett and the Celtics playing 2 game 7s against negative SRS teams in the playoffs. But Garnett's quality and impact combination feels still quite strong.

4. 1988 Kevin McHale
As someone who's big on number of games missed, this may come as a surprise from me. But his performance in the playoffs, especially against the Pistons is the reason why I have this version. While none of the main rotation players scored on their usual volume and efficiency against the Pistons in that series, McHale went 26.8 ppg on +10.5 rts with solid defense. That kind of performance is good enough to compensate for some of the missed games I think.

5. 1972 John Havlicek
Despite 1972 not being a championship winning season in the Celtics history, I think Havlicek should be in the top 5 and I usually have 1972 as his single season peak, as his offense and defense were still on the top level for him and he still had his insanely strong motor going. Am I too harsh on Havlicek not having a stand out single season though by putting him below McHale?

HMs; 2005 Paul Pierce, 1973 Dave Cowens
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#3 » by Colbinii » Tue May 4, 2021 3:08 pm

Odinn21 wrote:This will be our first competition for the top spot. We had clear #1s so far.


The disrespect to Kyrie Irving...
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#4 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 3:25 pm

1) 1962 Bill Russell - I don't think him vs Bird is all that close. Bills defensive dominance seems much greater than Bird's offense. We've seen Bill anchor a team that is not that defensively stacked into astronomical territories, like the gap between 1st and 2nd place is about the same gap between 2nd and last place when Bill was breaking out. He's also a gamer in the playoffs even on offense where he is pretty resilient for a non-scorer, and of course his defense always translates.

2) 2008 Kevin Garnett - I do think Garnett peaked higher than Bird and tend to rank him above him (general reason why other two way bigs get ranked over Bird). However, until very recently that was more because of what Garnett did as a T-Wolve. I've been thinking about 2008 Garnett who I typically did not see as highly as others here, and would have him like 3rd or maybe 4th place in the 2008 rankings (often behind CP3, Kobe and possibly Lebron). When I think about how crazy the 2008 Celtics defense is - might even be the most dominant defense statistically since the Russell lead ones, and then I think about how there were hardly any real stoppers on the Celtics it gets me thinking maybe I should give Garnett a lot of credit for that. Might be because of the system, but it sure as heck worked. Perkins and a young Rondo are good defenders but not guys who would move the needle, and Tony Allen barely played.

3) 1986 Larry Bird - His stats are pretty similar to Jokic's this season and he had a stellar run. I could go back to ranking him over KG.

4) 1988 Kevin McHale - Not sure if Hondo was a better defender, my inclination is to say no. I think McHale does beat him in offense clearly. McHale is way ahead of Hondo as a scorer and he can also stretch bigs away from the paint. While Hondo has a big edge in passing, McHale was not really a poor passer - he didn't pass a lot because he just finished instead. His turnovers would probably be a bit worse if he was as blind as the memes say.

5) 1972 John Havilcek - His defense puts him ahead of Pierce of for me - outside of that they're pretty comparable.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#5 » by falcolombardi » Tue May 4, 2021 3:37 pm

question, what should be done to handle "outlier"seasons

it came up a lot in the cavs one with lebron 2009 and may happen with draymond 2016 or others down the road

many people dont like to take in account peak years that had a outlier stat for that phase of a player career but i dont see why a "outlier" year ahoulsnt be counted when we are looking for the BEST year, all best years being a outlier in some way that made them better than other prime seasons

if the idea is evaluating the years around too to see if it was a "fluke" why not change peak year to peak 3 years stretch then? would make more sense that way
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:46 pm

1. Larry Bird, 1985/86 - It is definitely a close call between Bird and Russell here but while I have Russell ahead on career, I do not think any of his seasons were as strong all around as Bird's 86 season.

2. Bill Russell, 1961/62 - I was initially going with the 65 version but it is true his 62 seasons was quite clearly his best offensively besides his consistently elite defense. I must admit the level of opponents faced in the play-offs also impacted my division. Facing Wilt's Warriors in the season where he averaged 50 ppg and the Lakers in a year where somehow both West and Baylor were healthy.

3. Kevin Garnett, 2007/08 - KG sits on a bit of an island at #3. Not particularly close to peak Bird or Russell but also definitely ahead of the other contenders. It's no surprise the Celtics have a lot of great options to choose from but this first season in Boston was really impressive and I don't see much of an argument for the other contenders ahead of KG here.

