RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 (Bill Walton)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 (Bill Walton) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Wed May 19, 2021 3:11 am

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. Isiah Thomas
44. Russell Westbrook
45. Willis Reed
46. Chauncey Billups
47. Paul Pierce
48. Gary Payton
49. Pau Gasol
50. Ray Allen
51. Dwight Howard
52. Kevin McHale
53. Manu Ginobili
54. Dave Cowens
55. Adrian Dantley
56. Sam Jones
57. Bob Lanier
58. Dikembe Mutombo
59. Elvin Hayes
60. Paul Arizin
61. Anthony Davis
62. Robert Parish
63. Bob Cousy
64. Alonzo Mourning
65. Nate Thurmond
66. Allen Iverson
67. Tracy McGrady
68. Alex English
69. Vince Carter
70. Wes Unseld
71. Tony Parker
72. Rasheed Wallace
73. Dominique Wilkins
74. Giannis Antetokounmpo
75. Kevin Johnson
76. Bobby Jones
77. Bob McAdoo
78. Shawn Marion
79. Dennis Rodman
80. Larry Nance
81. Ben Wallace
82. Hal Greer
83. Grant Hill
84. Sidney Moncrief
85. Damian Lillard
86. Chris Bosh
87. Horace Grant
88. Jeff Hornacek
89. Billy Cunningham
90. Dan Issel
91. James Worthy
92. Carmelo Anthony
93. Terry Porter
94. Cliff Hagan
95. Nikola Jokic
96. Jack Sikma
97. Gus Williams
98. Draymond Green
99. Walt Bellamy
100. ???

Target stop will by around 11pm EST on Thursday.

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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#2 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed May 19, 2021 3:17 am

Last chance to get Bill Walton in. Do it guys, do it for me.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#3 » by trex_8063 » Wed May 19, 2021 3:28 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Last chance to get Bill Walton in. Do it guys, do it for me.


Image

idk, maybe I'm the only fan of old movies who immediately thought of this.....
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Wed May 19, 2021 3:49 am

1. Bob Dandridge -- similarly, a versatile very good 3rd option who could score if needed, play good defense and swing to the 4 (Milwaukee) or 2 (Washington).

2. Chris Webber-- Hard to believe it but I'm holding my nose and voting for Chris Webber. Hated him as a supertalented but whiny player in Washington, then he went on to more success in Sacramento though continuing his history of choking in big moments. I'd love to vote for almost anyone else but he's probably the best choice left.

3. Zelmo Beaty. Two way player. Not as big and physical as the ideal centers of his era but consistently good and had a great year in the ABA after resting his problematic knees for a full year. Feel awkward putting him ahead of Mel Daniels who I thought was the better player but Beaty played longer and Daniels never played any signifcant minutes outside the ABA.


Maurice Cheeks
Dennis Johnson
Mookie Blaylock
Mark Price
Connie Hawkins
Chris Mullin -- smart pure shooter, lead footed wing defender
LaMarcus Aldridge -- long consistent career
Elton Brand -- shorter career, though it peaked higher than Aldridge, lot of bad teams around him
Marques Johnson -- peaked higher than King, shorter career, substance abuse issues
Penny Hardaway -- another strong but short peak career cut down to size by injuries
Bernard King -- a couple of great playoff performances, reasonably efficient scorer but brings little else and had substance abuse issues.
Tiny Archibald -- Amazing for a couple of years on Kings, like Isiaih Thomas that year in Boston, but with his lack of defense and the way his scoring game worked, can't really see him as a key ceiling raiser piece.
Dave DeBusschere -- excellent defender, not a long career, poor shooter relative to league
Bill Walton -- 1 and a half years is not enough
David Thompson -- Another skywalker, great scorer, but career destroyed by cocaine
Kyle Lowry -- good player but not that good
Tommy Heinsohn -- inefficient volume scorer, not impressed with his defense, not a good passer, I don't think he makes my top 8 players who played with Russell much less my top 100 (S. Jones, Havlicek, Sharman, Howell, KC Jones, Cousy, Ramsey, Sanders. . . Jim Loscutoff? Larry Siegfried?).

GUARDS
Dennis Johnson, Mookie Blaylock, Maurice Cheeks, Nate Archibald

Cheeks (low volume) and Archibald (high volume) are the only ones with significantly positive efficiency, with the other three down below league average during their 5 year primes. DJ has the big rep, both on defense and in awards, Mookie also had a great defensive rep and was ahead of his time shooting low percentage from 2 but a lot of 3's, Cheeks is another very good defender. Cheeks and Blaylock generated assists like point guards, DJ didn't. Tiny is the best floor raiser but probably the worst ceiling raiser which I tend to value more.

I rate them:
1. Cheeks -- good defense, leadership, efficient scoring though at low volume, I have to say I'd rather have him as my PG than any of the others except in unusual situations and I don't see DJ as a good enough shooting guard for his ability to guard wings to rate him higher.
2a. DJ -- tempted to go Mookie here but DJ's versatility on the defensive end (and face it, if they are getting any traction it's on their defense) give him the edge despite Mookie's playmaking and range (tempted AGAIN to switch this!)
2b. Blaylock -- spread the floor and played great defense, very modern player. Got assists but not a great creator, scored nearly as much as DJ but no more efficient despite his 3 point range.
4. Nate Archibald -- Isiaih in Boston showed you can compete with a Tiny type PG as the main man, though it's hard. He did show a willingness to sacrifice his personal game for team goals when he went to Boston and his peers rated him highly there.


