[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hawks

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Hawks franchise history.

As Atlanta Hawks from 1968-69 to today
As St. Louis Hawks from 1955-56 to 1967-68
As Milwaukee Hawks from 1951-52 to 1954-55
As Tri-Cities Blackhawks from 1949-50 to 1950-51

Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.

- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.

Spoiler:

Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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Spoiler:

Colbinii · Post #2 » by **Colbinii** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:09 pm

This should be fun

HeartBreakKid · Post #3 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:14 pm

My tentative list is

Pettit
Hagan
Mutumbo
Wilkins
Horford

Clyde Lovellette and Paul Milsap are interesting alternatives for Horford.

Odinn21 · Post #4 » by **Odinn21** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:19 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:My tentative list is

Pettit
Hagan
Mutumbo
Wilkins
Horford

Clyde Lovellette and Paul Milsap are interesting alternatives for Horford.

I think 1989 Moses is clearly better than Horford, Millsap and Lovellette.

HeartBreakKid · Post #5 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:23 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:My tentative list is

Pettit
Hagan
Mutumbo
Wilkins
Horford

Clyde Lovellette and Paul Milsap are interesting alternatives for Horford.

I think 1989 Moses is clearly better than Horford, Millsap and Lovellette.

I forgot about Moses. But Im not sure about clearly - those 3 guys are all two way players (with better D than O if I had to guess for Horford/Millsap) and stretch bigs. Horford and Millsap are quite a bit ahead as passers against Moses.

I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine past prime Moses defense must not have been very good, and he seems turnover prone for his type of production.

I'd consider him in the mix.

70sFan · Post #6 » by **70sFan** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:30 pm

From my observations, Moses was weak defender at this point. He could still use some tricks in the post and he wasn't slow on his feet, but his effort wasn't good and he didn't have much verticality anymore. Don't forget that he wasn't big for a center either.

I think he can make top 5, but it's far from given

Dr Positivity · Post #7 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon May 10, 2021 3:36 pm

1. Bob Pettit 1959 - Definitely #1 for me, this is a solid MVP considering he finished ahead of some guys. He has pretty good playoffs although in less games. The title year was only ok in the playoffs before the last game.

2. Cliff Hagan 1958 - Not really a fan of Nique so I'll pull the trigger on Hagan thanks to stellar playoff performance outplaying Pettit in title year (.312 WS/48 for what it's worth)

3. Dominique Wilkins 1988 - I'll go with the year he goes toe to toe with Bird

4. Dikembe Mutombo 1997 - Hawks were good in late 90s and he was at the center of it like Gobert now.

5. Lenny Wilkens 1968 - Who is better in 68, Wilkens or Beaty? Beaty has better advanced stats but Wilkens finishes 2nd MVP. This is a worse era for guards and better for centers hence Beaty getting way overshadowed by the superstars. So I'll give Wilkens the edge.

Not on list:

Zelmo Beaty - Wanted to put him on but switched to Wilkens.

Moses Malone - Guess he's still good but not sure I would put him above someone like Beaty

Clyde Lovelette - Worth considering but did it in weaker era and Hawks were more successful before him

Mookie Blaylock - expect him to get some attention. Seems like only ok playoff performer though.

Paul Millsap - regular season maybe, weak in playoffs.

Joe Johnson - don't love his attitude

Lou Hudson - good player but in a weak era and didn't carry them to a lot

Pete Maravich - that's a no from me dawg

Al Horford, Kyle Korver, Tree Rollins, Doc Rivers, Steve Smith - good players but not quite good enough. Horford's most valuable version is in Boston in my opinion.

Dutchball97 · Post #8 » by **Dutchball97** » Mon May 10, 2021 4:03 pm

1. Bob Pettit, 1962/63 - I think we've got a pretty clear #1 but the year might still stir up some discussion. Pettit was in his prime for pretty much his entire career so it won't matter too much which year is picked. While the regular seasons are a toss up his 63 post-season stands out as his best imo.

2. Cliff Hagan, 1957/58 - Great regular season, insane play-offs. Even though Nique and Mutombo have arguments to be better players overall, neither had a season as complete as Hagan's 57/58.

3. Dikembe Mutombo, 1996/97 - DPOY with decent enough offense. I have him 3rd because unlike most of the other remaining high profile candidates he stepped up big in the post-season.

