2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#61 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 2, 2021 6:37 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I'll also say this: If Portland were to beat the Nuggets, the way Dame's been playing, I'd have to seriously consider Lillard over Jokic.


Would love some elaboration on this if you wouldn't mind. Because I got to say on the surface that seems to be minimizing too much what Jokic did over a full 72 games. And its not like Jokic is playing anything short of fantastic in this series himself.

I love Dame. Been making some enemies particularly among Mavs fans because I've take Dame over Luka for all-NBA the last two seasons. But Jokic this year.....just something else entirely.


Well I'll put it this way:

If your team gets upset in the 1st round and everyone agrees that the star of the team that beat you was the best player on the court and the reason why you got upset, I think it's hard to swallow a case where we say you were the best player that season.

Further, it's one thing if you're talking about a Harden-type situation this year where he didn't play for part of the year (and outright, purposefully had negative impact for part of the year) but was at his best in the playoffs. But we're talking about Dame here who was an MVP candidate in his own right and likely would have been ahead of Jokic in the voting if his team had been able to keep pace with Jokic's team instead of sliding at the end.

Now, I'm analytical enough to note that Portland's SRS never indicated that their year should be treated with the kind of respect Denver's SRS did and I'm fine with that in the abstract...but if Portland ends up beating them in their playoff series, it's awfully hard to look at the two teams as if they're fundamentally in different leagues.

I'll also acknowledge some particular squeamishness at the idea of Portland upsetting Denver in both series they've played during Jokic's tenure. Two issues here: 1) the direct comparison with Dame, and 2) the fact that the rest of the league doesn't see the Blazers as true contenders, and thus two losses to them screams "Nuggets aren't real contenders either". There are rebuttals I respect to this, but I don't think there's any doubt that if the Nuggets lose this series with Dame as the best player that if you ask anyone X years in the future about this year, they aren't going to talk about Jokic positively. Sad but true.

Frankly the same may be true to an extent if the Nuggets lose as expected in the 2nd round, but getting upset in the first round to a non-serious team is already rough for MVPs.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#62 » by eminence » Wed Jun 2, 2021 6:37 pm

I like Jokic (had/still have him #1, though don't expect him to finish there for me), but this idea that he's 'doing something else entirely' to me seems to be box-score focused much like Westbrook from a few seasons back. They are both obviously very very good players having very high impact (MVP level for sure), but these dudes aren't '16 Steph or '09 LeBron who were translating their stats into that very upper tier impact.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#63 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jun 2, 2021 6:45 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
If your team gets upset in the 1st round and everyone agrees that the star of the team that beat you was the best player on the court and the reason why you got upset, I think it's hard to swallow a case where we say you were the best player that season.



Thanks for the detailed response. I'll just say I disagree pretty strongly with the above as a rule. Especially if facing a player like Dame who we know is capable of these types of series long outbursts. If Jokic is out there having a great series, but they lose a game like last night because Dame went pure supernova at shot making I'm just not that bothered by the optics of losing in the first round.

Take my boy Dirk. I recently cited 07 as maybe his peak season in the team peaks thread. Pretty sure I'm the only one and while you can definitely make a case for 2011 based on the post game and not just the championship run, I think the playoff failings as a 67 win team is a primary reason why. Dirk was absolutely terrible in 2 games that series which simply can't happen and he deserves all the criticism he gets for that series.

But it doesn't eliminate the absurdity of what he accomplished in the regular season for me. Particularly because I have a large enough sample size of Dirk in the playoffs to know that series was the exception and not the rule. It wasn't the Warriors exposing a fatal flaw though I know some have tried to spin that narrative. It was just a great player having a couple of bad games at the worst possible time. Just like Lebron was the best player in 2011 and a few bad games in the Finals can't change that.

But back to Jokic. In this case he's not playing poorly like Dirk or Lebron did. He's playing incredible basketball without his starting backcourt, with his best two defensive teammates having left in the off-season. Porter Jr is a very talented offensive player, but overall Portland has a clear talent edge.

Just can't get there with you in theory and definitely not in this specific case.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#64 » by Ambrose » Thu Jun 3, 2021 5:24 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I'll also say this: If Portland were to beat the Nuggets, the way Dame's been playing, I'd have to seriously consider Lillard over Jokic.


Would love some elaboration on this if you wouldn't mind. Because I got to say on the surface that seems to be minimizing too much what Jokic did over a full 72 games. And its not like Jokic is playing anything short of fantastic in this series himself.