WINGS
Dandridge is the most versatile of the wings, playing 4 in Milwaukee and 2 in Washington as well as the 3. He is an all-defense candidate, which none of the rest can claim while also an excellent 3rd, passible second option scorer on decent efficiency. He did whine in Milwaukee but was a class pro after that in Washington. Marques Johnson, Bernard King, and Chris Mullin all had some strong offensive years, Marques was the only one not a weak defender but also the shortest career of the 3. All efficient volume scorers, none played that long, King had some nice playoff runs. Both Marques Johnson and Bernard King had substance abuse issues and Chris Mullin had one of the ugliest haircuts ever seen outside of boot camp. Close between the 3. Connie Hawkins and David Thompson both would easily have been top 100 player but for injuries (Hawk) and drugs (skywalker).

BIG MEN

Webber or Brand. Webber and Brand decent rim protectors; Webber a good (some say great) big man passers. Efficiency, Brand was decent, Webber below average; Webber the volume scorer, then Brand. Walton just didn't have enough peak seasons.

DeBusschere had better defense than either but his shooting is just too ugly to compete at this level despite his rep.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#5 » by Odinn21 » Wed May 19, 2021 3:53 am

As this is the last spot on the list, I'll be just naming #100 and have the others on my condorcet selections.

100. Bernard King
Arguably the best peak among the big scoring wings of the '80s (Gervin, Dantley, English and Wilkins). Even after the injuries he was still a good impact ended up with nearly 20k career point.
I know my list is quite harsh on Bill Walton and Connie Hawkins who do not have much to show for outside of their top 3 or 4 seasons. But King is not like them to me. He still had major play time with good quality outside of his few peak seasons. If anything, King is like a more impactful Carmelo Anthony IMO.

S. Kemp > M Price > D. DeBusschere > B. Dandridge > C. Mullin > J. Butler > C. Webber > K. Lowry > L. Aldridge > Z. Beaty > E. Jones > E. Brand > C. Hawkins > B. Walton > A. Hardaway > N. Archibald > N. Johnston > D. Johnson > T. Heinsohn > F. Ramsey > M. Daniels

---

Changes so far compared to the previous project;

1. LeBron James (+2)
2. Michael Jordan (-1)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (-1)
4. Bill Russell (0)
5. Tim Duncan (0)
6. Wilt Chamberlain (0)
7. Magic Johnson (0)
8. Shaquille O'Neal (0)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (0)
10. Larry Bird (0)
11. Kevin Garnett (+1)
12. Kobe Bryant (-1)
13. Jerry West (+2)
14. Oscar Robertson (-1)
15. Dirk Nowitzki (+2)
16. Karl Malone (-2)
17. David Robinson (+1)
18. Julius Erving (-2)
19. George Mikan (+6)
20. Moses Malone (0)
21. Charles Barkley (-2)
22. Kevin Durant (+6)
23. Chris Paul (0)
24. Stephen Curry (+5)
25. Bob Pettit (-1)
26. John Stockton (-5)
27. Steve Nash (-1)
28. Dwyane Wade (-6)
29. Patrick Ewing (-2)
30. Walt Frazier (+8)
31. James Harden (+35)
32. Scottie Pippen (-2)
33. Elgin Baylor (-1)
34. John Havlicek (-3)
35. Rick Barry (-1)
36. Jason Kidd (+1)
37. George Gervin (+4)
38. Clyde Drexler (-5)
39. Reggie Miller (+3)
40. Artis Gilmore (-4)
41. Dolph Schayes (+4)
42. Kawhi Leonard (+54)
43. Isiah Thomas (-4)
44. Russell Westbrook (+7)
45. Willis Reed (+11)
46. Chauncey Billups (+9)
47. Paul Pierce (-4)
48. Gary Payton (-13)
49. Pau Gasol (-1)
50. Ray Allen (-3)
51. Dwight Howard (-7)
52. Kevin McHale (-12)
53. Manu Ginobili (+1)
54. Dave Cowens (+6)
55. Adrian Dantley (+4)
56. Sam Jones (+12)
57. Bob Lanier (0)
58. Dikembe Mutombo (-5)
59. Elvin Hayes (+2)
60. Paul Arizin (+11)
61. Anthony Davis (+39*; was not on the list)
62. Robert Parish (-12)
63. Bob Cousy (-17)
64. Alonzo Mourning (-12)
65. Nate Thurmond (+2)
66. Allen Iverson (-8)
67. Tracy McGrady (-2)
68. Alex English (-4)
69. Vince Carter (-6)
70. Wes Unseld (-21)
71. Tony Parker (+5)
72. Rasheed Wallace (+12)
73. Dominique Wilkins (-11)
74. Giannis Antetokounmpo (+26*; was not on the list)
75. Kevin Johnson (-6)
76. Bobby Jones (-2)
77. Bob McAdoo (-7)
78. Shawn Marion (-1)
79. Dennis Rodman (+6)
80. Larry Nance (+1)
81. Ben Wallace (-2)
82. Hal Greer (-4)
83. Grant Hill (-10)
84. Sidney Moncrief (-13)
85. Damian Lillard (+15)
86. Chris Bosh (-11)
87. Horace Grant (-1)
88. Jeff Hornacek (+12*; was not on the list)
89. Billy Cunningham (+4)
90. Dan Issel (-10)
91. James Worthy (-9)
92. Carmelo Anthony (-2)
93. Terry Porter (-5)
94. Cliff Hagan (+6*; was not on the list)
95. Nikola Jokic (+5*; was not on the list)
96. Jack Sikma (-4)
97. Gus Williams (+3*; was not on the list)
98. Draymond Green (+2*; was not on the list)
99. Walt Bellamy (+1*; was not on the list)

