Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers

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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#21 » by Owly » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:18 pm

This is all a long way from the players in question.

I'd argue:
That Robinson's franchise turnaround was a more dramatic (though other turnover at the same time).
You'd expect it to be given Robinson was older.
Robinson does take too much heat for what might have been Olajuwon just happening to make tough shots (Robinson single covering him).
O'Neal's (rare?) classiness, deferral to Hakeem may have shaped perceptions of that matchup too. Shaq not only got his numbers but the games were competitive with him on the court (Colts18 had them without Shaq as "[Orlando] -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)" or more than half Orlando's deficit in his short off time (and fwiw, 2 game "wins" in his on court time).
This is all tangential and indirect with to measuring the players' goodness.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#22 » by dygaction » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:19 pm

G35 wrote:
dygaction wrote:
migya wrote:

Check the facts. Robinson had the Spurs contending every year until Duncan got there.


Meh, Shaq won 4 playoff series in 4 years in Orlando with one trip to the Finals.
DRob won 5 playoff series in 8 years, no Finals.



So who did better vs Hakeem...Shaq or DRob in 1995?

That series between Hakeem and Drob was a legacy changing series for both DRob and Hakeem. DRob was the reigning MVP and he led the Spurs to 62 wins and the best record in the league...more wins than Orlando.

The Spurs and Rockets meet in the conference finals and Hakeem puts on a display of offensive wizardry and footwork that admittedly frustrated Robinson.

The Rockets won that series 4-2.

Here are the scores of that series:
G1 - Rockets win 94-93 (Rockets +1)
G2 - Rockets win 106-96 (Rockets +10)
G3 - Spurs win 107-102 (Spurs +5)
G4 - Spurs win 103-81 (Spurs +22)
G5 - Rockets win 111-90 (Rockets +21)
G6 - Rockets win 100-95 (Rockets +5)

Over this six game series, the Rockets are +10...that is nothing. This was very contested series, that could have went either, especially when you consider Rodman was a negative influence on the Spurs.

Then you look at the next series when the Rockets faced the Magic, Hakeem vs Shaq. The Rockets swept the Magic 4-0...Shaq could not even get them to win one game.

Here is the series breakdown:
G1 - Rockets win 120-118 (Rockets +2)
G2 - Rockets win 117-106 (Rockets +11)
G3 - Rockets win 106-103 (Rockets +3)
G4 - Rockets win 113-101 (Rockets +12)

The Rockets over a four game series are +28.

Shaq may get his numbers but his teams were always getting swept out by players who led better teams. Shaq needs a Kobe/Wade level player, because Shaq cannot win through his sheer dominance and was prone to getting swept out of the playoffs.....


29yr MVP DRob was better than 22 yr old pre prime Shaq. I agree with you, but DRob did not turn Spurs to true contender - Duncan did.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#23 » by FC93 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:33 pm

Are we really trying to argue that a 6 game peak DRob sample and a 4 game pre-prime Shaq sample can tell us anything about them in relation to one another? Or that Shaq "needs" a Kobe/Wade level player to win because he didn't win pre-prime, unlike Robinson literally didn't win a championship until *checks notes* Tim Duncan came along and won the Finals MVP both years?

I think that if you're going to argue that DRob was better than Shaq, and especially that Ewing was better than Shaq, that the burden of proof is on you, since this is, as far as I can tell, a very uncommon opinion on both these boards and certainly among the general public. So a little bit more convincing of an argument than looking at 6 + 4 games of players at vastly different points in their career can tell you. Ben Taylor's analyses of both for his Top 40 (where DRob is 15th and Shaq is 5th) are very good, but I'm open to being convinced that they're wrong. Just, again, not by these minuscule samples and attempts to create narratives.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#24 » by G35 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:55 pm

FC93 wrote:Are we really trying to argue that a 6 game peak DRob sample and a 4 game pre-prime Shaq sample can tell us anything about them in relation to one another? Or that Shaq "needs" a Kobe/Wade level player to win because he didn't win pre-prime, unlike Robinson literally didn't win a championship until *checks notes* Tim Duncan came along and won the Finals MVP both years?

