[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 18, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Kings franchise history.

As Sacramento Kings from 1985-86 to today
As Kansas City Kings from 1975-76 to 1984-85
As Kansas City-Omaha Kings from 1972-73 to 1974-75
As Cincinnati Royals from 1957-58 to 1971-72
As Rochester Royals from 1949-50 to 1956-57


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Oklahoma City Thunder
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#2 » by Narigo » Tue May 18, 2021 3:30 pm

My top 5 will probably be Robertson, Archibald, Webber, Cousins and Lucas.

Stokes, Peja, Richmond, and Twyman has a case too
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#3 » by sansterre » Tue May 18, 2021 3:37 pm

#1. 1964 Oscar Robertson - that Oscar is the #1 player here should be a given.

#2. 1973 Tiny Archibald - I'm pretty low on Tiny as a career, but there's no denying that his peak was insane. In 1973 he took about 31% of his team's shots and made them at +5.7%, with an assist% approaching 40%. If you're looking for modern players who have done something like that your options are LeBron and Harden and that's it. And may I mention that Tiny played 3500 minutes that year? Yeah, his team only won 36 games but his teammates were extremely weak. It's such a historical outlier that it deserves a fair amount of respect.

#3. 2000 Chris Webber - I've always loved Webber as an all-around skilled big man, and 2000 is the year where he posted a +6.9 OBPM in the playoffs. 10.7 Win Shares and 5.6 VORP make for a pretty strong season, but there's clearly a massive drop from #1 to #2, and #2 to #3 on this list.

#4. 2004 Brad Miller - Whaaaaaat? Seriously Miller posted a 10.0 Win Share season here with a +3.4 VORP. And from '04 to '08 he never went below a +4.5 AuRPM (posting a +5.4 in 2004), suggesting that he was making massive contributions outside the box score. I'm not super-thrilled with his entry, but that five-year stretch is pretty impressive (making his 2004 seem like less of an outlier) and his competition isn't great.

#5. 1952 Bobby Wanzer - Speaking of Whaaaaaat? This is back when Rochester was routinely good (early 50s really) and boasted one of the best offenses in the league despite having no obvious stars (they ran an equal-opportunity pass-heavy system. Red Holzman was one of the players, and went on to deploy just such a system in New York, to similar effect). Wanzer didn't take more than 20% of the team's shots (characteristic of the team's ball-movement system) but he shot at +10.3%. In Rochester's first round sweep of the Pistons he shot +23.4% and against the top defense in the league (Mikan's Lakers) he still shot +6.1%. Is it arbitrary to put a guy from the 50s in here purely because he shot at +14% over six playoff games? Yeah. But I don't super-like any of the other players; there are others who have a good argument against him in the regular season but nobody that translated well to the playoffs. This is probably because I have a soft spot for the early-50s Rochester teams, but there are dumber reasons to make a pick.

First Out: 1997 Mitch Richmond

Cousins didn't get considered because his minutes were so damned low (and he has no good playoffs to give him a boost), Lucas didn't even break 10 Win Shares (which is often a requirement for me to consider pre-VORP players) and Stojakovic, despite having a fantastic season in 2004, imploded in the playoffs, dropping to a mere +1.3 OBPM.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#4 » by Colbinii » Tue May 18, 2021 3:57 pm

1. 1964 Oscar Robertson

Not much discussion to be had here. All-time great player at his peak.

2. 1973 Tiny Archibald

Led the # 1 offense in the league without a lot of help. Carried a tremendous usage rate, Russell Westbrook like in terms of usage but he actually led a great offense.

3. 2002 Chris Webber
4. 2003 Peja Stojakovic



Here we are. Some On-Court rating plus On/Off numbers to start, 2001-2004 while on Sacramento.

C Webb +6.9/+1.2
Vlade +8.0/+3.6
Peja +6.9/+2.0
Christie +7.8/+4.0
Bibby +7.2/+1.0

It's clear when watching these Kings teams and what this data points to is Vlade and Christie were the teams most important players but not necessarily the best players. Christie was insurmountable as the teams primarily and often only capable wing defender. Vlade was the teams best interior defender by a large margin and both Christie and Vlade provided important playmaking duties.

