2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#101 » by Outside » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:22 am

Welp, I guess it's just me.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#102 » by eminence » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:25 am

That’s fair :)
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#103 » by eminence » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:37 am

Pretty impressive stuff from CP3, though I expect he can’t break free from the ‘needs everything to break right’ camp at this late of point. 6 guys with a bit of wiggle room for me after deciding on Steph over Dame/Luka.

Steph/Gobert/Kawhi/Jokic/Embiid/Giannis the 6, though Giannis needs to turn it around a bit if he wants to keep that wiggle room.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#104 » by bondom34 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:43 am

Different award, and don't think he'll get much love for it but on the topic of the Suns, it's the incredible (and fun) how much Cam Payne improved.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#105 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:17 pm

I think Payne is def a legit contender for MIP. He was in China earlier in the year for god sakes.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#106 » by Bidofo » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:46 pm

Bidofo wrote:
Spoiler:
Glad to finally participate in this. What I tentatively have so far:
POY
Jokic
Curry
Giannis
Gobert
Embiid
Luka
Kawhi

What Jokic is doing this season is nothing short of historic. I was already singing his praises last year, but this year has been another level up, and given a strong postseason, it might go down as the greatest offensive peak for a center in history and one of the greatest offensive peaks period of all time. A 130 box score ORTG on his volume and usage is pretty absurd.

Weirdly, it seems to me that people are underrating Curry. Is he really doing anything different from his 2016 regular season besides winning less because of a much worse roster? Not to mention that after they stopped playing Wiseman, the Warriors have looked kinda good. He's having his third 8+ OBPM year, and the first since his back-to-back MVP seasons except with much worse spacing and BBIQ on his team. The fact that there are significant concerns for whoever the #1 seed is (including a healthy Jazz team, I'd say) in taking out the Warriors should speak to his ranking. Speaking of the Jazz, I also think that perhaps there is some winning bias associated with Gobert's high ranking on some lists. I understand the rationale: he's the anchor of the fourth best defense and a big catalyst for their third best offense. To those who have watched him more than I, where has Gobert improved this season? How much different is he from last year, or the year before that? I'm not sure if this is still accurate (what with Mitchell's injury and Conley rest), but I recall reading a stat that said the Jazz were on the low side of games missed due to injuries/COVID protocols. Adds some context to their success I guess. But to his credit he's still producing and not missing games, so I have him fourth. Giannis is ahead, because well, I think he's been a better player and quietly having another great RS.

It's a shame Embiid missed games again this year, he is having an amazing season and per minute I'd probably put him right behind Jokic. The Sixers this year are +12 with him on, which is better than the Bucks when Giannis is on, and it's not really clear who has the better roster (I'd lean Bucks tbh). And lastly I have Luka and Kawhi right behind, Luka for just not being as good as the rest and Kawhi for missing games. A great postseason can bump any of these guys up though of course. Guys like LeBron/Harden/AD have quite some ground to cover if they wanna sniff the top 5.

6MOY - I truly think it's a shame that Clarkson will probably win this award in real life. He had a super hot start, but it turns out he's still that prototypical, relatively inefficient Crawford-type player that checks into games with the sole purpose of getting their own shots up, and I'm not really a fan of that. I'm not sure if Ingles qualifies, but I'd go with him over Clarkson. But a huge shoutout to Derrick Rose, and this is not a homer take at all, if he was with the Knicks for the whole season he would easily run away with it. The Knicks are 23-11 when he plays, good for a 55 win pace. Over the last 18 games where we've really started winning, he's putting up 18 ppg, 4.4 app and 1.5 tov on 62.3 TS% with a 14-4 record. It's amazing how much he's refined his game, his floater and jump shot are absolutely money right now.

MIP - I thought Wood was going to run away with it before the season began and it was looking like a good prediction at the beginning of the season. I now have a Randle shrine in every room of my home. :D

COY - This is a pretty stacked year for COY, Thibs, Snyder, Monty, Rivers, and McMillan all have cases. Depends on playoffs, so I'll put Thibs as my homer placeholder.

