Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years?

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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#81 » by Odinn21 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:38 pm

fpliii wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Personally, I'm not happy with this much focus on winning results because it makes overlook one of the top 15 ever in Oscar Robertson.

Just a quick note (will respond to the rest later) - This is just for an initial pass. I just want to do two things (both are hard):

(1) Make sure I include everybody who could win a title as best player
(2) Make sure I exclude everybody who could not win a title as best player

I don't think there is any point in ranking players who can't win titles. Once I've settled on a list, it's a lot easier to rank within the list (it'll probably be <50 players long).

Maybe not the most efficient way to go about this tbh.

But there are players who could go without titles due to the situations they were in. Oscar Robertson is one of them. So is Kevin Garnett.

Oscar Robertson forced Bill Russell's Celtics to a game 7 in 1963 while the 2nd best player on his team was Jack Twyman. There's only Jordan who was clearly a better player than Oscar among guards / primary ball handlers. It's not like Oscar failed to increase his team's championship odds to be excluded because he did not win one as a best player.
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#82 » by coastalmarker99 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:46 pm

Oscar Robertson was once regarded as the greatest all-around player in basketball history.

Here are some quotes that demonstrate his sometimes underrated greatness.

Praise from players, coaches


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (2013)

“LeBron is awesome, MJ was awesome — but I think Oscar Robertson would have kicked them both in the behind,” said Abdul-Jabbar when asked about James and Jordan. “Absolutely. Oscar was awesome. He had brains. […] He had all the skills.”

Red Auerbach

“He Oscar is so great he scares me.”

Jerry Lucas

“He obviously was unbelievable, way ahead of his time. There is no more complete player than Oscar.”

Bill Russell

“Oscar was one of basketball’s great leaders, and his life is one of basketball’s great stories. He was unafraid, unabashed, and unmatched in everything he did. There will never be another like him.”

Rick Barry

“People just don’t have any idea how good Oscar was. The numbers are ridiculous. If you’re getting 30 points and double-figures in rebounds as a point guard and 10 assists a game, that’s sick. He is the greatest athlete in the history of sports in this country who has been overlooked in terms of his greatness.”

Jerry West

“Oscar Robertson was never a rookie. He was the measuring stick for how a player should play. He is a man for the ages.”

John Havlicek

"He Oscar is the best I've seen."

Jerry West

"Oscar Robertson was the greatest player I played against, period."

Magic Johnson

"I never knew how good Oscar was until I tried to do it."

Wayne Embry

“Oscar knew you were open before you knew you were open. [...] He was the greatest player I have ever seen, period.”

Pete Newell

"Oscar Robertson was the most fundamentally flawless player I ever saw."

Bob Boozer

“He played the game like he invented it. Oscar was James Naismith in tennis shoes. He did what he wanted to do.”

John Wooden [1]

"I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."

John Salley (on what Michael Jordan told him)

Interviewer: "Who did Jordan tell you is the greatest player ever?"

Salley: "He would say Oscar Robertson."

Praise from media & notable awards

AP Basketball Player of the Century (1999)

Michael Jordan (49)

Oscar Robertson (44)

Wilt Chamberlain (42)

Bill Russell (41)

Earvin Johnson (36)

Larry Bird (34)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (25)

Elgin Baylor (19)

Jerry West (16)

Julius Erving (12)

Karl Malone (6)

Bob Pettit (4)

Bob Cousy (1)

John Havlicek (1)

Selection Panel of Marv Albert, Chick Hearn, Fuzzy Levane, Harvey Pollack, Bill Russell, and Lenny Wilkens

SLAM Magazine Top 75 NBA Players of All-Time (2003) [4]

Michael Jordan

Wilt Chamberlain

Oscar Robertson

Bill Russell

Magic Johnson

Larry Bird

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Jerry West

Shaquille O'Neal

Julius Erving

11-75. [...]

