2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#121 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:45 pm

bondom34 wrote:Edited: Removed the last part. But looks like the Clippers are shooting way worse at the rim w/ him on and the Grizz were better from what I can tell. Not sure why.


Do you have a source for who was shooting at the rim? If most attempts are Ja/JV that makes sense. Ja is explosive and JV can muscle just about everyone in the league.

As for the Clippers I think Kawhi and PG are really comfortable shooting jumpers and so why go face the DPOY. Kawhi will definitely take it to the rim as he did against Dallas forcing them to that zone, but he's so good from mid-range if that's what you give him he will just take it over and over again. And who else on that team besides Zubac is a threat at the rim? Batum I guess?
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#122 » by bondom34 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:53 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Edited: Removed the last part. But looks like the Clippers are shooting way worse at the rim w/ him on and the Grizz were better from what I can tell. Not sure why.


Do you have a source for who was shooting at the rim? If most attempts are Ja/JV that makes sense. Ja is explosive and JV can muscle just about everyone in the league.

As for the Clippers I think Kawhi and PG are really comfortable shooting jumpers and so why go face the DPOY. Kawhi will definitely take it to the rim as he did against Dallas forcing them to that zone, but he's so good from mid-range if that's what you give him he will just take it over and over again. And who else on that team besides Zubac is a threat at the rim? Batum I guess?

Pulling from NBA.com, Morant, Brooks, and Val all shot a bunch and well. Val I do remember was having a great time with that matchup I believe (which seems to happen with centers where some are just more matchup dependent vs a specific opposing center). Think Adams used to get him pretty well too.

But from there, the Grizzlies' top guys at the rim were just way better in terms of a mix of volume and efficiency as you said:

Image

But looking back at that series I'd already forgotten how great Val was in that matchup too.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#123 » by eminence » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:57 pm

Looking roughly at the 9 game stretch both Mitchell/Conley missed to end the season for the Jazz.

6-3 Record
120.0 Ortg
111.2 Drtg
+8.8 Net

Rotation Stats:
Bojan 32.8 mpg, 26.2 ppg @ 67.3 TS%, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, +74
Clarkson 30.7 mpg, 23.1 ppg @ 55.9 TS%, 4.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, +14
Ingles 30.2 mpg, 12.2 ppg @ 56.7 TS%, 3.4 rpg, 6.8 apg, +63
Gobert 29.4 mpg, 13.2 ppg @ 69.9 TS%, 13.0 rpg, 1.0 apg, +61
O'Neale 29.3 mpg, 7.3 ppg @ 62.4 TS%, 5.6 rpg, 2.7 apg, +57
Niang 24.2 mpg, 12.1 ppg @ 64.5 TS%, 2.4 rpg, 1.2 apg, +86
Forrest 18.7 mpg, 6.8 ppg @ 59.2 TS%, 3.3 rpg, 2.6 apg, +16
Favors 14.6 mpg, 4.6 ppg @ 73.0 TS%, 5.7 rpg, 0.3 apg, +14
Oni 11.6 mpg, 1.5 ppg @ 50.0 TS%, 1.6 rpg, 1.4 apg, +4

The Ingles/Royce/Bojan/Niang/Gobert lineup by far the best, going +60 in 77 minutes, other higher minute lineups seemed to range from slightly above to slightly below zero.

Game by game results:
4/28 - A smashing (+45) of the Kings missing Fox/Barnes.
4/30 - A big loss (-21) to the Suns minus Crowder.
5/1 - Close win (+4) to the Raptors down Lowry/Boucher.
5/3 - Convincing win (+11) over the Spurs down White (missed half the season).
5/5 - Blast the Spurs (+32) with White still out.
5/7 - Win over the Nuggets (+7) down most of their guard rotation (Murray/Morris/Dozier/Barton).
5/8 - Beat Houston (+8) who had a lot of guys out as always this season.
5/10 - Lose at GS (-3) to a healthy Warriors squad (obviously -Klay).
5/12 - Lose to the Blazers (-7) who were healthy.

