[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Fri May 14, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Hornets franchise history.

As Charlotte Hornets from 2014-15 to today
As Charlotte Bobcats from 2004-05 to 2013-14
As Charlotte Hornets from 1988-89 to 2001-02


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Oklahoma City Thunder
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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Spoiler:
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Doctor MJ wrote:.

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Dr Positivity wrote:.

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The issue with per75 numbers;
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Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#2 » by Joao Saraiva » Fri May 14, 2021 3:05 pm

Has the Jazz one been done? That's the one I'm interested in.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#3 » by sansterre » Fri May 14, 2021 3:14 pm

Holy balls this'll be rough. Not a lot of good choices here, which means every choice is a good choice.

#1. 2000 Eddie Jones - The freaking Hornets have four players that have ever broken 10 Win Shares. This is a thing that happened (or more accurately, didn't happen). 2000 Eddie Jones has the highest regular season VORP of any Hornet ever (at 4.9, it's a low bar people). He wasn't a great scorer, though 23% usage and +3.2% shooting are solid. But in 2000 he led the league in steals and was a Grade A defensive beast. And lest you think that VORP overrates his defense because of the box score (a reasonable concern) his AuRPM for the year was +6.5, the highest of any Hornet being considered. And he even put up a +3.5 OBPM in the playoffs. I'm not saying he's super great . . . but I don't know if there's anyone ebtter.

#2. 2010 Gerald Wallace - top Win Shares here (11.5), 6th highest VORP (3.7) and tied for 4th highest AuRPM (+2.6). And he posted a +4.4 OBPM in the playoffs. Really not thrilled with him here. But . . . not a lot of competition.

#3. 2016 Kemba Walker - Again, sufficient combination of stats (9.9 Win Shares is 5th, 4.3 VORP is 3rd, +2.6 AuRPM is tied for 4th) and a decent playoffs (+3.8 OBPM).

#4. 1995 Alonzo Mourning - this is completely arbitrary. But the other guys I'm looking at all had AuRPMs below +2 and Mourning's at +3.8. Yeah, his other stats aren't great (9.4 Win Shares and 2.3 VORP) but I had to draw the line somewhere.

#5. 1997 Glen Rice - highest Win Shares remaining and a strong playoffs (+6.4 OBPM over 3 games) makes this an . . . entry. Not sure about how good it is.

Considered: 1998 Anthony Mason, 2008 Jason Richardson, 1996 Larry Johnson

Seriously. Besides Eddie Jones at #1 I've got nothing.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#4 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 14, 2021 3:21 pm

Sheesh, this franchise is depressing.

Joao Saraiva wrote:Has the Jazz one been done? That's the one I'm interested in.

It's in alphabetical order. The Jazz are coming up soon.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#5 » by Dr Positivity » Fri May 14, 2021 3:25 pm

sansterre wrote:#2. 2004 Baron Davis


That's a New Orleans season.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#6 » by sansterre » Fri May 14, 2021 3:32 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
sansterre wrote:#2. 2004 Baron Davis


That's a New Orleans season.

Good call.

Post edited.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#7 » by Dr Positivity » Fri May 14, 2021 3:52 pm

One of the ones I was looking forward to :D

1. Eddie Jones 2000 - 20 pts and elite 3 and D player, excellent +/- (+11.7, 5th on ascreamingacrosshtecourt RAPM), good WS and BPM, on a winning team.

2. Gerald Wallace 2010 - Good two way impact this season and unique rebounding for a SF (12 a game the first few months of the season), best player on a playoff team

3. Vlade Divac 1997 - Idk, it seems like he was in his prime and I always liked Divac's impact. The +/- supports him more than Mason as the secret hero of this team and more than Rice, in an era low key the peak of the Hornets not the Mourning Johnson ones. I assume Cowens was a good coach for him.

4. Glen Rice 1997 - Best offensive season here probably at 27ppg 47% 3pt on a good team, 5th MVP, yes it seems like a situation where the scorer gets the credit for what good role players do, but what's the competition for this spot?