National Association of Basketball Coaches' Player of the Century [5]

PLAYERS OF THE CENTURY

Larry Bird (Indiana State)
Kareem Abdul Jabbar (UCLA)
Earvin "Magic" Johnson (Michigan State)
Michael Jordan (North Carolina)
Oscar Robertson (Cincinnati)
Bill Russell (San Francisco)
Bill Walton (UCLA)
PLAYER OF THE CENTURY

Oscar Robertson Cincinnati
New York Times (2009) [6]

Oscar Robertson has watched LeBron James for years and thinks so highly of the young star that he recently gave him the nod over Kobe as the N.B.A.’s best player.

But with each successive playoff game against Orlando, Robertson, the greatest all-around player in N.B.A. history, said Cleveland was beginning to resemble Robertson’s Cincinnati Royals. While Robertson played with Jerry Lucas from 1963 to 1969, the Royals had no depth.

“When I played for the Royals, when I look back on it, there’s no way we could have won,” Robertson said Monday in a telephone interview from his home in Cincinnati. “We played the Celtics, and they had three or four superstars playing in their lineup. We had one.”
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#83 » by coastalmarker99 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:52 pm

It should be also be noted that Oscar also made the All-Stars on his Royal's teams better players

Jack Twyman had a 48.8% TS% before Oscar was drafted to the Royals.

51.6% through six seasons with Oscar including 53.0% in the three years immediately after Oscar was drafted

Wayne Embry played five seasons without Oscar. Peaked at a 48% TS%, second best was a 46.4% TS%.

No All-Star selections. In six years with Oscar, he had five All-Star selections and a 50% TS%. Oh speaking of Embry, let's see his opinion of the man.

“Oscar knew you were open before you knew you were open. He was the greatest player I have ever seen, period.”
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#84 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:39 pm

Well this will sound silly now......but 5 years ago I was not a believer in Giannis Antetokounmpo. I thought he was raw, and was always going to be raw, never really breaking thru to become a legit superstar. I knew he'd be good [he was already "good" 5 years ago], I figured he'd even be an occasional All-Star; but I wasn't buying the superstar hype, and was skeptical he'd get much beyond a top 20(ish) guy.

He proved me wrong the very next year. Two years after that he REALLY proved me wrong. And now....
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#85 » by 70sFan » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:44 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Well this will sound silly now......but 5 years ago I was not a believer in Giannis Antetokounmpo. I thought he was raw, and was always going to be raw, never really breaking thru to become a legit superstar. I knew he'd be good [he was already "good" 5 years ago], I figured he'd even be an occasional All-Star; but I wasn't buying the superstar hype, and was skeptical he'd get much beyond a top 20(ish) guy.

He proved me wrong the very next year. Two years after that he REALLY proved me wrong. And now....
:oops:

It's true, I also thought about Giannis as another overhyped tall athlete who wouldn't accomplish much outside of being an all-star. When he started to develop, I still thought he'd peak around Marques Johnson level (which isn't an insult, Marques was strong all-nba player with weak case for MVP in his best years).

He proved me wrong in his first MVP season, but it's not until these playoffs when he truly changed my mind. Once he started to adjust his game to more bigman role, he became such a dominant force. Now he looks like he has potetial for legit top 20 player ever.
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#86 » by cupcakesnake » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:49 pm

Hmmm 5 years, so since 2016? Lebron had just won his most famous championship, the Hampton 5 formed that offseason, Harden/Morey ball were about to be taken to new heights, the Spurs' had faded, Westbrook was about to be named MVP! Seems like a while ago!

- Heroball vs. The Beautiful Game. I always felt like teams should hunt as hard as they could for the most efficient shot possible. To me, Kobe was the antichrist and the 2014 "beautiful game Spurs" were the pinnacle of bball paradise. In years prior, as the Spurs faded from glory, I watched their pass happy attack yield less results and found myself thinking: come on just take the shot! It might be the best you get. Later I watched Marc Gasol suffer from the same snobby shot selection. I came to realize that teams need some amount of Kobe, a guy who can raise the basement of an offense with his ability to hit less desirable shots at a higher clip. You need some hero ball because the beautiful game isn't always attainable, especially not against tough defenses. I also went from being a huge Kobe hater to respectfully acknowledging him as deserving of being a borderline top 10 all-time guy.