So post first round, think my POY ranking is now:

Jokic
Curry
Giannis/Gobert
Embiid
Kawhi
Luka

Mostly same order. Jokic and Curry maintain the top spots with the best combo of availability + level of play. Giannis dropped a little so Gobert caught up a bit, though I'm not overly impressed with either this playoffs, and I expect Embiid and possibly Kawhi to surpass them. I think Kawhi outplayed Luka, he had a modern Jordan-esque performance.

Shoutouts to Dame, Ja and Trae, little guys had great series' in the first round imo, but also Deandre Ayton. I thought he was the best player in the Lakers/Suns series (would like to hear more opinions about this). Just dominated defensively, and sure it's partly because the other Suns players could ignore the Lakers' shooters, but he's also looked great in the Denver series so far. Very Gobert-like, worse on defense but more refined offensive game. Maybe just maybe........he could end up as the DRob he was destined to be? :D
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#107 » by eminence » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:03 pm

The Suns-Lakers series is interesting for who the best player was for how much it shifted around. My thoughts by game:

Game 1: Booker/Ayton are great and lead the young Suns to the early lead, I'd lean Ayton, but hard to say. LeBron has a solid game by any non-LeBron standard. Bridges is solid, but nobody else with a particularly great game.

Game 2: LeBron/AD/Schroder all have big games and tie it up. I'd go LeBron for best, but close. Booker/Ayton are both great again, Bridges less solid. CP3 pretty much a non-factor through 2.

Game 3: LeBron/AD/Schroder again all very good, this one I'd give to AD, but close. For the Suns it's probably still one of Booker/Ayton, though neither are as good as the first two games.

Game 4: Suns bounce back with a team effort for the ages. All of the starters are good, CP3/Crowder make their first appearance in the series. On the other side LeBron has a very strong game, but AD goes down and nobody else really steps up.

Game 5: Suns blitz 'em in this one, and it's led by Booker. LeBron isn't terrible, but everyone else is and the Lakers throw in the towel early.

Game 6: Booker with a phenomenal closeout performance. AD goes down again, LeBron is good, but it's not enough.

Overall I think LeBron was probably the best player in the series by a small but clear margin, probably the most consistent and his best games only really overshadowed by Booker's game 6. Booker vs Ayton for best Sun is super close in my eyes, though I'd lean Booker by a hair.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#108 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:04 pm

Re: feeling like Gobert is underperforming right now.

I think what's happening here specifically is that Mitchell continues to look amazing in the playoffs as a scorer, and people have a tendency to have a zero-sum-ish credit allocation for team success.

I think everyone including Gobert agrees though that Mitchell is the offensive star of the team and that when he's got his mojo going, Gobert is going to be looking to get out of his way rather than rack up offensive stats.

I do think that if the Jazz end up winning titles around Mitchell being more impactful overall than Gobert that this is going to end up putting a lower ceiling on the esteem Gobert gets, but in a lot of ways the point is moot. The two guys lead different aspects of the Jazz and one guy being great at what he's great at shouldn't necessarily be used to say anything about the other guy.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#109 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:14 pm

eminence wrote:The Suns-Lakers series is interesting for who the best player was for how much it shifted around. My thoughts by game:

Game 1: Booker/Ayton are great and lead the young Suns to the early lead, I'd lean Ayton, but hard to say. LeBron has a solid game by any non-LeBron standard. Bridges is solid, but nobody else with a particularly great game.

Game 2: LeBron/AD/Schroder all have big games and tie it up. I'd go LeBron for best, but close. Booker/Ayton are both great again, Bridges less solid. CP3 pretty much a non-factor through 2.

Game 3: LeBron/AD/Schroder again all very good, this one I'd give to AD, but close. For the Suns it's probably still one of Booker/Ayton, though neither are as good as the first two games.

Game 4: Suns bounce back with a team effort for the ages. All of the starters are good, CP3/Crowder make their first appearance in the series. On the other side LeBron has a very strong game, but AD goes down and nobody else really steps up.