I love Dame. Been making some enemies particularly among Mavs fans because I've take Dame over Luka for all-NBA the last two seasons. But Jokic this year.....just something else entirely.


Well I'll put it this way:

If your team gets upset in the 1st round and everyone agrees that the star of the team that beat you was the best player on the court and the reason why you got upset, I think it's hard to swallow a case where we say you were the best player that season.

Further, it's one thing if you're talking about a Harden-type situation this year where he didn't play for part of the year (and outright, purposefully had negative impact for part of the year) but was at his best in the playoffs. But we're talking about Dame here who was an MVP candidate in his own right and likely would have been ahead of Jokic in the voting if his team had been able to keep pace with Jokic's team instead of sliding at the end.

Now, I'm analytical enough to note that Portland's SRS never indicated that their year should be treated with the kind of respect Denver's SRS did and I'm fine with that in the abstract...but if Portland ends up beating them in their playoff series, it's awfully hard to look at the two teams as if they're fundamentally in different leagues.

I'll also acknowledge some particular squeamishness at the idea of Portland upsetting Denver in both series they've played during Jokic's tenure. Two issues here: 1) the direct comparison with Dame, and 2) the fact that the rest of the league doesn't see the Blazers as true contenders, and thus two losses to them screams "Nuggets aren't real contenders either". There are rebuttals I respect to this, but I don't think there's any doubt that if the Nuggets lose this series with Dame as the best player that if you ask anyone X years in the future about this year, they aren't going to talk about Jokic positively. Sad but true.

Frankly the same may be true to an extent if the Nuggets lose as expected in the 2nd round, but getting upset in the first round to a non-serious team is already rough for MVPs.


Personally I think the consensus would be that the Nuggets missing their starting backcourt is the main reason. The fact that Denver still likely wins should reinforce the fact that Jokic is better and has been all season long.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#65 » by eminence » Fri Jun 4, 2021 2:13 pm

With all but one 1st round series wrapped up, eliminated guys with serious consideration: Steph and Dame (HM to Tatum/LeBron). Had Steph ahead through the RS and thought he played well in the play-ins, but Dame had a great 1st round in the losing effort. Tough call, both could get in, but I'd expect they'd be 4th/5th type guys.

Gobert/Jokic/Giannis still my 3 leaders. Kawhi/Luka both still clearly alive. If Embiid's out for an extended period he might be done. Harden/Durant putting themselves in range of the back end if they can win it all. Still not sold on any particular Sun. And g'luck to Trae Young!
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#66 » by Fundamentals21 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:21 pm

Nice. I got the usual suspects as well. Gobert/Jokic/Embiid are my Top 3 so far. The 4th and 5th are probably for Curry and Giannis, though I might think over Lillard, Kawhi and Luka for a while. Chris Paul got injured and looks done.

I am pretty sure Jokic is untouchable at this point. Should dominate vs Suns.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#67 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:49 pm

eminence wrote:I like Jokic (had/still have him #1, though don't expect him to finish there for me), but this idea that he's 'doing something else entirely' to me seems to be box-score focused much like Westbrook from a few seasons back. They are both obviously very very good players having very high impact (MVP level for sure), but these dudes aren't '16 Steph or '09 LeBron who were translating their stats into that very upper tier impact.

I don't know, we've seen Jokic have MVP level impact with more modest stat lines last year. I think he is better than his stats suggest.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#68 » by Ambrose » Fri Jun 4, 2021 4:45 pm

For me Jokic/Giannis are essentially locks, Gobert has a great shot, and Embiid/Dame/Curry/Luka/CP3 would be next. I don't see any reason to put Kawhi above those guys.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#69 » by eminence » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:30 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
eminence wrote:I like Jokic (had/still have him #1, though don't expect him to finish there for me), but this idea that he's 'doing something else entirely' to me seems to be box-score focused much like Westbrook from a few seasons back. They are both obviously very very good players having very high impact (MVP level for sure), but these dudes aren't '16 Steph or '09 LeBron who were translating their stats into that very upper tier impact.

I don't know, we've seen Jokic have MVP level impact with more modest stat lines last year. I think he is better than his stats suggest.


I’m not sure if we’re disagreeing. I think Jokic was at/near MVP level the last few seasons as well. I don’t think the higher box-score stuff this season is indicating more impact scaling up to a top tier all-time season (similar to ‘16/‘17 Westbrook).
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#70 » by GSP » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:40 pm

eminence wrote:I like Jokic (had/still have him #1, though don't expect him to finish there for me), but this idea that he's 'doing something else entirely' to me seems to be box-score focused much like Westbrook from a few seasons back. They are both obviously very very good players having very high impact (MVP level for sure), but these dudes aren't '16 Steph or '09 LeBron who were translating their stats into that very upper tier impact.


