2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

[Jaivl]

Won't vote, but I would have

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Embiid
Doncic

Have Curry as the best player in the world this year, but Giannis and Jokic are close enough to reasonably give them the edge. Jokic had pretty much an spotless season and was my #1 after the RS, and Giannis flips Curry due to his excellent Finals.

Kawhi was getting there, but injuries, same with Durant and Harden. Never really had Lillard or Gobert in contention above #5, much less Paul or Booker (top 15-20ish for me). LeBron is #6.

You seem to be punishing Durant way more than you are Embiid for missed time. And yeah, Durant did miss 15 more RS games than Embiid, but he was likely playing the best basketball out of anyone in the playoffs until he got eliminated. Embiid missed a playoff game and was also hampered by injuries to his knees and back.

Understandable for Durant to not make the cut though...just don't think Embiid should really be in there either then, and definitely not over Doncic.

Although playing on 50% of the RS vs 75% is a big difference, you are absolutely right. I thought he had missed less time, and I should have Doncic above him, at least.

[Texas Chuck]

I disagree that KD was playing the best basketball in the playoffs fwiw. I get Kyrie went down and Harden was hobbled and KD was ironmanning the games, but his actual level of play seems to be getting oversold. I certainly have no room for him in a top 5 POY by any stretch.

[therealbig3]

I disagree that KD was playing the best basketball in the playoffs fwiw. I get Kyrie went down and Harden was hobbled and KD was ironmanning the games, but his actual level of play seems to be getting oversold. I certainly have no room for him in a top 5 POY by any stretch.

I don’t disagree, I don’t have him anywhere near top 5 either, and I did say arguably for him playing the best basketball, fine if you’d take others, there were a lot of great performances.

It’s more so Embiid I really don’t see room for in the top 5 either. I don’t think he deserves a ranking much higher if at all compared to Durant. Neither one is a candidate imo, given that Embiid missed a bunch of time too and wasn’t 100% for the playoffs. He didn’t exactly play amazing, he missed a playoff game, and he kind of flamed out in games 4-7 of the 2nd round because his injuries caught up to him. And if narratives play a role for anyone, man, losing to the Hawks as the #1 seed with game 7 at home…that hurts. In a series where some very large leads were blown as well.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't know if Embiid makes my top 5 or not, but I don't know that I would tie him in with KD. In addition to playing more RS games, he also was playing at a higher level than KD in RS games they each played. Certainly at the end of the RS I had Embiid in my top 5 along with Jokic, Giannis, Curry and then a decision between Dame or Gobert or Luka probably for that 5th spot. In other words for me anyway Embiid would need to be overtaken to not make the top 5 and KD would need to do some significant overtaking and while he was very good, I don't think he did nearly enough to get in. Embiid might be able to hold a spot especially since Curry added no value and that next group of 3 didn't do anything to move past Embiid meaning its got to be someone coming from further back--Trae or Booker or whomever.

IDK, haven't really sat down and looked at it yet. But I think Embiid still has a pretty good case.

[therealbig3]

Imo, my top 5 would be:

1. Jokic
2. Curry
3. Giannis
4. Luka
5. Lillard

Not sure after that, I don’t really see any of the “others” being all that close here, because of injuries. Trae and Booker both had impressive playoff runs, don’t think they’re as good as Lillard though. And I love LeBron, but not taking him over Lillard this year, Space Jam 2 be damned.

Spots 1-3 could be in any order honestly, but they’re the top 3 in my mind pretty clearly. That’s definitely not set in stone in terms of the order. Giannis has the best PS narrative but a relatively disappointing RS, Jokic has the best RS narrative but a relatively disappointing PS, and Curry was just the best player of the RS imo who doesn’t have a PS narrative because the rest of his team wasn’t that good this year.

[HeartBreakKid]

Imo, my top 5 would be:

1. Jokic
2. Curry
3. Giannis
4. Luka
5. Lillard

Not sure after that, I don’t really see any of the “others” being all that close here, because of injuries. Trae and Booker both had impressive playoff runs, don’t think they’re as good as Lillard though. And I love LeBron, but not taking him over Lillard this year, Space Jam 2 be damned.

Spots 1-3 could be in any order honestly, but they’re the top 3 in my mind pretty clearly. That’s definitely not set in stone in terms of the order. Giannis has the best PS narrative but a relatively disappointing RS, Jokic has the best RS narrative but a relatively disappointing PS, and Curry was just the best player of the RS imo who doesn’t have a PS narrative because the rest of his team wasn’t that good this year.

