[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Sun May 16, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Jazz franchise history.

As Utah Jazz from 1979-80 to today
As New Orleans Jazz from 1974-75 to 1978-79


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Oklahoma City Thunder
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Sun May 16, 2021 3:00 pm

1. 1998 Karl Malone
Obvious choice.

2. 1984 Adrian Dantley
This was the season Dantley's efficient scoring meant so, so much and had one of the best one-man army seasons like Wade's 2009. He had one of the rare seasons with 4+ TS Add per 36, not only that, he was almost at 5 TS Add per 36 mark with +4.88.
Then in the postseason he kept going strong. He scored 32.2 ppg on +5.5 rts.
He had decent rebounding numbers, he was also a decent facilitator unlike his reputation. I think he's clearly the #2 player in here. He should be as obvious as Malone but his quality is rather controversial for many and I thought I had to mention these things.

3. 2017 Rudy Gobert
I'd expect this to be highly controversial but I've never been a huge fan of Stockton's peak. It's either 1991, 1992 or 1997 for Stockton (he had so many postseaon resilience issues in between) and I would take none of them over this Gobert season. In terms of impact numbers, both players are in the top 1%. So, there's not a difference on there. I know Stockton is a monster in +/- driven numbers, but so is Gobert. And I just prefer Gobert's defense over Stockton's more well-rounded game.
Though I feel like picking Gobert over Stockton would be less controversial if 2021 version was eligible for this project.

4. 1997 John Stockton
Well, it's obvious by now.

5. 2010 Deron Williams
It was a shame that his fallout with Sloan took away so much from his career but he peaked high enough to be in there over massive +/- monsters as Kirilenko and Hornacek. To be sure, I checked Williams' +/- derivatives and he was in the top 3% in RAPM and PIPM sources I have. With the role he was playing and the output he was having, that +/- numbers are more than enough to have him over the other 2 imho.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#3 » by Dr Positivity » Sun May 16, 2021 3:44 pm

1. Karl Malone 1998 - Season choice comes down to playoffs and he did pretty well in this one

2. John Stockton 1995 - Seems like peak stats/accolades wise, a little faster than finals years

3. Deron Williams 2010 - I'm not a big fan of his personality but he was a legit elite PG and best player on multiple 50 W teams.

4. Adrian Dantley 1984 - I question his impact due to ball stopping/defense but nonetheless he put up monster scoring numbers and did well in the playoffs this year

5. Rudy Gobert 2019 - Good regular season impact but has been gameplanned against in the playoffs. 2021 season has a chance for 3rd.

HM:

AK - I don't love that he peaked on mediocre team and then couldn't keep it up once they got more talent. Otherwise I can see argument for him over Gobert

Hayward - Felt like he was close to Gobert in 2017. Like KLove it's hard not to hold his more recent years against him.

Boozer - I actually legit considered this one as he pretty good in Jazz WCF run as the best guy on this team over 07 Deron, but +/- impact isn't quite there at -0.5. His ORAPM is outstanding but DRAPM bad.

Hornacek - I don't know if I can pull the trigger when he was a 3rd guy
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#4 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun May 16, 2021 4:12 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:1. Karl Malone 1998 - Season choice comes down to playoffs and he did pretty well in this one

2. John Stockton 1995 - Seems like peak stats/accolades wise, a little faster than finals years

3. Deron Williams 2010 - I'm not a big fan of his personality but he was a legit elite PG and best player on multiple 50 W teams.

4. Adrian Dantley 1984 - I question his impact due to ball stopping/defense but nonetheless he put up monster scoring numbers and did well in the playoffs this year

5. Rudy Gobert 2019 - Good regular season impact but has been gameplanned against in the playoffs. 2021 season has a chance for 3rd.

HM:

AK - I don't love that he peaked on mediocre team and then couldn't keep it up once they got more talent. Otherwise I can see argument for him over Gobert

Hayward - Felt like he was close to Gobert in 2017. Like KLove it's hard not to hold his more recent years against him.


Boozer - I actually legit considered this one as he pretty good in Jazz WCF run as the best guy on this team over 07 Deron, but +/- impact isn't quite there at -0.5. His ORAPM is outstanding but DRAPM bad.