Obviously difficult to take too much, but overall I'd say they looked like about a low playoff/high play-in level team without Conley/Mitchell.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#124 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:21 am

Welp, so no more Jokic games. Sad on a number of levels.

He's still #1 on my list right now, and he's not going to just tumble away, but others still have a chance to impress.

I think the guy who is the obvious guy is Joel Embiid, but I think it's worth really discussing about Rudy Gobert.

Can he be #1 on your list? If not, why not? The limitations his game are clear, but if he shows profound impact marching all the way through, he'll be a very strong candidate for me.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#125 » by falcolombardi » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:24 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Welp, so no more Jokic games. Sad on a number of levels.

He's still #1 on my list right now, and he's not going to just tumble away, but others still have a chance to impress.

I think the guy who is the obvious guy is Joel Embiid, but I think it's worth really discussing about Rudy Gobert.

Can he be #1 on your list? If not, why not? The limitations his game are clear, but if he shows profound impact marching all the way through, he'll be a very strong candidate for me.


what did you think about jokic series with nuggets? i know he doesnt have Murray but the difference in the offense, team wise and individually with the blazers series is Striking

makes the blazers series lose some shine in retrospective to you?i
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#126 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:44 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Welp, so no more Jokic games. Sad on a number of levels.

He's still #1 on my list right now, and he's not going to just tumble away, but others still have a chance to impress.

I think the guy who is the obvious guy is Joel Embiid, but I think it's worth really discussing about Rudy Gobert.

Can he be #1 on your list? If not, why not? The limitations his game are clear, but if he shows profound impact marching all the way through, he'll be a very strong candidate for me.


what did you think about jokic series with nuggets? i know he doesnt have Murray but the difference in the offense, team wise and individually with the blazers series is Striking

makes the blazers series lose some shine in retrospective to you?i

I think sometimes we have to take our hats off to teams that have defended superstars well. Jokic was still Jokic out there, but the Suns really clamped down on everyone.

If Nikola had a star and he still had an inability to play well against great defense it would be troublesome. But I think considering he is the focal point of his team and he had no other star (and even if he did, say MPJ, they were struggling even more in the games they played together), it makes sense to shake the Suns hands on that one.

I often think that when ever players do below their means, especially those on non contending team it seems like we rarely if ever give credit to the defense, and instead just say that the player played poorly.

In many ways it almost reinforces this idea that defense doesn't matter, because even when it clearly very does matter we largely assume it was just because the offense wasn't good enough.


And with all this being said, there was a very relevant topic in regards to David Robinson's scoring drop off in the post season in the all time franchise peak threads. If someone like Jokic who very much has a resilient post season skill set can get beat on, there is really no reason to punish players like Robinson who never had great 2nd options during the years he was seen as a playoff shrimp.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#127 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:25 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Welp, so no more Jokic games. Sad on a number of levels.

He's still #1 on my list right now, and he's not going to just tumble away, but others still have a chance to impress.

I think the guy who is the obvious guy is Joel Embiid, but I think it's worth really discussing about Rudy Gobert.

Can he be #1 on your list? If not, why not? The limitations his game are clear, but if he shows profound impact marching all the way through, he'll be a very strong candidate for me.


what did you think about jokic series with nuggets? i know he doesnt have Murray but the difference in the offense, team wise and individually with the blazers series is Striking

makes the blazers series lose some shine in retrospective to you?i


Well, just for perspective, here's what ORtg the Suns have allowed during their 7 game playoff win streak:

Lakers Game 4: 97.4
Lakers Game 5: 84.9
Lakers Game 6: 114.5 (remember Suns had a blowout lead early)
Nuggets Game 1: 111.4
Nuggets Game 2: 100.3
Nuggets Game 3: 107.0
Nuggets Game 4: 112.8

I realize that in the regular season the Nuggets were already the better offensive team and that AD's injury was a big thing in the Lakers series, but I think it's important to understand that the Suns' defense has been a real tear since before the Denver series, and that if you're thinking "The Suns shut down the Nuggets" but don't have that though about the Lakers, you might be being influenced by the fact that the Suns had a comfortable sweep on the Nuggets and think the Denver's offense was doing worse than it was.