Top 12 biggest drops;
Wes Unseld 49 > 70 (-21)
Bob Cousy 46 > 63 (-17)
Sidney Moncrief 71 > 84 (-13)
Gary Payton 35 > 48 (-13)
Alonzo Mourning 52 > 64 (-12)
Robert Parish 50 > 62 (-12)
Kevin McHale 40 > 52 (-12)
Chris Bosh 75 > 86 (-11)
Dominique Wilkins 62 > 73 (-11)
Dan Issel 80 > 90 (-10)
Grant Hill 73 > 83 (-10)
James Worthy 82 > 91 (-9)

Top 12 biggest gains;
Kawhi Leonard 96 > 42 (+54)
Anthony Davis 100* > 61 (+39)
James Harden 66 > 31 (+35)
Giannis Antetokounmpo 100* > 74 (+26)
Damian Lillard 100* > 85 (+15)
Sam Jones 68 > 56 (+12)
Rasheed Wallace 84 > 72 (+12)
Jeff Horncak 100* > 88 (+12)
Willis Reed 56 > 45 (+11)
Paul Arizin 71 > 60 (+11)
Chauncey Billups 55 > 46 (+9)
Walt Frazier 38 > 30 (+8)
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#6 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 19, 2021 5:13 am

Vote 1 - Bernard King
Vote 2 - Chris Webber
Vote 3 - Tiny Archibald

DeBusschere > Beaty > Mullin > Jerry Lucas > Dandridge > Aldridge > Kemp > Lowry > Brand > Price > Dennis Johnson > Hawkins > Penny > Johnston > Walton > Heinsohn


At his peak, king was one of the most dynamic scorers the league had seen. He was more methodical than flashy, but he knew what he was good at and kept going to it. His turnaround jumper was so lethal that he didn't even have to look at the hoop when releasing the shot. It was all in 1 quick motion where the defender really had no chance to block it. He was also very bull-like in the open court. Not a high leaper, but extremely powerful with long strides getting to the rim.

From 79-85 he put up the following:

Regular Season
23.6 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 3.2 APG, 1.1 SPG, .3 BPG, 55.1% FG, 70.1% FT, 58.7% TS, .153 WS/48, 111 ORtg

Playoffs
30.5 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1 SPG, .3 BPG, 56.8% FG, 72% FT, 60.9% TS, .213 WS/48, 122 ORtg

His prime was obviously cut short by injuries, but he still put together 11 seasons of solid production when it was all said and done. When he tore his ACL, his career was largely thought to be over given the era he played in. He went on to make an improbable comeback which culminated with him getting back to All NBA status in 90-91 with the bullets. I've alluded to this with other players in the project, but the amount of determination it takes to come back from major injuries and still perform at a high level is really impressive.

[As an aside, the Knicks stupidly released him because he wanted to do his rehab on his own instead of at the knicks training facility. Always would've loved to see even a lesser version of King get to play with Ewing. Could've been a great match.]

He was probably best known for his 1st round game 5 clincher against the pistons in 84:

In a critical and decisive Game 5, Bernard King was his usual unstoppable self putting up 40 points as the Knicks held a double-digit lead with under two minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. Then Thomas decided to take things into his own hands by putting on a performance of epic proportions, tallying 16 points within the game’s final 94 seconds, to force overtime. King and Thomas exchanged offensive blows like a heavyweight title fight, with King getting the final blow by jamming an offensive put-back in the games final moments, giving him a game high 46 points and the Knicks a 3-2 series win. King showed a national audience that he would become one of the game’s most prolific scoring machines before injuries robbed him of his explosiveness. Game 5 was also arguably the moment that put a young “Zeke” on par with the NBA’s elite.



http://www.theshadowleague.com/articles/the-epic-battle-of-bernard-king-vs-isiah-thomas

Notice the splints on both of King's hands...



The Knicks would go on to lose to the eventual NBA champion celtics in 7 games, as he played through injuries and still averaged 29.1 PPG on 59.7% TS in the series. The guy was just relentless.

"The key was his preparation," said former Knicks coach and ESPN analyst Hubie Brown.

Part of that preparation included practicing thousands of shots from what King called his "sweet spots." In the half court, he identified three points along the baseline out to the sideline, then extended an imaginary line from a halfway point up the lane to the sideline with three more, then three more extended from the foul line to the sideline. He did the same on the other side of the lane.

Within the lane he identified four spots from the rim to the top of the key. These 22 spots, all within 18 feet of the basket, created a matrix of areas from which he felt supremely confident he could score. If a team tried to deny him the ball on offense, he would move from one sweet spot to another.