Peja and Bibby provided much needed spacing with all the playmakers on the squad but weren't consistent year to year in the post-season.

Chris Webber was the best player in a vacuum but injuries and the mindset of "It needs to be my team" resulted in his impact being less than it should and could have been.

5. 1952 Bobby Wanzer
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#5 » by Dutchball97 » Tue May 18, 2021 4:48 pm

1. Oscar Robertson, 1963/64 - Easily the best player here. I don't think the year is much of a discussion either.

2. Chris Webber, 2001/02 - This is going to be controversial but no play-offs means no Tiny. I don't think his regular season alone was good enough to say he had a better season overall than a bunch of guys who had good regular seasons and good play-off performances. Webber was clearly the best of the bunch among these players though.

3. Peja Stojakovic, 2002/03 - Not everyone rates him as highly and I understand the reservations because of a disappointing post-season in 2004 but his 2003 season was a great all round season.

4. Bobby Wanzer, 1951/52 - I wasn't sure I'd go with any of the 50s guys but here we are. Even though the level of competition wasn't great, he was still elite throughout the entire season. It feels a bit odd to have him above Tiny or even some guys like Jerry Lucas and Mitch Richmond but all of them either only had seasons without play-offs or lackluster performances when they did make it.

5. Tiny Archibald, 1972/73 - Didn't plan on including a season without play-offs but as I was deciding between Brad Miller and Otis Birdsong for the last spot I thought **** it. Might change it to someone else later if anything pops up but doubt it'd make much of a difference anyway.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#6 » by LA Bird » Tue May 18, 2021 6:22 pm

Not too familiar with the era but I think Bob Davies should probably go above Bobby Wanzer. The Rochester Royals were a +6 championship / finals team for three straight seasons in the NBL before Wanzer and Davies was more highly regarded in the NBA when looking at All League voting at the time. Wanzer does have one outlier year with a crazy TS% but Davies with his ball handling and passing was likely still the more valuable offensive anchor for the team.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#7 » by sansterre » Tue May 18, 2021 6:32 pm

LA Bird wrote:Not too familiar with the era but I think Bob Davies should probably go above Bobby Wanzer. The Rochester Royals were a +6 championship / finals team for three straight seasons in the NBL before Wanzer and Davies was more highly regarded in the NBA when looking at All League voting at the time. Wanzer does have one outlier year with a crazy TS% but Davies with his ball handling and passing was likely still the more valuable offensive anchor for the team.

I'll absolutely grant that Wanzer's 1952 was an outlier year. But this exercise is about the best single year. And Davies, while very good, never posted anything close to a +10% shooting year, even if he tended to shoot at higher volumes (25% or thereabouts).

Obviously for all I know Wanzer was incredibly turnover-prone, or maybe Davies was a monster defender. No idea. But the data available makes Wanzer's outlier year merit serious consideration in this company.

Also, league voting at the time didn't have a particularly sophisticated grasp of efficiency. Davies scored more total points and Wanzer didn't shoot a ton better from the field; the major difference was that Wanzer got to the line better and shot 90%+ from the charity stripe. The only way to make an argument for Wanzer over Davies in '52 is to rely on TS% or more sophisticated stats and those didn't really exist at the time.

tldr: if you want to make an argument that career-wise Davies was the more valuable player overall to Rochester, that's legit. But it's a tough argument to say that Davies' best year was better than Wanzer's '52, outlier though it was.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#8 » by Owly » Tue May 18, 2021 6:44 pm

LA Bird wrote:Not too familiar with the era but I think Bob Davies should probably go above Bobby Wanzer. The Rochester Royals were a +6 championship / finals team for three straight seasons in the NBL before Wanzer and Davies was more highly regarded in the NBA when looking at All League voting at the time. Wanzer does have one outlier year with a crazy TS% but Davies with his ball handling and passing was likely still the more valuable offensive anchor for the team.

