[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Raptors franchise history.

As Toronto Raptors from 1995-96 to today


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#2 » by Jaivl » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:18 pm

1. 2019 Kawhi Leonard
On another team it might've been different, but the 2019 Raptors weren't bothered by his regular season rests. Not as high regular season stats as Carter and kind of an underwhelming win total for such a roster, but he had another gear on the playoffs: better offensively than Vince and clearly better on defense as well (albeit not his DPOY self).

2. 2001 Vince Carter
Great offensive year. Impact metrics rate very highly, managed to spit a very respectable offense with a challenged roster. The better offensive carryjob of 2001 by a margin :D

3. 2018 Kyle Lowry
His 2017 might've been #3 if not for the injury. Just a very solid player overall that was carrying a role a bit too big for him (and a heavy backpack with the initials DDR).

4. 2010 Chris Bosh
I feel Miami Bosh is his best interation and 2010 is the closest to that. Not the rim protector that he'd become in Miami, but the spacing is already there (+46% from the long two). Good offensive #2.

5. 2005 Donyell Marshall
Obviously not sure about it, but I feel he's the best between that bunch of "meh".
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#3 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:33 pm

1. Kawhi Leonard 2019 - Don't expect a lot of argument here.

2. Vince Carter 2001 - Solid playoff performance separates him here.

3. Kyle Lowry 2016 - His 2016 playoff performance has lower lows, but some people overlook it also had some of the best playoff games of his career and at the right times. The Pacers and Heat series which devolved into some of the ugliest rock fights of the modern era were also tougher defensive opponents than the Bucks and Cavs the next year.

4. Chris Bosh 2010 - Very nice offensive season but benefitted statistically from the offensive set up around him with Jay "has been 30th in defense every full season he's coached" Triano and Bargnani as his center which while lol worthy at least gave him good floor spacing.

5. Pascal Siakam 2020 - Brutal playoffs but it's not like playoff Derozan is much better.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#4 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:35 pm

Jaivl wrote:Fifth spot is a work in process (AKA I can't think of anybody worthy). Don't really want to go Antonio Davis or Siakam. Can I go Chuck Hayes for style points?


If you don't like the 2020 Siakam due to his playoffs you could always just vote for 2019 version who was still arguably better than all the non Kawhi/Vince/Lowry/Bosh seasons, and raised his game in the playoffs
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#5 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:35 pm

1)2019 Kawhi Leonard - Best scorer in their history by a large margin I think. At least most playoff resilient. Wasn't playing much defense but his scoring alone is enough to beat the other players in this relatively weak franchise. His defense still popped up in spot situations also.

2)2001 Vince Carter - Incredibly well rounded player. Can do it all, but wasn't as dominant in any of them as much as Kawhi was at scoring (and Kawhi is still a fairly well rounded player, albeit nowhere near as good of a jack of all trades as many other all time greats).

3)2018 Kyle Lowry - One thing I love about Lowry is how efficient he is. His lack of turnovers have always been the most impressive thing about his game to me. He's not an overly ball dominant player, but a very good handler with good shooting. He strikes me as a player who is not a particularity great passer, but IS a great floor general/manager. Defense is there too. He's not dynamic enough for me to rank him above Vince Carter (he doesn't shoot well outside of this season in the post season), but he does all of the "winning" things a PG should do. Due to Lowry's useful skill set and ability to synergize with other teammates, he seems like a more useful player than Bosh who I thought was a more of a empty stats type of guy in Toronto.

4)1998 Doug Christie - The only thing that was lacking from his Toronto days that he got in his Sac days was probably better spot up shooting. He was already a lockdown defender in Toronto and a good playmaker. Very additive skill set, and is dominant at an important aspect of basketball (Defense, particularly man to man perimeter). He generated no lift for the 90s Raptors as he is a roleplayer, but neither has any of the remaining Raptors even the volume scorers. Christie along with McGrady and Camby were examples of trades the Raptors made that shorted lack of long term planning. I'm guessing most people are not familiar with Pre Vinsanity Raptors.

5)2010 Chris Bosh - Chris Bosh was overrated back in the day. He had a fan friendly style with his iso ball from the high post and scored a lot of points and grabbed boards. A lot of it came off as a guy putting up numbers on a bad team to me. I think his role in Miami, while less heroic looking was more useful. Bosh didn't play much defense back in the day, and probably only grabbed the rebounds he did because he was playing with Andrei Bargnani who is a terrible rebounder. Doesn't seem like Bosh could lift his Toronto teams in a weak Eastern Conference, and was best served as a complimentary player to a championship anchor (making him like Lowry, but at this point he didn't have the skills developed for that role). However, I can't really think of anyone in Toronto who was better.