5. Anthony Mason 1997 - Pretty solid 16/11/6 although on a lot of minutes as a poor man's Draymond, good advanced stats with .173 WS/48, 3.5 BPM on elite regular season team

HM:

Mourning - Tempting to just put a 21, 10 and 3 guy on here, but weaker advanced stats and it's not like he was showing up in all nba or MVP votes (Larry Johnson made a 2nd team in this era although against easier competition).

Kemba - Easy to put up PG stats in this era and his peak stat stuffing/success don't quite match up

LJ - Good offensive season but I decided to go with some role player type guys over it.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#8 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 14, 2021 4:04 pm

1) 1995 Alonzo Mourning - Defensive two way beast. Easily the best player they've had when factoring in defense. Was underrated before he went to Miami. Media was more concerned with Muggsy and LJ.

2) 2002 Baron Davis - Not positive on this one, but I've always been a fan of his playmaking. He didn't have a bad playoffs either. Baron struggles with shooting and defense, but I think it was good enough this season to not hold back his passing. The Hornets haven't had many great creators, so Baron sticks out.

3) 2010 Gerald Wallace - I was going to give this to LJ at first but then I realized I am kind of just going off of name value. Larry Johnson was such a big name for a guy who didn't do that much back in the day while Gerald Wallace....was not. Crash really only had one great season, but he did everything very well. The scoring between him and LJ is surprisingly not much, and I am almost positive Crash was a better defender than LJ.

4) 1996 Larry Johnson - Similar strengths to Crash but more passing and perhaps better shooting relative to his era. LJ is a weaker defender though.

5) 2000 Eddie Jones - Eddie is one of those "super roleplayer" types. He's a glue guy. He's a solid shooter, he can create his own shot and he's a great defender - but he's not really out wordly at any of those things but clearly better than a typical roleplayer at any one of those things. This last spot was between him and Rice and I think Jones portability is a major strength. Rice is really awful defensively, so while 1997 was a great scoring season the net difference is likely in Jones favor. Glen was just too one dimensional if he wasn't the first option.

Kemba Walker doesn't make it because his scoring just isn't special enough. He doesn't give you much passing and he's a bad defender usually as well. He never had much chance to prove himself as a playoff player either. Portability matters more for these level of players.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#9 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 14, 2021 4:08 pm

I did not consider Vlade Divac. How was his defense at that point in his career?

I really forgot he was on the Hornets. If he was still putting in full effort he might get a good ranking from me.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#10 » by Colbinii » Fri May 14, 2021 4:22 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I did not consider Vlade Divac. How was his defense at that point in his career?


It was very good. Unfortunately he was on a team with Glen Rice, Muggsy Bogues, Dell Curry and Tony Smith--all negative defenders.

The team was a ~105 defense with Vlade and ~111 without him.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#11 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 14, 2021 4:26 pm

Colbinii wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I did not consider Vlade Divac. How was his defense at that point in his career?


It was very good. Unfortunately he was on a team with Glen Rice, Muggsy Bogues, Dell Curry and Tony Smith--all negative defenders.

The team was a ~105 defense with Vlade and ~111 without him.


Hm...that makes a lot of sense. This complicates things for me....might have to knock out Jones or Johnson off my list.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Fri May 14, 2021 4:34 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Sheesh, this franchise is depressing.

Joao Saraiva wrote:Has the Jazz one been done? That's the one I'm interested in.

It's in alphabetical order. The Jazz are coming up soon.


I wouldn't say soon . . . I would say, someday in the far distant future if the project keeps going. Of course I'm a Wizard fan so it's even worse for us (but then, what isn't?).
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#13 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 14, 2021 4:38 pm

Vote change. Adding Vlade Divac to my list.

HeartBreakKid wrote:1) 1995 Alonzo Mourning - Defensive two way beast. Easily the best player they've had when factoring in defense. Was underrated before he went to Miami. Media was more concerned with Muggsy and LJ.

