2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#21 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu May 13, 2021 2:39 am

Colbinii wrote:
Outside wrote:
eminence wrote:The goal of a decent xRAPM is not to put together a definitive list of the best players in the game, it's to put together a stable list of the players producing the highest +/- numbers on their teams/around the league. It's like complaining about BPG because it has Myles Turner over LeBron.


I get that. It's just a tool, and it's not the only one I use in my assessment. But the folks creating LEBRON have figured out how to adjust for role so that you don't have to filter that out yourself. By including role as a field in their data, you can even sort on it if you want to compare players with the same assigned role. It's not perfect, but (to me) it's a more helpful tool for assessing something like POY.

If you want to go further, RAPM was intended as a multi-year assessment tool, not a single-season one, but that doesn't stop any of us from using it for single-season assessment. I have more confidence in an assessment that includes an RAPM metric than one that relies on box score stats alone.

Many of you are more well-versed in advanced metrics than I am, and if anyone has other impact metrics besides LEBRON that they recommend, I'm willing to consider adding that to my toolbox. I used to incorporate PIPM, but the source I used for that stopped producing data.


EPM is good.


Yup EPM is good https://dunksandthrees.com/epm

Some other metrics I might recommed are:

RAPTOR-https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Darko Plus-Minus-https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

Backpicks Stats such as Backpicks BPM, etc. (behind paywall)- https://backpicks.com/metrics/2021-players/
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#22 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu May 13, 2021 2:42 am

Colbinii wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Outside wrote:As we're nearing the end of the regular season, here's where I have the POY race.

Jokic
(gap)
Giannis
Gobert
Curry
Doncic
Embiid
Kawhi

In most seasons, it's common for me to use the PS as the decider, with the guy leading his team to the title having the inside track. This year, the gap between Jokic and the field is big, so it may take a total flameout by Jokic and the Nuggets in the PS to knock him from the top spot. With all their injuries (not just Murray, six guys are on their injury report) the Nuggets are really vulnerable, and a first round exit isn't out of the question. Even if that happens, if Jokic performs well (as he usually does), that will likely be enough, though an otherworldly PS performance by Giannis or Gobert leading their team to the title would make me rethink that.

For Embiid and Kawhi, the missed games drop them to the back of the pack for me, but they could leapfrog everyone other than Jokic with strong performances by them and their teams in the PS.

The wild cards are the Nets, Lakers, and Suns. For the Nets and Lakers, if they regain their health and get to the finals, then somebody from their team is going to enter the picture, even as high as second on my POY list if they win the title, but the deficit of missed games in the RS is too big of a hurdle to pass Jokic.

For the Suns, it's not missed games; they just don't have anyone who merits being in that top group based on the RS. I can appreciate narrative, and I recognize that they have the second best record in the league, which means somebody there is doing something excellent, but Chris Paul and Booker just don't have the stats or metrics to justify being on the list. Again, like with the Nets and Lakers, if the Suns do well in the PS, then Paul or Booker are likely jumping into the mix, even potentially as high as second if they win the title, but I cannot see a scenario where they pass Jokic.

I'm using BBall Reference's season leaders page and LEBRON rankings (primarily LEBRON and wins added).

I don't use the Englemann/ESPN RPM because he doesn't publish his formula and his system consistently results in a disturbing number of outliers. Other RAPM lists I've looked at have similar issues, but I'm open to using another metric that someone likes for single-season assessment.


Englemann is no longer with ESPN. ESPN has redone RPM since he has left.


And it is now a trash All-in-one.


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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#23 » by Doctor MJ » Sun May 16, 2021 12:59 am

Glad to see y'all jumping in the pool.

I'll share some thoughts on this weekend on the eve of season's end.

My Top 5 MVP list is likely going to be:

Jokic
Gobert
Steph
Giannis
Embiid

My Top 5 POY list may well be radically different though. Other guys I could see making a dent:

Kawhi or PG - the Clippers still feel like they could go either way, but when they've been on this year, they've been dominant.

