[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Pistons franchise history.

As Detroit Pistons from 1957-58 to today
As Fort Wayne Pistons from 1949-50 to 1956-57


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

---

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:10 pm

Such an interesting franchise.

One of the several franchises with 3 or more NBA titles. Yet all of their success came with a very well balanced team. No top heavy structures with obvious superstars.

Also pretty interesting names to consider. There's;
Larry Foust, Bailey Howell, Dave Bing, Bob Lanier, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Grant Hill, Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#3 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:16 pm

George Yardley is worth a consideration as well. Might be their best scorer of all time.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#4 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:47 pm

1) 2005 Rasheed Wallace - I actually realized that Rasheed may have been the best Piston of his era during the top 100. Prior it was always Ben Wallace to me with Billups as a close 2nd. I think the reason why I and many people assume this is because Rasheed simply doesn't have great boxscore stats - he locks the blocks and rebounds to get the credit as the defensive anchor, and his scoring is nowhere near high enough for any type of offensive credit. When it comes down to it though, not only is Rasheed conceptually better than Ben (he can score, create his own shot, hit jumpers, not an offensive liability), but impact stats suggest this. I was rather surprised but I just double checked and Rasheed Wallace not only tops Ben Wallace in their championship season, but every season they've been in the league - and they're often not close in rank either. In fact, Rasheed was top ten nearly every season I checked, and top 5 quite a few times. I looked at RAPM from 2002-2007, it seems like to me no matter where you put Rasheed he makes a huge impact. Also, I think it makes sense his scoring went down a bit - prior to that Pistons trade he was still putting up like 18 PPG in Portland, his role simply was different in the Pistons as they were a different team from Portland. I grow much bigger on Rasheed as more time passes by, he really is the perfect example of a player who the boxscore has a hard time capturing how good he is. He likely shot the Pistons from an elite defense to a GOAT level defense. I don't see what makes him much worse than Scottie Pippen, and I think saying Pippen > Thomas wouldn't be a hot take.

2) 1985 Isiah Thomas - It seems like Isiah was more effective in his early days when he was more pass heavy. He had anchored the #1 offense before this in 84, but I don't think it makes sense to say that he was worse in the following year. He had a good playoffs showing in 9 games, and was his most efficient post season run. I'll take him over everyone else because his offensive game is very complete and certainly all-nba caliber. Ideal point guard. I originally had him at #1, but my gut and brain says Rasheed was better if we look away from name recognition.

3) 2003 Ben Wallace - No real reason for this particular version, I'd expect his championship version to get the rub. I still think Ben is an all time great defender, and probably a half a tier above Rodman on that side of the court. Him vs Billups is close, but in most eras I think Ben Wallace might have more additive effects to contending teams. Perhaps in the current NBA his offense might be too crappy though. As for when they played, it seems like the Pistons won because of crippling defense.

4) 2007 Chauncey Billups - Not only did he shoot better as he got older, but I thought his playmaking was much improved.

5) 1990 Dennis Rodman - A DPOY candidate (and the actual winner), and he stayed with in himself on offense as opposed to 1991, and didn't rebound hawk like his later years. This is a bit similar to Ben in that he's such an outlier defensively while all the other Pistons are flawed without being as elite in their "crafts". Someone like Dantley is a bit too one dimensional on offense, I could see guys like Rodman and Wallace making up for the chasm in volume scoring.


Lanier and Yardley (2 time finals player, lead the league in scoring) are a snub for me. Also, Blake Griffin had a very overlooked year in Detroit because no one really cared about Detroit that year - that might have been his best season. My guess is him or Adrian Dantley would the 6th place vote.





EDIT: Decided to put Rasheed above Thomas. Like I've said, I get Scottie Pippen level vibes from Rasheed and that is probably more than enough to be the PEAK Piston. Before I wrote and thought this post out I had Rasheed at #5 lol.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#5 » by Owly » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:05 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:1) 1985 Isiah Thomas - It seems like Isiah was more effective in his early days when he was more pass heavy. He had anchored the #1 offense before this in 84, but I don't think it makes sense to say that he was worse in the following year. He had a good playoffs showing in 9 games, and was his most efficient post season run. I'll take him over everyone else because his offensive game is very complete and certainly all-nba caliber. Ideal point guard.