2) 2002 Baron Davis - Not positive on this one, but I've always been a fan of his playmaking. He didn't have a bad playoffs either. Baron struggles with shooting and defense, but I think it was good enough this season to not hold back his passing. The Hornets haven't had many great creators, so Baron sticks out.

3) 2010 Gerald Wallace - I was going to give this to LJ at first but then I realized I am kind of just going off of name value. Larry Johnson was such a big name for a guy who didn't do that much back in the day while Gerald Wallace....was not. Crash really only had one great season, but he did everything very well. The scoring between him and LJ is surprisingly not much, and I am almost positive Crash was a better defender than LJ.

4) 1996 Larry Johnson - Similar strengths to Crash but more passing and perhaps better shooting relative to his era. LJ is a weaker defender though.

5) 2000 Eddie Jones - Eddie is one of those "super roleplayer" types. He's a glue guy. He's a solid shooter, he can create his own shot and he's a great defender - but he's not really out wordly at any of those things but clearly better than a typical roleplayer at any one of those things. This last spot was between him and Rice and I think Jones portability is a major strength. Rice is really awful defensively, so while 1997 was a great scoring season the net difference is likely in Jones favor. Glen was just too one dimensional if he wasn't the first option.

Kemba Walker doesn't make it because his scoring just isn't special enough. He doesn't give you much passing and he's a bad defender usually as well. He never had much chance to prove himself as a playoff player either. Portability matters more for these level of players.


1) 1995 Alonzo Mourning - Defensive two way beast. Easily the best player they've had when factoring in defense. Was underrated before he went to Miami. Media was more concerned with Muggsy and LJ.

2) 1997 Vlade Divac - I don't think I ever saw a single game from Vlade during his pit stop in Charlotte. But given this is right in between his LA and SAC run, he had to have been pretty dang good still. I'm not positive if he's my #2 guy or #3, but he does a lot of the good things you want in a basketball player. After Mourning, most of my votes are going to who is the best "team" player and portability is playing a big factor because most of these guys aren't anywhere near consistent or good enough to be an anchor. Vlade is an excellent defender and passer, and a very good rebounder. His only weakness is that he's not much of a scorer, but he still plays team basketball very well, so it off sets that.

3) 2002 Baron Davis - Not positive on this one, but I've always been a fan of his playmaking. He didn't have a bad playoffs either. Baron struggles with shooting and defense, but I think it was good enough this season to not hold back his passing. The Hornets haven't had many great creators, so Baron sticks out.

4) 2010 Gerald Wallace - I was going to give this to LJ at first but then I realized I am kind of just going off of name value. Larry Johnson was such a big name for a guy who didn't do that much back in the day while Gerald Wallace....was not. Crash really only had one great season, but he did everything very well. The scoring between him and LJ is surprisingly not much, and I am almost positive Crash was a better defender than LJ.

5) 1996 Larry Johnson - Similar strengths to Crash but more passing and perhaps better shooting relative to his era. LJ is a weaker defender though.


Not positive about leaving Eddie Jones out of LJ. I can see myself changing my vote on that.


Rice is really awful defensively, so while 1997 was a great scoring season the net difference is likely in Johnson and Jones favor.

Kemba Walker doesn't make it because his scoring just isn't special enough. He doesn't give you much passing and he's a bad defender usually as well. He never had much chance to prove himself as a playoff player either.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#14 » by Dr Positivity » Fri May 14, 2021 4:39 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Sheesh, this franchise is depressing.

Joao Saraiva wrote:Has the Jazz one been done? That's the one I'm interested in.

It's in alphabetical order. The Jazz are coming up soon.


I wouldn't say soon . . . I would say, someday in the far distant future if the project keeps going. Of course I'm a Wizard fan so it's even worse for us (but then, what isn't?).


I think it's going by the J instead of the U so Jazz are imminent
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#15 » by penbeast0 » Fri May 14, 2021 4:47 pm

Ah, my mistake, of course Wizards are still down at the tail end of the universe.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#16 » by homecourtloss » Fri May 14, 2021 5:04 pm

Difficult franchise to do this for.