Harden, Durant, or Kyrie - and if the Nets win the whole shebang, probably one of these guys is on the list.

Luka, Dame - just on the outside looking in now, so a step forward may mean moving up.

A rising Sun - probably Paul or Booker, if the Suns, say, get to the finals.

Jimmy - nobody wants to play against him and his team

Anyone else? Oh right, LeBron & AD can skyrocket up the ranks if they just win.

OPOY - Jokic, Steph & Dame come to mind right now.

DPOY - Gobert, Simmons, Draymond

ROY - LaMelo, Haliburton, Edwards

MIP - Porter, Randle, Lavine

6MOY - Ingles, Clarkson, Hardaway

COY - Monty, Snyder, Thibs

EOY - Marks, ?, ?
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#24 » by Texas Chuck » Sun May 16, 2021 2:18 am

Doctor MJ wrote:EOY - Marks, ?, ?


Presti maybe? Obviously it will matter more what he does with those assets, but he did a tremendous job of collecting them.
Jones? Paul obviously, but Crowder has played his role well and he got some key bench guys under contract in Saric and Payne
Morey/Brand? Subtle moves, but bringing in some guards who can really shoot it has worked out quite nicely

Struggling to think of anyone else much who stood out. Getting Harden probably wins this.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#25 » by Doctor MJ » Sun May 16, 2021 2:54 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:EOY - Marks, ?, ?


Presti maybe? Obviously it will matter more what he does with those assets, but he did a tremendous job of collecting them.
Jones? Paul obviously, but Crowder has played his role well and he got some key bench guys under contract in Saric and Payne
Morey/Brand? Subtle moves, but bringing in some guards who can really shoot it has worked out quite nicely

Struggling to think of anyone else much who stood out. Getting Harden probably wins this.


Presti actually tied for our award last year and I argued against it then. I just don't like giving the EOY based on tear-down performance.

Re: "Morey?...Getting Harden probably wins this." Yup. Had Morey got Harden, he's likely the winner of this, but as it stands, while things are going well and he made some good moves (Seth Curry comes to mind), I can't say he had a bigger year than Marks.

I'll mention Tim Connolly of Denver, he had 2nd on my list year. I love the Gordon move this year, so once again he's a guy who has impressed me favorably.

I think James Jones in Phoenix makes some sense with the acquisitions of Paul & Crowder, but again, less major than what happened in Brooklyn.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#26 » by Bidofo » Sun May 16, 2021 5:05 pm

Glad to finally participate in this. What I tentatively have so far:

POY
Jokic
Curry
Giannis
Gobert
Embiid
Luka
Kawhi

What Jokic is doing this season is nothing short of historic. I was already singing his praises last year, but this year has been another level up, and given a strong postseason, it might go down as the greatest offensive peak for a center in history and one of the greatest offensive peaks period of all time. A 130 box score ORTG on his volume and usage is pretty absurd.

Weirdly, it seems to me that people are underrating Curry. Is he really doing anything different from his 2016 regular season besides winning less because of a much worse roster? Not to mention that after they stopped playing Wiseman, the Warriors have looked kinda good. He's having his third 8+ OBPM year, and the first since his back-to-back MVP seasons except with much worse spacing and BBIQ on his team. The fact that there are significant concerns for whoever the #1 seed is (including a healthy Jazz team, I'd say) in taking out the Warriors should speak to his ranking. Speaking of the Jazz, I also think that perhaps there is some winning bias associated with Gobert's high ranking on some lists. I understand the rationale: he's the anchor of the fourth best defense and a big catalyst for their third best offense. To those who have watched him more than I, where has Gobert improved this season? How much different is he from last year, or the year before that? I'm not sure if this is still accurate (what with Mitchell's injury and Conley rest), but I recall reading a stat that said the Jazz were on the low side of games missed due to injuries/COVID protocols. Adds some context to their success I guess. But to his credit he's still producing and not missing games, so I have him fourth. Giannis is ahead, because well, I think he's been a better player and quietly having another great RS.