Hornacek - I don't know if I can pull the trigger when he was a 3rd guy
How is he like Kevin Love? He has been a substantially better player than Love, and he doesn't really have any attitude problems that I'm aware of. Obviously Jazz fans weren't happy he left.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#5 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun May 16, 2021 4:36 pm

1) 1992 John Stockton - I've been thinking about this for years, but I've pretty much just been ranking Malone over Stockton because that's what everyone else does. It does remind me that in the 90s people used to argue who was better. Stockton aged worse than Malone, and by the late 90s when the Jazz became the team, the media tried to make Malone public enemy #1 to Jordan and propped him as the greatest power forward of all time. Stockton was regulated more to 2nd fiddle, which at the time I suppose he clearly was, but still - people talk as if Stockton is some feeble scorer, too shy to take initiative, he may as well be Ricky Rubio in the eyes of some people. Stockton not only averaged a sickening amount of assist, which alone is already matching Malone's raw volume of points in value, but he put up a mega efficient 18 points per game. That isn't bad at all...that's like a 20+ scorer in today's league. Stockton was also an amazing shooter, and even lead the league in TS% despite being a 6 foot point guard who made one 3 pointer per game. The biggest reason why I am not big on Malone is because his scoring just isn't good in the playoffs, it's clear to me that he has problems creating his own offense in half court situations. Even in his peak year, which I suppose most will say is one of his finals years - his TS% drops off significantly. And we have many, many, seasons where this has happened - we know it's not a fluke, Karl Malone's scoring isn't "real". Stockton on the other hand is more resilient, and when he does drop off it usually isn't as significant, and because scoring isn't his forte it's not that big of a deal anyway - in many ways Malone does not do his "role" correctly. Malone's passing and defense has always been the best things about him, but I'm not sure if that is more valuable to what Stockton brings to the table.

2) 1998 Karl Malone - Well, he's still Karl Malone so yeah, he gets to go here. I know I took a crap on him in order to put Stockton over him, but he's pretty clearly better than everyone else. I just think Stockton is very underrated, even more so than Malone is overrated (I actually don't think he is overrated anymore, not much around here at least).

3) 2020 Rody Gobert - Best defender of the current era. He often tops the the alphabet soup of defensive stats, and even edges out Draymond Green in the RS. His PS woes are greatly exaggerated. Most players still can't get in the paint when playing against Rudy, and that's a pretty big deal. I think AK-47's offense drops off too much in the playoffs and Williams/Dantly have more questionable impact.

4) 1984 Adrian Dantley - I do think that around the late 00s and early 10s when people started to look more into efficient volume scoring, they found someone who was a relatively forgotten and unsuccessful name in Adrian Dantley put up Michael Jordan like scoring numbers, and kind of had to say "well, he plays like a loser" in order to not to put Adrian into the pantheon of all time great scorers. Now, he does have some well weaknesses - defense being the worst thing. He didn't play off other players either. But I think he is pretty similar to Bernard King in a lot of ways.

5) 2017 Gordon Hayward - I don't think he was really any worse than Rudy Gobert in 2017. He is what I call a super glue guy, not too different from Eddie Jones who topped the Hornets list - actually, Hayward is probably more well rounded. Hayward is a great defender, great off ball player, equally good at cutting and catch and shooting, he can isolate, he rebounds, he passes. He really does it all. He can play with ensemble casts with little problems. He was very underrated in Boston because he was dealing with an ankle injury, but if he had been healthy his last season Boston would have probably made the finals. I don't even think it is crazy to say Hayward was the best player on the 2020 Celtics. We already saw his impact with the Hornets as well this year. I think 2017 Hayward is pretty much the first year where he really "got it" and the start of his true prime (which he's spent a lot of it shelved).


Deron Williams...not sure, just not convinced by him. But I might come around.I actually thought he was a bit underrated in the early Nets years when he got tore apart, but I have to refresh my memory of him.

Actually was going to put Zelmo Beaty at #3, but I realized the Utah Stars are not the same lineage as the Jazz.