1. 2000 Eddie Jones. Two way impact, high impact defensively in playoffs as well. There are probably 5+ peaks from the Hawks we just did better than Jones’s peak, but there it is.

2. 2010 Wallace. Best defensive player on the best defensive team in the NBA in the regular season who also showed positive offensive impact.

3. 1995 Mourning. This is just before his great Miami stretch where he showed the signs of what he could be.

4. 2016 Kemba. His 2014 season could also be here.

5. 1997 Vlade. Overall more impact than Rice who had a great shooting season but as per usual played awful defense.

HM. Baron 2002, Glen Rice 1997
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#17 » by Odinn21 » Fri May 14, 2021 5:16 pm

1. 2000 Eddie Jones
Good combination of offense and defense. He was not just a good box metric player, he was a great impact player too, ended up in the top 1% in impact metrics (both RAPM and PIPM). Clearly the #1 player for me in here.

2. 1995 Alonzo Mourning
Well, I did not have many full games of the Hornets in the '90s because my archive mostly contained the playoffs games. But in the playoffs games and also a few regular season games, Mourning was quite good. I could not find a reason to peg his performances I got to watch. Maybe I should put him over EJ for #1, might change this one. This is what I have right now though. Mourning's offense was not as quite polished as he was in Miami though. That's why I have him at #2 instead of #1.

3. 2002 Baron Davis
The only remaining player with good counting stats and also good impact. He had good offensive output and it was not like his impact suffered from anything (top 3% in RAPM and PIPM) which correlates with my recollection of him.

4. 1997 Vlade Divac
This is where it starts to get really interesting because some of the players had counting numbers going for them, some of them (Divac being one) had impact going for them. Divac was still in his prime. His good defensive impact coupled with great facilitating abilities on offense really helped the team.

5. 2010 Gerald Wallace
Along with Iguodala in Philly, Gerald Wallace is one of my examples for "how a team can be desperate for scoring volume". He was a player that should not be trying to score that many points. It took away from his offensive impact. Otoh, he was a great defender. I considered him and Larry Johnson for this spot and Wallace being a better impact player with similar counting stats is the reason why I went with him.

---

This was quite a challenge. :lol:

---

Dr Positivity wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Sheesh, this franchise is depressing.


It's in alphabetical order. The Jazz are coming up soon.


I wouldn't say soon . . . I would say, someday in the far distant future if the project keeps going. Of course I'm a Wizard fan so it's even worse for us (but then, what isn't?).


I think it's going by the J instead of the U so Jazz are imminent

If you click the 1st spoiler button in the OP, you'd see the Jazz franchise is the next one. :D
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#18 » by falcolombardi » Fri May 14, 2021 6:14 pm

is a bit depressing when a franchise top 5 players dont look like a championship team, i thinl they are the first franchise where they wouldnt win a ring

would this 5 man roster even beat the lakers this year

divac/ mourning/ gerald wallace/ eddie jones/kemba?

also this makes me curipus to put franchises top 5 against litmus tests like

would your franchise top 5 beat the 2020 lakers?

or for extra hard mode

would it beat the 2017 warriors? and see how many of this board top 5's would pass the tests
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#19 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 14, 2021 6:25 pm

It's a championship level team certainly. It's better/more talented than the 2002 Kings roster for example.

Most franchises would beat the 2020 Lakers pretty handily. I mean many franchises themselves have had championship rosters in real life, even without making an all time list.

2017 Warriors is a better question.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hornets 

Post#20 » by falcolombardi » Fri May 14, 2021 6:37 pm

howard/davis/lebron/kcp/rondo

divac/mourning/gerald wallace /eddie johnson/kemba

lakers have the clear cut 2 best offensive players on court and the better defense (most likely, charlotte frontcourt trio is pretty nice)

are we sure they could deal with lakers?

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