4. Kevin McHale, 1987/88 - If McHale hadn't gotten injured in 87 and performed as well in the post-season as he did in 86 and 88 then his 87 season would move up to third. The thing is he did get injured and did not perform at that level in the 87 post-season.

5. Paul Pierce, 2001/02 - I went pretty quickly through the first 4 picks but this last one was nearly impossible to choose. I value strong play-off performances and while his 2005 post-season was statistically great, it was still a 7 game series loss to the 6th seed as the 3rd seed. Especially since he was a team low -21 in game 7, which was a pretty embarrassing 27 point loss. His 01/02 season is a more complete season imo. I considered 74 Havlicek and 64 Sam Jones for their great play-off runs but while the post-seasons of these two guys and 02 Pierce are comparable statistically, Pierce has by far the best regular season here. I'm also not nearly as high on Cousy and Cowens as the MVP voters were back then as I believe neither should've really come close to the award.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#7 » by Dutchball97 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:48 pm

Odinn21 wrote:5. 1972 John Havlicek
Despite 1972 not being a championship winning season in the Celtics history, I think Havlicek should be in the top 5 and I usually have 1972 as his single season peak, as his offense and defense were still on the top level for him and he still had his insanely strong motor going. Am I too harsh on Havlicek not having a stand out single season though by putting him below McHale?



I mean, the project is about the best single season peaks in franchise history so it is a bit weird to me to award a player with a better career but arguably worse peak the spot over better single season peaks.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#8 » by Doctor MJ » Tue May 4, 2021 3:57 pm

falcolombardi wrote:question, what should be done to handle "outlier"seasons

it came up a lot in the cavs one with lebron 2009 and may happen with draymond 2016 or others down the road

many people dont like to take in account peak years that had a outlier stat for that phase of a player career but i dont see why a "outlier" year ahoulsnt be counted when we are looking for the BEST year, all best years being a outlier in some way that made them better than other prime seasons

if the idea is evaluating the years around too to see if it was a "fluke" why not change peak year to peak 3 years stretch then? would make more sense that way


First thing I'll say is that once a project gets going, it's criteria can really only be clarified rather than modified, else you strip the task of meaning.

Second thing I'll say is that having a project based on 3 year stretches is a perfectly fine thing to do.

But asking who had the best seasons for a given franchise is also a good thing to do, and while you can argue that it tends to inject narrative noise into the analysis, everyone within the NBA thinks about things on a season-by-season level. You get a ring for the best season, not the best 3-season-run, so a project based on this is most definitely also a perfectly fine thing to do.

Outliers, snoutliers, but the season did happen, and that season had real consequences.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#9 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 4, 2021 4:10 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:When I think about how crazy the 2008 Celtics defense is - might even be the most dominant defense statistically since the Russell lead ones, and then I think about how there were hardly any real stoppers on the Celtics it gets me thinking maybe I should give Garnett a lot of credit for that. Might be because of the system, but it sure as heck worked. Perkins and a young Rondo are good defenders but not guys who would move the needle, and Tony Allen barely played.

The Celtics had great defensive coaches. Surely, it was clearly KG's impact but I think you're moving the needle in favour of him too much.
Pierce was an insanely valuable defensive piece for instance. Pierce was in the top 14% in D-RAPM over 14 years. And that part is dominated by big men.
Going by position, Pierce was in the same tier with Marion, G. Wallace and Kirilenko.
Looking at single season numbers just to be direct to the point even though it's not highly reliable, Pierce was in the top 14% in D-RAPM in 2008 once again.

The team had Garnett, Pierce, Perkins, young Rondo. And even though Allen made your highlights with so little play time, Posey did not. If we're to assume Posey and Allen adding up to one proper defensive player, then there's that.
Considering the coaching quality of the team with that roster, if you put 2008 Garnett over 1986 Bird and defense is your reason, I strongly disagree with that.

Also the Celtics defense did not hold up that well in the postseason. They had -8.6 rDRtg in regular season and -4.6 rDRtg in playoffs.
Here some similar performances in a long playoff run (15 games or more);
1994 Knicks with -8.1 rDRtg in reg. season & -5.3 rDRtg in playoffs.
1996 Bulls with -5.9 rDRtg in reg. season & -8.3 rDRtg in playoffs.
1997 Heat with -6.1 rDRtg in reg. season & -7.5 rDRtg in playoffs.
1999 Spurs with -7.2 rDRtg in reg. season & -7.3 rDRtg in playoffs.
2004 Pistons with -7.5 rDRtg in reg. season & -10.7 rDRtg in playoffs.
2007 Spurs with -6.5 rDRtg in reg. season & -6.0 rDRtg in playoffs.