2) 2005 Rasheed Wallace - I actually realized that Rasheed may have been the best Piston of his era during the top 100. Prior it was always Ben Wallace to me with Billups as a close 2nd. I think the reason why I and many people assume this is because Rasheed simply doesn't have great boxscore stats - he locks the blocks and rebounds to get the credit as the defensive anchor, and his scoring is nowhere near high enough for any type of offensive credit. When it comes down to it though, not only is Rasheed conceptually better than Ben (he can score, create his own shot, hit jumpers, not an offensive liability), but impact stats suggest this. I was rather surprised but I just double checked and Rasheed Wallace not only tops Ben Wallace in their championship season, but every season they've been in the league - and they're often not close in rank either. In fact, Rasheed was top ten nearly every season I checked, and top 5 quite a few times. I looked at RAPM from 2002-2007, it seems like to me no matter where you put Rasheed he makes a huge impact. Also, I think it makes sense his scoring went down a bit - prior to that Pistons trade he was still putting up like 18 PPG in Portland, his role simply was different in the Pistons as they were a different team from Portland. I grow much bigger on Rasheed as more time passes by, he really is the perfect example of a player who the boxscore has a hard time capturing how good he is. He likely shot the Pistons from an elite defense to a GOAT level defense.

3) 2003 Ben Wallace - No real reason for this particular version, I'd expect his championship version to get the rub. I still think Ben is an all time great defender. Him vs Billups is close, but in most eras I think Ben Wallace might have more additive effects to contending teams. Perhaps in the current NBA his offense might be too crappy though. As for when they played, it seems like the Pistons won because of crippling defense.

4) 2007 Chauncey Billups - Not only did he shoot better as he got older, but I thought his playmaking was much improved.

5) 1990 Dennis Rodman - A DPOY candidate (and the actual winner), and he stayed with in himself on offense as opposed to 1991, and didn't rebound hawk like his later years. This is a bit similar to Ben in that he's such an outlier defensively while all the other Pistons are flawed without being as elite in their "crafts". Someone like Dantley is a bit too one dimensional on offense, I could see guys like Rodman and Wallace making up for the chasm in volume scoring.


Lanier and Yardley (2 time finals player, lead the league in scoring) are a snub for me. Also, Blake Griffin had a very overlooked year in Detroit because no one really cared about Detroit that year - that might have been his best season. My guess is him or Adrian Dantley would the 6th place vote.

No Hill mention (but a Griffin one)?

Lanier's anecdotal defensive and statistical best team and individual season (1974) and a rare full health season in his prime (though seasons after underline his impact) and he's across the boxscore and composites adjacent to Jabbar (McAdoo is too, though (a) far less so on BPM and (b) he is regarded as considerably worse than his boxscore defensively when playing center). And fwiw his playoff numbers hold up against the league's best defense. Him off the board is tough for me to get on board with.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#6 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:09 pm

Owly wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:1) 1985 Isiah Thomas - It seems like Isiah was more effective in his early days when he was more pass heavy. He had anchored the #1 offense before this in 84, but I don't think it makes sense to say that he was worse in the following year. He had a good playoffs showing in 9 games, and was his most efficient post season run. I'll take him over everyone else because his offensive game is very complete and certainly all-nba caliber. Ideal point guard.

2) 2005 Rasheed Wallace - I actually realized that Rasheed may have been the best Piston of his era during the top 100. Prior it was always Ben Wallace to me with Billups as a close 2nd. I think the reason why I and many people assume this is because Rasheed simply doesn't have great boxscore stats - he locks the blocks and rebounds to get the credit as the defensive anchor, and his scoring is nowhere near high enough for any type of offensive credit. When it comes down to it though, not only is Rasheed conceptually better than Ben (he can score, create his own shot, hit jumpers, not an offensive liability), but impact stats suggest this. I was rather surprised but I just double checked and Rasheed Wallace not only tops Ben Wallace in their championship season, but every season they've been in the league - and they're often not close in rank either. In fact, Rasheed was top ten nearly every season I checked, and top 5 quite a few times. I looked at RAPM from 2002-2007, it seems like to me no matter where you put Rasheed he makes a huge impact. Also, I think it makes sense his scoring went down a bit - prior to that Pistons trade he was still putting up like 18 PPG in Portland, his role simply was different in the Pistons as they were a different team from Portland. I grow much bigger on Rasheed as more time passes by, he really is the perfect example of a player who the boxscore has a hard time capturing how good he is. He likely shot the Pistons from an elite defense to a GOAT level defense.