Game 5: Suns blitz 'em in this one, and it's led by Booker. LeBron isn't terrible, but everyone else is and the Lakers throw in the towel early.

Game 6: Booker with a phenomenal closeout performance. AD goes down again, LeBron is good, but it's not enough.

Overall I think LeBron was probably the best player in the series by a small but clear margin, probably the most consistent and his best games only real overshadowed by Booker's game 6. Booker vs Ayton for best Sun is super close in my eyes, though I'd lean Booker by a hair.


I tend to look at this stuff with a focus on who was most valuable for the team that won the game. Obviously the best player in a series can be a guy whose team gets swept in theory, but I like trying to understand how a team won.

In a nutshell:

Suns win because Davis isn't himself.
Lakers win because Davis is unstoppable when he's healthy.
Lakers win because Davis is unstoppable when he's healthy.
Suns win because Davis is hurt.
Suns win because Davis is hurt.
Suns win because Davis is hurt.

Okay so the answer to everything is "Davis", but since he wasn't himself in enough games, the Suns won.

Who led the team in the games where Davis' absence allow the Suns to win?

Game 1 - Booker
Game 4 - Ensemble
Game 5 - Booker
Game 6 - Booker

To me Booker is the clear MVP of the series.

Does that mean that he was literally a better player than LeBron? That's hard for me to say, but I will say that unlike, say, the 2015 Finals, we didn't come away from Game 6 thinking "LeBron's team lost but clearly he outshone anyone on the Suns". The story coming out of that game to end the series was that Booker found another gear (certainly benefitting from the lack of AD) and LeBron really didn't.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#110 » by eminence » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:16 pm

A) Mitchell has been great.

B) I'd like to point out that even with Mitchell on a heater and Gobert seemingly not having his best stretch, Gobert is still the clear +/- leader for the Jazz through 7 games. 9 guys who've played:

Royce - 249 minutes, +35 total
Bojan - 241 minutes, +44 total
Gobert - 232 minutes, +78 total
Ingles - 200 minutes, +33 total
Mitchell - 195 minutes, +53 total
Clarkson - 181 minutes, -12 total
Conley - 150 minutes, +51 total
Favors - 102 minutes, -23 total
Niang - 92 minutes, +19 total
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#111 » by Outside » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:08 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Re: feeling like Gobert is underperforming right now.

I think what's happening here specifically is that Mitchell continues to look amazing in the playoffs as a scorer, and people have a tendency to have a zero-sum-ish credit allocation for team success.

I think everyone including Gobert agrees though that Mitchell is the offensive star of the team and that when he's got his mojo going, Gobert is going to be looking to get out of his way rather than rack up offensive stats.

I do think that if the Jazz end up winning titles around Mitchell being more impactful overall than Gobert that this is going to end up putting a lower ceiling on the esteem Gobert gets, but in a lot of ways the point is moot. The two guys lead different aspects of the Jazz and one guy being great at what he's great at shouldn't necessarily be used to say anything about the other guy.


I ragged on Gobert as a POY candidate after game 1, but I'm coming here to praise him after game 2. I thought he was much better in all aspects.

Offensively, he didn't score much more (13 points vs 10 in game 1), but I thought he was significantly more impactful in game 2. I guess it's my thing with him, but I reeeeally like him to be a cutter toward the rim, and he did that much more in game 2. I'm including the times he dove to the rim and didn't get the ball (which was much more often than when he did). That kind of activity opens up the floor for his teammates, and they took advantage. It's remarkable how many times Ingles or Bogdanovic were open on the perimeter, and a good chunk of that is due to Gobert's activity.

Defensively, he was active all game long, including getting back in transition, and he minimized the impact of LA's bigs. The difference was immediately apparent when Gobert went out and Favors came in. He was merely good defensively in game 1, but he was DPOY-level in game 2.

This is the Gobert I want to see.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#112 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:18 pm

Outside wrote:I ragged on Gobert as a POY candidate after game 1, but I'm coming here to praise him after game 2. I thought he was much better in all aspects.