HeartBreakKid wrote:5) John Havilcek - His defense puts him ahead of Pierce of for me - outside of that they're pretty comparable.

Need a specification for season preference btw.

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Dutchball97 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:5. 1972 John Havlicek
Despite 1972 not being a championship winning season in the Celtics history, I think Havlicek should be in the top 5 and I usually have 1972 as his single season peak, as his offense and defense were still on the top level for him and he still had his insanely strong motor going. Am I too harsh on Havlicek not having a stand out single season though by putting him below McHale?


I mean, the project is about the best single season peaks in franchise history so it is a bit weird to me to award a player with a better career but arguably worse peak the spot over better single season peaks.

How I meant was if his consistency masks his peak. Similar to Karl Malone. At the time of goat peaks project, I thought that Malone was underrated due to his consistency and was curious if I was doing the same with Hondo in here.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#10 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 5:18 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:1) 1962 Bill Russell - I don't think him vs Bird is all that close. Bills defensive dominance seems much greater than Bird's offense. We've seen Bill anchor a team that is not that defensively stacked into astronomical territories, like the gap between 1st and 2nd place is about the same gap between 2nd and last place when Bill was breaking out. He's also a gamer in the playoffs even on offense where he is pretty resilient for a non-scorer, and of course his defense always translates.

2) 2008 Kevin Garnett - I do think Garnett peaked higher than Bird and tend to rank him above him (general reason why other two way bigs get ranked over Bird). However, until very recently that was more because of what Garnett did as a T-Wolve. I've been thinking about 2008 Garnett who I typically did not see as highly as others here, and would have him like 3rd or maybe 4th place in the 2008 rankings (often behind CP3, Kobe and possibly Lebron). When I think about how crazy the 2008 Celtics defense is - might even be the most dominant defense statistically since the Russell lead ones, and then I think about how there were hardly any real stoppers on the Celtics it gets me thinking maybe I should give Garnett a lot of credit for that. Might be because of the system, but it sure as heck worked. Perkins and a young Rondo are good defenders but not guys who would move the needle, and Tony Allen barely played.

3) 1986 Larry Bird - His stats are pretty similar to Jokic's this season and he had a stellar run. I could go back to ranking him over KG.

4) 1988 Kevin McHale - Not sure if Hondo was a better defender, my inclination is to say no. I think McHale does beat him in offense clearly. McHale is way ahead of Hondo as a scorer and he can also stretch bigs away from the paint. While Hondo has a big edge in passing, McHale was not really a poor passer - he didn't pass a lot because he just finished instead. His turnovers would probably be a bit worse if he was as blind as the memes say.

5) 1973 John Havilcek - His defense puts him ahead of Pierce of for me - outside of that they're pretty comparable.


Edited Havilcek's season to 1972.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#11 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 5:32 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:When I think about how crazy the 2008 Celtics defense is - might even be the most dominant defense statistically since the Russell lead ones, and then I think about how there were hardly any real stoppers on the Celtics it gets me thinking maybe I should give Garnett a lot of credit for that. Might be because of the system, but it sure as heck worked. Perkins and a young Rondo are good defenders but not guys who would move the needle, and Tony Allen barely played.

The Celtics had great defensive coaches. Surely, it was clearly KG's impact but I think you're moving the needle in favour of him too much.
Pierce was an insanely valuable defensive piece for instance. Pierce was in the top 14% in D-RAPM over 14 years. And that part is dominated by big men.
Going by position, Pierce was in the same tier with Marion, G. Wallace and Kirilenko.
Looking at single season numbers just to be direct to the point even though it's not highly reliable, Pierce was in the top 14% in D-RAPM in 2008 once again.

The team had Garnett, Pierce, Perkins, young Rondo. And even though Allen made your highlights with so little play time, Posey did not. If we're to assume Posey and Allen adding up to one proper defensive player, then there's that.
Considering the coaching quality of the team with that roster, if you put 2008 Garnett over 1986 Bird and defense is your reason, I strongly disagree with that.
.