"He had the ability to see what all five positions were doing. That's how he could handle double- and triple-teams, because he knew where everyone would be," Brown said. "He knew how to create space for the high-percentage shot or find the guy who was open."


http://espn.go.com/nba/halloffame13/story/_/id/9653879/bernard-king-ahead
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#7 » by Dutchball97 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:26 am

1. Anfernee Hardaway - Penny has a pretty short prime but it's more of a Grant Hill case where they still have high level seasons after their major injuries instead of a Bill Walton or Connie Hawkins who really fell off quick. Penny's peak in 1996 overall was very strong and despite losing to the Heat in the first round the next year, he was clearly the best player in that series. He also pretty much always showed up in the play-offs. When he was 30 he was pretty much done though and was an average player at best in the regular season but even then he showed up strong in the 03 and 04 play-offs when he was 31 and 32 respectively. He's a fringe top 100 guy who will likely just miss the cut due to questionable longevity but I think it's nevertheless worth it to give him his due here.

2. Jimmy Butler - Butler already has a pretty impressive career. 6 seasons of a very solid prime and a pretty strong peak in 2017. I expect Butler to be a no brainer for the 2023 list as his current season might just be his best yet. Butler has also had 3 strong play-off runs. The first in 2015 with the Bulls and then the last two years with the 76ers and the Heat respectively. Butler's leadership and effort also isn't something to discount.

3. Zelmo Beaty - I didn't quite expect him to make my ballot this project but with the 90s seeing a lot of the guys I had towards the top of my list finally breaching the list Beaty moves up to #3 now. Looking at his NBA career only this is already looking pretty impressive. Beaty wasn't a world beater in the NBA but he was good and pretty consistently so. I noted earlier how LMA didn't once break .100 WS/48 in the play-offs in his stint with the Blazers but we see Beaty here never drop below .100 WS/48 in the post-season in his NBA career (or entire career for that matter). Then we can add a couple of pretty great peak years in the ABA on top of that. Especially the 70/71 season was incredibly impressive, being the clear best player in the regular season and then leading his team to a ring with a dominant performance. It's hard to rate the early 70s ABA. We know it's already tougher than when Hawkins came in and dominated in the late 60s but not yet as competitive as it was in the mid 70s when Dr J was putting in work. I'd be pretty comfortable assuming the 71 season to be somewhere in the middle but if anyone is convinced the ABA didn't significantly improve much untill about the 73 season I'd be open to arguments as I'm not much of an ABA expert.

Paul George > Kyle Lowry > Marques Johnson > Jerry Lucas > Neil Johnston > Chris Webber > Bill Sharman > Bob Dandridge > Maurice Cheeks > Frank Ramsey > Elton Brand > Chris Mullin > Andrei Kirilenko > Eddie Jones > LaMarcus Aldridge > Bernard King > Bill Walton > Connie Hawkins > Dennis Johnson > Tom Heinsohn > Dave DeBusschere > Tiny Archibald
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#8 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed May 19, 2021 10:28 am

Criteria

Spoiler:
I'm a pretty big peak guy, I'm not that interested in value of total seasons. The value of multiple seasons to me is to give me a greater sample size to understanding how good they were on the court, not necessarily the totality of their impact through out the years.

I also value impact over all else, and I define impact as the ability to help a team win games. Boxscore stats, team accolades and individual accolades (unless I agree with them personally) have very little baring on my voting so some names will look a bit wonky. The reason why I ignore accolades and winningness is because basketball is a team game and the players are largely not in control of the quality of their teammates or the health of their team (or their own personal health in key moments), thus I don't see the value of rating players based on xx has this many MVPs versus this guy has this many rings. In addition, I simply find this type of analysis boring because it's quite easy to simply look at who has a bigger laundry list of accomplishments.



1) Bill Walton. He is the best player by far here. He was probably a top 3 player in the world during his last couple years in college as well, though I believe this is NBA only. I am quite certain that Bill Walton is a top 20 peak ever. He is a top ten defensive anchor which alone adds more value than anyone left, and his offensive passing can generate very efficient offenses without him needing to score.

2) Elton Brand. Brand was a consistent 20/10 guy for 8 seasons with decent passing and legit shot creation. He was also a good defender, perhaps not as good as his shot blocks suggest - and likely over shadowed cause his prime coincided with some freak defenders at PF like Garnett, Duncan and to a lesser extend Rasheed Wallace. However, for the longevity heads who like to add the value of players careers, I feel like 8 seasons of 20/10/2.5/2 is pretty damn hard to beat at this point. Not to mention the guy had a great peak, maybe not Bill Walton good but he was a 25 PPG and 2.5 BPG player at his peak, this is at a time when scoring wasn't easy either. He only has a sample size of one playoff run in his prime, and in that run he nearly made the Western Conference finals and he was incredible in both series against Denver and Phoenix.

3) Mark Price. I chose Mark Price over my #4 (Mullin) because I think he offers a lot of offensive utility. He's good at creating his own shot, making plays for others, slowing down the pace, pick and roll, long range bombs. He doesn't have the defensive issues that Chris Mullin has either. He has 5-6 good reasonably healthy prime seasons, as well as some seasons as a useful roleplayer whos impact was probably better than his boxscore stats.




Names in bold are new additions to my list.