3) 2003 Ben Wallace - No real reason for this particular version, I'd expect his championship version to get the rub. I still think Ben is an all time great defender. Him vs Billups is close, but in most eras I think Ben Wallace might have more additive effects to contending teams. Perhaps in the current NBA his offense might be too crappy though. As for when they played, it seems like the Pistons won because of crippling defense.

4) 2007 Chauncey Billups - Not only did he shoot better as he got older, but I thought his playmaking was much improved.

5) 1990 Dennis Rodman - A DPOY candidate (and the actual winner), and he stayed with in himself on offense as opposed to 1991, and didn't rebound hawk like his later years. This is a bit similar to Ben in that he's such an outlier defensively while all the other Pistons are flawed without being as elite in their "crafts". Someone like Dantley is a bit too one dimensional on offense, I could see guys like Rodman and Wallace making up for the chasm in volume scoring.


Lanier and Yardley (2 time finals player, lead the league in scoring) are a snub for me. Also, Blake Griffin had a very overlooked year in Detroit because no one really cared about Detroit that year - that might have been his best season. My guess is him or Adrian Dantley would the 6th place vote.

No Hill mention (but a Griffin one)?

Lanier's anecdotal defensive and statistical best team and individual season (1974) and a rare full health season in his prime (though seasons after underline his impact) and he's across the boxscore and composites adjacent to Jabbar (McAdoo is too, though (a) far less so on BPM and (b) he is regarded as considerably worse than his boxscore defensively when playing center). And fwiw his playoff numbers hold up against the league's best defense. Him off the board is tough for me to get on board with.


Oh, I forgot about Grant Hill.

He would be neck to neck with Rodman for me because I'm not sure how good of a post season scorer Hill is, and a decent chunk of his value comes from that. He would definitely be the 6th man though.

Also, what do you mean by 'but a griffin one'? Griffin is way more likely to be overlooked than Hill! I'm not even sure how I forgot about Grant. :oops:
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#7 » by Owly » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:42 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Owly wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:1) 1985 Isiah Thomas - It seems like Isiah was more effective in his early days when he was more pass heavy. He had anchored the #1 offense before this in 84, but I don't think it makes sense to say that he was worse in the following year. He had a good playoffs showing in 9 games, and was his most efficient post season run. I'll take him over everyone else because his offensive game is very complete and certainly all-nba caliber. Ideal point guard.

2) 2005 Rasheed Wallace - I actually realized that Rasheed may have been the best Piston of his era during the top 100. Prior it was always Ben Wallace to me with Billups as a close 2nd. I think the reason why I and many people assume this is because Rasheed simply doesn't have great boxscore stats - he locks the blocks and rebounds to get the credit as the defensive anchor, and his scoring is nowhere near high enough for any type of offensive credit. When it comes down to it though, not only is Rasheed conceptually better than Ben (he can score, create his own shot, hit jumpers, not an offensive liability), but impact stats suggest this. I was rather surprised but I just double checked and Rasheed Wallace not only tops Ben Wallace in their championship season, but every season they've been in the league - and they're often not close in rank either. In fact, Rasheed was top ten nearly every season I checked, and top 5 quite a few times. I looked at RAPM from 2002-2007, it seems like to me no matter where you put Rasheed he makes a huge impact. Also, I think it makes sense his scoring went down a bit - prior to that Pistons trade he was still putting up like 18 PPG in Portland, his role simply was different in the Pistons as they were a different team from Portland. I grow much bigger on Rasheed as more time passes by, he really is the perfect example of a player who the boxscore has a hard time capturing how good he is. He likely shot the Pistons from an elite defense to a GOAT level defense.

3) 2003 Ben Wallace - No real reason for this particular version, I'd expect his championship version to get the rub. I still think Ben is an all time great defender. Him vs Billups is close, but in most eras I think Ben Wallace might have more additive effects to contending teams. Perhaps in the current NBA his offense might be too crappy though. As for when they played, it seems like the Pistons won because of crippling defense.

4) 2007 Chauncey Billups - Not only did he shoot better as he got older, but I thought his playmaking was much improved.