Consider the Nuggets offense was missing Jamal Murray, and Michael Porter Jr. just didn't look healthy either, this kind of performance against a strong defense doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I also think we need to specifically shout out DeAndre Ayton as a defender of Jokic. He didn't just make Jokic work, he allowed the Suns to keep their other defenders on their men. I'd love to see what happens if Phoenix & Philly were in the finals. It may be that Embiid is just too much for even Ayton, but the Suns have to be feeling great about their #1 overall pick's defensive growth.

Additionally, when comparing the two Suns series, frankly the big difference was the Suns offense against the Nuggets:

vs the Lakers: 111.9
vs the Nuggets: 124.0

And of course that's built on the backbone of a backcourt average 50 PPG on absurd efficiency, particularly in the case of Paul.

A major question going forward is how much the Suns can expect Paul to sustain his 25 PPG on 74% TS against a backcourt opposition that isn't Monte Morris, Facundo Compazzo & Austin Rivers. If he can keep up something like this - which is really unprecedented in Paul's career - then this is about Paul with Booker & the Suns in the context of modern officiating (sigh). If he can't, then it's about a woefully inadequate (and injury-hampered) Nuggets backcourt.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#128 » by falcolombardi » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Welp, so no more Jokic games. Sad on a number of levels.

He's still #1 on my list right now, and he's not going to just tumble away, but others still have a chance to impress.

I think the guy who is the obvious guy is Joel Embiid, but I think it's worth really discussing about Rudy Gobert.

Can he be #1 on your list? If not, why not? The limitations his game are clear, but if he shows profound impact marching all the way through, he'll be a very strong candidate for me.


what did you think about jokic series with nuggets? i know he doesnt have Murray but the difference in the offense, team wise and individually with the blazers series is Striking

makes the blazers series lose some shine in retrospective to you?i


Well, just for perspective, here's what ORtg the Suns have allowed during their 7 game playoff win streak:

Lakers Game 4: 97.4
Lakers Game 5: 84.9
Lakers Game 6: 114.5 (remember Suns had a blowout lead early)
Nuggets Game 1: 111.4
Nuggets Game 2: 100.3
Nuggets Game 3: 107.0
Nuggets Game 4: 112.8

I realize that in the regular season the Nuggets were already the better offensive team and that AD's injury was a big thing in the Lakers series, but I think it's important to understand that the Suns' defense has been a real tear since before the Denver series, and that if you're thinking "The Suns shut down the Nuggets" but don't have that though about the Lakers, you might be being influenced by the fact that the Suns had a comfortable sweep on the Nuggets and think the Denver's offense was doing worse than it was.

Consider the Nuggets offense was missing Jamal Murray, and Michael Porter Jr. just didn't look healthy either, this kind of performance against a strong defense doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I also think we need to specifically shout out DeAndre Ayton as a defender of Jokic. He didn't just make Jokic work, he allowed the Suns to keep their other defenders on their men. I'd love to see what happens if Phoenix & Philly were in the finals. It may be that Embiid is just too much for even Ayton, but the Suns have to be feeling great about their #1 overall pick's defensive growth.

Additionally, when comparing the two Suns series, frankly the big difference was the Suns offense against the Nuggets:

vs the Lakers: 111.9
vs the Nuggets: 124.0

And of course that's built on the backbone of a backcourt average 50 PPG on absurd efficiency, particularly in the case of Paul.