Mullin > Butler > P Hardaway > Beaty > Hawkins > King > Kemp > Webber > Dennis Johnson > Ramsey > E Jones > Lowry > Sikma > Archibald > Aldridge > Lucas > Heinsohn > Johnston > DeBusschere > Dandridge
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#9 » by DCasey91 » Wed May 19, 2021 12:07 pm

1. Bill Walton - What has been said has been said. Even saying Bill Walton at #100 is in my eyes disrespectful to what he actually accomplished. A Number 1# player on a championship winning team, such a huge peak because he was that good. He far outranks guys put in front of him. Sports in general don’t do that not matter how long or short.
A MVP, Finals MVP first and only championship for the Blazers in over 50 years! This isn’t theory this is all true. Sports rewards individuals for what they actually achieved and he achieved the highest individual and team honor there is. That is what you play for. Teams and Clubs can go for decades without finding a player to win it all with. That’s him it happened. I mean there is players ranked at 60 or lower who aren’t even in their prime yet.
Could name individuals for basically any sport that had their career cut short but was ranked accordingly. You know if they had DPOY awards he most likely would have had the sweep and the chip.

Paul Morphy? Greame Pollock? Bo Jackson? I rest my damn case. For those who don’t know who Greame Pollock is, it doesn’t matter what matters is everybody at the time knew how great he was, short international career but that wasn’t his fault. What he did do though was ATG. Bill Walton? pretty sure he had one heck of a peak. Because he was that great

2. Draymond Green - Integral part of the best modern team so far. Great argument for the best defender this past decade. Game 7 was a treat. RS season maybe pedestrian but his Playoff impact is very impressive.

3. Tom Heisohn - A consistent 20/9 All Star for the all conquering Celtics. Then goes and coaches two more wins and COY. Mr. Celtic, lucky charm? Who knows but he’s involved somehow in basically all of the Celtics Wins/Finals in history. Won ROY over Bill.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#10 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed May 19, 2021 12:09 pm

DCasey91 wrote:1. Bill Walton - What has been said has been said. Even saying Bill Walton at #100 is in my eyes disrespectful to what he actually accomplished. A Number one player on a championship winning team, such a huge peak because he was that good. He far outranks guys put in front of him. Sports in general don’t do that not matter how long or short.
A MVP, Finals MVP first and only championship for the Blazers in over 50 years! This isn’t theory this is all true. Sports rewards individuals for what they actually achieved and he achieved the highest individual and team honor there is. That is what you play for. Teams and Clubs can go for decades without finding a player to win it all with. That’s him it happened. I mean there is players ranked at 60 or lower who aren’t even in their prime yet.

2. Draymond Green - Integral part of the best modern team so far. Great argument for the best defender this past decade. Game 7 was a treat. RS season maybe pedestrian but his Playoff impact is very impressive.

3. Tom Heisohn - A consistent 20/9 All Star for the all conquering Celtics. Then goes and coaches two more wins and COY. Mr. Celtic, lucky charm? Who knows but he’s involved somehow in basically all of the Celtics Wins/Finals in history. Won ROY over Bill.

Draymond Green is already on the list.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#11 » by DCasey91 » Wed May 19, 2021 12:17 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:1. Bill Walton - What has been said has been said. Even saying Bill Walton at #100 is in my eyes disrespectful to what he actually accomplished. A Number one player on a championship winning team, such a huge peak because he was that good. He far outranks guys put in front of him. Sports in general don’t do that not matter how long or short.
A MVP, Finals MVP first and only championship for the Blazers in over 50 years! This isn’t theory this is all true. Sports rewards individuals for what they actually achieved and he achieved the highest individual and team honor there is. That is what you play for. Teams and Clubs can go for decades without finding a player to win it all with. That’s him it happened. I mean there is players ranked at 60 or lower who aren’t even in their prime yet.

2. Draymond Green - Integral part of the best modern team so far. Great argument for the best defender this past decade. Game 7 was a treat. RS season maybe pedestrian but his Playoff impact is very impressive.

3. Tom Heisohn - A consistent 20/9 All Star for the all conquering Celtics. Then goes and coaches two more wins and COY. Mr. Celtic, lucky charm? Who knows but he’s involved somehow in basically all of the Celtics Wins/Finals in history. Won ROY over Bill.

Draymond Green is already on the list.


I’ll move up Heisohn then Debusschere after that.

But Bill 1 for me.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#12 » by Hal14 » Wed May 19, 2021 1:34 pm

Hal14 wrote:1. Dennis Johnson
2. Tiny Archibald
3. Dave Debusschere

Johnson was Finals MVP in 79. The dude was an animal. Flying around the court like a bat outta hell, some of the best defense a guard has ever played. Going all out, hustling, taking it strong to the rim.

Next, let's look at 84. 83-84 was his first year on the Celtics. The year before that in 83 the Celtics got swept in the 2nd round by the Bucks. Yes, KC Jones taking over as coach was a factor as well, but the Celtics adding Johnson was a HUGE reason why they went from being swept in the 2nd round in 83 to NBA world champs beating the Lakers in the finals the very next year in 84 (with Magic and Kareem in their prime).