Offensively, he didn't score much more (13 points vs 10 in game 1), but I thought he was significantly more impactful in game 2. I guess it's my thing with him, but I reeeeally like him to be a cutter toward the rim, and he did that much more in game 2. I'm including the times he dove to the rim and didn't get the ball (which was much more often than when he did). That kind of activity opens up the floor for his teammates, and they took advantage. It's remarkable how many times Ingles or Bogdanovic were open on the perimeter, and a good chunk of that is due to Gobert's activity.

Defensively, he was active all game long, including getting back in transition, and he minimized the impact of LA's bigs. The difference was immediately apparent when Gobert went out and Favors came in. He was merely good defensively in game 1, but he was DPOY-level in game 2.

This is the Gobert I want to see.



I think so much of Gobert's offense is tied to Conley. Well not Conley so much as not just Mitchell/Clarkson playing my turn your turn. Looked at the box score at half time and Utah had something like 4 or 5 total assists. Both of those guys tend to be so basket focused and Mitchell in particular so rim focused that Gobert's rim running gets lost.

When Utah is at their best offensively is when its Gobert/Ingles/Bojan/Conley/either Mitchell or Clarkson and the ball movement and cutting is mid 10's Spurs like. It's beautiful and it just runs teams over with execution, decision-making, and of course shooting.

Without Conley the offense is far more rudimentary and Ingles and Bojan and Gobert can really get lost. Great when they are making their shots and they certainly were that first half, but that does not feel like a sustainable approach.


But back to his bread and butter and its just night and day how the LA stars look when Gobert and Favors are protecting the paint versus how KP/Boban/Powell/Kleber were not. WCS actually was pretty effective in his limited minutes. And Favors was showing up in all the highlights in game 1 because the Clippers were testing him and credit to him for blocks and forcing jump balls and making plays. Gobert is just such a deterrent.

Had a discussion with flpii in his thread where he talked about traditional rim protectors losing value in part because of the rise of the floater, so curious about that I checked and floaters are a pretty low percentage possession so forcing teams to take those as opposed to shooting at the rim/drawing contact is a massive difference for your defense. So sometimes it appears Gobert isn't impacting the game because you don't see him actively doing anything, but that deterrence remains constant and never takes a night off.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#113 » by bondom34 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:47 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Outside wrote:I ragged on Gobert as a POY candidate after game 1, but I'm coming here to praise him after game 2. I thought he was much better in all aspects.

Offensively, he didn't score much more (13 points vs 10 in game 1), but I thought he was significantly more impactful in game 2. I guess it's my thing with him, but I reeeeally like him to be a cutter toward the rim, and he did that much more in game 2. I'm including the times he dove to the rim and didn't get the ball (which was much more often than when he did). That kind of activity opens up the floor for his teammates, and they took advantage. It's remarkable how many times Ingles or Bogdanovic were open on the perimeter, and a good chunk of that is due to Gobert's activity.

Defensively, he was active all game long, including getting back in transition, and he minimized the impact of LA's bigs. The difference was immediately apparent when Gobert went out and Favors came in. He was merely good defensively in game 1, but he was DPOY-level in game 2.

This is the Gobert I want to see.



I think so much of Gobert's offense is tied to Conley. Well not Conley so much as not just Mitchell/Clarkson playing my turn your turn. Looked at the box score at half time and Utah had something like 4 or 5 total assists. Both of those guys tend to be so basket focused and Mitchell in particular so rim focused that Gobert's rim running gets lost.

When Utah is at their best offensively is when its Gobert/Ingles/Bojan/Conley/either Mitchell or Clarkson and the ball movement and cutting is mid 10's Spurs like. It's beautiful and it just runs teams over with execution, decision-making, and of course shooting.

Without Conley the offense is far more rudimentary and Ingles and Bojan and Gobert can really get lost. Great when they are making their shots and they certainly were that first half, but that does not feel like a sustainable approach.