The some of the reasoning here regarding multiple years and NBL years seems to pertain more to a greatest career case than a greatest peak project which excludes NBL years.

Not that I don't like Davies getting a mention.

(fwiw, Wanzer has a somewhat recognized 1953 MVP re accolades).
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#9 » by Odinn21 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:57 pm

1. 1964 Oscar Robertson
One of the most obvious choice there ever was.

2. 2001 Chris Webber
3. 2004 Predrag Stojakovic

I'm quite certain these 2 being the next ones on the list. Looking at the shift within the team from 2000 to 2004, this is the conclusion I've come.

First, I'd like to remind that Webber missed more than one third of the season, 28 games to be precise, in 2002. That is a very important aspect.
Now, I know that Webber shot insanely bad against the Suns in 2001 playoffs. But in PI-RAPM charts, 2001 Webber is the only version that broke into the top 14% between him and Stojakovic from 2000 to 2004. Not only he broke into the top 14%, he was in the top 5%. The gap is quite meaningful.
He was the centrepiece of 2001 Kings team, he was their top performing player and he was also quite impactful unlike the other available options.
That's why I have Webber over Stojakovic. And I see a certain drop after Peja.

4. 1997 Mitch Richmond
An elite player with good numbers and decent impact. Despite team missing the playoffs, he was by far the most impacful player on that team and was in the top 11% in PI-RAPM and PIPM. That's a significant mark for a player on a non-playoff team.

5. 2006 Brad Miller
This was the season all came together for him. He was his team's one of 2 top performers along with Bibby. He was definitely the most impactful player on that team. He had a good combination of two way play. I believe he had some injury issues going into the playoffs but I'm way harsher on missing 20+ games in a season which happened in 2005. That's why, along with impact numbers, I went with 2006 over 2005.

HM: 1966 Jerry Lucas

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Nate Archibald is the only player in pro basketball history that makes me go directly against box numbers. He was one of the biggest defensive liabilities I've ever witnessed. He gave up on defense way more than he brought on offense. He puts J. Lucas to shame in this regard. I mean I can not stress enough how big of a gap there was between his offense and his defense. He should be knocked down for his defense instead of "he led #1 ORtg team".
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#10 » by TroubleS0me » Wed May 19, 2021 12:31 am

Honorable mentions :
DeMarcus Cousins (16-17)
DeAaron Fox(20-21)
Isaiah Thomas ? (13-14)
Mike Bibby (2002)
Ron Artest & Kevin Martin (2008) ?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#11 » by Dr Positivity » Wed May 19, 2021 2:26 am

Webber has questionable impact measures. He has mediocre and RAPM +/- numbers and after he goes down to injury the Kings are fantastic in 2004. Not only do they have 55 W season but that's with going 11-12 with Webber. The Kings have a fantastic ensemble cast. Webber passing was important to them but his scoring may have been pretty useless.

1. Oscar Robertson 1964

2. Bob Davies 1951
3. Bobby Wanzer 1952

Since I'm not that inspired by the other choices I'm just going to give to two players who were elite in a worse era. Davies was rated higher in his time and I like that he's so fast and presumably putting pressure on the defense, but Wanzer had elite efficiency his era.

4. Tiny Archibald 1973 - Weak team but plays out of his mind. 3rd MVP.

5. Chris Webber 2001 - Leader of elite team. Plays more games than 2002.

HM: Jerry Lucas, Mitch Richmond, Peja Stojakovic
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#12 » by homecourtloss » Wed May 19, 2021 2:56 am

1. 1964 Oscar Robertson
Peak of one of the greatest players ever. Highest TS added of his many GOATy TS added years.

2. 1973 Tiny Achibald.
Yes, didn’t make the playoffs, but monster usage led to best offense

3. 2003 Doug Christie
Peak RAPM monster Christie. Liked 2002 playoffs better but 2003 was Christie at his most impactful.

4. 2000 CWebb
Webber at his best in the 2000 playoffs. I liked 2002 Webber as his most impactful version but he missed too many games.