In another thread you basically went off at Chris Paul and in this thread you're saying Booker had an impressive run and was going to be your 5th place vote?

Paul was better than Booker pretty clearly in the playoffs. What's the argument there for Booker having a more impressive playoff run?

[BobbyPortisFan]

Imo, my top 5 would be:

1. Jokic
2. Curry
3. Giannis
4. Luka
5. Lillard

Not sure after that, I don’t really see any of the “others” being all that close here, because of injuries. Trae and Booker both had impressive playoff runs, don’t think they’re as good as Lillard though. And I love LeBron, but not taking him over Lillard this year, Space Jam 2 be damned.

Spots 1-3 could be in any order honestly, but they’re the top 3 in my mind pretty clearly. That’s definitely not set in stone in terms of the order. Giannis has the best PS narrative but a relatively disappointing RS, Jokic has the best RS narrative but a relatively disappointing PS, and Curry was just the best player of the RS imo who doesn’t have a PS narrative because the rest of his team wasn’t that good this year.

Jokic's defense concerns me playoffs wise, but it's probably fair t put him no.1, especially since giannis missed games in the playoffs.

[therealbig3]

Imo, my top 5 would be:

1. Jokic
2. Curry
3. Giannis
4. Luka
5. Lillard

Not sure after that, I don’t really see any of the “others” being all that close here, because of injuries. Trae and Booker both had impressive playoff runs, don’t think they’re as good as Lillard though. And I love LeBron, but not taking him over Lillard this year, Space Jam 2 be damned.

Spots 1-3 could be in any order honestly, but they’re the top 3 in my mind pretty clearly. That’s definitely not set in stone in terms of the order. Giannis has the best PS narrative but a relatively disappointing RS, Jokic has the best RS narrative but a relatively disappointing PS, and Curry was just the best player of the RS imo who doesn’t have a PS narrative because the rest of his team wasn’t that good this year.

In another thread you basically went off at Chris Paul and in this thread you're saying Booker had an impressive run and was going to be your 5th place vote?

Paul was better than Booker pretty clearly in the playoffs. What's the argument there for Booker having a more impressive playoff run?

-I never gave Booker any serious consideration for 5th, because I don't think he was all that close to Lillard...if I had to pick an HM, then him and Trae come to mind but I'm not bumping Lillard...it's not really something I'm giving much thought to if I'm being honest, because the next group of players are significantly further back, that I don't think it's all that relevant tbh. Like, if I think about it more, Trae was inconsistent in these playoffs, and he got hurt and missed crucial playoff games. He should get knocked down a peg for that too. Fine, you want me to consider Paul too...he's not all that close to Lillard this year either imo.

-Where did I go off on Chris Paul? I don't think I've directed ANY specific criticisms at the guy since the Finals, I've kept it about the Suns in general. I even admitted that I might be a Paul hater...but I never criticized him or blamed him for anything. Weird comment.

-Paul was clearly better than Booker? Feel like they were pretty comparable, and they both stepped up at various points. Booker was definitely better against LAL and LAC, Paul was better against Denver. Maybe was better against Milwaukee, but that's more debatable than any of the other series, Booker had some monster games towards the end of that series, and he faced more defensive attention all playoffs than Paul did, including that series, so obviously his efficiency took a hit. Anyway, definitely not clearly in favor of Paul (especially since he also missed playoff games while Booker didn't), and Booker was their #1 option and facing more defensive attention all year, he would get the nod for a POY spot over Paul for sure if I had to pick.

Not sure where you're going with any of this post tbh, it's a lot of strawman.

[Narigo]

1.Jokic
2.Giannis
3.Curry
4.Embiid
5.Gobert
6.Doncic
7.Lillard
8.Leonard
9.Butler
10.Paul

[falcolombardi]

can everyone vote or is there some requirement?

if i can vote i would go

1-giannis
2- jokic
3-embiid
4-curry
5-kawhi
6-doncic
7-gobert
8-durant
9-paul george
10-booker

[Doctor MJ]

You seem to be punishing Durant way more than you are Embiid for missed time. And yeah, Durant did miss 15 more RS games than Embiid, but he was likely playing the best basketball out of anyone in the playoffs until he got eliminated. Embiid missed a playoff game and was also hampered by injuries to his knees and back.

Understandable for Durant to not make the cut though...just don't think Embiid should really be in there either then, and definitely not over Doncic.

So, here's a stat I've been playing with: On-Court Wins, and On-Court W-L Record.