- Valuing off-ball better on both ends. I don't think I need to elaborate about this on this board. Essentially just learning how to expand the "eye test" past of player evaluation to stuff that's happening off the ball and learning that that stuff is maybe most of the meat when it comes to elevating team offense and defense. I think 5 years ago I understood it but still treated it like magic because I was still primarily watching the game as a series of matchups. It took me a while to figure out why Avery Bradley had such bad defensive metrics, what was wrong with Andrew Wiggins (probably the worst off-ball player ever in the modern era), why Bob Covington was a great defender despite getting regularly abused by ball handlers. Watching post-2018 Kyle Lowry on both ends in like an instructional video on this subject.

- Passing! This is more of a recent thing, the past 2 years maybe. It's started to feel like so many teams are less than the sum of their parts because there is either a shortage of good passers in the NBA, or some teams aren't valuing it enough. The current Clippers and Celtics, teams with multiple big wings (such a rare advantage) have been pretty ugly to watch and reliant on a lot of coaching brilliance and/or a ridiculous amount of shooting to make their offenses work. Also teams led by dominant scoring guards like Portland, Chicago, Utah. I'm not expecting players to be Steve Nash or Magic Johnson, but the lack of mid-tier passers feels noticeable right now. I'm thinking Joe Ingles types. Players that can grease the wheels a little bit. The Golden State Curry offense looked so much better when it had guys like Iguodala and Livingston instead of non-passers like Wiggins and Oubre (obviously there are bigger factors like Kevin Durant but I still think it's an important factor).
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#87 » by McBubbles » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:19 pm

I think I care less about portability now than I did before. Elgee was my gateway into high level basketball analysis and so I just internalised a lot of what he valued as gospel, but portability often seems to punish players for dominance or things that in reality wouldn't change much. I think portability might actually be a more important for role players than stars.

For example , Shaq has the least versatile scoring arsenal of any ATG center. His inability to hit shots outside of 8ft means he can only be utilised deep in the paint with no exceptions. However, Shaq is a monster in the paint and the most dominant inside finisher of all time. Even if Shaq shot 45% from mid-range, why on earth would I take him off the block in order to make him take a shot that his role players would hit at a better rate than him anyway? The benefit you'd get from taking a center away from the basket would arguably be offset by the downside of taking Shaq away from the basket, and it's not like shooters are hard to find (unless you're the LeBron AD Lakers).

LeBron is another example. Despite the fact he's an ATG scorer, ATG playmaker, and acceptable shooter, he is often contrasted to players like KD or Kawhi as an example of a player that isn't portable on account of his reliance on a clear paint scoring and ball dominance. Thing is though, in this instance KD and Kawhi are more portable than LeBron because they're literally not capable of doing as much. They're vastly inferior playmakers and so are incapable of dominating the ball to the extent they would be considered unportable. So despite the fact LeBron has led GOAT level offences and won 4 championships, he's dinged for his reluctance to be less ball dominant when his ball dominance has been proven time and time again to work.

Magic Johnson v Larry Bird is also another example of the allegedly less portable player getting better results.

The reverse example of this is KG. He has a good mid-range game, is a good ball handler and passer and isn't a high volume scorer, and so can fit in with several other play styles, especially other high volume scorers. Problem is, he's not a volume scorer because relative to other ATG's he's **** at it lol. If he was capable of ATG volume scoring he would have done it, and he would have taken shots from his teammates in the process, thereby making him more ball dominant, less portable but also a better player, only to get dinged by Elgee and the like for being too ball dominant. How does that work? If you can simultaneously be a better player and less portable than portability is irrelevant imo.

Same with Curry. The poster boy for portability got his egalitarian pass heavy offences stifled significantly in 2015, 2016 and 2019. If he was a better on ball playmaker, a play style associated with less portability, he'd have had more resilient offences.

Tangentially related to portability is to the point about players that rely on inside scoring being quoted as "needing spacing to thrive" a very frequent criticism of LeBron (which isn't even entirely true in his case), Giannis, Wade, Westbrook, Shaq, etc. Thing is though, who the **** DOESN'T thrive with spacing? Spacing is ubiquitously beneficial to every player ever. Dinging resilient playoff scorers for "needing spacing" makes no sense.
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#88 » by cupcakesnake » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:21 pm

McBubbles wrote:I think I care less about portability now than I did before. Elgee was my gateway into high level basketball analysis and so I just internalised a lot of what he valued as gospel, but portability often seems to punish players for dominance or things that in reality wouldn't change much. I think portability might actually be a more important for role players than stars.