5) 1990 Dennis Rodman - A DPOY candidate (and the actual winner), and he stayed with in himself on offense as opposed to 1991, and didn't rebound hawk like his later years. This is a bit similar to Ben in that he's such an outlier defensively while all the other Pistons are flawed without being as elite in their "crafts". Someone like Dantley is a bit too one dimensional on offense, I could see guys like Rodman and Wallace making up for the chasm in volume scoring.


Lanier and Yardley (2 time finals player, lead the league in scoring) are a snub for me. Also, Blake Griffin had a very overlooked year in Detroit because no one really cared about Detroit that year - that might have been his best season. My guess is him or Adrian Dantley would the 6th place vote.

No Hill mention (but a Griffin one)?

Lanier's anecdotal defensive and statistical best team and individual season (1974) and a rare full health season in his prime (though seasons after underline his impact) and he's across the boxscore and composites adjacent to Jabbar (McAdoo is too, though (a) far less so on BPM and (b) he is regarded as considerably worse than his boxscore defensively when playing center). And fwiw his playoff numbers hold up against the league's best defense. Him off the board is tough for me to get on board with.


Oh, I forgot about Grant Hill.

He would be neck to neck with Rodman for me because I'm not sure how good of a post season scorer Hill is, and a decent chunk of his value comes from that. He would definitely be the 6th man though.

Also, what do you mean by 'but a griffin one'? Griffin is way more likely to be overlooked than Hill! I'm not even sure how I forgot about Grant. :oops:

I meant Griffin was close enough to warrant consideration/discussion and seemingly Hill wasn't. Which seemed odd.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#8 » by DNice68 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:35 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Owly wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:1) 1985 Isiah Thomas - It seems like Isiah was more effective in his early days when he was more pass heavy. He had anchored the #1 offense before this in 84, but I don't think it makes sense to say that he was worse in the following year. He had a good playoffs showing in 9 games, and was his most efficient post season run. I'll take him over everyone else because his offensive game is very complete and certainly all-nba caliber. Ideal point guard.

2) 2005 Rasheed Wallace - I actually realized that Rasheed may have been the best Piston of his era during the top 100. Prior it was always Ben Wallace to me with Billups as a close 2nd. I think the reason why I and many people assume this is because Rasheed simply doesn't have great boxscore stats - he locks the blocks and rebounds to get the credit as the defensive anchor, and his scoring is nowhere near high enough for any type of offensive credit. When it comes down to it though, not only is Rasheed conceptually better than Ben (he can score, create his own shot, hit jumpers, not an offensive liability), but impact stats suggest this. I was rather surprised but I just double checked and Rasheed Wallace not only tops Ben Wallace in their championship season, but every season they've been in the league - and they're often not close in rank either. In fact, Rasheed was top ten nearly every season I checked, and top 5 quite a few times. I looked at RAPM from 2002-2007, it seems like to me no matter where you put Rasheed he makes a huge impact. Also, I think it makes sense his scoring went down a bit - prior to that Pistons trade he was still putting up like 18 PPG in Portland, his role simply was different in the Pistons as they were a different team from Portland. I grow much bigger on Rasheed as more time passes by, he really is the perfect example of a player who the boxscore has a hard time capturing how good he is. He likely shot the Pistons from an elite defense to a GOAT level defense.

3) 2003 Ben Wallace - No real reason for this particular version, I'd expect his championship version to get the rub. I still think Ben is an all time great defender. Him vs Billups is close, but in most eras I think Ben Wallace might have more additive effects to contending teams. Perhaps in the current NBA his offense might be too crappy though. As for when they played, it seems like the Pistons won because of crippling defense.

4) 2007 Chauncey Billups - Not only did he shoot better as he got older, but I thought his playmaking was much improved.

5) 1990 Dennis Rodman - A DPOY candidate (and the actual winner), and he stayed with in himself on offense as opposed to 1991, and didn't rebound hawk like his later years. This is a bit similar to Ben in that he's such an outlier defensively while all the other Pistons are flawed without being as elite in their "crafts". Someone like Dantley is a bit too one dimensional on offense, I could see guys like Rodman and Wallace making up for the chasm in volume scoring.


Lanier and Yardley (2 time finals player, lead the league in scoring) are a snub for me. Also, Blake Griffin had a very overlooked year in Detroit because no one really cared about Detroit that year - that might have been his best season. My guess is him or Adrian Dantley would the 6th place vote.