In both 84 and 86 Johnson was one of the team's top 4 players, came through in the clutch time and time again and Bird is on record saying that Johnson was the best teammate he ever played with (meaning Bird thinks Johnson was better than Parish and Mchale).

https://www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-reveals-the-best-player-hes-ever-played-with/

Johnson was one of the best defensive guards of all time, easily one of the top 10 defensive guards ever. The guy had very good size and strength at the PG position which made him a tough matchup, early in his career had great explosiveness and athleticism, he could score inside, drive to the basket and as his career went on developed a deadly outside shot - especially in the mid range area, not as much from 3 because at the time 3's weren't being taken very much across the league (early in his career there was no 3 point line), plus he could rebound well, unselfishly looked to get the ball to his teammates but would make you pay dearly if you ignored him too much on offense, plus of course his outstanding defense.

Solid longevity, played 14 seasons (13 of which he played 27+ mins a game and all of them he played in 70+ games) which was solid for that era, especially considering he played in a ton (180 to be exact) of playoff games.

How about durability? The guy always played, he was always in the lineup. Out of his 14 seasons:
-he played 72+ games in 14/14 (100%)
-he played in 77+ games in 12/14 seasons (86%)
-he played in 80+ games in 7/14 seasons (50%)

How about Rasheed's durability?
-he played 72+ games in 14/16 (63%)
-he played in 77+ games in 8/16 seasons (50%)
-he played in 80+ games in 10/16 seasons (13%)

Here's a glimpse into how good Johnson was on defense:


Johnson was as good defensively as any guard to ever play. Only guards I might put over him on D are Jordan, Payton and maybe Frazier.

How clutch was Johnson? Take a look at this huge shot to beat the Lakers in the finals:


Want more clutch plays? Larry Bird made a great steal, but it wouldn't have mattered, the Celtics would have still lost that game (and the series) if Johnson didn't race in towards the basket, catch the ball in traffic and finish over a defender:


Johnson blocked 7 shots in a single NBA finals game (1978)

Johnson won NBA finals MVP (1979)

Johnson hit the first game winning 3-pointer in NBA playoff history (1980)



Celtics got swept in the 2nd round by the Bucks. Then they add DJ to the team and beat the Lakers (with prime Magic and prime Kareem) in the NBA finals in 1984.

If you want a guys who put up some nice advanced stats in an era where advanced stats didn't even exist yet, sure go ahead and vote for Hornacek. But if you want to win, then DJ is your guy.

Dennis Johnson is considered by many to be one of the most underrated players of all time:



https://aminoapps.com/c/hoops/page/blog/most-underrated-nba-player-of-all-time-dennis-johnson/pXNH_Qun5plrpdaKeJJ7JElNaBb8Qez#:~:text=Johnson%20(R.I.P.)%20is%20NBA's%20all,the%20most%20underrated%20player%20ever.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/3584-the-most-underrated-players-in-nba-history

https://www.celticsblog.com/2014/10/20/7012785/celtic-great-dennis-johnson-clutch-underrated

http://loganssportsratings.blogspot.com/2016/08/top-100-nba-players-45-dennis-johnson.html

Tiny is a 6 time all-star, 3x all NBA 1st team, 2x all NBA 2nd team. You want peak? Only player ever to lead the NBA in both scoring and assists in the same season. And he was a key piece on the 1981 NBA championship-winning Celtics. Solid defender. Very few point guards in the history of the game possessed his combination of scoring and distributing. And he did it in an era before it was easier for point guards to dominate the league (like it's been since 2005). He'd be even higher up this list if not for injuries, but still had 13 seasons which is pretty good longevity, especially for that era.
1/11/24 The birth of a new Hal. From now on being less combative, avoiding confrontation - like Switzerland :)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#13 » by prolific passer » Wed May 19, 2021 7:25 pm

Bill Walton is a mystery. Mostly injured but when he did play he was nearly unstoppable due to his skill set.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#14 » by ZeppelinPage » Wed May 19, 2021 11:36 pm

1. Tom Heinsohn
Heinsohn was an incredibly talented, well-rounded player. He joined Holy Cross in '54 and they immediately jumped in points scored and allowed while going 26-2. By his senior year, Holy Cross ranked 33rd in offense and 23rd on defense nationally. When Heinsohn left, they fell to 153rd of 160 teams in points allowed with an 11-12 record.

The '56 Celtics were a middle of the pack team that struggled to play defense and rebound. Auerbach was a tough coach that got the most out of his players (he helped turn Cousy into a good defender), but his team had never obtained the consistent rebounder vitally needed for the era. At one point, Bob Cousy mentioned how badly the Celtics needed a rebounder to give the rest of the players a break, as they were busy trying to gather rebounds together, with Ed Macauley unable to control the boards himself--this tired them out during playoff time. Enter Heinsohn: a switchable shooter with offensive and defensive skills while being, most importantly, a relentless rebounder.

With Auerbach's coaching, Heinsohn was quick to learn the energy needed at the professional level. Before the season, Auerbach mentioned that Heinsohn had been watching Cousy "break his neck" on defense, and that this would help him understand what was needed from him. He learned quick. The Celtics started out 14-4 with Sharman healthy, easily the best team in the league and on pace for 56 wins--finishing 17-8 before Russell joined, going 3-4 without Sharman. They allowed 99 points a game during this stretch and held the #1 offense Philadelphia Warriors to 83 and 78 points in the middle of a 10-game win streak. Auerbach seemed to be using his press defense more than ever with Heinsohn added to the roster, allowing for small ball line-ups where the guards could harass players up the court without a loss in rebounding.

