[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Pelicans franchise history.

As New Orleans Pelicans from 2013-14 to today
As New Orleans Hornets from 2007-08 to 2012-13
As New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets from 2005-06 to 2006-07
As New Orleans Hornets from 2002-03 to 2004-05


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Oklahoma City Thunder
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:09 pm

This is quite an interesting one. Especially for a relatively young and struggling (barely 46% winrate) franchise.

They had 2008/2009 CP3, also 2018 AD. I think the top 2 is pretty clear. But after those 2, we have;
2004 Baron Davis
2008 Tyson Chandler
2008 Peja Stojakovic
2009 David West
2018 Jrue Holiday

An interesting lot to think about. I guess I like B-Diddy over the 4 as he had proper production and monster impact, but he missed 15 games which is significantly more than the others.

Their RAPM percentiles as a quick note to couple with their box numbers;
2004 Davis was in top 2%
2008 Chandler was in top 3%
2008 Stojakovic was in top 4%
2009 West was in top 9%
2018 Holiday was in top 2%

Chandler/West frontcourt was just brutal in 2008. I remember Chandler's man defense and West's help defense on Duncan so vividly, it was like a mini 2005 NBA Finals series in a sense. I'm quite high on both due to how I remember them. But this lost needs some thinking to wrinkle out some things.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#3 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:30 pm

1) 2008 Chris Paul - Different player from his Clipper version, much more faster and athletic - a problem in the paint. He didn't have the jumper later CP3 would have but he was more aggressive. I'd say you can do more with him than Davis as your best player, the 2008 Hornets were a contender for sure with having very good talent but not loaded with star power. CP3 played great in the post season, and nearly bumped the 2008 Spurs in 7 games. Arguably should have been MVP.

2) 2018 Anthony Davis - He might have been the 2nd best player behind Lebron, though that's kind of because 2018 was an awkward year to rate players with Durant and Curry teaming up. Does all the things a prototypical big is supposed to do, like Tim Duncan in that sense. His lack of shot creation and more limited passing ability makes me think his ceiling is lower than Paul's. Not sure if his defense is as good this season as it was in 2020 as well.

3) 2018 Jrue Holiday - A very overlooked season because Jrue hadn't been worth talking about prior to this season, and the season after Davis already announced he was leaving and was getting benched. Holiday really only got eyes on him during the playoffs when he locked up Damian Lillard, and in general had an excellent post season raising his scoring and efficiency. He might be the only legitimate man to man lock up guard of the past few years. He's a good floor general who is overlooked due to modest APG, and can play PG and SG equally well.

4)2004 Baron Davis - I love me some Baron Davis and might put him over Jrue (initially I was going to, but decided to scale back on it). Very much a player who is better than his stats show, but I was thinking - perhaps you could say the same with Jrue due to his defense. I'm not positive at all who is better as they both excel at very different parts of the game for guards.

5)2008 Tyson Chandler - I'm not sure why his 2007 version averaged .7 more BPG, perhaps Chandler wasn't biting on fakes as much in 2008? Anyway, I think at the time most people saw David West as the #2 guy, which is fair. Chandler was likely underrated since he had been a disappointment relative to where he was drafted. He wouldn't even get noticed during his 2011 run in Dallas - not until they actually won the ring people were like, oh, this guy is pretty useful. I'd say 2008 is when Chandler first started to understand his role - or perhaps the year before. Anyway, I'd say his defensive impact makes him a bit more useful than West's two way play since West was good but not dominant on either side. Chandler's gravity makes up for some of that too. Peja was a bit past it by 2008, couldn't really score that well and he was lousy on defense from what I remember.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#4 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:58 pm

1. 2008 Paul - One of the best PG peaks. I believe he was injured in 09 playoffs

2. 2018 Davis - Peak with the Pelicans. Has a case for 1st.

3. 2018 Holiday - Had amazing playoffs with 28ppg in the first round while also destroying the Blazers defensively

4. 2008 West - 2nd all star on Pelicans as 20ppg pick and pop guru, solid defender

5. 2008 Chandler - Good defender and high efficiency finisher, I think he peaks with the Knicks but this was close to his Mavs version.

I know Baron is a RAPM favorite but he has a lot of the traits of overrated players (poor shot selection/defense/inconsistent effort) so I'm not sure I really buy it. His RAPM is more good than elite with the Pelicans as well (25th in 2004), his best years in that are with the Warriors.