No Hill mention (but a Griffin one)?

Lanier's anecdotal defensive and statistical best team and individual season (1974) and a rare full health season in his prime (though seasons after underline his impact) and he's across the boxscore and composites adjacent to Jabbar (McAdoo is too, though (a) far less so on BPM and (b) he is regarded as considerably worse than his boxscore defensively when playing center). And fwiw his playoff numbers hold up against the league's best defense. Him off the board is tough for me to get on board with.


Oh, I forgot about Grant Hill.

He would be neck to neck with Rodman for me because I'm not sure how good of a post season scorer Hill is, and a decent chunk of his value comes from that. He would definitely be the 6th man though.

Also, what do you mean by 'but a griffin one'? Griffin is way more likely to be overlooked than Hill! I'm not even sure how I forgot about Grant. :oops:

Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#9 » by Narigo » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:40 pm

I know Im not part of the panel. But heres my top 5

1.1974 Bob Lanier
2.2006 Chauncey Billups
3.1985 Isiah Thomas
4.1999 Grant Hill
5.2003 Ben Wallace

HM.1963 Bailey Howell
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BE:
BE:
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#10 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:45 pm

Narigo wrote:I know Im not part of the panel. But heres my top 5

1.1974 Bob Lanier
2.2006 Chauncey Billups
3.1985 Isiah Tomas
4.1999 Grant Hill
5.2003 Ben Wallace

HM.1963 Bailey Howell

There's no set in stone panel. All votes are welcome. I'd appreciate it if you can add your reasons/explanations for your list. Ballots without reasons do not get counted in PC Board projects. Cheers.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#11 » by falcolombardi » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:46 pm

as someone who is not familiar with rodman except in the bulls (and to be honest i didnt usually put much attention on him compared to pippen or jordan when watching bulls games)

how was his game like in the pistons?

i know he played more like a wing than as a interior player, and i have heard he was less rebound focused amd that older rodman sometimes statpadded rebounds to defense detrimento (not idea if true)

dos he have a bigger offensive role?, was his defense better?, was rodman really rebound padding in his bulls years compared to detroit?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#12 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:53 pm

DNice68 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Owly wrote:No Hill mention (but a Griffin one)?

Lanier's anecdotal defensive and statistical best team and individual season (1974) and a rare full health season in his prime (though seasons after underline his impact) and he's across the boxscore and composites adjacent to Jabbar (McAdoo is too, though (a) far less so on BPM and (b) he is regarded as considerably worse than his boxscore defensively when playing center). And fwiw his playoff numbers hold up against the league's best defense. Him off the board is tough for me to get on board with.


Oh, I forgot about Grant Hill.

He would be neck to neck with Rodman for me because I'm not sure how good of a post season scorer Hill is, and a decent chunk of his value comes from that. He would definitely be the 6th man though.

Also, what do you mean by 'but a griffin one'? Griffin is way more likely to be overlooked than Hill! I'm not even sure how I forgot about Grant. :oops:

Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.


Yeah, the more I learn about Hill the less I am big on him.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#13 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 5, 2021 6:49 pm

So I just wanted to shout out that the Pistons were at their apex in the 1940s as the best team in the world that decade.

If this list went back to the Pistons' founding in 1941, I suspect Bobby McDermott would be in my Top 5.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#14 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 5, 2021 6:52 pm

DNice68 wrote:Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.


One thing I'll say about Hill though: I think he's be a great helio today. Give the man proper spacing with weapons to pass to, I think you're talking about a legit poor man's LeBron.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#15 » by Owly » Sat Jun 5, 2021 6:55 pm

DNice68 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Owly wrote:No Hill mention (but a Griffin one)?

Lanier's anecdotal defensive and statistical best team and individual season (1974) and a rare full health season in his prime (though seasons after underline his impact) and he's across the boxscore and composites adjacent to Jabbar (McAdoo is too, though (a) far less so on BPM and (b) he is regarded as considerably worse than his boxscore defensively when playing center). And fwiw his playoff numbers hold up against the league's best defense. Him off the board is tough for me to get on board with.


Oh, I forgot about Grant Hill.

He would be neck to neck with Rodman for me because I'm not sure how good of a post season scorer Hill is, and a decent chunk of his value comes from that. He would definitely be the 6th man though.