The biggest additions to the team at the beginning of the season were Heinsohn, Andy Phillip, and Lou Tsioropoulos. Now obviously the sudden shift in the Celtics from treadmill to championship contender is not entirely due to Heinsohn. Andy Phillip was a good all-around ball player, and no doubt improved their defense with his stealing and deflection ability (he had a 6 steal game early in the season). Tsioropoulos was also getting quite a bit of praise for how hard he played.

But Heinsohn was the key piece. A player that solved their rebounding issues, a threat on offense with his shooting, driving, and passing ability; a player with high energy that could switch, play for steals and get deflections off-ball--while having the athleticism to contest a variety of shots. He played a pivotal role in turning a previously middling team into a powehouse, that had other teams actively complaining about the talent level of their roster early in the season (without Russell and Ramsey too). By the time the Finals rolled around, Heinsohn was leading the Celtics in scoring as a rookie against the Pettit led Hawks, closing game 7 with a 37 point game on 17-33 shooting, one of the greatest rookie performances in NBA history. All while helping to keep Pettit below his average efficiency. Heinsohn could score when his team needed him most--always playing steady, but exploding for a boost when the team needed him during a critical moment.

Biggest strengths are his defense, rebounding, and gravity. Defensively, Heinsohn was among the very best of the Celtics. In Auerbach's book Basketball for The Player, The Fan, And The Coach--he lists Heinsohn as one of the great defensive cornermen, and for good reason. On top of being a relentless rebounder, he actively played for the ball and used his hands to poke, strip, and deflect. He could switch 1 through 4 with ease and play tough man-to-man defense, often contesting shots and getting blocks on players like Jerry West.

He didn't have all-time efficiency, but his high volume and tough shot making allowed for floor spacing that was beneficial to his teammates. Heinsohn shot a significant amount of jump shots that were difficult and this hurt his efficiency, with that being said he was also a threat to the defense as he could score when left open. With Russell on the Celtics, there was less spacing and more emphasis on making jump shots. The bulk of the jump shooting was often left to guys like Cousy, Sharman, Havlicek, Heinsohn, and Sam Jones. Sharman and Jones were plus with their shooting ability, but the rest of the main offensive options suffered efficiency wise due to being the only ones that could take and make these difficult shots. With less spacing, it was harder to drive to the hoop as well as get to the line. Heinsohn could score when needed, having multiple playoff runs that were significant to their championships, and arguably could have won 2 Finals MVPs. Overall, I value his ability to be a threat on top of the defense he brings--he could even set up his teammates with good passes.

G6 '63 NBA Finals Heinsohn steal on Jerry West in a 2-point game with 2 minutes remaining
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Heinsohn Defensive Sequence
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Steal on Wilt Chamberlain
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Strips on Rudy LaRusso and Guy Rodgers
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Blocks on Jerry West
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Passes in Game 2 '57 Finals
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2. Frank Ramsey
Led the league in WS/48 during the regular season ('58) and playoffs ('57, '59) on ridiculous shooting percentages (+10 relTS% on 17.5 FGA in '59 playoffs, are you kidding me?) As the 6th man, he didn't have the highest volume, but he was still incredibly efficient whether he was in a smaller role or needed to take more shots come playoff time. Defensively, Ramsey was fantastic--lightning quick, playing passing lanes, deflecting and swiping at the ball, and staying with his man off-ball. In the G6 '63 Finals footage, Ramsey has 2 steals and multiple deflections, all while giving up zero baskets man to man. I think his clutch play, efficient scoring, and defensive ability all more than make up for his lack of volume. Definitely one of the greatest 6th men of all-time.

3. Jimmy Butler
Strong two-way impact, low turnover percentage with high assists, advanced and plus/minus stats are all good across the board. Had one of the greatest NBA Finals of all-time statistically last season. One of only 3 players to record a 40+ point triple double in the NBA Finals. Along with his high free throw rate, Butler has a good mix of volume, passing, and defense that I think a lot of other players don't have.

Walton > Webber > DeBusschere > Lowry > Lucas > Johnston > Beaty > King > Dandridge > Penny > Hawkins > Archibald > Dennis Johnson > Aldridge
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#15 » by trex_8063 » Thu May 20, 2021 4:12 am

Thru post #14:

Bernard King - 2 (Clyde Frazier, Odinn21)
Bill Walton - 2 (DCasey91, HeartBreakKid)
Dennis Johnson - 1 (Hal14)
Penny Hardaway - 1 (Dutchball97)
Bob Dandridge - 1 (penbeast0)
Tom Heinsohn - 1 (ZeppelinPage)


About 23 hours left.

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

DCasey91 wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#16 » by DCasey91 » Thu May 20, 2021 4:27 am

prolific passer wrote:Bill Walton is a mystery. Mostly injured but when he did play he was nearly unstoppable due to his skill set.


I mean not really he’s by far the best player left, won a chip the one and only, a MVP, Finals MVP, 6MOY and would have had a DPOY if they gave those out then. He’s def the odd man out here. Sports rankings in general across the board would have a player like Walton ranked where he’s supposed to be not at 100 imo.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#17 » by prolific passer » Thu May 20, 2021 4:32 am

DCasey91 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:Bill Walton is a mystery. Mostly injured but when he did play he was nearly unstoppable due to his skill set.


