2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

[Jaivl]

Won't vote, but I would have

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Embiid
Doncic

Have Curry as the best player in the world this year, but Giannis and Jokic are close enough to reasonably give them the edge. Jokic had pretty much an spotless season and was my #1 after the RS, and Giannis flips Curry due to his excellent Finals.

Kawhi was getting there, but injuries, same with Durant and Harden. Never really had Lillard or Gobert in contention above #5, much less Paul or Booker (top 15-20ish for me). LeBron is #6.

[HeartBreakKid]

Won't vote, but I would have

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Embiid
Doncic

Have Curry as the best player in the world this year, but Giannis and Jokic are close enough to reasonably give them the edge. Jokic had pretty much an spotless season and was my #1 after the RS, and Giannis flips Curry due to his excellent Finals.

Kawhi was getting there, but injuries, same with Durant and Harden. Never really had Lillard or Gobert in contention above #5, much less Paul or Booker (top 15-20ish for me). LeBron is #6.

Why not vote?

[BobbyPortisFan]

Which I think we should change. When the projects started it seemed people were more open minded to simply not give the award for the deepest post season run (Lebron James was POY not Kobe Bryant in 09 and 10).

I'll look it over, but I had Jokic as #1 before the last few games. I don't really care much about total number of post season games. Heck, I'm almost positive Curry will make my ballot.

there are valid reasons to value deeper runs more tho

-stronger competence (usually) in latter rounds

-increase in sample size, only 1 and arguably only 2 series is maybe too small a sample, giannis improved his play as the playoffs went to a level higher thsn jokic did

maybe if jokic had a better situation he would have dominated all the way to the finals too and played at giannis in the finals level, but we dont know that for sure, we didnt for giannis either

and the fact that according to the first post the poy is not about who is the best player in virtual terms where luck and teams were equalized, but rather about who accomplished more

and a dominant play-off run in way to a title is a hell do an achievement

Yes, but what does accomplishing more mean in basketball? It's not an individual sport, and POY itself is a forum based accomplishment so it seems like a circular argument. If we are voting who should be on the cover of sports illustrated then the answer is rather obvious every year, and not really worth voting.

I don't know why some people are pretending the question is hard then, if the argument is simply who has the most brass or what people will remember most about this year then it is obviously Giannis if that is one's criteria. I almost feel like some people are humoring Jokic vs Giannis is an argument in order to not look shallow, instead of just standing by their criteria and voting for Giannis. That is a bigger peeve for me then someone just flat out saying Giannis deserves to win because he went deeper in the post season - it feels less patronizing.

Lebron James was voted as POY in 2010 despite getting eliminated in the 2nd round, and he was upset on top of that and didn't play out of this world in particular. I do think that once Dirk won the nba championship and subsequently James "redeemed" himself the next seasonf\, the narrative has shifted greatly toward finals or nothing because the board in general is very much tied to Lebron James oriented narratives.

Jokic in the post season is hardly an unknown quantity. Maybe you and many others can say "we don't know", but I feel like I know pretty well. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, I mean it in that at a certain level you have to make an assessment with the info given to you, and Jokic does not have a tiny sample size of greatness. Even with Jokic "struggling" in a smaller sample size, his offensive output is equal to Giannis', and his regular season stats are much better - we also have data from his previous post season runs which I would argue are better than Giannis'. Regardless, "we know" how good Jokic is, it's not a leap of faith.

]
Jokic is a center who can't defend which presents issues. Jokic's teams have never done so well in the playoffs. Jamal murray turned into a great player and the nuggets still got demolished by the lakers. Embid's sixers probably had a better chance of getting a title n 2019 than any jokic team has.

[Jaivl]

Won't vote, but I would have

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Embiid
Doncic

Have Curry as the best player in the world this year, but Giannis and Jokic are close enough to reasonably give them the edge. Jokic had pretty much an spotless season and was my #1 after the RS, and Giannis flips Curry due to his excellent Finals.

Kawhi was getting there, but injuries, same with Durant and Harden. Never really had Lillard or Gobert in contention above #5, much less Paul or Booker (top 15-20ish for me). LeBron is #6.

Why not vote?

Have not watched that many RS games or participated in the discussion.