4. Dominique Wilkins, 1986/87 - Great regular season performer, mediocre in the play-offs. I'm probably lower on him than most here tbh. Both the 87 and 88 post-seasons were solid though so I went with his best regular season.

5. Zelmo Beaty, 1967/68 - Almost went with Mookie here but Zelmo held up way better in the post-season. Whether his teammate Wilkens was more important in 67/68 is an interesting discussion but I'm siding with Beaty on that one as well. Like Dr Positivity already noted, lots of guys here who could reasonably get mentions with little seperating them.

Djoker · Post #9 » by **Djoker** » Mon May 10, 2021 4:47 pm

1. 1958-1959 Bob Pettit

One of the most underrated players ever that used to get plenty of love for GOAT PF. Led the Hawks to a title over an injured Russell and the Celtics in 1958 and became the first to put up 50 points in a playoff game. He was also a terrific rebounder and won league MVP in this season. Not sure if he was a better player in the following seasons. He peaked statistically in 1961-1962.

2. 1957-1958 Cliff Hagan

He was almost as dominant as Pettit in the 1958 title run, arguably even more so before the finals.

3. 1987-1988 Dominique Wilkins

One of the best players ever not to have any kind of significant team success. Wilkins scored at a very high clip on average volume and didn't excel outside of scoring but he did a good job raising those decent Hawks teams. For instance this year he led his team to a 7-game series against Bird's Celtics where Wilkins performed really well.

4. 2019-2020 Trae Young

I know the team wasn't good but he put up really good numbers. And this current season is kind of validating him as well. He's still putting up similar numbers and his team is the 5th seed in the conference with a few games left. Trae's deep shooting, good ball handling, and solid passing make him like a cheap reproduction of Steph which is still a really good player.

5. 1996-1997 Dikembe Mutombo

Limited offense but all time great defense and rebounding. His defense changed the game, simple as that and he was really good in the playoffs.

HM: Pete Maravich, Lou Hudson, Zelmo Beaty, Joe Johnson, Moses Malone, Al Horford, Mookie Blaylock

prolific passer · Post #10 » by **prolific passer** » Mon May 10, 2021 6:53 pm

1. 60-61 Bob Pettit
28 and 20 on the season. Tied with Wilt for 2nd in defensive win shares.
2. 59-60 Cliff Hagan
25 11 4-5apg for the regular season. Had a goos playoffs as well.
3. 92-93 Nique.
His most well rounded season after coming back from a nearly career ending injury.
4. 99-00 Deke
Still great defensively with his best rebounding season (leading the league). Too bad the hawks sucked that season though.
5. 67-68 Wilkens.
2nd in mvp voting while playing on the best team in the west regular season wise.

HeartBreakKid · Post #11 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon May 10, 2021 10:03 pm

1) 1962 Bob Pettit - His best statistical season. Too bad he missed the playoffs.

2) 1958 Cliff Hagan - All time great scoring run. Was the best player on the Hawks during their sole championship journey.

3) 1997 Dikembe Mutumbo - Top ten defender ever, and was the anchor to a 56 win team. His defense is more scalable than what Dominique would give you.

4) 1993 Dominique Wilkins - Too one dimensional and not good enough at the dimension he's specialized in to be put ahead of the other 3. Picked an older version of Wilkins for the better shooting and more mature out look on basketball.

5) 1973 Lou Hudson - Best scorer left by a good margin. Never had a deep playoff run, but looking at multiple first rounders it seemed like his game took a hit but not a big one. He was still a reliable volume scorer. Was thinking Clyde goes here because Clyde can pass and has crazy range for a big of his era - but I'm not sure how good Lovellette's defense is - pretty sure he had a reputation for being a good one but it might have been bolstered by his thugery reputation.

homecourtloss · Post #12 » by **homecourtloss** » Tue May 11, 2021 2:32 am

1. 1959 Bob Pettit. Stats have been mentioned, was mentioned as a GOAT candidate along with Mikan before Russell and Wilt. Really fun to watch in highlights. Elevation on the jumpshot, good first step.

2. 1958 Hagan. Incredible playoff run seals it.

3. 1997 Dikembe. Even better defensively in 1998 but better playoffs run and plus offense in 1997.

4. 1993 Dominique. Volume scorer, non defender, non passer on not impressive efficiency but this was one of his more efficient seasons and he led an impressive offense.