I mean not really he’s by far the best player left, won a chip the one and only, a MVP, Finals MVP, 6MOY and would have had a DPOY if they gave those out then. He’s def the odd man out here. Sports rankings in general across the board would have a player like Walton ranked where he’s supposed to be not at 100 imo.

That's true. He was the original big fundamental.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#18 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 20, 2021 4:50 am

DCasey91 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:Bill Walton is a mystery. Mostly injured but when he did play he was nearly unstoppable due to his skill set.


I mean not really he’s by far the best player left, won a chip the one and only, a MVP, Finals MVP, 6MOY and would have had a DPOY if they gave those out then. He’s def the odd man out here. Sports rankings in general across the board would have a player like Walton ranked where he’s supposed to be not at 100 imo.


I'd object to the notion that he's by far the best player left, as Connie Hawkins is still left on the board. Not crazy to believe Walton was better, but it wasn't a blowout.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#19 » by Odinn21 » Thu May 20, 2021 5:37 am

Walton in his 3 prime seasons before going down;
51 games, 1687 mins (33.1 per game) in 1975-76
65 games, 2264 mins (34.8 per game) in 1976-77
58 games, 1929 mins (33.3 per game) in 1977-78

And those minutes numbers happened in a time asking 38-40 min of a superstar was the norm. They might not look too low for this heavy load management era in which you can be in the top 5 with 36 min per game. But those numbers are definitely on the low side for the role he was playing.

Walton never broke the 2500 min mark and 2500 is not a mark that's too high, that's basically 78 games * 32 mins. 2900+ is the usual territory for a superstar.

Not so many teams can afford to ask that little of their centrepiece. Sure, the Blazers had massive winning numbers when Walton played and losing numbers when he didn't. But as it turned in 1978-79 season, the Blazers were already a playoffs team without Walton and they had positive MoV derivatives when their game plan was not revolving around Walton.

---

I'm a peak/prime kind of person. But what's the point of having an all-time great if you can't depend on him night in night out. I certainly do not like that durability is a concern only when it comes to longevity in general. There are instances, such as Walton, that durability can not be taken for granted and has to be accounted for.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#20 » by sansterre » Thu May 20, 2021 12:26 pm

#1. Kyle Lowry - This may seem incongruous, but Kyle Lowry has some pretty strong selling points. His career has actually been quietly impressive. He's got four different 10+ Win Share seasons and over 30k career minutes. He's got four seasons above 4.5 VORP. Did you know that of all active NBA players he's currently 11th in Win Shares and VORP? These are respectably impressive stats. But would you believe that Kyle Lowry's impact metrics are outstanding? He put up a +4.5 AuRPM in 2014, a +4.6 AuRPM in 2015, a +6.5 in 2016 (10th in the league) and a +6.3 in 2017 (6th). His RAPM in 2018 (including playoffs) was 6th in the league (ESPN's RPM has him #1), ESPN's RPM has him 5th in 2019 and it has him 6th in 2020. By Impact metrics, Kyle Lowry's been a Top 10 player in the league for the past five years.

How is this possible? After all, Lowry is a good offensive player but not great. He's pretty consistently in the low 20s for usage and his shooting was only around +3 or +4 in his five-year peak. How good can he be? But he's also a weirdly quality rebounder. Kyle Lowry may be the best rebounding six footer ever (not a huge claim to fame, but still). He has eight different seasons at 7% TRB or higher, while no other six footer has more than 4. You could argue that he's a rebound-chaser, but his impact metrics suggest that isn't the case. He's a strong floor spacer (half his shots are threes and he made them at 38% over the last ten seasons) and a strong passer (passer ratings at 6.5 or higher from Ben Taylor). I won't argue that he has the offensive impact of a Lillard (though he surely has more longevity). But unlike Lillard, Lowry is a strong defender, generally considered an underrated team defender with a knack for drawing charges. And if he's an actual plus on defense (as most metrics consider him) that means he doesn't need to be as good on offense for the same level of impact.

Has he struggled in the playoffs historically? Yes. But no more than Lillard has, and Dame has been getting a fair amount of love in these votes. And recently Lowry has turned it around in the postseason, posting the 4th best RAPTOR-WAR in the '19 playoffs (+6.6 average) and 5th best in the '20 playoffs (+9.3).

Like Porter, like a lot of guys I champion, he's not super-sexy. But he's had a long career and a strong peak. Instead of being an all-offense chucker he's good at everything, and was a key piece in leading the Raptors to their first ever NBA title. Maybe he deserves some love too. :)

#2. Eddie Jones - Massive impact two-way player whose contributions showed up strong no matter what team he was on.

#3. Zelmo Beaty - If you take his ABA numbers at face value (two 15+ Win Share seasons) then he deserves some serious love. If you don't, you should probably look elsewhere.

Kyle Lowry > Eddie Jones > Z.Beaty > A.Kirilenko > M.Cheeks > S.Kemp > Laimbeer > B.Walton > P.George > LaMarcus Aldridge > Webber > A.Iguodala > Schrempf > Lucas > A.Hardaway > D.DeBusschere > J.Butler > M. Johnson > B.King > Dandridge > D.Johnson > C.Hawkins > M.Price > C.Mullin > N.Johnston > K.Irving > Heinsohn > K.Thompson > Archibald
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