Basically, if during a game, you had a positive +/-, you get the win, anything else, you lose.

All caveats about this not being the end-all, be-all of metrics, but I think it's particularly useful when looking at Embiid this year.

So here are some POY candidates by this metric:

Rudy Gobert 54-17
Nikola Jokic 50-22
Chris Paul 46-24
Devin Booker 42-25
Trae Young 42-21
Stephen Curry 41-22
Giannis Antetokounmpo 40-21
Joel Embiid 39-12
Luka Doncic 38-28
Kawhi Leonard 37-15
Damian Lillard 37-30
Kevin Durant 25-10

Key observations:

Gobert towers above all, as we'd expect.

Jokic rises up to 2nd by Wins.

Paul stands out above Booker, which is interesting because Booker had the raw +/- edge.

Young & Curry have really good winning percentages, with Curry's being particularly jaw dropping when you remember his team missed the playoffs, yet he personally had more "wins" than all sorts of other guys. Also noteworthy that Curry had on-court wins in each of his two losing play-in games.

Giannis looks good by this metric, but egads...

look at Embiid. That's a huge winning percentage. He managed to win more than Luka or Dame despite playing much less.

So yeah, I believe Embiid will end up on #5 on my list above Luka, Dame & Kawhi, and this is part of why.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, so my last real post on POY, OPOY, DPOY I think before I actually vote. Will follow this up with another post for the other awards later.

The story of this year, as a POY voter, continues to be the sharp divergence between the regular and post seasons, and how that should be factored in for an award whose scope encompasses both.

Where I've settled is in a place of: The playoffs given an opportunity for all players to surpass others who were ahead of them in the regular season, and thus an expected method for "16 game players" to move past "82 game players" each an every post-season, but they still have to actually, y'know, DO IT, to move ahead.

The acid test here is Rudy Gobert, who I don't dispute is less effective in the playoffs than he is in the RS, but still got further in the playoffs than many of those we'd expect to be more likely to be able to lead a team to the finals. So for me, in the end, he's going to be quite high on my list.

On to specific award thoughts:

POY

I'm expecting to have my same MVP 5 (Jokic/Gobert/Curry/Embiid/Giannis), but with Giannis rising higher on the back of his playoff performance.

How high will Giannis rise for me? I think he's my #1. As much as I love Jokic, and as much as I understand arguments for him based on cumulative all-season play, I can't say in all honesty that I think Jokic matches the two-way Giannis play that got him the title, and that's an awfully hard thing for me to ignore.

In terms of my next 5, which I do as Honorable Mentions and grant myself a bit more liberty on, 4 of the 5 seem pretty clear to me (Kawhi/Dame/Luka/CP3), and the main thing I'm debating is whether Kevin Durant should get the last spot. I don't remotely think Durant was one of the 10 guys who had the most total impact this year, and I do think some of the SAS-type rhetoric thrown KD's way is absurd and unhelpful...but probably no team in history has come closer to beating the eventual champion than Durant's Nets did, and the fact he was doing it on an injury-crippled team is really something.

OPOY

I'm thinking Jokic/Curry/Lillard, which is how I had it after the RS iirc.

To reiterate something I've said before: Curry at his best this season was better than Jokic, both on offense and overall, but he didn't do that for anywhere near the entire season.

For the 3rd spot, the two main guys I've been debating are Lillard and Doncic, and I think some points on Doncic are worth elaborating upon.

It seems clear at this point that Doncic is a guy who ranks really, really, really high by the "unstoppability", but that this isn't translating into +/- style impact all that much. I won't be surprised if the the +/- impact comes soon, but at this point, he's kind of the other end of the spectrum from Gobert. I think Doncic is more likely to lead teams to titles than Gobert...but his regular season impact really wasn't that amazing, and then the Mavs exited in the first round. Am I really going to lift him up drastically on my POY/OPOY lists based on that? Nope, don't think so.

DPOY

So to me Giannis grabbed this by the horns by the end, and I feel good putting him at #1.

Gobert was my regular season DPOY, and I really don't feel comfortable trying to drop him any further than 2.

For the #3, the two guys on my mind are Draymond Green and Jrue Holiday. I'd still generally say that I think Draymond is the best defender in the world when things really count, and that the other guys in the debate for that aren't guards (AD, Giannis). So, in the abstract, Draymond over Jrue for me...but Jrue's man defense performance in the playoffs might have been the best I've ever seen...and of course, Draymond was busy being the MVP of TNT.