It's a shame Embiid missed games again this year, he is having an amazing season and per minute I'd probably put him right behind Jokic. The Sixers this year are +12 with him on, which is better than the Bucks when Giannis is on, and it's not really clear who has the better roster (I'd lean Bucks tbh). And lastly I have Luka and Kawhi right behind, Luka for just not being as good as the rest and Kawhi for missing games. A great postseason can bump any of these guys up though of course. Guys like LeBron/Harden/AD have quite some ground to cover if they wanna sniff the top 5.

6MOY - I truly think it's a shame that Clarkson will probably win this award in real life. He had a super hot start, but it turns out he's still that prototypical, relatively inefficient Crawford-type player that checks into games with the sole purpose of getting their own shots up, and I'm not really a fan of that. I'm not sure if Ingles qualifies, but I'd go with him over Clarkson. But a huge shoutout to Derrick Rose, and this is not a homer take at all, if he was with the Knicks for the whole season he would easily run away with it. The Knicks are 23-11 when he plays, good for a 55 win pace. Over the last 18 games where we've really started winning, he's putting up 18 ppg, 4.4 app and 1.5 tov on 62.3 TS% with a 14-4 record. It's amazing how much he's refined his game, his floater and jump shot are absolutely money right now.

MIP - I thought Wood was going to run away with it before the season began and it was looking like a good prediction at the beginning of the season. I now have a Randle shrine in every room of my home. :D

COY - This is a pretty stacked year for COY, Thibs, Snyder, Monty, Rivers, and McMillan all have cases. Depends on playoffs, so I'll put Thibs as my homer placeholder.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#27 » by kayess » Sun May 16, 2021 5:48 pm

My thoughts:

POY: There's Jokic, and there's everyone else. I see it as

Tier 1: Jokic
Tier 1.5: Curry, Embiid, Giannis, Gobert

Not much to really say about Jokic. We all sorta predicted he'd be a massive problem once his fitness caught up to his unbelievable IQ, and turns out, having fast hands and good instincts, plus being absolutely MASSIVE means you are at least average on defense. Guy's just unstoppable despite having all sorts of herky jerky, awkward looking moves that don't look like they should work. When Denver's good seeding hopes were in jeopardy, he just upped his game even more (though tbf, MPJ did too). Murray's being hurt and being unable to replicate essentially Steph Curry level shooting in the bubble is hopefully not the hole that sinks this Denver ship, because Jokic deserves better.

Embiid's in a similar boat in that they just upped the level of what they were doing. They didn't fundamentally change as players, they just started firing on all cylinders and we got to see some very special performances from him. His absurd foul draw rate, great defense, and range really just remind you of a modern Hakeem (along with his passing that needs to catch up).

Curry, Giannis: to an extent, they've just been doing things that we already knew they could do, and just proved again this year that their previous all-time dominant seasons weren't flukes. Much harder for Steph to replicate given his team, but I finally got my wish of seeing him with an unlimited green light - turns out, Steph Curry shooting a basketball may be the single greatest play in basketball history, alongside such classics as "MJ/LeBron drives" or "Shaq catching a pass in the paint". It's awesome. Giannis, OTOH, probably has a slightly, fundamentally different season narrative as Steph because he's added a new tool to his arsenal: a steadily improving jump shot. That, along with another creator the Bucks can turn to in crunch time makes the Bucks a serious threat in the playoffs.

Gobert is at the fulcrum of everything Utah does well. It's why they can load up on offensively minded players and shooters and still ensure they have an elite defense. There's this overbearing sense of they're a "fraudulent" 10 SRS team, in a 2017 Spurs sort of way? I don't think they're an all-time team at that level, but to call them frauds would be overstating it.

Jokic should really clinch it with like 2 good playoff series at his expected level. I don't think anything short of absolute all-time playoff runs could make me reconsider.