A major question going forward is how much the Suns can expect Paul to sustain his 25 PPG on 74% TS against a backcourt opposition that isn't Monte Morris, Facundo Compazzo & Austin Rivers. If he can keep up something like this - which is really unprecedented in Paul's career - then this is about Paul with Booker & the Suns in the context of modern officiating (sigh). If he can't, then it's about a woefully inadequate (and injury-hampered) Nuggets backcourt.


officiating or spacing? i mean, the 2010's didnt even have better offensive ratings that the 3 point less 80's until 2020, 1991 for example had a much higher offensive rating that 2016 despite no 3 point spacing. and that era was supposed to have tougher reffing

i find it hard to believe refs suddenly changed the way they officiate so much to explain a near 2 point jump then got even "softer" in 2021 to explain another
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#129 » by eminence » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:06 pm

Jokic ends with a bit of a thud. Will certainly be on the ballot, unsure where yet, I'd certainly take his season over Curry for guys who've finished but have a chance to end up on the ballot. I think a fair amount of those defensive problems that Paul took advantage of can be laid at Jokics feet. I certainly don't think Murray being back would've significantly slowed him, just would have turned it into a closer shootout.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#130 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:50 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
A major question going forward is how much the Suns can expect Paul to sustain his 25 PPG on 74% TS against a backcourt opposition that isn't Monte Morris, Facundo Compazzo & Austin Rivers. If he can keep up something like this - which is really unprecedented in Paul's career - then this is about Paul with Booker & the Suns in the context of modern officiating (sigh). If he can't, then it's about a woefully inadequate (and injury-hampered) Nuggets backcourt.


officiating or spacing? i mean, the 2010's didnt even have better offensive ratings that the 3 point less 80's until 2020, 1991 for example had a much higher offensive rating that 2016 despite no 3 point spacing. and that era was supposed to have tougher reffing

i find it hard to believe refs suddenly changed the way they officiate so much to explain a near 2 point jump then got even "softer" in 2021 to explain another


Hmm, so I want to be clear here:

Pace & space is the reason why offenses are going nuts in general, but you saw what Paul was doing to get those fouls against the Nuggets right? If you had the volume on and listened to the commentators (which frankly I understand if you didn't), they just kept saying it over again:

"This is what Paul is great at, drawing fouls when the opponent is in the penalty."

Consider this. When we typically think about free throws, we think about someone shooting the ball right?

In the playoffs so far for Paul:

Shooting fouls drawn: 6 (6th on the Suns)
Free throws taken: 34 (2nd on the Suns, and as you know, this is mostly the Nuggets series as he was hurting before)

This is just crazy don't you think?

For comparison, here's what Paul's numbers in these stats looked like when he was in the playoffs of his near-MVP year:

Shooting fouls drawn: 31 (1st on NO)
Free throws taken: 79 (1st on NO)

Very impressive, but a much more reasonable ratio.

What Paul's done is master the ability to get on the free throw line by diving in non-shooting situations, and that's the thing that's really changed about how refs are calling things.

I don't blame Paul for doing this, and he's not the only one doing this, but my goodness is it out of control right now, and this is why I've been saying with growing alarm over the years that the officiating is getting more and more problematic and desperately needs a philosophical reset.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#131 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:In the playoffs so far for Paul:

Shooting fouls drawn: 6 (6th on the Suns)
Free throws taken: 34 (2nd on the Suns)

This is just crazy don't you think?



Do you have the data on how many of these FT's are from the end of games? With such a small sample size a lot of that may simply be he's going to have the ball at the end of games as the PG and best FT shooter on the team. May be less manipulation and more doing exactly what you'd want him to be doing--sealing games at the line when the other team is forced to foul.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#132 » by bondom34 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:58 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:In the playoffs so far for Paul:

Shooting fouls drawn: 6 (6th on the Suns)
Free throws taken: 34 (2nd on the Suns)

This is just crazy don't you think?