For example , Shaq has the least versatile scoring arsenal of any ATG center. His inability to hit shots outside of 8ft means he can only be utilised deep in the paint with no exceptions. However, Shaq is a monster in the paint and the most dominant inside finisher of all time. Even if Shaq shot 45% from mid-range, why on earth would I take him off the block in order to make him take a shot that his role players would hit at a better rate than him anyway? The benefit you'd get from taking a center away from the basket would arguably be offset by the downside of taking Shaq away from the basket, and it's not like shooters are hard to find (unless you're the LeBron AD Lakers).

LeBron is another example. Despite the fact he's an ATG scorer, ATG playmaker, and acceptable shooter, he is often contrasted to players like KD or Kawhi as an example of a player that isn't portable on account of his reliance on a clear paint scoring and ball dominance. Thing is though, in this instance KD and Kawhi are more portable than LeBron because they're literally not capable of doing as much. They're vastly inferior playmakers and so are incapable of dominating the ball to the extent they would be considered unportable. So despite the fact LeBron has led GOAT level offences and won 4 championships, he's dinged for his reluctance to be less ball dominant when his ball dominance has been proven time and time again to work.

Magic Johnson v Larry Bird is also another example of the allegedly less portable player getting better results.

The reverse example of this is KG. He has a good mid-range game, is a good ball handler and passer and isn't a high volume scorer, and so can fit in with several other play styles, especially other high volume scorers. Problem is, he's not a volume scorer because relative to other ATG's he's **** at it lol. If he was capable of ATG volume scoring he would have done it, and he would have taken shots from his teammates in the process, thereby making him more ball dominant, less portable but also a better player, only to get dinged by Elgee and the like for being too ball dominant. How does that work? If you can simultaneously be a better player and less portable than portability is irrelevant imo.

Same with Curry. The poster boy for portability got his egalitarian pass heavy offences stifled significantly in 2015, 2016 and 2019. If he was a better on ball playmaker, a play style associated with less portability, he'd have had more resilient offences.

Tangentially related to portability is to the point about players that rely on inside scoring being quoted as "needing spacing to thrive" a very frequent criticism of LeBron (which isn't even entirely true in his case), Giannis, Wade, Westbrook, Shaq, etc. Thing is though, who the **** DOESN'T thrive with spacing? Spacing is ubiquitously beneficial to every player ever. Dinging resilient playoff scorers for "needing spacing" makes no sense.


I don't think too many people care about the portability of the most dominant players of all time. At a level that high, your dominance is essentially portable. On any team, with any players, if one of them is Shaq, him getting deep post position is going to be better than anything else possible, so you really don't care if you're technically losing some spacing. Same with letting Magic handle the ball. Analysing portability, imagining how they'd fit with other good players, is just another function to celebrate special parts of certain players game.

No one is giving KG extra points for being a B+ scorer instead of an A+ scorer. It's a notable weakness in his game and he gets dinged for it all the time. Hard to be a skinny big in a post-up offense. That doesn't mean KG shouldn't be given credit for all the things he's good at, and better at, than other players. I think your treating "portability as a good thing" in a bit of a reductive way. We should criticize KG's lack of high-end scoring, and we should criticize players who struggle without the ball in their hands. We should also celebrate being useful without the ball, and being extremly useful with the ball.

I'm pretty sure ElGee called Shaq pretty portable, due to his proclivity for duck ins functioning as a high-level off-ball game. I think it's perfectly fair to point out that Kobe and MJ might have not brought the best out of each other (even if they might still just win every game lol), or that Larry Bird or KD might be easier to slot in next to a ball-dominant player than Lebron or Magic. Essentially, I don't think it's damning to be less portable when you're the best player in the league.
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#89 » by falcolombardi » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:56 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
McBubbles wrote:I think I care less about portability now than I did before. Elgee was my gateway into high level basketball analysis and so I just internalised a lot of what he valued as gospel, but portability often seems to punish players for dominance or things that in reality wouldn't change much. I think portability might actually be a more important for role players than stars.