I'd probably put 2021 Zion 4th
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#5 » by TroubleS0me » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:00 pm

Zion top 5 after this season/playoffs
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#6 » by Djoker » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:57 am

1. 2017-2018 Anthony Davis

Terrific two-way impact and just insane in the playoffs. 30/10 on good efficiency with DPOY level defense is just crazy.

2. 2007-2008 Chris Paul

This was CP3's peak in my opinion. He had the guile and played like a veteran but was at his peak athletically. I considered him for #1 but went with Davis. Paul just seems a bit of a flawed player as I explained in the Clippers' thread due to his small stature and conservative play.

3. 2017-2018 Jrue Holiday

I feel like Holiday is a better player than his career has panned out. Guys who are fringe all-stars on offense and elite on defense aren't dime a dozen. I really like his game.

4. 2007-2008 David West

20/10 big and solid defender.

5. 2007-2008 Tyson Chandler

He didn't quite reach his DPOY level that he played at with the Mavs and Knicks but he was still really good. Defended well, rebounded, knew how to move without the ball and finish at the rim with a high degree of effectiveness.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#7 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:12 am

Djoker wrote:1. 2017-2018 Anthony Davis

Terrific two-way impact and just insane in the playoffs. 30/10 on good efficiency with DPOY level defense is just crazy.

2. 2007-2008 Chris Paul

This was CP3's peak in my opinion. He had the guile and played like a veteran but was at his peak athletically. I considered him for #1 but went with Davis. Paul just seems a bit of a flawed player as I explained in the Clippers' thread due to his small stature and conservative play.

3. 2017-2018 Jrue Holiday

I feel like Holiday is a better player than his career has panned out. Guys who are fringe all-stars on offense and elite on defense aren't dime a dozen. I really like his game.

4. 2007-2008 David West

20/10 big and solid defender.

5. 2007-2008 Tyson Chandler

He didn't quite reach his DPOY level that he played at with the Mavs and Knicks but he was still really good. Defended well, rebounded, knew how to move without the ball and finish at the rim with a high degree of effectiveness.


no offense djoker but why do you always downgrade cp3 stylistically instead of looking at results?

with any other player we would look at the impact and how great he made his team offense and say he was incredible, yet when it comes to players that dont fit a certain style presupposed to be better (more agressive passing, more scoring) we focus on thst instead of the actusl results?

why does it matter if he is small or doesnt have an agressive style if he produced super elite results that is what matters? it seems like being clouded by aesthetical preferences
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#8 » by Djoker » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:13 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Djoker wrote:1. 2017-2018 Anthony Davis

Terrific two-way impact and just insane in the playoffs. 30/10 on good efficiency with DPOY level defense is just crazy.

2. 2007-2008 Chris Paul

This was CP3's peak in my opinion. He had the guile and played like a veteran but was at his peak athletically. I considered him for #1 but went with Davis. Paul just seems a bit of a flawed player as I explained in the Clippers' thread due to his small stature and conservative play.

3. 2017-2018 Jrue Holiday

I feel like Holiday is a better player than his career has panned out. Guys who are fringe all-stars on offense and elite on defense aren't dime a dozen. I really like his game.

4. 2007-2008 David West

20/10 big and solid defender.

5. 2007-2008 Tyson Chandler

He didn't quite reach his DPOY level that he played at with the Mavs and Knicks but he was still really good. Defended well, rebounded, knew how to move without the ball and finish at the rim with a high degree of effectiveness.


no offense djoker but why do you always downgrade cp3 stylistically instead of looking at results?

with any other player we would look at the impact and how great he made his team offense and say he was incredible, yet when it comes to players that dont fit a certain style presupposed to be better (more agressive passing, more scoring) we focus on thst instead of the actusl results?

why does it matter if he is small or doesnt have an agressive style if he produced super elite results that is what matters? it seems like being clouded by aesthetical preferences


What elite results? Paul never made it past the 2nd round as the best player of his team. And even the teams he lost to from 2008 to 2017 weren't that good to begin with.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#9 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:46 am

Djoker wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Djoker wrote:1. 2017-2018 Anthony Davis

Terrific two-way impact and just insane in the playoffs. 30/10 on good efficiency with DPOY level defense is just crazy.

2. 2007-2008 Chris Paul

This was CP3's peak in my opinion. He had the guile and played like a veteran but was at his peak athletically. I considered him for #1 but went with Davis. Paul just seems a bit of a flawed player as I explained in the Clippers' thread due to his small stature and conservative play.