Mark Eaton is a guy who kind of gets killed by the "time travel" argument. In his time he was a pretty damning defender, though I think he also killed the Jazz's offense - and playing alongside a relatively stiff exclusive post player in Dantley really messed up that side of the ball big time.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#6 » by Dr Positivity » Sun May 16, 2021 4:40 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:How is he like Kevin Love? He has been a substantially better player than Love, and he doesn't really have any attitude problems that I'm aware of. Obviously Jazz fans weren't happy he left.


I meant more 2015-2018 Love where he just wasn't the same guy as on his first team and made me question whether he was ever as talented as his numbers in Min. Obviously Hayward can blame injuries more. It also might not be fair since I could say the same about Deron who I rated 3rd. I also disagree that post Jazz Hayward is better than 15-18 Love.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#7 » by Colbinii » Sun May 16, 2021 5:29 pm

1. 1992 John Stockton
2. 1998 Karl Malone


This was difficult and I could be wrong. Stockton's ability as a creator, shot maker and defender anchored the Late 1980s and Early 1990s Jazz teams. Karl Malone often times looks better by the box-score but I can't help but admire John's game more when looking at both players from a modern lens.

I prefer later Karl Malone versus his younger version--in fact I am like this for most players. Malone's defense improved and versatile isolation scoring really cements his older years for me as a player.

3. 2020 Rudy Gobert

Defensively he is the best Jazz player by far and he is a solid defender. Nobody comes that close, but...

4. 2004 Andrei Kirilenko

Great two-way season as he took on responsibility lost from losing Malone.

5. 1984 Adrian Dantley

Not a big fan of his but you can't argue against his effectiveness with his skill-set. Not a fan of his first few years as a Jazz player and prefer this version.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#8 » by Dutchball97 » Sun May 16, 2021 6:00 pm

1. Karl Malone, 1997/98 - I agree with the notion that taking Karl Malone over Stockton isn't a given. That said I do think Karl Malone's 1998 season was the best overall season between them.

2. John Stockton, 1997/97 - Stockton isn't known for a specific peak year because his prime was just so consistently high level for an absurdly long time. It's hard to go wrong with which year to pick so I went with what I view as his best play-off run.

3. Adrian Dantley, 1983/84 - Very strong regular season where he led the league in PER, WS, WS/48 and OBPM. Dantley actually held up really well in the play-offs as well. I don't quite see him on the level of Malone/Stockton but he's a clear 3rd to me.

4. Jeff Hornacek, 1995/96 - I get the reservations about him because of him being a 3rd option but we shouldn't forget that him coming to Utah made them legit title contenders either. In the regular season he wasn't much worse than Deron Williams, Gordon Hayward or Rudy Gobert. On the other hand he massively stepped up in the post-season, while the others all have more questionable post-season performances that were generally a bit worse than they were in the regular season.

5. Deron Williams, 2009/10 - This mainly came down to Williams vs Gobert. I need to see Gobert step up his game somewhat in the play-offs to make my list. It feels a bit odd to leave him off my list entirely but I don't want his stellar 2021 play to impact how I view his earlier seasons.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#9 » by Colbinii » Sun May 16, 2021 6:05 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:1. Karl Malone, 1997/98 - I agree with the notion that taking Karl Malone over Stockton isn't a given. That said I do think Karl Malone's 1998 season was the best overall season between them.

2. John Stockton, 1997/97 - Stockton isn't known for a specific peak year because his prime was just so consistently high level for an absurdly long time. It's hard to go wrong with which year to pick so I went with what I view as his best play-off run.

3. Adrian Dantley, 1983/84 - Very strong regular season where he led the league in PER, WS, WS/48 and OBPM. Dantley actually held up really well in the play-offs as well. I don't quite see him on the level of Malone/Stockton but he's a clear 3rd to me.

4. Jeff Hornacek, 1995/96 - I get the reservations about him because of him being a 3rd option but we shouldn't forget that him coming to Utah made them legit title contenders either. In the regular season he wasn't much worse than Deron Williams, Gordon Hayward or Rudy Gobert. On the other hand he massively stepped up in the post-season, while the others all have more questionable post-season performances that were generally a bit worse than they were in the regular season.