For example , Shaq has the least versatile scoring arsenal of any ATG center. His inability to hit shots outside of 8ft means he can only be utilised deep in the paint with no exceptions. However, Shaq is a monster in the paint and the most dominant inside finisher of all time. Even if Shaq shot 45% from mid-range, why on earth would I take him off the block in order to make him take a shot that his role players would hit at a better rate than him anyway? The benefit you'd get from taking a center away from the basket would arguably be offset by the downside of taking Shaq away from the basket, and it's not like shooters are hard to find (unless you're the LeBron AD Lakers).

LeBron is another example. Despite the fact he's an ATG scorer, ATG playmaker, and acceptable shooter, he is often contrasted to players like KD or Kawhi as an example of a player that isn't portable on account of his reliance on a clear paint scoring and ball dominance. Thing is though, in this instance KD and Kawhi are more portable than LeBron because they're literally not capable of doing as much. They're vastly inferior playmakers and so are incapable of dominating the ball to the extent they would be considered unportable. So despite the fact LeBron has led GOAT level offences and won 4 championships, he's dinged for his reluctance to be less ball dominant when his ball dominance has been proven time and time again to work.

Magic Johnson v Larry Bird is also another example of the allegedly less portable player getting better results.

The reverse example of this is KG. He has a good mid-range game, is a good ball handler and passer and isn't a high volume scorer, and so can fit in with several other play styles, especially other high volume scorers. Problem is, he's not a volume scorer because relative to other ATG's he's **** at it lol. If he was capable of ATG volume scoring he would have done it, and he would have taken shots from his teammates in the process, thereby making him more ball dominant, less portable but also a better player, only to get dinged by Elgee and the like for being too ball dominant. How does that work? If you can simultaneously be a better player and less portable than portability is irrelevant imo.

Same with Curry. The poster boy for portability got his egalitarian pass heavy offences stifled significantly in 2015, 2016 and 2019. If he was a better on ball playmaker, a play style associated with less portability, he'd have had more resilient offences.

Tangentially related to portability is to the point about players that rely on inside scoring being quoted as "needing spacing to thrive" a very frequent criticism of LeBron (which isn't even entirely true in his case), Giannis, Wade, Westbrook, Shaq, etc. Thing is though, who the **** DOESN'T thrive with spacing? Spacing is ubiquitously beneficial to every player ever. Dinging resilient playoff scorers for "needing spacing" makes no sense.


I don't think too many people care about the portability of the most dominant players of all time. At a level that high, your dominance is essentially portable. On any team, with any players, if one of them is Shaq, him getting deep post position is going to be better than anything else possible, so you really don't care if you're technically losing some spacing. Same with letting Magic handle the ball. Analysing portability, imagining how they'd fit with other good players, is just another function to celebrate special parts of certain players game.

No one is giving KG extra points for being a B+ scorer instead of an A+ scorer. It's a notable weakness in his game and he gets dinged for it all the time. Hard to be a skinny big in a post-up offense. That doesn't mean KG shouldn't be given credit for all the things he's good at, and better at, than other players. I think your treating "portability as a good thing" in a bit of a reductive way. We should criticize KG's lack of high-end scoring, and we should criticize players who struggle without the ball in their hands. We should also celebrate being useful without the ball, and being extremly useful with the ball.

I'm pretty sure ElGee called Shaq pretty portable, due to his proclivity for duck ins functioning as a high-level off-ball game. I think it's perfectly fair to point out that Kobe and MJ might have not brought the best out of each other (even if they might still just win every game lol), or that Larry Bird or KD might be easier to slot in next to a ball-dominant player than Lebron or Magic. Essentially, I don't think it's damning to be less portable when you're the best player in the league.


i think one of my issues with elgee formula (or at least what i understand his formula to be like) is that it treats portability as an independent variable of sorts

magic or lebron are so good on ball that you wouldnt want to take the ball off their hands in the first place but they still get some penalization for havung the ball in tjeir hands a lot even if their team system is designed around them doing that

i also find it odd how much he focuses ok the idea of training value next to other high level ball dominant players as if being a high usage on ball player was the only way to add value

which is not only a fantasy basketball scenario (if you have to worry about magic taking the ball off another player hands then you are 2017 warriors level of stacked anyway) but also feels like it selfcontradicts the notion of off ball value he argues

if you are telling how valuable defense and off ball play are anf these players are usually cheaper than on ball stars....why not just pair lebron or magic with those instead?
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#90 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:27 pm

Odinn21 wrote:But there are players who could go without titles due to the situations they were in. Oscar Robertson is one of them. So is Kevin Garnett.