Yeah, I'm going to disagree with that. I've been arguing Paul Pierce was a very good defender for years - but he was never as good as AK47, Marion or Wallace even in his defensive prime.

I don't get why Garnett doesn't get credit for the Celtics defense because he had "good coaches" (it's the Celtics, they've always had good coaches - Doc Rivers is probably closer to the worse coaches in Celtics history but I digress)) but a player like Steve Nash would get credit for the Suns offense.

The Celtics wouldn't be anywhere near the defense they were even if they replaced Garnett with just a good defensive big, just like the 86 Celtics wouldn't be anywhere near as good on offense if they replaced Bird with just a good offensive wing (they weren't half bad when Bird broke down on that end either).

There are many teams that had defensive trio better than Pierce, Perkins and Rondo that didn't have anywhere near the defense the Celtics had. The Jazz just a few years ago had Ingles, Rubio, Favors, Crowder which is a better defensive core and they were an elite defense but not an all time great one (and they're anchored by Gobert who is the best defender of the past 5 years or so).

Anyway, name dropping teammates (most of them are relatively unimpressive in an all time sense, I mean Posey? There are a bunch of players who are as good as Posey in 2008) for the 2008 Celtics is a fruitless exercise when compared to the 1986 Celtics. That's one of the most stacked teams of all time, easily a better team than the 2008 Celtics. I could say Bird wasn't moving the needle THAT much by name dropping a bunch of hall of fame teammates, but that would be a ridiculous thing to suggest.


Yeah, the Celtics defense weren't as great in the playoffs - they're not that strong of a championship team. But....as I said a lot of their defenders weren't actually that great. Kendrick Perkins was always exploitable even in a slower age - especially against the teams they struggled with (athletic teams basically, when they went up against a team that relied on size like the Lakers the Celtics did much better). Rondo can't check athletic wings which is what the Cavs and Hawks had, and Ray Allen wasn't a good defender in general. If we are saying the Celtics lacked playoff resilience on defense, I'm not starting with Garnett there.

So if you're going to disagree that I'm putting Garnett over Bird as defense as the reason (as opposed to offense?) then I suppose you wil just have to do just that.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#12 » by homecourtloss » Tue May 4, 2021 5:42 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:2) 2008 Kevin Garnett - I do think Garnett peaked higher than Bird and tend to rank him above him (general reason why other two way bigs get ranked over Bird). However, until very recently that was more because of what Garnett did as a T-Wolve. I've been thinking about 2008 Garnett who I typically did not see as highly as others here, and would have him like 3rd or maybe 4th place in the 2008 rankings (often behind CP3, Kobe and possibly Lebron). When I think about how crazy the 2008 Celtics defense is - might even be the most dominant defense statistically since the Russell lead ones, and then I think about how there were hardly any real stoppers on the Celtics it gets me thinking maybe I should give Garnett a lot of credit for that. Might be because of the system, but it sure as heck worked. Perkins and a young Rondo are good defenders but not guys who would move the needle, and Tony Allen barely played.

3) 1986 Larry Bird - His stats are pretty similar to Jokic's this season and he had a stellar run. I could go back to ranking him over KG.


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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#13 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 4, 2021 5:51 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Yeah, I'm going to disagree with that. I've been arguing Paul Pierce was a very good defender for years - but he was never as good as AK47, Marion or Wallace.

I don't get why Garnett doesn't get credit for the Celtics defense but a player like Steve Nash would get credit for the Suns offense. The Celtics wouldn't be anywhere near the defense they were even if they replaced Garnett with just a good defensive big.

There are many teams that had defensive trio better than Pierce, Perkins and Rondo that didn't have anywhere near the defense the Celtics had. The Jazz just a few years ago had Ingles, Rubio, Favors, Crowder which is a better defensive core and they were an elite defense but not an all time great one (and they're anchored by Gobert who is the best defender of the past 5 years or so).

Anyway, name dropping teammates (most of them are relatively unimpressive in an all time sense, I mean Posey? There are a bunch of players who are as good as Posey in 2008) for the 2008 Celtics is a fruitless exercise when compared to the 1985 Celtics. That's one of the most stacked teams of all time, easily a better team than the 2008 Celtics.

So if you're going to disagree that I'm putting Garnett over Bird as defense as the reason (as opposed to offense?) then I suppose you wil just have to do just that.