I think that if you're going to argue that DRob was better than Shaq, and especially that Ewing was better than Shaq, that the burden of proof is on you, since this is, as far as I can tell, a very uncommon opinion on both these boards and certainly among the general public. So a little bit more convincing of an argument than looking at 6 + 4 games of players at vastly different points in their career can tell you. Ben Taylor's analyses of both for his Top 40 (where DRob is 15th and Shaq is 5th) are very good, but I'm open to being convinced that they're wrong. Just, again, not by these minuscule samples and attempts to create narratives.



If anyone is trying to create narratives its you....what sample sizes did you present.....
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#25 » by prolific passer » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:55 am

Shaq is the odd man out due to his health and ft shooting but so dominant from 00-02.
Ewing is the odd man out due to him not being as good of a passer as the other 3 were but had a great first 12 years in the league from 85-97 with a super efficient stretch from 88-90.
Hakeem was great from 84-97 with mvp and dpoy type stretch from 93-97.
Drob had a great first 6 years in the league from 90-96 and was a good supporter for Duncan from 98-03.
Ewing, Hakeem, and Drob were super athletic bigs who can cover ground well defensively and could give you at least 2bpg and 1spg in their primes.

Im sure most would say they would take Shaq due to his dominance during the 3peat but you cant ignore Hakeem's all around skill set from 93-97 and what he did to the likes of Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq in that span.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#26 » by migya » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:07 am

dygaction wrote:
G35 wrote:
dygaction wrote:
Meh, Shaq won 4 playoff series in 4 years in Orlando with one trip to the Finals.
DRob won 5 playoff series in 8 years, no Finals.



So who did better vs Hakeem...Shaq or DRob in 1995?

That series between Hakeem and Drob was a legacy changing series for both DRob and Hakeem. DRob was the reigning MVP and he led the Spurs to 62 wins and the best record in the league...more wins than Orlando.

The Spurs and Rockets meet in the conference finals and Hakeem puts on a display of offensive wizardry and footwork that admittedly frustrated Robinson.

The Rockets won that series 4-2.

Here are the scores of that series:
G1 - Rockets win 94-93 (Rockets +1)
G2 - Rockets win 106-96 (Rockets +10)
G3 - Spurs win 107-102 (Spurs +5)
G4 - Spurs win 103-81 (Spurs +22)
G5 - Rockets win 111-90 (Rockets +21)
G6 - Rockets win 100-95 (Rockets +5)

Over this six game series, the Rockets are +10...that is nothing. This was very contested series, that could have went either, especially when you consider Rodman was a negative influence on the Spurs.

Then you look at the next series when the Rockets faced the Magic, Hakeem vs Shaq. The Rockets swept the Magic 4-0...Shaq could not even get them to win one game.

Here is the series breakdown:
G1 - Rockets win 120-118 (Rockets +2)
G2 - Rockets win 117-106 (Rockets +11)
G3 - Rockets win 106-103 (Rockets +3)
G4 - Rockets win 113-101 (Rockets +12)

The Rockets over a four game series are +28.

Shaq may get his numbers but his teams were always getting swept out by players who led better teams. Shaq needs a Kobe/Wade level player, because Shaq cannot win through his sheer dominance and was prone to getting swept out of the playoffs.....


29yr MVP DRob was better than 22 yr old pre prime Shaq. I agree with you, but DRob did not turn Spurs to true contender - Duncan did.



Proper context - 6th year Robinson and 3rd year Shaq. If you didn't know, Robinson missed his first two seasons because of navy commitments and so missed basketball, which works against him. When a player leads the nba in scoring, as Shaq did that season, he is in his prime, or what is prime to you?

In 1998, 25 year old, 7th season Shaq and his much better team with allstars Kobe, Jones and Van Exel, got swept by the low talent Jazz. Quiz question - when did Robinson pre Duncan get swept?
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#27 » by RoyceDa59 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:05 pm

Watching all of them play, Shaq and Hakeem are the top 2 players from this list in that order.

Admiral is 3rd and Ewing is forth.