Do you have the data on how many of these FT's are from the end of games? With such a small sample size a lot of that may simply be he's going to have the ball at the end of games as the PG and best FT shooter on the team. May be less manipulation and more doing exactly what you'd want him to be doing--sealing games at the line when the other team is forced to foul.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=FTA&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&TeamID=1610612756&PerMode=Totals

From NBA.com, he's taken 7 4th quarter FTs this year in the playoffs. Booker at 21, Cam Johnson 2nd at 11.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#133 » by Colbinii » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:59 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:In the playoffs so far for Paul:

Shooting fouls drawn: 6 (6th on the Suns)
Free throws taken: 34 (2nd on the Suns)

This is just crazy don't you think?



Do you have the data on how many of these FT's are from the end of games? With such a small sample size a lot of that may simply be he's going to have the ball at the end of games as the PG and best FT shooter on the team. May be less manipulation and more doing exactly what you'd want him to be doing--sealing games at the line when the other team is forced to foul.


I think Paul is 10/10 in the fourth quarter for free throws in the series.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#134 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:03 pm

eminence wrote:Jokic ends with a bit of a thud. Will certainly be on the ballot, unsure where yet, I'd certainly take his season over Curry for guys who've finished but have a chance to end up on the ballot. I think a fair amount of those defensive problems that Paul took advantage of can be laid at Jokics feet. I certainly don't think Murray being back would've significantly slowed him, just would have turned it into a closer shootout.


I don't want to pretend Jokic doesn't have defensive issues, but I struggle with the idea that we should blame Jokic for Paul racking up the foul calls when Jokic wasn't the one being called for those fouls most of the time.

Fun fact: Campazzo is currently tied (with PG) for the lead in Personal Fouls in the playoffs and Rivers is the #2 guard on the list. Both of them along with Porter have WAY more fouls called on them than Jokic, who had been the team's main fouler in last year's playoffs.

While I understand the fact that having a better defensive anchor behind you can help you perform better in man defense, sometimes it's really just about guy being easily baited into moves that will be called for a foul.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#135 » by eminence » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:31 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:Jokic ends with a bit of a thud. Will certainly be on the ballot, unsure where yet, I'd certainly take his season over Curry for guys who've finished but have a chance to end up on the ballot. I think a fair amount of those defensive problems that Paul took advantage of can be laid at Jokics feet. I certainly don't think Murray being back would've significantly slowed him, just would have turned it into a closer shootout.


I don't want to pretend Jokic doesn't have defensive issues, but I struggle with the idea that we should blame Jokic for Paul racking up the foul calls when Jokic wasn't the one being called for those fouls most of the time.

Fun fact: Campazzo is currently tied (with PG) for the lead in Personal Fouls in the playoffs and Rivers is the #2 guard on the list. Both of them along with Porter have WAY more fouls called on them than Jokic, who had been the team's main fouler in last year's playoffs.

While I understand the fact that having a better defensive anchor behind you can help you perform better in man defense, sometimes it's really just about guy being easily baited into moves that will be called for a foul.


The Suns did well getting to the line (about as well as the Blazers), but I don't think that was the primary problem (or near it). If CP3 had missed all of his FTs and gone 0/22 from the line in this series he's still have a TS% of 58.2. He cooked them on the court, his eFG% was 67.8%. That's very slightly higher than Kawhi against Dallas, which was rightfully noted as one of the most efficient scoring series ever. The Denver guards had no shot hanging through the screens with the Denver bigs (namely Jokic) in that deep of drop.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#136 » by Peregrine01 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:03 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
A major question going forward is how much the Suns can expect Paul to sustain his 25 PPG on 74% TS against a backcourt opposition that isn't Monte Morris, Facundo Compazzo & Austin Rivers. If he can keep up something like this - which is really unprecedented in Paul's career - then this is about Paul with Booker & the Suns in the context of modern officiating (sigh). If he can't, then it's about a woefully inadequate (and injury-hampered) Nuggets backcourt.


officiating or spacing? i mean, the 2010's didnt even have better offensive ratings that the 3 point less 80's until 2020, 1991 for example had a much higher offensive rating that 2016 despite no 3 point spacing. and that era was supposed to have tougher reffing

i find it hard to believe refs suddenly changed the way they officiate so much to explain a near 2 point jump then got even "softer" in 2021 to explain another


Hmm, so I want to be clear here:

Pace & space is the reason why offenses are going nuts in general, but you saw what Paul was doing to get those fouls against the Nuggets right? If you had the volume on and listened to the commentators (which frankly I understand if you didn't), they just kept saying it over again:

"This is what Paul is great at, drawing fouls when the opponent is in the penalty."