Oscar Robertson forced Bill Russell's Celtics to a game 7 in 1963 while the 2nd best player on his team was Jack Twyman. There's only Jordan who was clearly a better player than Oscar among guards / primary ball handlers. It's not like Oscar failed to increase his team's championship odds to be excluded because he did not win one as a best player.

Oh I know and I agree 100%. I guess there are four types of players right:

(1) Guys who can win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, and did
(2) Guys who can win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, but didn't
(3) Guys who can't win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, but won anyway
(4) Guys who can't win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, and didn't

Hard to separate 1 from 2 and 3 from 4 obviously. Both Garnett and Oscar are somewhere between 2 and 3 (though with Garnett I might say 1).
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#91 » by ty 4191 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:50 am

I've completely changed my mind on the extremely well supported/thought out opinion that Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest basketball player ever, and nobody else is remotely close, IMHO.

See below:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFfDF7oCw7sVL7PzEg57E4g
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#92 » by Colbinii » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:09 am

fpliii wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:But there are players who could go without titles due to the situations they were in. Oscar Robertson is one of them. So is Kevin Garnett.

Oscar Robertson forced Bill Russell's Celtics to a game 7 in 1963 while the 2nd best player on his team was Jack Twyman. There's only Jordan who was clearly a better player than Oscar among guards / primary ball handlers. It's not like Oscar failed to increase his team's championship odds to be excluded because he did not win one as a best player.

Oh I know and I agree 100%. I guess there are four types of players right:

(1) Guys who can win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, and did
(2) Guys who can win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, but didn't
(3) Guys who can't win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, but won anyway
(4) Guys who can't win as the clear best player on a non-broken team, and didn't

Hard to separate 1 from 2 and 3 from 4 obviously. Both Garnett and Oscar are somewhere between 2 and 3 (though with Garnett I might say 1).


Depends how you define Broken team.

Garnett was clearly a 2 at worse and I dont consider the 2008 Celtics as a Broken team, so that bumps Garnett to 1.

Oscar was closer to a 3 than a 1, but that is in part due to the era he played in. I think the circumstances of Oscar winning without a Wilt/Russell was extremely low, but that is more-so because of how dominant those two players were in their era.

Durant is a 2 or 4.
Curry is a 1.
Paul is a 2.
Giannis is a 1.
Kawhi is a 1.

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G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
ceiling raiser
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Re: Which players/teams/concepts have you changed your mind on in the past 5 years? 

Post#93 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:32 am

Colbinii wrote:Depends how you define Broken team.

Garnett was clearly a 2 at worse and I dont consider the 2008 Celtics as a Broken team, so that bumps Garnett to 1.

Oscar was closer to a 3 than a 1, but that is in part due to the era he played in. I think the circumstances of Oscar winning without a Wilt/Russell was extremely low, but that is more-so because of how dominant those two players were in their era.

Durant is a 2 or 4.
Curry is a 1.
Paul is a 2.
Giannis is a 1.
Kawhi is a 1.

I don't see this as being a very useful tool.

Broken to me is teams like the 83 Sixers, 86 Celtics, 17-18 Warriors. Some of the 60s Sixers/Celtics/Lakers teams might qualify too. I don't think the Big 3 Celtics or early 2010s Heat/Thunder/Spurs count.

It's not terribly useful and I don't care whether a player is 1 vs 2 or 3 vs 4, but I only really want to rank players who can win as the best player on a non-broken team. So 1 or 2 vs 3 or 4 is important I think.

(To be clear, I have KG and Curry in group 1; I just want to be careful to adjust for my biases since I'm very high on both, even relative to this board.)
Now that's the difference between first and last place.

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