MIP is probably clearly Randle, right? He fixed the 2 biggest weaknesses in his skill set and looks like a bona fide superstar most nights. That's awesome.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#28 » by eminence » Sun May 16, 2021 6:15 pm

Bidofo wrote:.


Here's a thing for injuries:

Read on Twitter


Utah certainly on the healthier side, but not the healthiest either.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#29 » by Bidofo » Mon May 17, 2021 5:40 pm

eminence wrote:
Bidofo wrote:.


Here's a thing for injuries:

Read on Twitter


Utah certainly on the healthier side, but not the healthiest either.

Yea, that was the graphic that I saw, thanks.

As someone who watches a lot of the Jazz, where would you say Gobert has improved from years past? My understanding is much of the offensive improvement is because of a 2014 Spurs-like system that Snyder is employing using Gobert's rolling gravity, yet they are better defensively than last year without too much roster turnover.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#31 » by Fundamentals21 » Tue May 18, 2021 12:27 am



One thing to really NOTE about Chris Paul is he's repeatedly going to some of the most hopeless franchises and taking them to the playoffs. Hornets, Clippers, OKC, Suns. He will willingly do the job and take on any situation. Very contrasting from superstars that complain and force their way to a better situation. Also a huge plus point for the average to bottom franchise when drafting a player. Do you want Chris Paul or a superstar that will bolt when things go wrong?
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#32 » by Colbinii » Tue May 18, 2021 5:08 am

Fundamentals21 wrote:


One thing to really NOTE about Chris Paul is he's repeatedly going to some of the most hopeless franchises and taking them to the playoffs. Hornets, Clippers, OKC, Suns. He will willingly do the job and take on any situation. Very contrasting from superstars that complain and force their way to a better situation. Also a huge plus point for the average to bottom franchise when drafting a player. Do you want Chris Paul or a superstar that will bolt when things go wrong?


Chris Paul did bolt multiple times though. He left the Hornets and Clippers.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#33 » by Doctor MJ » Tue May 18, 2021 5:08 am



Since the first is making a comparison to Nash based on year-to-year transformation, and we have the +/- data for that year, let's compare.

Steve Nash '04-05:
On-Court: +12.7
On/Off: +14.9
1st on the team in total raw +/-.

Chris Paul '20-21:
On-Court: +6.9
On/Off: +2.1
3rd on the team in total raw +/- (behind Bridges and Booker).

These are not at all the same thing. The notion that Paul has had night & day impact on this team is based on superficial correlation ("He got here and now the team's amazing!") not anything having to do with how he makes the team so, so, so much better when he's on the court.

Worse, it ignores the fact that the Suns' big break through came in the Bubble last year, which was also happened to be when Bridges started making people gush on the same site you just linked to:

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2020/7/28/21345949/video-bridges-brings-boatloads-of-buzz-to-bubble-phoenix-suns

Paul deserves praise and accolades for this year. I have him on an All-NBA team. But his year is being built up into more than it is when the narrative really should be about what an exceptional top-to-bottom team the Suns are and how effective Monty Williams has been creating a positive culture out of a place that had been toxic for a long time.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#34 » by Doctor MJ » Tue May 18, 2021 5:10 am

Colbinii wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:


One thing to really NOTE about Chris Paul is he's repeatedly going to some of the most hopeless franchises and taking them to the playoffs. Hornets, Clippers, OKC, Suns. He will willingly do the job and take on any situation. Very contrasting from superstars that complain and force their way to a better situation. Also a huge plus point for the average to bottom franchise when drafting a player. Do you want Chris Paul or a superstar that will bolt when things go wrong?


Chris Paul did bolt multiple times though. He left the Hornets and Clippers.


Seriously, and worse, in both cases the culture had turned sour before he even left, as it also did in Houston.