Consider this. When we typically think about free throws, we think about someone shooting the ball right?

In the playoffs so far for Paul:

Shooting fouls drawn: 6 (6th on the Suns)
Free throws taken: 34 (2nd on the Suns, and as you know, this is mostly the Nuggets series as he was hurting before)

This is just crazy don't you think?

For comparison, here's what Paul's numbers in these stats looked like when he was in the playoffs of his near-MVP year:

Shooting fouls drawn: 31 (1st on NO)
Free throws taken: 79 (1st on NO)

Very impressive, but a much more reasonable ratio.

What Paul's done is master the ability to get on the free throw line by diving in non-shooting situations, and that's the thing that's really changed about how refs are calling things.

I don't blame Paul for doing this, and he's not the only one doing this, but my goodness is it out of control right now, and this is why I've been saying with growing alarm over the years that the officiating is getting more and more problematic and desperately needs a philosophical reset.


As great as CP is, this is something that I absolutely cannot stand about his game and the reason why I refuse to watch him. It's legal but it's grotesque.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#137 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:55 am

eminence wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:Jokic ends with a bit of a thud. Will certainly be on the ballot, unsure where yet, I'd certainly take his season over Curry for guys who've finished but have a chance to end up on the ballot. I think a fair amount of those defensive problems that Paul took advantage of can be laid at Jokics feet. I certainly don't think Murray being back would've significantly slowed him, just would have turned it into a closer shootout.


I don't want to pretend Jokic doesn't have defensive issues, but I struggle with the idea that we should blame Jokic for Paul racking up the foul calls when Jokic wasn't the one being called for those fouls most of the time.

Fun fact: Campazzo is currently tied (with PG) for the lead in Personal Fouls in the playoffs and Rivers is the #2 guard on the list. Both of them along with Porter have WAY more fouls called on them than Jokic, who had been the team's main fouler in last year's playoffs.

While I understand the fact that having a better defensive anchor behind you can help you perform better in man defense, sometimes it's really just about guy being easily baited into moves that will be called for a foul.


The Suns did well getting to the line (about as well as the Blazers), but I don't think that was the primary problem (or near it). If CP3 had missed all of his FTs and gone 0/22 from the line in this series he's still have a TS% of 58.2. He cooked them on the court, his eFG% was 67.8%. That's very slightly higher than Kawhi against Dallas, which was rightfully noted as one of the most efficient scoring series ever. The Denver guards had no shot hanging through the screens with the Denver bigs (namely Jokic) in that deep of drop.


To be clear, above all else:

I think it's beyond clear who the better team was, but you're specifically commenting on the sweep aspect of things as a reason to be disappointed with Jokic, so I think it's important to be able to push back without others confusing this for excuses as to why Phoenix won.

Second thing:

There's absolutely no doubt that when Paul got going, he was reliably hitting shots that required a good deal of skill. I think it's important to distinguish between purely bad defense and a guy gaining his rhythm. Yes better defenses are better at preventing a guy from getting rhythm, and I'm not suggesting it shouldn't count in the ol' DRtg, but I'd think most would agree that Paul is playing particularly well now in a way he wasn't even at the beginning of the series.

Alright then I think my main commentary on your statement about "FTs aside, what about the FGs!", and I get that, but you know it's not precisely correct to separate them. One of the benefits of drawing fouls is that defenders have to give you more space to avoid drawing more fouls - the refs are effectively saying "You're guarding him too close, give him more space". And the more space they give you of course, the easier they are to attack.