But back to his bread and butter and its just night and day how the LA stars look when Gobert and Favors are protecting the paint versus how KP/Boban/Powell/Kleber were not. WCS actually was pretty effective in his limited minutes. And Favors was showing up in all the highlights in game 1 because the Clippers were testing him and credit to him for blocks and forcing jump balls and making plays. Gobert is just such a deterrent.

Had a discussion with flpii in his thread where he talked about traditional rim protectors losing value in part because of the rise of the floater, so curious about that I checked and floaters are a pretty low percentage possession so forcing teams to take those as opposed to shooting at the rim/drawing contact is a massive difference for your defense. So sometimes it appears Gobert isn't impacting the game because you don't see him actively doing anything, but that deterrence remains constant and never takes a night off.

Not really speaking to the rest of it, but also (using CTG's numbers) the Grizzlies took the most shots from floater range during the season and were 10th in accuracy from that range (short mid range). Quick glance at players and Ja and Jones both take a ton, Jones is also pretty accurate from that range, as is Slo Mo. Tillman too but he's a big.

Given the volume and accuracy to some extent the Grizzlies take them at, might be a case of it looking worse due to that (for that series).
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#114 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:00 pm

bondom34 wrote:Not really speaking to the rest of it, but also (using CTG's numbers) the Grizzlies took the most shots from floater range during the season and were 10th in accuracy from that range (short mid range). Quick glance at players and Ja and Jones both take a ton, Jones is also pretty accurate from that range, as is Slo Mo. Tillman too but he's a big.

Given the volume and accuracy to some extent the Grizzlies take them at, might be a case of it looking worse due to that (for that series).


The Grizzlies may be relatively accurate but outside of those 5 players I listed its a sub 1.0 possession which is really bad. And looking at how those players are on other shots its not even great for them.

It's a nice tool to have in your bag, but its like a mid-range jump shot. Only the best of the best should be taking them except as last recourse. They look great, but are quite inefficient by the numbers. So if Gobert's presence was encouraging them to take a bunch that's another factor in why that series wasn't very competitive after game 1.


Unless HP has his numbers wrong?
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#115 » by bondom34 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:15 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Not really speaking to the rest of it, but also (using CTG's numbers) the Grizzlies took the most shots from floater range during the season and were 10th in accuracy from that range (short mid range). Quick glance at players and Ja and Jones both take a ton, Jones is also pretty accurate from that range, as is Slo Mo. Tillman too but he's a big.

Given the volume and accuracy to some extent the Grizzlies take them at, might be a case of it looking worse due to that (for that series).


The Grizzlies may be relatively accurate but outside of those 5 players I listed its a sub 1.0 possession which is really bad. And looking at how those players are on other shots its not even great for them.

It's a nice tool to have in your bag, but its like a mid-range jump shot. Only the best of the best should be taking them except as last recourse. They look great, but are quite inefficient by the numbers. So if Gobert's presence was encouraging them to take a bunch that's another factor in why that series wasn't very competitive after game 1.


Unless HP has his numbers wrong?

Yep, its still a sub 1 point/possession shot (they're shooting under 50%), but they take an absolute ton of them, so it might have looked like a bigger thing than it was. They took them 29.4% of the time in the RS, 2nd place was Washington at 24.9%, so a pretty big gap.

Also in general for this w/ Gobert, the alternative to a team that's pretty decent from floater range is a team that won't take them and ends up doing what the Clippers did a lot of last night, driving into the lane, realizing "oh **** he's there!" and the possession ending in confusion.

Plus, when he was on court they still were at a 111.0 D Rtg. Overall its maybe the best of bad alternatives, and in theory if you're doing it well a little weakness if you can exploit it. Ultimately this wasn't a terribly close series and the Grizz offense was ranked 9th of 16 first round teams.