5. 2015 Horford. Best player on a 60 win team. Tempted to put Korver and his 70% TS and high, high finish in RPM/RAPM, or Mookie and his tremendous ON-OFF plus/minus season in 1997.

Odinn21 · Post #13 » by **Odinn21** » Tue May 11, 2021 4:53 am

70sFan wrote:From my observations, Moses was weak defender at this point. He could still use some tricks in the post and he wasn't slow on his feet, but his effort wasn't good and he didn't have much verticality anymore. Don't forget that he wasn't big for a center either.

I think he can make top 5, but it's far from given

On my notes, I have Moses as a decent defender from 1986-87 to 1988-89 with good consistency. Though, I'd assume that you have seen more of him than me? Especially for regular season games. The games I had were playoffs games and 2-3 games from each regular season in that 3 season span.

By the way, I was thinking like "Deke is a lock for 3rd, heck, he might be #2 in here" but I'm surprised by the votes not having him in the top 3.
Another opinion on the votes; 1988 should be the season for Nique over 1993 for sure imho.
I love those Wilkens/Beaty shouts.

prolific passer · Post #14 » by **prolific passer** » Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 am

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:From my observations, Moses was weak defender at this point. He could still use some tricks in the post and he wasn't slow on his feet, but his effort wasn't good and he didn't have much verticality anymore. Don't forget that he wasn't big for a center either.

I think he can make top 5, but it's far from given

On my notes, I have Moses as a decent defender from 1986-87 to 1988-89 with good consistency. Though, I'd assume that you have seen more of him than me? Especially for regular season games. The games I had were playoffs games and 2-3 games from each regular season in that 3 season span.

By the way, I was thinking like "Deke is a lock for 3rd, heck, he might be #2 in here" but I'm surprised by the votes not having him in the top 3.
Another opinion on the votes; 1988 should be the season for Nique over 1993 for sure imho.
I love those Wilkens/Beaty shouts.

Most people are picking his 93 seasons because he was hitting on all strides offensively after coming back from what could have been a career ending injury.
For me I like his 87 season. Best player on the 2nd best team in the east record wise. Nique and Pettit really had a bunch of seasons in which you could say was their best and you wouldn't get many arguments.

Dr Positivity · Post #15 » by **Dr Positivity** » Tue May 11, 2021 6:31 am

My guess is Dominique wasn't playing much defense at 33, post Achilles tear and on 23/27 ranked defensive team. Makes it easier to put up offensive numbers sometimes whereas Fratello system would have likely been more demanding effort wise at least.

70sFan · Post #16 » by **70sFan** » Tue May 11, 2021 6:45 am

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:From my observations, Moses was weak defender at this point. He could still use some tricks in the post and he wasn't slow on his feet, but his effort wasn't good and he didn't have much verticality anymore. Don't forget that he wasn't big for a center either.

I think he can make top 5, but it's far from given

On my notes, I have Moses as a decent defender from 1986-87 to 1988-89 with good consistency. Though, I'd assume that you have seen more of him than me? Especially for regular season games. The games I had were playoffs games and 2-3 games from each regular season in that 3 season span.

By the way, I was thinking like "Deke is a lock for 3rd, heck, he might be #2 in here" but I'm surprised by the votes not having him in the top 3.
Another opinion on the votes; 1988 should be the season for Nique over 1993 for sure imho.
I love those Wilkens/Beaty shouts.

I watched around 10 Moses games from the Hawks, so I don't have that much bigger sample. I think that Moses looked clearly better defensively on Bullets than in Atlanta but again - I'd have to rewatch more games from that period. I am focusing on peaks right now (so 1982 and 1983 for Moses) and it's clear to me that Malone regressed on defense as the time went on.

I also find it strange that some people don't have Mutombo inside top 3. I have a very tough time to decide between him and Hagan for the 3rd spot.

70sFan · Post #17 » by **70sFan** » Tue May 11, 2021 7:00 am

1. 1962/63 Bob Pettit - easy choice for the first spot, GOAT Hawks player by far. I have a tough time picking a season, decided to go with the best postseason run.

2. 1958/59 Cliff Hagan - better RS than in 1958, another amazing postseason performance.

3. 1996/97 Dikembe Mutombo - one of the best defenders ever, there is a big decline after him.

4. 1987/88 Dominique Wilkins - I love watching Nique, but he is overrated historically. That said, his 1988 season was certainly impressive.