The Suns would be wise to follow a model closer to OKC. The franchise focus should remain to peak around the primes in their young core.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#35 » by Colbinii » Tue May 18, 2021 5:15 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:
One thing to really NOTE about Chris Paul is he's repeatedly going to some of the most hopeless franchises and taking them to the playoffs. Hornets, Clippers, OKC, Suns. He will willingly do the job and take on any situation. Very contrasting from superstars that complain and force their way to a better situation. Also a huge plus point for the average to bottom franchise when drafting a player. Do you want Chris Paul or a superstar that will bolt when things go wrong?


Chris Paul did bolt multiple times though. He left the Hornets and Clippers.


Seriously, and worse, in both cases the culture had turned sour before he even left, as it also did in Houston.

The Suns would be wise to follow a model closer to OKC. The franchise focus should remain to peak around the primes in their young core.


I think the Suns can get one more good year out of Paul but the issue is going to be Paul wanting that big contract. As a fan of watching how some teams deal with contracts in the off-season, Chris Paul and the situation surrounding him is going to have my attention.

I tell you where I would love to see him next year--Minnesota.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#36 » by Doctor MJ » Tue May 18, 2021 5:26 am

Colbinii wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Chris Paul did bolt multiple times though. He left the Hornets and Clippers.


Seriously, and worse, in both cases the culture had turned sour before he even left, as it also did in Houston.

The Suns would be wise to follow a model closer to OKC. The franchise focus should remain to peak around the primes in their young core.


I think the Suns can get one more good year out of Paul but the issue is going to be Paul wanting that big contract. As a fan of watching how some teams deal with contracts in the off-season, Chris Paul and the situation surrounding him is going to have my attention.

I tell you where I would love to see him next year--Minnesota.


Agreed. If I'm the Suns, I'm happy to keep him and his $40+ mill contract next year if he wants to stay, but I'm not sure spending 3 years with CP3 is advisable for the Suns. You're not going to be able to play the Chris Paul way when he leaves, so unless these playoffs lead you to think you're a strong contender for the title, it's important not get your other players dependent on Uncle Control Freak, even if they seem happy with it.

I think Minny's a good call for Paul to go next. It would mean kicking Russell to the curb, which I wouldn't think they'd be looking to do, but I think Paul might really help the Timberwolves build discipline.

I'll put the Clippers' name out there - super-ironic I know. Won't make sense if the Clippers win the title this year, but if they don't and point guard play is a problem, Paul seems like like he'd fix those problems immediately.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#37 » by Fundamentals21 » Tue May 18, 2021 4:29 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Since the first is making a comparison to Nash based on year-to-year transformation, and we have the +/- data for that year, let's compare.

Steve Nash '04-05:
On-Court: +12.7
On/Off: +14.9
1st on the team in total raw +/-.

Chris Paul '20-21:
On-Court: +6.9
On/Off: +2.1
3rd on the team in total raw +/- (behind Bridges and Booker).

These are not at all the same thing. The notion that Paul has had night & day impact on this team is based on superficial correlation ("He got here and now the team's amazing!") not anything having to do with how he makes the team so, so, so much better when he's on the court.

Worse, it ignores the fact that the Suns' big break through came in the Bubble last year, which was also happened to be when Bridges started making people gush on the same site you just linked to:

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2020/7/28/21345949/video-bridges-brings-boatloads-of-buzz-to-bubble-phoenix-suns

Paul deserves praise and accolades for this year. I have him on an All-NBA team. But his year is being built up into more than it is when the narrative really should be about what an exceptional top-to-bottom team the Suns are and how effective Monty Williams has been creating a positive culture out of a place that had been toxic for a long time.



I don’t know how Nash got into this conversation Lol. But in his ancient days their +/- wasn’t far apart. Illardi’s 02-11 RAPM sample had them neck and neck. Chris Paul’s +/- can sometimes slip, but in larger sample sizes it resembles more of the work you would get from a Top 5 type of player.

By this year’s EPM, Chris Paul's +/- data had picked up to MVP level of play.

Read on Twitter
/photo/1

He’s around #7 by NBA shot charts over a 3 year sample.