Edit: And looking at their playoff numbers floaters were a TON of what they did haha. They shot at the rim fairly well (though not sure how much of that is w/ Gobert on vs off, when I checked last night his on/off splits at the rim weren't that amazing iirc).
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#116 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:26 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Not really speaking to the rest of it, but also (using CTG's numbers) the Grizzlies took the most shots from floater range during the season and were 10th in accuracy from that range (short mid range). Quick glance at players and Ja and Jones both take a ton, Jones is also pretty accurate from that range, as is Slo Mo. Tillman too but he's a big.

Given the volume and accuracy to some extent the Grizzlies take them at, might be a case of it looking worse due to that (for that series).


The Grizzlies may be relatively accurate but outside of those 5 players I listed its a sub 1.0 possession which is really bad. And looking at how those players are on other shots its not even great for them.

It's a nice tool to have in your bag, but its like a mid-range jump shot. Only the best of the best should be taking them except as last recourse. They look great, but are quite inefficient by the numbers. So if Gobert's presence was encouraging them to take a bunch that's another factor in why that series wasn't very competitive after game 1.


Unless HP has his numbers wrong?

Yep, its still a sub 1 point/possession shot (they're shooting under 50%), but they take an absolute ton of them, so it might have looked like a bigger thing than it was. They took them 29.4% of the time in the RS, 2nd place was Washington at 24.9%, so a pretty big gap.

Also in general for this w/ Gobert, the alternative to a team that's pretty decent from floater range is a team that won't take them and ends up doing what the Clippers did a lot of last night, driving into the lane, realizing "oh **** he's there!" and the possession ending in confusion.

Plus, when he was on court they still were at a 111.0 D Rtg. Overall its maybe the best of bad alternatives, and in theory if you're doing it well a little weakness if you can exploit it. Ultimately this wasn't a terribly close series and the Grizz offense was ranked 9th of 16 first round teams.

Edit: And looking at their playoff numbers floaters were a TON of what they did haha. They shot at the rim fairly well (though not sure how much of that is w/ Gobert on vs off, when I checked last night his on/off splits at the rim weren't that amazing iirc).


is a sub 1 point shot bad by half court standards?

i thought half court was generally under 1 point per shot
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#117 » by bondom34 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:31 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
The Grizzlies may be relatively accurate but outside of those 5 players I listed its a sub 1.0 possession which is really bad. And looking at how those players are on other shots its not even great for them.

It's a nice tool to have in your bag, but its like a mid-range jump shot. Only the best of the best should be taking them except as last recourse. They look great, but are quite inefficient by the numbers. So if Gobert's presence was encouraging them to take a bunch that's another factor in why that series wasn't very competitive after game 1.


Unless HP has his numbers wrong?

Yep, its still a sub 1 point/possession shot (they're shooting under 50%), but they take an absolute ton of them, so it might have looked like a bigger thing than it was. They took them 29.4% of the time in the RS, 2nd place was Washington at 24.9%, so a pretty big gap.

Also in general for this w/ Gobert, the alternative to a team that's pretty decent from floater range is a team that won't take them and ends up doing what the Clippers did a lot of last night, driving into the lane, realizing "oh **** he's there!" and the possession ending in confusion.

Plus, when he was on court they still were at a 111.0 D Rtg. Overall its maybe the best of bad alternatives, and in theory if you're doing it well a little weakness if you can exploit it. Ultimately this wasn't a terribly close series and the Grizz offense was ranked 9th of 16 first round teams.

Edit: And looking at their playoff numbers floaters were a TON of what they did haha. They shot at the rim fairly well (though not sure how much of that is w/ Gobert on vs off, when I checked last night his on/off splits at the rim weren't that amazing iirc).


is a sub 1 point shot bad by half court standards?

i thought half court was generally under 1 point per shot

Didn't even think of that, but looking at the numbers they were at about 92 points/100 on half court possessions:

Image

And shot 39.9% on floaters (so a bit lower still). Though in perfect timing just saw this and had just mentioned similar, which is a separate issue that the Grizzlies exploited and Clippers are not:

https://theathletic.com/2647075/2021/06/11/defending-donovan-mitchell-and-trae-young-bucks-nets-balance-or-lack-thereof-analytical-lookaround/