[GSP]

there are valid reasons to value deeper runs more tho

-stronger competence (usually) in latter rounds

-increase in sample size, only 1 and arguably only 2 series is maybe too small a sample, giannis improved his play as the playoffs went to a level higher thsn jokic did

maybe if jokic had a better situation he would have dominated all the way to the finals too and played at giannis in the finals level, but we dont know that for sure, we didnt for giannis either

and the fact that according to the first post the poy is not about who is the best player in virtual terms where luck and teams were equalized, but rather about who accomplished more

and a dominant play-off run in way to a title is a hell do an achievement

Yes, but what does accomplishing more mean in basketball? It's not an individual sport, and POY itself is a forum based accomplishment so it seems like a circular argument. If we are voting who should be on the cover of sports illustrated then the answer is rather obvious every year, and not really worth voting.

I don't know why some people are pretending the question is hard then, if the argument is simply who has the most brass or what people will remember most about this year then it is obviously Giannis if that is one's criteria. I almost feel like some people are humoring Jokic vs Giannis is an argument in order to not look shallow, instead of just standing by their criteria and voting for Giannis. That is a bigger peeve for me then someone just flat out saying Giannis deserves to win because he went deeper in the post season - it feels less patronizing.

Lebron James was voted as POY in 2010 despite getting eliminated in the 2nd round, and he was upset on top of that and didn't play out of this world in particular. I do think that once Dirk won the nba championship and subsequently James "redeemed" himself the next seasonf\, the narrative has shifted greatly toward finals or nothing because the board in general is very much tied to Lebron James oriented narratives.

Jokic in the post season is hardly an unknown quantity. Maybe you and many others can say "we don't know", but I feel like I know pretty well. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, I mean it in that at a certain level you have to make an assessment with the info given to you, and Jokic does not have a tiny sample size of greatness. Even with Jokic "struggling" in a smaller sample size, his offensive output is equal to Giannis', and his regular season stats are much better - we also have data from his previous post season runs which I would argue are better than Giannis'. Regardless, "we know" how good Jokic is, it's not a leap of faith.

]
Jokic is a center who can't defend which presents issues. Jokic's teams have never done so well in the playoffs. Jamal murray turned into a great player and the nuggets still got demolished by the lakers. Embid's sixers probably had a better chance of getting a title n 2019 than any jokic team has.

Ben
Redick
Jimmy
Tobias
Jokic

Would've won the title that year. Jokic def isn't getting sonned by Marc Gasol like Embiid did and they'd be a decent enough on defense.

I mean Jimmy literally led a team to the finals and within 2 wins of a title the next season. He's way better than Murray and Ben arguably is too

[Texas Chuck]

I don't buy this board is bound by Lebron narratives at all. In fact he's talked about way less here than he probably should be considering his play. But we all have perceptions. I think KG and Mike as beloved archetypes dominate still and we tend to measure players less on how good they are, but how they compare to these players this board has set has ideals.

[falcolombardi]

I don't buy this board is bound by Lebron narratives at all. In fact he's talked about way less here than he probably should be considering his play. But we all have perceptions. I think KG and Mike as beloved archetypes dominate still and we tend to measure players less on how good they are, but how they compare to these players this board has set has ideals.

wouldnt it be the other way with garnett? he ks heavily controversial player to evaluate

[penbeast0]

I don't think KG is so much an archetype as he is a favorite of those who love impact stats as the best available evidence. Even Jordan isn't so much an archetype as he is a myth. You can put any skill out there and someone is going to claim Jordan was the greatest at it or would have been if he'd focused on it. I've even seen this about greatest 3 point shooter and greatest post up scorer.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't think KG is so much an archetype as he is a favorite of those who love impact stats as the best available evidence. Even Jordan isn't so much an archetype as he is a myth. You can put any skill out there and someone is going to claim Jordan was the greatest at it or would have been if he'd focused on it. I've even seen this about greatest 3 point shooter and greatest post up scorer.

On the dot.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't think KG is so much an archetype as he is a favorite of those who love impact stats as the best available evidence. Even Jordan isn't so much an archetype as he is a myth. You can put any skill out there and someone is going to claim Jordan was the greatest at it or would have been if he'd focused on it. I've even seen this about greatest 3 point shooter and greatest post up scorer.

On the dot.

I agree about the impact stats, but we also talk all the time on this board about how KG is the perfect modern defensive big because of the whole middle linebacker thing while questioning how effective elite defenders like Deke or Big Ben would be. We also talk a lot about his range and his passing as being extremely valuable skills and knock other players in comparison.

The love probably does start from teh +/- family of stats, but the KG guys tend to go further to explain why his unique skills are the most valuable. And they aren't really wrong. He has a ton of valuable skills.

Mike is different and again I agree its mostly myth, but with him its less style of play, its more 6-0, never losing game 7s, never losing as favorite, scoring is the most important thing, killer instinct, all that usual narrative.