- I did not mention D-RAPM to say Pierce was as good as Marion or Kirilenko. He was too good be left out while talking about defensive structure of the team.

- The way your argument looked to me that you were crediting Garnett for the Celtics defense more than one should. I did not say we should not be crediting Garnett for that defense. I said this;
it was clearly KG's impact but I think you're moving the needle in favour of him too much.


- Posey and Allen both were decent defenders with not so much playtime in that season. Pegging down Allen's playtime without mentioning Posey was inaccurate. The Celtics had great perimeter/wing coverage in 2008.
Also 1985 Celtics were a stacked team and 2008 Celtics were not?
1985 Celtics main rotation without Bird; McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Wedman, R. Williams
2008 Celtics main rotation without Garnett; Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Perkins, Posey, P.J. Brown
How's that the 1985 version is easily better than the 2008 version?
Are you really saying 2008 Celtics were not one of the most stacked teams of all-time?

- Considering how the playoffs went down and the Celtics had to play 2 game 7s against negative SRS/NRtg teams, they went from being -8 rDRtg defense to -4 rDRtg defense in the first 2 rounds against below average offenses, yeah, I think you're hella overrating 2008 Garnett in here if you rank him over 1986 Bird. But yeah, let's leave it right here. We don't have to agree or anything.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#14 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue May 4, 2021 6:12 pm

Also, in regards to the Celtics defensive resiliency. The only "special" defender the Celtics really had was Tony Allen who played 18 minutes per game during the RS, and then played 4 minutes per game in the PS. Keep in mind this is a team going up against Joe Johnson, Josh Smith and Lebron James. So yeah, I could see why the Celtics defense might have just looked "elite" as opposed to unholy crushing.

The coaching aspect was overblown because at the end of the day Doc Rivers was the head coach not Thibs - and Doc Rivers doesn't understand nuances and does legitimately struggle in the playoffs. If Popovich had that team they would have wrecked the East.

Coaching certainly could have been better. (we have a pretty large sample size of how good of a post season coach Doc Rivers is - a lot of blemishes, including 2008 in all honesty.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#15 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:29 pm

Then there was Pierce and Posey who played a good chunk in the playoffs, also somewhat Rondo. I mean you're making a case for what happened by looking at what did not happen. That's an interesting way to argue if you disregard parts of what happened.

Coaching is an interesting hill to die on. We credit all the things a coaching staff do to head coach. Thibodeau not being a head coach does not mean he did not have a hand on the outcome. He was vital to defensive schemes the Celtics had and are you saying Doc Rivers being the head coach made him go against Thibodeau within the team in the playoffs and that reduced the team's defensive results?
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#16 » by falcolombardi » Tue May 4, 2021 6:38 pm

homecourtloss wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:2) 2008 Kevin Garnett - I do think Garnett peaked higher than Bird and tend to rank him above him (general reason why other two way bigs get ranked over Bird). However, until very recently that was more because of what Garnett did as a T-Wolve. I've been thinking about 2008 Garnett who I typically did not see as highly as others here, and would have him like 3rd or maybe 4th place in the 2008 rankings (often behind CP3, Kobe and possibly Lebron). When I think about how crazy the 2008 Celtics defense is - might even be the most dominant defense statistically since the Russell lead ones, and then I think about how there were hardly any real stoppers on the Celtics it gets me thinking maybe I should give Garnett a lot of credit for that. Might be because of the system, but it sure as heck worked. Perkins and a young Rondo are good defenders but not guys who would move the needle, and Tony Allen barely played.

3) 1986 Larry Bird - His stats are pretty similar to Jokic's this season and he had a stellar run. I could go back to ranking him over KG.


Gets out popcorn...


honestly for as impressive of a player bird was and how beatiful his game was...

the more i see of data about his celtics teams the more i think maybe his impact was a bit below his reputation

his celtics offenses despite good offensive talent seem to be a notch below magic offenses (i dont think old man kareem was better enough of a scorer than prime McHale to explain this)
or other all time great offensive engines like lebron or jordan

i actually came out of the top 100 project, ben taylor peaks project and sansterre threads feeling like bird doesnt belong belongs with the magic, jordan, lebron trio for offensive impact...which i didnt expect
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#17 » by Colbinii » Tue May 4, 2021 6:44 pm

1. Bill Russell 1965

At his peak he was a top 10 player of all-time with massive two-way impact. From what I have seen from Russell I have been impressed enough with his passing and finishing as a big man that it is a great compliment to his game as a GOAT-level defender.