And incidentally this is an argument against Paul growing too much in physical capacity from series start to series end - that perhaps it was more about Paul realizing that based on what the refs were calling for him, Denver had no one who could actually stop him. I'd imagine the real answer is that it was partially about physical improvement, partly about physical rhythm, and partly about savvy adaptation.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#138 » by eminence » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:29 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I don't want to pretend Jokic doesn't have defensive issues, but I struggle with the idea that we should blame Jokic for Paul racking up the foul calls when Jokic wasn't the one being called for those fouls most of the time.

Fun fact: Campazzo is currently tied (with PG) for the lead in Personal Fouls in the playoffs and Rivers is the #2 guard on the list. Both of them along with Porter have WAY more fouls called on them than Jokic, who had been the team's main fouler in last year's playoffs.

While I understand the fact that having a better defensive anchor behind you can help you perform better in man defense, sometimes it's really just about guy being easily baited into moves that will be called for a foul.


The Suns did well getting to the line (about as well as the Blazers), but I don't think that was the primary problem (or near it). If CP3 had missed all of his FTs and gone 0/22 from the line in this series he's still have a TS% of 58.2. He cooked them on the court, his eFG% was 67.8%. That's very slightly higher than Kawhi against Dallas, which was rightfully noted as one of the most efficient scoring series ever. The Denver guards had no shot hanging through the screens with the Denver bigs (namely Jokic) in that deep of drop.


To be clear, above all else:

I think it's beyond clear who the better team was, but you're specifically commenting on the sweep aspect of things as a reason to be disappointed with Jokic, so I think it's important to be able to push back without others confusing this for excuses as to why Phoenix won.

Second thing:

There's absolutely no doubt that when Paul got going, he was reliably hitting shots that required a good deal of skill. I think it's important to distinguish between purely bad defense and a guy gaining his rhythm. Yes better defenses are better at preventing a guy from getting rhythm, and I'm not suggesting it shouldn't count in the ol' DRtg, but I'd think most would agree that Paul is playing particularly well now in a way he wasn't even at the beginning of the series.

Alright then I think my main commentary on your statement about "FTs aside, what about the FGs!", and I get that, but you know it's not precisely correct to separate them. One of the benefits of drawing fouls is that defenders have to give you more space to avoid drawing more fouls - the refs are effectively saying "You're guarding him too close, give him more space". And the more space they give you of course, the easier they are to attack.

And incidentally this is an argument against Paul growing too much in physical capacity from series start to series end - that perhaps it was more about Paul realizing that based on what the refs were calling for him, Denver had no one who could actually stop him. I'd imagine the real answer is that it was partially about physical improvement, partly about physical rhythm, and partly about savvy adaptation.


The margin more specifically than the fact it was a sweep.

The two certainly feed one another (drawing fouls/getting space to hit shots), but that wasn't quite what I was trying to focus on, but that CP3 simply didn't draw that many fouls. 21 fouls drawn over 4 games is not a particularly elite rate (tied for 9th in the 2nd round so far). Selling it as the core point/particularly notable seems off to me. But I guess, if that's what jumped off the screen to you.

When I watched the series the thing that jumped off the screen to me in the Nuggets defense was not how often they were fouling guards (though they weren't good at it), but that Jokic was in a deep deep drop that effectively left their guards in a 1 on 2 every possession while Jokic brought little to no defensive value.

And that MPJs defensive awareness is still quite bad - but that's not really a discussion for this thread.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#139 » by Ambrose » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:51 pm

Jokic ended on a bad note, Giannis may as well, Gobert's play has been down, CP3 might miss some time, Kawhi might be done, the Nets guys haven't played enough...the already eliminated crowd might somehow be gaining ground :lol:
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#140 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:20 am

I've been considering Nate McMillan for my ballot for a while now. Anyone else?

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