3. 2017-2018 Jrue Holiday

I feel like Holiday is a better player than his career has panned out. Guys who are fringe all-stars on offense and elite on defense aren't dime a dozen. I really like his game.

4. 2007-2008 David West

20/10 big and solid defender.

5. 2007-2008 Tyson Chandler

He didn't quite reach his DPOY level that he played at with the Mavs and Knicks but he was still really good. Defended well, rebounded, knew how to move without the ball and finish at the rim with a high degree of effectiveness.


no offense djoker but why do you always downgrade cp3 stylistically instead of looking at results?

with any other player we would look at the impact and how great he made his team offense and say he was incredible, yet when it comes to players that dont fit a certain style presupposed to be better (more agressive passing, more scoring) we focus on thst instead of the actusl results?

why does it matter if he is small or doesnt have an agressive style if he produced super elite results that is what matters? it seems like being clouded by aesthetical preferences


What elite results? Paul never made it past the 2nd round as the best player of his team. And even the teams he lost to from 2008 to 2017 weren't that good to begin with.


no one on the pelicans has made it past the second round so that is irrelevant for this comparision

and i mean elite results offensively speaking, i dont get the limitations and flaws talk of cp3 led offenses everyone always mentions when his teams are almost always elite offensively, yes he is a 6 footer, that doesnt mean he is not an all time offensive player

has led as many top 1 offenses as lebron and curry (2, in 2014 and 2015, over prime lebron heat and 67 win warriors even)

saying that his offense is limited leading feels more like an assumption than a medium volume scoring small guard CANNOT be as impactful as what the results say, hence my comment about judging style over results
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#10 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:04 pm

1. Chris Paul, 2007/08 - I still firmly believe Chris Paul should've been the MVP this season and in the play-offs he stepped up even more. They beat the Mavs in 5 and then took the defending champion Spurs to 7 with Paul being the best player in the series. Him not winning a title shouldn't be a criticism here, especially since his only competition for the #1 spot was eliminated in the second round as well in 5.

2. Anthony Davis, 2017/18 - The only other MVP level peak for the Pels but I don't see him as all that close to Chris Paul tbh. Much better than anyone else available though.

3. Baron Davis, 2003/04 - I seem to be a bit higher on him than the rest so far but to me there is no question Baron Davis has the third best peak here. He might have not been incredibly efficient but his BPM was 5.2 in the 04 regular season, which is significantly higher than any of the other candidates. In the play-offs he kept up his level of play and arguably even stepped up.

4. Jrue Holiday, 2017/18 - He's a bit unlucky that the Pelicans didn't make the post-season often. He has better regular seasons, which combined with a play-off run like 2018 could have bumped him up to #3 but as it stands I have a hard time doing that. I also briefly contemplated putting David West ahead of Jrue as I believe their performance was very similar with a slight edge to West in these relevant seasons. West wasn't a clear second best player like Jrue was though as Chandler and Peja were at least as important as West in the regular season.

5. David West, 2007/08 - Why I did end up going with West over Chandler and Peja is because of West stepping up in the play-offs, while that can hardly be said for the other two. Maybe for Chandler but I'm just not as convinced by him as most others here seem to be.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:04 pm

1. 2007/08 Chris Paul - his only competition for the first spot is Davis and to be honest, I just don't value his defense enough to pick him over Paul. It's not like Davis played with scrubs back in the 2018, yet team's results were nothing special. Paul was elite offensive anchor who was also strong defensively (though he improved on that end later). He was also spectacular in playoffs with all-time great performance against all-time Spurs defense.

2. 2017/18 Anthony Davis - outstanding season, but he wasn't real MVP candidate and his defense wasn't dominant enough to be first.

3. 2017/18 Jrue Holiday - I am very, very high on Jrue - he's perfect player to play with. Unselfish, efficient floor general who is also shutdown defender and has enough size to bother bigger guys. I always felt he was underrated and he's been showing it now with good Bucks roster.

4. 2007/08 David West - I really like West as a player. He was as tough as anyone, he was unselfish and he could shoot the ball very well (one of the best midrange shooters ever at his position). The only concern I have with him is that he was never very efficient player because of reliance on his midrange shot, but it made him more impactful than his numbers indicate.

5. 2007/08 Tyson Chandler - one of his better seasons, although I'm not very high on his defense I can't deny he was very solid defensive anchor for CP3 led team.

It's strange that top 5 is basically from two seasons (2008 and 2018).
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#12 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:46 pm

1. 2008 Chris Paul
His only competition is 2018 Anthony Davis and Paul's offense+defense combination was definitely stronger for me. Especially in the regular season.