5. Deron Williams, 2009/10 - This mainly came down to Williams vs Gobert. I need to see Gobert step up his game somewhat in the play-offs to make my list. It feels a bit odd to leave him off my list entirely but I don't want his stellar 2021 play to impact how I view his earlier seasons.


What are the arguments for Hornacek and Williams over AK47?

If your argument for Dantley is "Great advanced Metrics", the same should be said for Andrei ahead of Williams and Hornacek.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#10 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun May 16, 2021 6:17 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:1. Karl Malone, 1997/98 - I agree with the notion that taking Karl Malone over Stockton isn't a given. That said I do think Karl Malone's 1998 season was the best overall season between them.

2. John Stockton, 1997/97 - Stockton isn't known for a specific peak year because his prime was just so consistently high level for an absurdly long time. It's hard to go wrong with which year to pick so I went with what I view as his best play-off run.

3. Adrian Dantley, 1983/84 - Very strong regular season where he led the league in PER, WS, WS/48 and OBPM. Dantley actually held up really well in the play-offs as well. I don't quite see him on the level of Malone/Stockton but he's a clear 3rd to me.

4. Jeff Hornacek, 1995/96 - I get the reservations about him because of him being a 3rd option but we shouldn't forget that him coming to Utah made them legit title contenders either. In the regular season he wasn't much worse than Deron Williams, Gordon Hayward or Rudy Gobert. On the other hand he massively stepped up in the post-season, while the others all have more questionable post-season performances that were generally a bit worse than they were in the regular season.

5. Deron Williams, 2009/10 - This mainly came down to Williams vs Gobert. I need to see Gobert step up his game somewhat in the play-offs to make my list. It feels a bit odd to leave him off my list entirely but I don't want his stellar 2021 play to impact how I view his earlier seasons.


Gordon Hayward

22.5/5.5/3.5 with 1.9 turnovers are his RS stats

24/6/3.5 with 1.9 turnovers are his PS stats.

His TS% is .595 in the RS
His TS% is .598 in the PS.



He's actually freakishly consistent going from RS to PS, and is slightly better.

Hornacek's boost in the PS still isn't as good as Gordon's stats, at least it's not a given especially when we consider that Gordon was the #1 option on his team.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#11 » by Dutchball97 » Sun May 16, 2021 6:18 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:1. Karl Malone, 1997/98 - I agree with the notion that taking Karl Malone over Stockton isn't a given. That said I do think Karl Malone's 1998 season was the best overall season between them.

2. John Stockton, 1997/97 - Stockton isn't known for a specific peak year because his prime was just so consistently high level for an absurdly long time. It's hard to go wrong with which year to pick so I went with what I view as his best play-off run.

3. Adrian Dantley, 1983/84 - Very strong regular season where he led the league in PER, WS, WS/48 and OBPM. Dantley actually held up really well in the play-offs as well. I don't quite see him on the level of Malone/Stockton but he's a clear 3rd to me.

4. Jeff Hornacek, 1995/96 - I get the reservations about him because of him being a 3rd option but we shouldn't forget that him coming to Utah made them legit title contenders either. In the regular season he wasn't much worse than Deron Williams, Gordon Hayward or Rudy Gobert. On the other hand he massively stepped up in the post-season, while the others all have more questionable post-season performances that were generally a bit worse than they were in the regular season.

5. Deron Williams, 2009/10 - This mainly came down to Williams vs Gobert. I need to see Gobert step up his game somewhat in the play-offs to make my list. It feels a bit odd to leave him off my list entirely but I don't want his stellar 2021 play to impact how I view his earlier seasons.


What are the arguments for Hornacek and Williams over AK47?

If your argument for Dantley is "Great advanced Metrics", the same should be said for Andrei ahead of Williams and Hornacek.


The Jazz didn't make the post-season in 04. I rate regular season and play-offs pretty much 50/50 so I never vote for guys who missed the post-season.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#12 » by Odinn21 » Sun May 16, 2021 6:23 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:4. Jeff Hornacek, 1995/96 - I get the reservations about him because of him being a 3rd option but we shouldn't forget that him coming to Utah made them legit title contenders either. In the regular season he wasn't much worse than Deron Williams, Gordon Hayward or Rudy Gobert. On the other hand he massively stepped up in the post-season, while the others all have more questionable post-season performances that were generally a bit worse than they were in the regular season.