While Mitchell is getting a lot of the plaudits in Utah jumping out to a 2-0 lead, spare a thought for Defensive Player of the Year Rudy Gobert. After some troubles in the first round against Memphis, the Stifle Tower has been back to his imposing best so far in this series. To some extent, this should be seen as an encouraging sign for Memphis as much as anything else. Ja Morant’s ability to explode to the basket was surely a huge part in the Grizzlies managing to make 28 of 43 shots (65.1 percent) at the rim against a Gobert contest, while the Clippers have been held to 8 of 17 through two games (47.1 percent), far more in line with the 50.1 percent Gobert allowed during the regular season.



Edit: Not sure what was going on here but opponents shooting better at the rim w/ Gobert in the postseason.

Image
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#118 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:44 pm

bondom34 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Yep, its still a sub 1 point/possession shot (they're shooting under 50%), but they take an absolute ton of them, so it might have looked like a bigger thing than it was. They took them 29.4% of the time in the RS, 2nd place was Washington at 24.9%, so a pretty big gap.

Also in general for this w/ Gobert, the alternative to a team that's pretty decent from floater range is a team that won't take them and ends up doing what the Clippers did a lot of last night, driving into the lane, realizing "oh **** he's there!" and the possession ending in confusion.

Plus, when he was on court they still were at a 111.0 D Rtg. Overall its maybe the best of bad alternatives, and in theory if you're doing it well a little weakness if you can exploit it. Ultimately this wasn't a terribly close series and the Grizz offense was ranked 9th of 16 first round teams.

Edit: And looking at their playoff numbers floaters were a TON of what they did haha. They shot at the rim fairly well (though not sure how much of that is w/ Gobert on vs off, when I checked last night his on/off splits at the rim weren't that amazing iirc).


is a sub 1 point shot bad by half court standards?

i thought half court was generally under 1 point per shot

Didn't even think of that, but looking at the numbers they were at about 92 points/100 on half court possessions:

Image

And shot 39.9% on floaters (so a bit lower still). Though in perfect timing just saw this and had just mentioned similar, which is a separate issue that the Grizzlies exploited and Clippers are not:

https://theathletic.com/2647075/2021/06/11/defending-donovan-mitchell-and-trae-young-bucks-nets-balance-or-lack-thereof-analytical-lookaround/

While Mitchell is getting a lot of the plaudits in Utah jumping out to a 2-0 lead, spare a thought for Defensive Player of the Year Rudy Gobert. After some troubles in the first round against Memphis, the Stifle Tower has been back to his imposing best so far in this series. To some extent, this should be seen as an encouraging sign for Memphis as much as anything else. Ja Morant’s ability to explode to the basket was surely a huge part in the Grizzlies managing to make 28 of 43 shots (65.1 percent) at the rim against a Gobert contest, while the Clippers have been held to 8 of 17 through two games (47.1 percent), far more in line with the 50.1 percent Gobert allowed during the regular season.



Edit: Not sure what was going on here but opponents shooting better at the rim w/ Gobert in the postseason.

Image


lots of possible explanations

above average competition in playoffs, small sample size, being forced into the perimeter more etc
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#119 » by Outside » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:51 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Spoiler:
falcolombardi wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Yep, its still a sub 1 point/possession shot (they're shooting under 50%), but they take an absolute ton of them, so it might have looked like a bigger thing than it was. They took them 29.4% of the time in the RS, 2nd place was Washington at 24.9%, so a pretty big gap.

Also in general for this w/ Gobert, the alternative to a team that's pretty decent from floater range is a team that won't take them and ends up doing what the Clippers did a lot of last night, driving into the lane, realizing "oh **** he's there!" and the possession ending in confusion.

Plus, when he was on court they still were at a 111.0 D Rtg. Overall its maybe the best of bad alternatives, and in theory if you're doing it well a little weakness if you can exploit it. Ultimately this wasn't a terribly close series and the Grizz offense was ranked 9th of 16 first round teams.