They are much more influential players than Lebron James on this board. On teh GB the complete opposite of course.

[BobbyPortisFan]

Yes, but what does accomplishing more mean in basketball? It's not an individual sport, and POY itself is a forum based accomplishment so it seems like a circular argument. If we are voting who should be on the cover of sports illustrated then the answer is rather obvious every year, and not really worth voting.

I don't know why some people are pretending the question is hard then, if the argument is simply who has the most brass or what people will remember most about this year then it is obviously Giannis if that is one's criteria. I almost feel like some people are humoring Jokic vs Giannis is an argument in order to not look shallow, instead of just standing by their criteria and voting for Giannis. That is a bigger peeve for me then someone just flat out saying Giannis deserves to win because he went deeper in the post season - it feels less patronizing.

Lebron James was voted as POY in 2010 despite getting eliminated in the 2nd round, and he was upset on top of that and didn't play out of this world in particular. I do think that once Dirk won the nba championship and subsequently James "redeemed" himself the next seasonf\, the narrative has shifted greatly toward finals or nothing because the board in general is very much tied to Lebron James oriented narratives.

Jokic in the post season is hardly an unknown quantity. Maybe you and many others can say "we don't know", but I feel like I know pretty well. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, I mean it in that at a certain level you have to make an assessment with the info given to you, and Jokic does not have a tiny sample size of greatness. Even with Jokic "struggling" in a smaller sample size, his offensive output is equal to Giannis', and his regular season stats are much better - we also have data from his previous post season runs which I would argue are better than Giannis'. Regardless, "we know" how good Jokic is, it's not a leap of faith.

]
Jokic is a center who can't defend which presents issues. Jokic's teams have never done so well in the playoffs. Jamal murray turned into a great player and the nuggets still got demolished by the lakers. Embid's sixers probably had a better chance of getting a title n 2019 than any jokic team has.

Ben
Redick
Jimmy
Tobias
Jokic

Would've won the title that year. Jokic def isn't getting sonned by Marc Gasol like Embiid did and they'd be a decent enough on defense.

I mean Jimmy literally led a team to the finals and within 2 wins of a title the next season. He's way better than Murray and Ben arguably is too

Bam was the heat's best player until he got hurt in the finals.

And no, playoff murray played way better than anyone's embid has played with. It's not lke the defense was leaving him in single coverage, murray just started playing like a superstar in the playoffs.

[BobbyPortisFan]

I don't buy this board is bound by Lebron narratives at all. In fact he's talked about way less here than he probably should be considering his play. But we all have perceptions. I think KG and Mike as beloved archetypes dominate still and we tend to measure players less on how good they are, but how they compare to these players this board has set has ideals.

He just played badly in the first round, missed half the regular season and people are saying he's the best player in the world. How can you say people aren't tied to narratives about him...

[Texas Chuck]

I don't buy this board is bound by Lebron narratives at all. In fact he's talked about way less here than he probably should be considering his play. But we all have perceptions. I think KG and Mike as beloved archetypes dominate still and we tend to measure players less on how good they are, but how they compare to these players this board has set has ideals.

He just played badly in the first round, missed half the regular season and people are saying he's the best player in the world. How can you say people aren't tied to narratives about him...

Because before he got injured he was still playing at an MVP level? Something he has been doing continuously for a long time?

I'm not sure why we treat Lebron like he's in steep decline until we know that is real. Now it might very well be. He's already greatly exceeded any realistic expectations for level of play at his age. But when he was healthy he was great. I don't understand the issue with people saying that. And its far from a consensus opinion here. It's very much a minority opinion on the PC board that Lebron is atm the best player in the world.

[BobbyPortisFan]

I don't buy this board is bound by Lebron narratives at all. In fact he's talked about way less here than he probably should be considering his play. But we all have perceptions. I think KG and Mike as beloved archetypes dominate still and we tend to measure players less on how good they are, but how they compare to these players this board has set has ideals.

He just played badly in the first round, missed half the regular season and people are saying he's the best player in the world. How can you say people aren't tied to narratives about him...

Because before he got injured he was still playing at an MVP level? Something he has been doing continuously for a long time?

I'm not sure why we treat Lebron like he's in steep decline until we know that is real. Now it might very well be. He's already greatly exceeded any realistic expectations for level of play at his age. But when he was healthy he was great. I don't understand the issue with people saying that. And its far from a consensus opinion here. It's very much a minority opinion on the PC board that Lebron is atm the best player in the world.