Also, what do you mean by 'but a griffin one'? Griffin is way more likely to be overlooked than Hill! I'm not even sure how I forgot about Grant. :oops:

Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.

Doesn't the former (true, especially regarding prime, mean we have to be very tentative regarding conclusions on the latter).

And in fact we have just 3 seasons of single round playoffs in prime (by the 2000 playoffs he was playing hurt and by his own reckoning, iirc, shouldn't have been playing). For this 494 minute sample he puts up a 24.3 PER, .128 WS/48 and 7.7 BPM. The WS/48 rate is a bit low but then it's pulled down by the team getting beaten and it's beaten each time by a team with HCA and typically by a better team ('99 Atlanta have worse SRS but have Smith back for playoffs). Given higher level of mean player performance and the teams (and especially defenses) faced, Hill's numbers seem to hold up okay, no? Moreso given he's on a team where he has to be the unipolar star, hub of all creation and thus an easy focus point for defensive planning.

I would say a heavy weighting of playoffs (regardless of sample) would damage the cause of '97 Hill.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#16 » by SHAQ32 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 7:27 pm

No one's going to mention him so I'll just show him a little love, '01 Jerry Stackhouse.

Say what you want about Jerry Stackhouse and his career, but that season he was pretty good - 2nd in the league in scoring, 35% on 6 attempts from 3 (league team average was 13.7), 5 APG; defense was solid.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#17 » by Owly » Sat Jun 5, 2021 7:46 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:No one's going to mention him so I'll just show him a little love, '01 Jerry Stackhouse.

Say what you want about Jerry Stackhouse and his career, but that season he was pretty good - 2nd in the league in scoring, 35% on 6 attempts from 3 (league team average was 13.7), 5 APG; defense was solid.

He was able to take on an awful lot of usage at circa (very, very slightly above) league average TS%. And he got some assists too.

That said his impact numbers don't stand out (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm), the team offense was bad (granted, not a bunch of talent) and that skillset doesn't scale well to better teams.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#18 » by SHAQ32 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 8:05 pm

Owly wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:No one's going to mention him so I'll just show him a little love, '01 Jerry Stackhouse.

Say what you want about Jerry Stackhouse and his career, but that season he was pretty good - 2nd in the league in scoring, 35% on 6 attempts from 3 (league team average was 13.7), 5 APG; defense was solid.

He was able to take on an awful lot of usage at circa (very, very slightly above) league average TS%. And he got some assists too.

That said his impact numbers don't stand out (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm), the team offense was bad (granted, not a bunch of talent) and that skillset doesn't scale well to better teams.

For some reason, I feel like "not a bunch of [offensive] talent" is an understatement for a starting 5 that mainly consisted of Michael Curry, Ben Wallace, and Chucky Atkins.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#19 » by Owly » Sat Jun 5, 2021 8:30 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:
Owly wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:No one's going to mention him so I'll just show him a little love, '01 Jerry Stackhouse.

Say what you want about Jerry Stackhouse and his career, but that season he was pretty good - 2nd in the league in scoring, 35% on 6 attempts from 3 (league team average was 13.7), 5 APG; defense was solid.

He was able to take on an awful lot of usage at circa (very, very slightly above) league average TS%. And he got some assists too.

That said his impact numbers don't stand out (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm), the team offense was bad (granted, not a bunch of talent) and that skillset doesn't scale well to better teams.

For some reason, I feel like "not a bunch of [offensive] talent" is an understatement for a starting 5 that mainly consisted of Michael Curry, Ben Wallace, and Chucky Atkins.

Sure. But then, unless they're platooning (and minutes for these players vary substantially, suggesting they're not) that should inflate his impact stats (relative to actual holistic goodness) if there are no other shot creators on the roster. And yet it's still pedestrian.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons 

Post#20 » by Jaivl » Sat Jun 5, 2021 9:35 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
DNice68 wrote:Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.


One thing I'll say about Hill though: I think he's be a great helio today. Give the man proper spacing with weapons to pass to, I think you're talking about a legit poor man's LeBron.

He had more than "proper spacing" for his time (Mills, Hunter, Dumars with 16 3pga @ 39% in his peak, plus Allan Houston @ +40% before that), and that's what counts after all.
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