Opinions on the remaining guys

19 Marc Gasol (even though he was a trade deadline guy) was a serious contender to make it. Very impactful player even though he was a bit past it. I'll give Bosh some benefit of the doubt though, not like he was a bum - just was a bit overrated at the time.

Amir Johnson and Charles Oakley were all guys who I thought helped shape the Raptor's culture. Guys who played good defense, hustled, leadership. Antonio Davis was not too bad either.

DeMar DeRozan - One dimensional, and was very mediocre at the one thing he was good at (volume scoring). He could only volume score on league average, so it's not a surprise that in the post season he was well below it. He was worse than the player he was traded for in Danny Green (much less Kawhi, who was the main package). Not a surprise the Raptors won the East after that one. Even 20 year old McGrady may have been better.

Danny Green - Worse version of Doug Christie at that point (and even in his prime).

Pascal Siakham - I expect out of all my snubs, he might be the guy who gets the most votes. Big TS% guy and versatility in his defense, two things that get the Player Comparison board going. I've never really been convinced that he was a real genuine all-star, and was not surprised that even in the championship season his scoring fell off a rock. Not surprised he hasn't been very good since then either. His go to moves are very predictable and limited, he can get away with his natural athletic gifts, but Bosh and Christie are just more technically sound basketball players and it shows - makes sense considering Pascal started playing at 18.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:48 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:...

Amir Johnson and Charles Oakley were all guys who I thought helped shape the Raptor's culture. Guys who played good defense, hustled, leadership. Antonio Davis was not too bad either....


If you are mentioning these guys, you ought to at least give a shout out to the Junkyard Dog 8-)
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#7 » by 70sFan » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:03 pm

What do you think about Amir Johnson case here? He was quite impactful defensively and his offense was never a concern either. Jose Calderon could also get some consideration, he was very consistent player.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#8 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:04 pm

70sFan wrote:What do you think about Amir Johnson case here? He was quite impactful defensively and his offense was never a concern either. Jose Calderon could also get some consideration, he was very consistent player.

I think Amir Johnson is a legit contender.



Jose? No, not really. I used to like him a lot but he's pretty weak (literally).
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:06 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
70sFan wrote:What do you think about Amir Johnson case here? He was quite impactful defensively and his offense was never a concern either. Jose Calderon could also get some consideration, he was very consistent player.

I think Amir Johnson is a legit contender.



Jose? No, not really.

I thought so, for whatever reason I always liked Calderon though :)
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#10 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:21 pm

One guy I've not seen mentioned amongst the choices for the #5 spot is 1999-00 Tracy McGrady - his last year in Toronto. There's probably nothing clearly separating him from the other guys mentioned for that spot, but he was a solid two-way player. He came off the bench for more than half the season, but was a made a full time starter in the backend, and his numbers as a starter, based on a quick scan, are probably closer to his PER 36 numbers, which are 17.7 points, 7.3 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 2.2 blocks, and 1.3 steals. His TS was 51%, but in relative terms that's less than 2% below the league average for 1999-00(it would be 6.2% below the 2020-21 average).

His VORP was 3.4, which is, by a very narrow margin, higher than any that DeRozan has ever posted. His WS/48 is .129, as compared to 2020 Siakam's .123.

Like I said, he is obviously not by any stretch clearly separated from any of the other names being spoken about, but I thought he was worth a mention.

This is of course colored by the knowledge of what he would become the very next season when he didn't have share the ball with Carter anymore.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#11 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:41 pm

1. Kawhi Leonard, 2018/19 - In terms of the regular season I don't think the difference between Kawhi and Carter is all that big but while Carter had a good play-off run, Kawhi had an all-time great post-season. Kawhi being a 2-way player only helps to solidify his advantage.

2. Vince Carter, 2000/01 - I rate this season pretty highly and I think he's a pretty clear #2 for this list. Carter and Kawhi are the only real superstar players the Raptors have had.

3. Kyle Lowry, 2017/18 - After the chaos of the Pistons it's nice to have a clear top 3 here. I don't see a strong case for him over Kawhi or Carter but I also think there is a pretty significant drop off in quality after Lowry. His 2016 and 2017 regular seasons were slightly better than his 2018 regular season but I think the difference in the play-offs in favor of 2018 is more substantial. In the 2018 play-offs Lowry had career highs in TS%, PER, WS/48 and BPM. His 5.8 BPM in the 2018 play-offs compared to 2.5 in 2016 and 2.2 in 2017 is too large of a difference for me not to go for 2018.

4. Chris Bosh, 2007/08 - The 2008 regular season vs the 2010 regular season is an interesting discussion and I get that the other voters have gone for his 2010 season because that was him at his best offensively. I think it's pretty much a toss up though and I'm slightly leaning towards the 2008 regular season here. Him making the post-season in 2008 and playing at the same level in the play-offs as he did in the regular season does give this season the clear edge to me. It was a 5 game first round loss to the Magic so the sample size is small but similarly to Lowry in 2018, this was statistically Bosh' best post-season.