Why does it matter what he did before? Jokic was way better per possession in the regular season anyway. Lebron shouldn't get to ride off what he did last season or half of this season.

[Texas Chuck]

He just played badly in the first round, missed half the regular season and people are saying he's the best player in the world. How can you say people aren't tied to narratives about him...

Because before he got injured he was still playing at an MVP level? Something he has been doing continuously for a long time?

I'm not sure why we treat Lebron like he's in steep decline until we know that is real. Now it might very well be. He's already greatly exceeded any realistic expectations for level of play at his age. But when he was healthy he was great. I don't understand the issue with people saying that. And its far from a consensus opinion here. It's very much a minority opinion on the PC board that Lebron is atm the best player in the world.

Why does it matter what he did before? Jokic was way better per possession in the regular season anyway. Lebron shouldn't get to ride off what he did last season or half of this season.

I have no idea what you are upset about other than you hate Lebron I guess? He was playing great then got hurt. I don't care if people thought Jokic or Embiid or Curry or Giannis were playing better. Fine. They were all having great seasons. But its not zero sum. Jokic being great doesn't preclude Lebron from having played great too.

If you don't think he was ever the best player last year, cool. But being angry because someone else did when Lebron was playing that well seems silly.

[bondom34]

I don't buy this board is bound by Lebron narratives at all.

I didn't really care to debate it either way, but with regard to this:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2035863&start=160

This was right after one of the more dominant games in a while. I do think many times discussion tends to get overly focused on a few players, and in this case a whole thread went off the rails because of it (and tbh seems it happens fairly often). Both sides dig in and it's over in any topic regarding Lebron too. And in general I've stood up for him in plenty of threads with the crazy logic too, but sometimes think everything sort of ties back to him a bit too much even for a player of his status.

[GSP]

]
Jokic is a center who can't defend which presents issues. Jokic's teams have never done so well in the playoffs. Jamal murray turned into a great player and the nuggets still got demolished by the lakers. Embid's sixers probably had a better chance of getting a title n 2019 than any jokic team has.

Ben
Redick
Jimmy
Tobias
Jokic

Would've won the title that year. Jokic def isn't getting sonned by Marc Gasol like Embiid did and they'd be a decent enough on defense.

I mean Jimmy literally led a team to the finals and within 2 wins of a title the next season. He's way better than Murray and Ben arguably is too

Bam was the heat's best player until he got hurt in the finals.

And no, playoff murray played way better than anyone's embid has played with. It's not lke the defense was leaving him in single coverage, murray just started playing like a superstar in the playoffs.

Bam has never in his life been better than Jimmy and the Heat were the Wolves whenever Bam was playing without Jimmy

Murray saw a ton of single coverage in the playoffs specially against Utah where he mostly went off

[therealbig3]

LeBron hasn't been the best RS player in a while, he has pretty much consistently stepped up and dominated the PS more than anyone else for many, many years though, which is why people give him the benefit of the doubt as the actual best player, even if his numbers aren't there during the RS. And deservedly so.

This year, he got hurt and his 2nd best player was out with injury during the playoffs, so he didn't really have a chance to prove that again. So I don't really see why it's ridiculous to think LeBron is "actually" the best player in the league, but didn't get a chance to show it this year, like he has in every other healthy season he's had since 2012. So we can still give him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't know anyone that's gonna vote him top 5 POY this year. That's not inconsistent logic at all to me.

He's still the #1 guy I trust in a playoff series if he's healthy.

[therealbig3]

But yeah with that said, it definitely can get a bit hero-worshippy in the LeBron-specific thread that's been maintained here for a while (props to SSB), and that's coming from me, a huge LeBron fan.

[therealbig3]

Won't vote, but I would have

Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Embiid
Doncic

Have Curry as the best player in the world this year, but Giannis and Jokic are close enough to reasonably give them the edge. Jokic had pretty much an spotless season and was my #1 after the RS, and Giannis flips Curry due to his excellent Finals.

Kawhi was getting there, but injuries, same with Durant and Harden. Never really had Lillard or Gobert in contention above #5, much less Paul or Booker (top 15-20ish for me). LeBron is #6.

You seem to be punishing Durant way more than you are Embiid for missed time. And yeah, Durant did miss 15 more RS games than Embiid, but he was likely playing the best basketball out of anyone in the playoffs until he got eliminated. Embiid missed a playoff game and was also hampered by injuries to his knees and back.

Understandable for Durant to not make the cut though...just don't think Embiid should really be in there either then, and definitely not over Doncic.