5. 2004 Brad Miller.
Miller was a high impact player much to many people’s surprise.

HM: 58 Stokes, 52 Wanzer, 1995 Richmond (in the data that we have, the terrible Kings were always so much better with Richmond on court)
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#13 » by prolific passer » Wed May 19, 2021 3:21 am

60-61 Oscar. First triple double in nba history.
72-73 Tiny. Only player to lead the league in both scoring and assists in the same season. Too bad the team was bad.
99 Webber. Really the start of the Kings run and he was led the league in rebounding. First guy to lead the league in rebounding outside of Rodman since D-Rob in 91.
4. 68-69 Lucas. 18 18 4apg on 55% fg%
5. 50-51 Arnie Risen. Beat Mikan on his way to the only title in Kings history.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#14 » by falcolombardi » Wed May 19, 2021 3:34 am

just curious but if a team is already elininated from playoffs by the time the franchise comes can his 2021 season be included?

like if wizards go out against pacers or sixers before washington turn, can bradley beal season be included?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#15 » by Odinn21 » Wed May 19, 2021 3:48 am

falcolombardi wrote:just curious but if a team is already elininated from playoffs by the time the franchise comes can his 2021 season be included?

like if wizards go out against pacers or sixers before washington turn, can bradley beal season be included?

No inclusion of 2020-21 in any way. Any inclusion (or exclusion for that matter) midway through the project will cause inconsistencies.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#16 » by 70sFan » Wed May 19, 2021 6:42 am

1. 1963/64 Oscar Robertson - the easiest choice possible

2. 1972/73 Nate Archibald - not 100% on his impact, because I haven't seen any of his game from that season but he put up monstrous stats on good offensive team. I like what I've seen from Kings games I saw from 1975, he was agressive slasher who put up a lot of pressure on defense.

3. 1951/52 Bobby Wanzer - this might be controversial choice, but he had amazing scoring season for a 1950s guard. Along with Bob Davies he anchored the best offense in the league (one of the best ever in the first 20 years of the NBA).

4. 2000/01 Chris Webber - to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Webber. To me he was always lesser than the sum of parts - excellent passer, decent shooter, solid defender and yet he never reached potential he had. Can't leave him out of top 5 though.

5. 1958/59 Maurice Stokes - he had massive defensive impact, probably the best defensive player before Russell came into the league. Royals went from elite defensive team in 1956-59 to the worst in the league without him in 1960. I know, his scoring sucked but I don't think anyone else had comparable impact on overall team success.

HM: 1953 Davies, 1960 Twyman, 1997 Richmond, 2003 Peja and 2006 Miller
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#17 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed May 19, 2021 10:22 am

1) 1964 Oscar Robertson - GOAT point guard peak.

2) 1958 Maurice Stokes - 10 years ago, this would have been a player who was killed by the "time travel" argument. But now when we do it, you know what I see? Draymond Green. Like, the resemblance is actually a bit uncanny. Heavy set, long arm, 6'7 power forwards who can run the fast break, active passers and absolutely oppressive defenders. Stokes was not just a decade ahead of his time, he was a life time ahead. The impact was felt as soon as he retired due to illness prematurely. Royals were the worst defense before he came, worse defense when he retired, and the 3 years he played they were #1 or #2 out of 8. I think he is more impactful than any other King by a good amount. Of course lack of data does make this an educated guess, but no one else on the Kings was a dominant player other than Oscar Robertson. My top 2 I am very confident in (really going out on a limb with Oscar at #1, I know).

3) 2003 Peja Stojakovic - Peja's shooting ability brings a lot of gravitas and flexibility. I felt that his style is really what made the King's go during their last era of relevance. He doesn't really have a dominant post season scoring run, but he still is a legit #2 on a championship team.

4) 2003 Doug Christie - I think some people retroactively look at Christie as a 3 and D guy when he was more than that. He was pretty good at creating his own shot, and he was a super slick passer. He's one of the best perimeter defenders of all time at his peak, and he was well tested in an era that had a lot of great scoring wings. I like his defense more than Webber despite not being a big, and I think he is more versatile than Bob Davies who is my next perimeter guy.