5. Pascal Siakam, 2018/19 - I was initially considering Jose Calderon as his boxscore stats look indistinguishable from Bosh in the 08 regular season but him only being a fringe starter who played the 6th most minutes on the team in the play-offs made me more apprehensive of him. Jonas Valanciunas has a similar case in 2018 as a high impact player on limited minutes. His numbers are a bit less impressive but he was a clear starter and played the 4th most minutes for his team in the play-offs. I also considered DeRozan as he is someone who I'd definitely put on this list if I had to do it off the top of my head but he crumbled in the play-offs. When thinking of those mid 10s Raptor teams I think of it as a Lowry/DeRozan tandem but it is becoming more clear that Lowry was the clear best player on those teams. I ended up going with Siakam. I'm not overly confident in this pick but he has a solid regular season, while I think he has a decent case as the second best player for the championship Raptors behind Kawhi and marginally ahead of Lowry.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#12 » by Owly » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:49 pm

70sFan wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
70sFan wrote:What do you think about Amir Johnson case here? He was quite impactful defensively and his offense was never a concern either. Jose Calderon could also get some consideration, he was very consistent player.

I think Amir Johnson is a legit contender.



Jose? No, not really.

I thought so, for whatever reason I always liked Calderon though :)

Not sure I'd vote for him but as low (below average) usage point guards (that aren't John Stockton seasons) go 20.5 PER, .197 WS/48. 4.5 BPM is pretty solid production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#13 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:56 pm

70sFan wrote:What do you think about Amir Johnson case here? He was quite impactful defensively and his offense was never a concern either. Jose Calderon could also get some consideration, he was very consistent player.


I like Amir but he's barely better than 2018 Siakam let alone he next two years. It's also easier to be a good +/- big when you're being replaced by Bargnani at a lot of the time.

Calderon is arguable top 5 offensively. However he was worst defensive PG in the league.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#14 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:58 pm

I thought the narrative that Pascal was the 2nd best player on a championship team died out a while ago. He is not better than Kyle Lowry.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#15 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 6:13 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I thought the narrative that Pascal was the 2nd best player on a championship team died out a while ago. He is not better than Kyle Lowry.


Your opinion mate, not mine. Saying something is a narrative and then just saying the opposite without any reason as to why is a bad look.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#16 » by SHAQ32 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 11:41 pm

'96 Damon Stoudamire might make my #5 behind Kawhi, Vince, Bosh, and Lowry. 19 points, 9 assists, 40% from 3 not only as a rookie but for a rookie NBA franchise. That's not something you really see.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#17 » by homecourtloss » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:51 am

1. Kawhi, 2019. Great playoff run even if regular season was actually lesser than some on these lists
2. Vince, 2001. Great impact metrics to go along with production.
3. Lowry, 2018. Once again great impact metrics. First three games vs. Cavs: 22/8/3 on 80% TS. Not his fault they got swept. 2016 Lowry was also worth looking at.
4. Bosh, 2008. Two way impact
5. Siakam, 2019. Hasn’t turned out the way Raps thought he would but he was very, very good in the 2019 playoffs
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#18 » by durantbird » Tue Jun 8, 2021 11:24 am

No one picks DeMar DeRozan?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#19 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jun 8, 2021 11:27 am

durantbird wrote:No one picks DeMar DeRozan?

What does he really give a team back then?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Raptors 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Tue Jun 8, 2021 11:51 am

1. 2018/19 Kawhi Leonard - easy choice to me, nobody comes close.

2. 2000/01 Vince Carter - I'm not very high on Carter, but he peaked very high and it's another clear choice to me.

3. 2017/18 Kyle Lowry - I don't think anyone else comes close to him, he was really good in his prime, even if slightly overrated after the title for a brief moment.

4. 2007/08 Chris Bosh - I'm not a fan of Bosh being treated like a franchise player, but it wasn't his fault. Very good player at his best, solid on both ends of the floor.

5. 2013/14 Amir Johnson - I know that I shouldn't think that way, but I just can't give Siakam much credit for his 2019 playoffs when I know what kind of player he truly is. Siakam isn't great defender and his offense is extremely limited, to the point when his volume scoring could be problematic in playoffs. I don't want to praise low efficiency scorer without all-around game for winning the title when he wasn't probably even Toronto's 3rd best player. Amir Johnson gives you fantastic defense and very solid offensive output in limited role, I think I prefer that over everything Siakam can give me.

Very underwhelming franchise, especially if you forget about this one Kawhi season. I'd give 2019 Gasol the last spot with full RS in Toronto, but I wouldn't feel well with crediting him for 26 RS games for them.

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