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm3?id=652260798


I guess you can say Suns have a good team, which is fine. I doubt Chris Paul is playing with bad players. He probably has enough to make the 2nd seed.

I don’t know if it’s superficial. A Chris Paul challenge to turn around a franchise seems absurdly burdensome. How many players can really be counted on to see this team through? Sports media seems mixed overall and he gets some high MVP votes and other places he doesn’t. They might need to be woo’ed a little from his playoff run.

So I see him more as a weak MVP type. I will wait and watch to see how he does in MVP award voting.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#38 » by Fundamentals21 » Tue May 18, 2021 4:30 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:


One thing to really NOTE about Chris Paul is he's repeatedly going to some of the most hopeless franchises and taking them to the playoffs. Hornets, Clippers, OKC, Suns. He will willingly do the job and take on any situation. Very contrasting from superstars that complain and force their way to a better situation. Also a huge plus point for the average to bottom franchise when drafting a player. Do you want Chris Paul or a superstar that will bolt when things go wrong?


Chris Paul did bolt multiple times though. He left the Hornets and Clippers.


Lmao. This is my bad. I meant to phrase something entirely different. :crazy:
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#39 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue May 18, 2021 11:38 pm

Think i've sat out voting the last 2 seasons but want to get back in this year. This wasn't a perfect season by any means given the covid hurdles, but there were still plenty of great performances and games worth celebrating. I think the play in addition did prevent losing teams from tanking further, and it was fun to follow the end of the season. Aside from the clippers doing everything they could to lose to the thunder on sunday. That was wild.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#40 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed May 19, 2021 12:26 pm

Fundamentals21 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Since the first is making a comparison to Nash based on year-to-year transformation, and we have the +/- data for that year, let's compare.

Steve Nash '04-05:
On-Court: +12.7
On/Off: +14.9
1st on the team in total raw +/-.

Chris Paul '20-21:
On-Court: +6.9
On/Off: +2.1
3rd on the team in total raw +/- (behind Bridges and Booker).

These are not at all the same thing. The notion that Paul has had night & day impact on this team is based on superficial correlation ("He got here and now the team's amazing!") not anything having to do with how he makes the team so, so, so much better when he's on the court.

Worse, it ignores the fact that the Suns' big break through came in the Bubble last year, which was also happened to be when Bridges started making people gush on the same site you just linked to:

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2020/7/28/21345949/video-bridges-brings-boatloads-of-buzz-to-bubble-phoenix-suns

Paul deserves praise and accolades for this year. I have him on an All-NBA team. But his year is being built up into more than it is when the narrative really should be about what an exceptional top-to-bottom team the Suns are and how effective Monty Williams has been creating a positive culture out of a place that had been toxic for a long time.



I don’t know how Nash got into this conversation Lol. But in his ancient days their +/- wasn’t far apart. Illardi’s 02-11 RAPM sample had them neck and neck. Chris Paul’s +/- can sometimes slip, but in larger sample sizes it resembles more of the work you would get from a Top 5 type of player.

By this year’s EPM, Chris Paul's +/- data had picked up to MVP level of play.

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He’s around #7 by NBA shot charts over a 3 year sample.

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm3?id=652260798


I guess you can say Suns have a good team, which is fine. I doubt Chris Paul is playing with bad players. He probably has enough to make the 2nd seed.

I don’t know if it’s superficial. A Chris Paul challenge to turn around a franchise seems absurdly burdensome. How many players can really be counted on to see this team through? Sports media seems mixed overall and he gets some high MVP votes and other places he doesn’t. They might need to be woo’ed a little from his playoff run.

So I see him more as a weak MVP type. I will wait and watch to see how he does in MVP award voting.


Correct, in his CP3's peak days, he has an argument over Nash. But this current version of Chris Paul is far removed from that level of play. It's great he has had this strong last month of play, but his season just honestly has not been MVP level for the majority of the season. We will see about his PS performance.

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