5) 2002 Vlade Divac - When I think of Webber I think of big man defense and passing. Vlade kind of does those things better? I mean the APG underrates Divac's passing ability, he's not a high usage player. Impact stats usually favor Vlade. I'm not really sure if Webber's volume scoring is worth much - he was always very easy to shut down.


Bob Davies - He was on many successful and competitive teams. He also played in more of an ensemble casts, and he did his job as the floor general very well. He orchestrated very balanced attacks for the 1950s Royals.

Chris Webber - Feels weird rating 3 of his teammates over him, but I'm just not sure how impactful he was. Seems like a guy who benefited a lot from a less objective era - people liked his style so much more than its effectiveness.

Tiny Archibald - I get Isaiah Thomas vibes from him.

Bobby Wanzer - Interesting pick, but I think Davies made those teams go. Not big on outlier years.

Mitch Richmond - Not spectacular enough at any one aspect of the game.

Jerry Lucas - Crappy defender. Not good enough on offense to make up for it.

Brad Miller - I don't know much about him.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#18 » by Odinn21 » Wed May 19, 2021 7:35 pm

Just a quick announcement. I have a meeting that can not be moved tomorrow. I will announce the results of this one and will start the next thread 1 hour before our usual timeline. If there'll be a new vote for this one in that 1 hour, I'll update the results accordingly. Cheers all.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#19 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 20, 2021 3:14 am

sansterre wrote:#3. 2000 Chris Webber - I've always loved Webber as an all-around skilled big man, and 2000 is the year where he posted a +6.9 OBPM in the playoffs. 10.7 Win Shares and 5.6 VORP make for a pretty strong season, but there's clearly a massive drop from #1 to #2, and #2 to #3 on this list.

#4. 2004 Brad Miller - Whaaaaaat? Seriously Miller posted a 10.0 Win Share season here with a +3.4 VORP. And from '04 to '08 he never went below a +4.5 AuRPM (posting a +5.4 in 2004), suggesting that he was making massive contributions outside the box score. I'm not super-thrilled with his entry, but that five-year stretch is pretty impressive (making his 2004 seem like less of an outlier) and his competition isn't great.


I'm really glad you included Miller because I'm debating that myself. Here's the thing:

Miller's achievement that year is presumably lessoned because he was a mere bench player in the playoffs.

Of course, the team still did great when he was out there. The problem was what happened when he wasn't out there. Let's see, who replaced him in the starting lineup? Chris Webber, who never in his entire time with the Kings had as good of a raw +/- as Miller had that year.

I think people honestly need to ask themselves if Webber was a more effective player in any year than Miller was that year. And I'll note that Miller is one of these players who just finds a lot of impact out there, and demonstrated consistent trend toward this on other teams.

I'll note that the big 5 Kings of that era - Webber, Stojakovic, Christie, Divac & Miller - it's really only Divac and Miller who showed that kind of destined-for-impact play.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Kings 

Post#20 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 20, 2021 3:31 am

1. '63-64 Oscar Robertson - obvs. Legendary.

2. '72-73 Tiny Archibald - My opinion on Tiny has fluctuated wildly over the year, but I see enough I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

3. '50-51 Arnie Risen - looking back on this season from posterity, it was a dream season

4. '48-49 Bob Davies - I've gone back and forth between Risen, Davies & Bobby Wanzer. Davies was the most celebrated, and I think there's good reason to think in general he was the most impactful player of the trio despite Wanzer clearly being the stronger scorer. Only reason I have Risen ahead is because I think it just all came together for him at the right time.

5. '01-02 Vlade Divac - the golden age of the Sacramento era, and they only get one guy? Well, if I go to top 10, good chance that team makes half the list, but it was an ensemble cast. Who was the player in general that I think knew how to make that ensemble work? Not Chris Webber. I think it's either Divac or Brad Miller, but the fact that Miller was treated as a bench player in his candidate year makes me feel like I've got to go Vlade.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.

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