2. Kevin Garnett 2008

This was a difficult choice with Russell but I believe Russell at his absolute best was slightly better than Garnett in an era-to-era comparison, though it was mostly splitting hairs.

3. Larry Bird 1985

A tremendous offensive player who is one of the most gifted basketball minds to ever live. I don't see his total impact quite on the level of Garnett/Russell but Bird is definitely in a category of his own in this comparison offensively.

4. 1988 Kevin McHale

Ultra-efficient scorer who was a tremendous defender. His low assist numbers and AST% paint him as more of a black hole than he really was.

5. Dave Cowens 1976

I really liked the two-way play and passing game of Cowens in the late 1970s Celtics. I have him a notch higher than Havlicek and Pierce--same tier of players but I like what Cowens was able to assemble in this season.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#18 » by KobesScarf » Tue May 4, 2021 7:05 pm

85 Bird
65 Russell
72 Hondo
73 Cowens
87 Mchale
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#19 » by falcolombardi » Tue May 4, 2021 7:08 pm

Colbinii wrote:1. Bill Russell 1965

At his peak he was a top 10 player of all-time with massive two-way impact. From what I have seen from Russell I have been impressed enough with his passing and finishing as a big man that it is a great compliment to his game as a GOAT-level defender.

2. Kevin Garnett 2008

This was a difficult choice with Russell but I believe Russell at his absolute best was slightly better than Garnett in an era-to-era comparison, though it was mostly splitting hairs.

3. Larry Bird 1985

A tremendous offensive player who is one of the most gifted basketball minds to ever live. I don't see his total impact quite on the level of Garnett/Russell but Bird is definitely in a category of his own in this comparison offensively.

4. 1988 Kevin McHale

Ultra-efficient scorer who was a tremendous defender. His low assist numbers and AST% paint him as more of a black hole than he really was.

5. Dave Cowens 1976

I really liked the two-way play and passing game of Cowens in the late 1970s Celtics. I have him a notch higher than Havlicek and Pierce--same tier of players but I like what Cowens was able to assemble in this season.


i know russel had the biggest defensive impact ever

but what is there to think he had massive offensive impact?

celtics offensive results seem to have been slightly below average. so the only way i can see someone with huge offense impact play in middling offenses is with pretty weak offensive rosters

neither the team results nor the raw boxcore screams "massive offense" at me

i dont doubt his passing and fastbreak running may have made him a useful/positive offensive player...but "massive"?, is it from offensive rebounding?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Celtics 

Post#20 » by Colbinii » Tue May 4, 2021 7:11 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Colbinii wrote:1. Bill Russell 1965

At his peak he was a top 10 player of all-time with massive two-way impact. From what I have seen from Russell I have been impressed enough with his passing and finishing as a big man that it is a great compliment to his game as a GOAT-level defender.

2. Kevin Garnett 2008

This was a difficult choice with Russell but I believe Russell at his absolute best was slightly better than Garnett in an era-to-era comparison, though it was mostly splitting hairs.

3. Larry Bird 1985

A tremendous offensive player who is one of the most gifted basketball minds to ever live. I don't see his total impact quite on the level of Garnett/Russell but Bird is definitely in a category of his own in this comparison offensively.

4. 1988 Kevin McHale

Ultra-efficient scorer who was a tremendous defender. His low assist numbers and AST% paint him as more of a black hole than he really was.

5. Dave Cowens 1976

I really liked the two-way play and passing game of Cowens in the late 1970s Celtics. I have him a notch higher than Havlicek and Pierce--same tier of players but I like what Cowens was able to assemble in this season.


i know russel had the biggest defensive impact ever

but what is there to think he had massive offensive impact?

celtics offensive results seem to have been slightly below average. so the only way i can see someone with huge offense impact play in middling offenses is with pretty weak offensive rosters

neither the team results nor the raw boxcore screams "massive offense" at me

i dont doubt his passing and fastbreak running may have made him a useful/positive offensive player...but "massive"?, is it from offensive rebounding?


Russell didn't have massive offensive impact. He had massive two-way impact meaning he was an above average offensive player and all-time great defensive player.

Perhaps I should have worded it differently--Russell was a solid/above average offensive player.
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