Edit: And looking at their playoff numbers floaters were a TON of what they did haha. They shot at the rim fairly well (though not sure how much of that is w/ Gobert on vs off, when I checked last night his on/off splits at the rim weren't that amazing iirc).


is a sub 1 point shot bad by half court standards?

i thought half court was generally under 1 point per shot

Didn't even think of that, but looking at the numbers they were at about 92 points/100 on half court possessions:

Image

And shot 39.9% on floaters (so a bit lower still). Though in perfect timing just saw this and had just mentioned similar, which is a separate issue that the Grizzlies exploited and Clippers are not:

https://theathletic.com/2647075/2021/06/11/defending-donovan-mitchell-and-trae-young-bucks-nets-balance-or-lack-thereof-analytical-lookaround/

While Mitchell is getting a lot of the plaudits in Utah jumping out to a 2-0 lead, spare a thought for Defensive Player of the Year Rudy Gobert. After some troubles in the first round against Memphis, the Stifle Tower has been back to his imposing best so far in this series. To some extent, this should be seen as an encouraging sign for Memphis as much as anything else. Ja Morant’s ability to explode to the basket was surely a huge part in the Grizzlies managing to make 28 of 43 shots (65.1 percent) at the rim against a Gobert contest, while the Clippers have been held to 8 of 17 through two games (47.1 percent), far more in line with the 50.1 percent Gobert allowed during the regular season.



Edit: Not sure what was going on here but opponents shooting better at the rim w/ Gobert in the postseason.

Image


It's hard to tell without also seeing attempts. Maybe Memphis and LAC are only shooting at the rim when they have a dunk or near-sure shot and are avoiding contested shots. Like Chuck mentioned earlier, Gobert is exerting himself as a deterrent, and LAC at least isn't even trying him most of the time.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#120 » by bondom34 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:58 pm

Outside wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Spoiler:
falcolombardi wrote:
is a sub 1 point shot bad by half court standards?

i thought half court was generally under 1 point per shot

Didn't even think of that, but looking at the numbers they were at about 92 points/100 on half court possessions:

Image

And shot 39.9% on floaters (so a bit lower still). Though in perfect timing just saw this and had just mentioned similar, which is a separate issue that the Grizzlies exploited and Clippers are not:

https://theathletic.com/2647075/2021/06/11/defending-donovan-mitchell-and-trae-young-bucks-nets-balance-or-lack-thereof-analytical-lookaround/

While Mitchell is getting a lot of the plaudits in Utah jumping out to a 2-0 lead, spare a thought for Defensive Player of the Year Rudy Gobert. After some troubles in the first round against Memphis, the Stifle Tower has been back to his imposing best so far in this series. To some extent, this should be seen as an encouraging sign for Memphis as much as anything else. Ja Morant’s ability to explode to the basket was surely a huge part in the Grizzlies managing to make 28 of 43 shots (65.1 percent) at the rim against a Gobert contest, while the Clippers have been held to 8 of 17 through two games (47.1 percent), far more in line with the 50.1 percent Gobert allowed during the regular season.



Edit: Not sure what was going on here but opponents shooting better at the rim w/ Gobert in the postseason.

Image


It's hard to tell without also seeing attempts. Maybe Memphis and LAC are only shooting at the rim when they have a dunk or near-sure shot and are avoiding contested shots. Like Chuck mentioned earlier, Gobert is exerting himself as a deterrent, and LAC at least isn't even trying him most of the time.

Yep and this is the thing wrt floaters mentioned. Was watching a twitch postgame show and Dakhil kept saying its better to just ultimately go and attack if you're going against Gobert instead of just doing what LAC is doing and not even really challenging him. It was perfectly encapsulated in that late game possession Bev went to the lane and Gobert wasn't even really close, but he still looked a bit afraid to shoot because of the presence of him on court and it ended up a lost possession.

Edited: Removed the last part. But looks like the Clippers are shooting way worse at the rim w/ him on and the Grizz were better from what I can tell. Not sure why.
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