2. 2018 Anthony Davis
Easily the best of the rest.

3. 2018 Jrue Holiday
Good offensive output and impact, great defensive impact. He was such a difference maker.

4. 2008 David West
Scoring wise, he was 1b to Paul's 1a and in terms of scoring repertoire, the Hornets relied on his ability to create his own shots. He was arguably the best at it on that team. His help defense next to Chandler was pretty strong all season long.

5. 2008 Tyson Chandler
This was the prelude to his showing in 2011.

I'd probably have Baron Davis at 4 over West and Chandler without that many number of missed games. But West and Chandler are good enough to force those extra 10 games to matter.
Stojakovic was not as productive as West and Chandler.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#13 » by homecourtloss » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:59 am

1. CP3, 2008. MVP type season
2. AD, 2018. Good impact year, tremendous efficient production
3. Jrue, 2018. Actually ahead of AD in both RPM and RAPM. Was the best player vs. the Blazers in that sweep.
4. Baron Davis, 2004. Two way impact though below his peak impact.
5. Chandler, 2008. Defensive impact player who was efficient on offense and knew his role and excelled in it.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#14 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 10:49 am

A little more than 4 hours left on the clock for this one.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#15 » by LA Bird » Sat Jun 5, 2021 11:15 am

1. 2009 Chris Paul
He had a poor playoffs run but it's a 5 game sample. I don't give seasons like 2020 Mitchell much of a boost for one fluke series so I don't think it would be fair to penalize players too heavily for one bad series either. A large part of Paul's value comes from his strong two way play and the massive -9.8 improvement in defensive on/off gives 09 the advantage over 08.

2. 2018 Anthony Davis
Not much of a creator for his teammates so his offense is not near as valuable as top tier offensive anchors like Paul. 2019 would have been Davis's peak season if he didn't get shut down by the team after the mid-season trade request.

3. 2004 Baron Davis
4. 2018 Jrue Holiday

+/- numbers are usually Holiday's trump card over other point guards but Baron Davis is a RAPM beast too and his box scores are also better than Holiday's. Missed games from BDiddy narrows the gap but I always thought those Anthony Davis / Jrue Holiday teams were rather underwhelming considering they had a decent big 2 (plus Boogie for a while before he was injured).

5. 2003 PJ Brown
Probably could go with Chandler here but I thought I would give PJ Brown a vote since he hasn't gotten a single mention yet ITT. Highest WS in a season by anyone besides CP3/AD and the 03 team had the 2nd highest SRS in franchise history despite Baron Davis missing almost half the season. Brown led the league in individual box ORtg shooting 52% on mid range jumpers and he was a great defender on a -2 defensive team.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#16 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:00 pm

The Pelicans results;

Code: Select all

1. 8-1-0-0-0 / 87 points / 0.967 share / '08 Chris Paul
2. 1-8-0-0-0 / 66 points / 0.733 share / '18 Anthony Davis
3. 0-0-6-3-0 / 39 points / 0.433 share / '18 Jrue Holiday
4. 0-0-3-2-0 / 21 points / 0.233 share / '04 Baron Davis
5. 0-0-0-4-1 / 13 points / 0.144 share / '08 David West

6. 0-0-0-0-7 /  7 points / 0.078 share / '08 Tyson Chandler
7. 0-0-0-0-1 /  1 points / 0.011 share / '03 P.J. Brown


Results on Google Sheet
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#17 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:00 pm

1. '07-08 Chris Paul - greatest year in NO basketball history
2. '17-18 Anthony Davis - the 2nd superstar talent in franchise history, was only ever a question of whether he'd top CP3
3. '03-04 Baron Davis - as always, he was better than you think he was despite the efficiency concerns
4. '17-18 Jrue Holiday - that playoff performance completely changed his career trajectory
5. '07-08 Tyson Chandler - really came down to Paul's teammates (Chandler, West, Peja), but Chandler here was finding a formula for making consistent impact that's a pretty big deal.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pelicans 

Post#18 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:06 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:1. Chris Paul
2. Anthony Davis
3. Baron Davis
4. Jrue Holiday
5. Tyson Chandler

adding to post

EDIT: Nevermind, sorry I cut it so close.

Added your vote to the count. I'm not going to disregard a vote coming at the last minute. :D
I'd appreciate it you add your season choices and some minor reasoning for each. Cheers.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.

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