Hornacek was one of the players benefited from the short line insanely. That should be noted and factored in.
In 1995 playoffs he scored on .578 efg, in 1996 playoffs it was .585 efg. And he's a player that never went higher than .525 efg in the postseason outside of the short line seasons.

We're talking about single season peaks in here and outliers are the main focus themselves. But the situation, the environment Hornacek was in is also an outlier and it needs a consideration.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#13 » by sansterre » Sun May 16, 2021 6:48 pm

#1. 1998 Karl Malone - I really don't feel like I should need to go into detail here; he averaged a +5.7 OBPM in these playoffs so even the postseason isn't a knock.

#2. 1992 John Stockton - Likewise. A really strong season.

#3. 2017 Rudy Gobert - It's hard not to be impressed by this season. His 4.4 VORP isn't really remarkable here, but his 14.3 Win Shares is 3rd in this group and his AuRPM of +5.9 is the best of any of the seasons I was considering. I can see the argument for Dantley here . . . except that VORP doesn't like Dantley any more than Gobert and Dantley probably didn't post Impact numbers this good (though that's speculative).

#4. 1984 Adrian Dantley - Posted efficiency numbers like the pre-Charles Barkley. Most defensive metrics are super-leery of him (however reliable they may or may not be) but you really can't slot him lower than 4th in my mind. And he posted a strong playoffs this year.

#5. 2004 Andrei Kirilenko - I couldn't leave him off. He was only a good scorer (21.9% usage and +4.3% shooting) and wasn't a particularly strong passer (assist% and TO% both around 15.5%) but he rebounded well (13.5%) and was a freak on defense. This season he posted 2.9% steals and 6.3% blocks. Do you realize how nuts that is? Here are all the players to post 2.5% steals or higher with 5.0% blocks or higher:

Hakeem 4 times
Kirilenko 3 times
Ben Wallace 2 times
David Robinson 1 time

Given that, DBPM thinks that Kirilenko had ATG-level defensive impacts; of all guys that never played center DBPM has AK47 having four of the top 30 defensive seasons ever. DBPM isn't usually terribly reliable, but Kirilenko's value is backed up by his posting a +4.4 AuRPM this year (and above +5 the next two years). I love Kirilenko . . . but I didn't feel entirely comfortable putting him ahead of Dantley and Gobert.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#14 » by TroubleS0me » Sun May 16, 2021 10:56 pm

WHAT about Mark Eaton?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#15 » by homecourtloss » Mon May 17, 2021 1:47 am

#1. 1998 Karl Malone - thought about many Stockton seasons and I liked the 1997 regular season better but the 1998 post season run cliched it.
#2. 1992 John Stockton. 1991 Stockton, 1997 Stockton could also go here as could Malone 1998. Age 34 to 40 Stockton’s impact numbers are better than most players’ respective prime numbers. I’m wondering what Stockton’s offensive on-off looked like in the late 80s, early 90s.


#3. 2017 Rudy Gobert - would be 2021 Gobert after this season unless he has a disastrous post seasonal

#4. 2004 Andrei Kirilenko - defensive whirlwind who was a good scorer. Would be even more valuable today being able to play small ball center if need be.

#5. 1984 Adrian Darnley - Don’t like the defense, and his ultra efficient offense didn’t lead to good team offense, but to be this efficient without shooting open corner threes or just dunking it is just remarkable and he played a game nobody else played plays.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#16 » by prolific passer » Mon May 17, 2021 1:50 am

Both Stockton and Malone had their career best seasons in 89-90.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#17 » by Odinn21 » Mon May 17, 2021 2:42 am

homecourtloss wrote:#5. 1984 Adrian Darnley - Don’t like the defense, and his ultra efficient offense didn’t lead to good team offense.

Leading a good team offense is about roster structure. This is like criticizing Curry for not leading a good team offense in 2021 when the #2 scoring option the team is Wiggins. Darrell Griffith was not a high impact offensive piece and John Drew was also not a high impact player and he was playing on a borrowed time. Those were the next best scorers on the team after Dantley.
Dantley's ultra efficient offense was the only reason why the team had +1.4 rORtg in a season none had +4 or higher.