5. 1967/68 Lenny Wilkens - I thought about Beaty, Blaylock, Moses and Horford, but decided to go with very smart and efficient PG who was the leader of quality 1968 team.

Hawks franchise lack top tier talent relative to the most talented ones ever, but they have very deep talent pool. Huge improvement from the Grizzlies thread.

HeartBreakKid · Post #18 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue May 11, 2021 7:01 am

70sFan wrote:1. 1962/63 Bob Pettit - easy choice for the first spot, GOAT Hawks player by far. I have a tough time picking a season, decided to go with the best postseason run.

2. 1958/59 Cliff Hagan - better RS than in 1958, another amazing postseason performance.

3. 1996/97 Dikembe Mutombo - one of the best defenders ever, there is a big decline after him.

4. 1987/88 Dominique Wilkins - I love watching Nique, but he is overrated historically. That said, his 1988 season was certainly impressive.

5. 1967/68 Lenny Wilkens - I thought about Beaty, Blaylock, Moses and Horford, but decided to go with very smart and efficient PG who was the leader of quality 1968 team.

Hawks franchise lack top tier talent relative to the most talented ones ever, but they have very deep talent pool. Huge improvement from the Grizzlies thread.

What do you think of Hudson?

Indeed the 5th place spot has a lot of guys you can go with for the Hawks. They have nearly 10 guys for that 5th place spot who could place top 2 or 3 for the Grizzlies.

70sFan · Post #19 » by **70sFan** » Tue May 11, 2021 7:12 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
70sFan wrote:1. 1962/63 Bob Pettit - easy choice for the first spot, GOAT Hawks player by far. I have a tough time picking a season, decided to go with the best postseason run.

2. 1958/59 Cliff Hagan - better RS than in 1958, another amazing postseason performance.

3. 1996/97 Dikembe Mutombo - one of the best defenders ever, there is a big decline after him.

4. 1987/88 Dominique Wilkins - I love watching Nique, but he is overrated historically. That said, his 1988 season was certainly impressive.

5. 1967/68 Lenny Wilkens - I thought about Beaty, Blaylock, Moses and Horford, but decided to go with very smart and efficient PG who was the leader of quality 1968 team.

Hawks franchise lack top tier talent relative to the most talented ones ever, but they have very deep talent pool. Huge improvement from the Grizzlies thread.
What do you think of Hudson?

Indeed the 5th place spot has a lot of guys you can go with for the Hawks. They have nearly 10 guys for that 5th place spot who could place top 2 or 3 for the Grizzlies.

I like watching him playing, he was very fundamentally sound scorer and excellent shooter. I didn't pick him because he played horrible against the Lakers in 1970 playoffs.

Another interesting mention is Joe Caldwell - excellent all-around player and freakish athlete. He had very strong RS in 1970 and he played better than Sweet Lou in playoffs.

HeartBreakKid · Post #20 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue May 11, 2021 7:14 am

70sFan wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
70sFan wrote:1. 1962/63 Bob Pettit - easy choice for the first spot, GOAT Hawks player by far. I have a tough time picking a season, decided to go with the best postseason run.

2. 1958/59 Cliff Hagan - better RS than in 1958, another amazing postseason performance.

3. 1996/97 Dikembe Mutombo - one of the best defenders ever, there is a big decline after him.

4. 1987/88 Dominique Wilkins - I love watching Nique, but he is overrated historically. That said, his 1988 season was certainly impressive.

5. 1967/68 Lenny Wilkens - I thought about Beaty, Blaylock, Moses and Horford, but decided to go with very smart and efficient PG who was the leader of quality 1968 team.

Hawks franchise lack top tier talent relative to the most talented ones ever, but they have very deep talent pool. Huge improvement from the Grizzlies thread.
What do you think of Hudson?

Indeed the 5th place spot has a lot of guys you can go with for the Hawks. They have nearly 10 guys for that 5th place spot who could place top 2 or 3 for the Grizzlies.

I like watching him playing, he was very fundamentally sound scorer and excellent shooter. I didn't pick him because he played horrible against the Lakers in 1970 playoffs.

Another interesting mention is Joe Caldwell - excellent all-around player and freakish athlete. He had very strong RS in 1970 and he played better than Sweet Lou in playoffs.

I was thinking of switching my vote to Caldwell, but I feel like I'll flood the thread with vote changes.