Steph has never been better than Jokic is now. Lets see how Stephs "very upper tier impact" looks without Draymond for an entire season specially 16 Draymond.

Bron is obviously an entirely different story and Steph shouldnt be in the same sentence as him.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#71 » by eminence » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:37 pm

GSP wrote:
eminence wrote:I like Jokic (had/still have him #1, though don't expect him to finish there for me), but this idea that he's 'doing something else entirely' to me seems to be box-score focused much like Westbrook from a few seasons back. They are both obviously very very good players having very high impact (MVP level for sure), but these dudes aren't '16 Steph or '09 LeBron who were translating their stats into that very upper tier impact.


Steph has never been better than Jokic is now. Lets see how Stephs "very upper tier impact" looks without Draymond for an entire season specially 16 Draymond.

Bron is obviously an entirely different story and Steph shouldnt be in the same sentence as him.


Sure, that’s a fine opinion to have, but doesn’t really change the point.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#72 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Jun 6, 2021 10:30 pm

And with that Luka assures he will not finish in my top 5 POY. Obviously he had a great individual playoff run(1st halves anyway), but no more games takes him out of the running for me. Obviously will be a factor in the OPOY race still. Kawhi certainly is staking a claim for a high finish in both.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#73 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:29 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:And with that Luka assures he will not finish in my top 5 POY. Obviously he had a great individual playoff run(1st halves anyway), but no more games takes him out of the running for me. Obviously will be a factor in the OPOY race still. Kawhi certainly is staking a claim for a high finish in both.


Similar for me. The only guy eliminated who is still in my Top 5 at the moment is Curry, and the question will be whether he is squeezed out.

To try to organize it:

Current Top 5: Jokic, Gobert, Curry, Embiid, Giannis

Top Contenders to Break into Top 5 at this Moment: Kawhi, Durant, Booker, Young

Other Top 10 candidates, no longer playing: Luka, Dame, LeBron
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#74 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:35 pm

Real similar to you only with less belief that KD or Booker end up in my top 5. Hate rewarding KD too much for Harden carrying him to the playoffs and then he puts up numbers and steals the spot. He wasn't the best player on his team this year and that's a tough burden to overcome for me. And I know Booker puts up the points but as you point out when Paul gets a bunch of credit, that's a team with a bunch of guys really contributing and a coach who changed the culture completely.

But same 5 in atm. Trae and Kawhi the guys threatening to barge in.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#75 » by falcolombardi » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:39 pm

durant only shot after a injured regular season is leading the harden less nets past milwaukee, making the finals and dominating there
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#76 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:43 pm

falcolombardi wrote:durant only shot after a injured regular season is leading the harden less nets past milwaukee, making the finals and dominating there


Doesn't seem all that unlikely to me.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#77 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:46 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Real similar to you only with less belief that KD or Booker end up in my top 5. Hate rewarding KD too much for Harden carrying him to the playoffs and then he puts up numbers and steals the spot. He wasn't the best player on his team this year and that's a tough burden to overcome for me. And I know Booker puts up the points but as you point out when Paul gets a bunch of credit, that's a team with a bunch of guys really contributing and a coach who changed the culture completely.

But same 5 in atm. Trae and Kawhi the guys threatening to barge in.


Honestly if Game 1 had gone down with Harden as the clear cut star of the game I'd have listed him instead. If the Nets win the title, I expect at least one of those guys to make themselves a serious candidate.

Re: Suns, coach who changed culture. Preach. Monty's not been being given enough credit. Definitely my COY through the RS, and the first round didn't hurt.

Re: Booker unlikely in Top 5. I think it's likely that if the Suns win the title it will comes with Booker announcing himself as a top tier superstar. To the extent the team continues to feel like more of an ensemble it makes it easier for Paul to stay ahead of him, but it's hard to see Paul as a serious Top 5 candidate.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#78 » by Jaivl » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:51 pm

The Player of the Year is actually the Team of the Year, I see.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#79 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:51 pm

I'm a Paul was more important than Booker this year guy still. But I would agree that if they win the title, Booker will have to be the guy who elevates to make that happen. Paul doesn't have that extra gear particularly not with the injury.
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Re: 2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#80 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 6, 2021 11:55 pm

Jaivl wrote:The Player of the Year is actually the Team of the Year, I see.


You see, very little.
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