Btw, I'd assume you have 2004 for Kirilenko?
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#18 » by homecourtloss » Mon May 17, 2021 2:58 am

Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:#5. 1984 Adrian Darnley - Don’t like the defense, and his ultra efficient offense didn’t lead to good team offense.

Leading a good team offense is about roster structure. This is like criticizing Curry for not leading a good team offense in 2021 when the #2 scoring option the team is Wiggins. Darrell Griffith was not a high impact offensive piece and John Drew was also not a high impact player and he was playing on a borrowed time. Those were the next best scorers on the team after Dantley.
Dantley's ultra efficient offense was the only reason why the team had +1.4 rORtg in a season none had +4 or higher.

Btw, I'd assume you have 2004 for Kirilenko?


Yes about AK47.

True about Curry this year, but with him on court, Warriors’ offense is equivalent to the 8th best offense in the league. Of course we don’t have that same luxury to find out what Utah’s offense was like with Dantley on court, but it seems unlikely he had this effect so this example isn’t very apt. Their offenses were really poor in some high usage years with incredible rTS% numbers.

1980: - 1.1 rORtg, 15th of 22 offenses
1981: -2.1, 18th of 23
1982: -.7, 13th of 23
1983: -3.5, 20th of 23 [missed 60 games]
1984: +1.4, 9th of 23
1985: -4.6, 21st of 23
1986: -3.0 20th if 23

offense never seemed to result in good offense and in fact even with heavy usage, Utah had bad offenses.
OdomFan wrote:I'd rather have Ray Allen on my team [over Curry].


Hal14 wrote:Not saying I put McHale over Duncan, but the argument can be made.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#19 » by Odinn21 » Mon May 17, 2021 3:24 am

homecourtloss wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:#5. 1984 Adrian Darnley - Don’t like the defense, and his ultra efficient offense didn’t lead to good team offense.

Leading a good team offense is about roster structure. This is like criticizing Curry for not leading a good team offense in 2021 when the #2 scoring option the team is Wiggins. Darrell Griffith was not a high impact offensive piece and John Drew was also not a high impact player and he was playing on a borrowed time. Those were the next best scorers on the team after Dantley.
Dantley's ultra efficient offense was the only reason why the team had +1.4 rORtg in a season none had +4 or higher.

Btw, I'd assume you have 2004 for Kirilenko?


Yes about AK47.

True about Curry this year, but with him on court, Warriors’ offense is equivalent to the 8th best offense in the league. Of course we don’t have that same luxury to find out what Utah’s offense was like with Dantley on court, but it seems unlikely he had this effect so this example isn’t very apt. Their offenses were really poor in some high usage years with incredible rTS% numbers.

1980: - 1.1 rORtg, 15th of 22 offenses
1981: -2.1, 18th of 23
1982: -.7, 13th of 23
1983: -3.5, 20th of 23 [missed 60 games]
1984: +1.4, 9th of 23
1985: -4.6, 21st of 23
1986: -3.0 20th if 23

offense never seemed to result in good offense and in fact even with heavy usage, Utah had bad offenses.

And how is this a reason against my argument? There was almost little to no changes in the team's offensive structure. Maybe you should recognize that the Jazz were constantly in a position like 2009 Heat or 2021 Warriors. Great offensive centrepiece with insufficient complementary pieces.

He also was injured 3 different times in 1985. He missed 27 games and could not get into rhythm. It was not like he missed those all games at once and rolled out for the rest of the season. 1985 for Dantley was very much like 2008 for Wade.
I'll give you 1986 for Dantley's impact being not so great. Looking at the team's trend from 1980 to 1985, while injuries in mind, what does that tell you? Especially 1983, 1984 and 1985.
And I did not get into Dantley's positive impact on offense in Detroit when the Pistons maintained their offensive quality while they started to play hard defense and Dantley's offense made them improve on overall from before.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Jazz 

Post#20 » by falcolombardi » Mon May 17, 2021 6:48 am

dantley scoring volume + efficiency is unreal so how come the offensive results were so mediocre?

was it bad spacing?, bad offensive teammates?, bad passer?

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