I could go into why but I think the consensus would come to the same conclusion.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#28 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:25 pm

Hakeem was carried by elite role players and officials/NBA influence. he is the most overrated player in league history
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#29 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:40 am

Prokorov wrote:Hakeem was carried by elite role players and officials/NBA influence. he is the most overrated player in league history

"carried"
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#30 » by homecourtloss » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:22 am

Prokorov wrote:Hakeem was carried by elite role players and officials/NBA influence. he is the most overrated player in league history


What???
OdomFan wrote:I'd rather have Ray Allen on my team [over Curry].


Hal14 wrote:Not saying I put McHale over Duncan, but the argument can be made.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#31 » by migya » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:01 am

homecourtloss wrote:
Prokorov wrote:Hakeem was carried by elite role players and officials/NBA influence. he is the most overrated player in league history


What???



Yea, probably a joke.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#32 » by Statlanta » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:13 am

I'd compare them when they had OK-ish supporting casts and adjust for their ages.
like O'Neal post-Penny, pre-2000's Kobe
Ewing pre-99
D-Rob pre-Duncan
Olajuwon pre-Jordan's retirement.

Also Nick Anderson being an All-Star level talent just to discredit O'Neal is funny.
The 2010's will be known for NBA collusion just as the 2000's were known for MLB doping.
Glorifying either is glorifying anti-competition.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#33 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:54 pm

migya wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:He had a lot of good players to play with. That certainly helps.


It helps but migya said the only reason for Shaq's success was his teammates and that's simply not true. You could replace 2000 Shaq with any center in the history of the NBA and I'm not sure any of them would have the same impact as him, implying peak Ewing would be an upgrade over 2000 Shaq is a pretty insane take to me. It both massively underrates Shaq's defense and overrates Ewing's offense.



What I said was that any of the three Centers would also win championships with the teams Shaq had.


Your first statement was that with any of them in place of Shaq they win the same amount, maybe even more.

A subsequent statement is backing off somewhat from that [arguably hot] take, by saying the result could be the same.


I'll look at it by using corresponding NBA seasons [e.g. 1st year Ewing/Olajuwon/Robinson in place of 1st year Shaq, 2nd year for 2nd year, etc], projecting their career trajectories on to Shaq's circumstance.....

'95
I don't believe '88 Ewing in place of '95 Shaq gets the Magic into the NBA finals, personally. At least very very far from a guarantee. I think '95 Shaq was another level of dominance from '88 Ewing. My guess is they fall to one of the Bulls or Pacers in the EC.

3rd-year DRob also does not achieve the same, because he got injured and missed the playoffs in his 3rd season.
3rd-year Hakeem may achieve the same result, though.


'00
8th year ('93) Ewing in place of peak Shaq does NOT produce a title with a marginally prime [or pre-prime] Kobe. I'm pretty comfortable saying they'd fall to that '00 Blazer team [which is probably on the shortlist of best teams to ever NOT make it to the finals], if not potentially falling in an earlier round to the Jazz or Suns (small chance), as we can't say for certain they'd still have the #1 seed.

8th year Robinson ('97) also does not win a title with the '00 Lakers, as he was injured and missed the entire year.

8th year Hakeem ('92) might win a title with that squad, though I'd hedge to them falling to the Blazers, personally, as Hakeem [non-peak, in particular] is definitely a downgrade from peak Shaq.


'01
9th year Ewing ('94), Robinson ('98), and Hakeem ('93) might achieve the same result in place of Shaq on the '01 Lakers, IF Kobe [and the extended cast] is playing just as well thru the playoffs........though I'm doubtful for Ewing in particular. Part of how Kobe was able to perform so well is because of the gravity of Shaq. Ewing [and perhaps post-injury DRob] doesn't have remotely similar gravity, and that could have a ripple effect.
There were TWO pretty tough teams to get thru in the West to even make it to the weak-sauce EC champion Sixer team: Sacramento and especially the Spurs. I'm not convinced Ewing or DRob get them thru those teams.
'93 Hakeem is the only one I'm somewhat comfortable saying probably gets the same result.


'02
10th-year Ewing ('95) does not get the '02 Lakers past that monster Kings team in the WCF (that's IF they get by the Spurs in the WCSF [which I'm also doubtful about]). So that's another title gone.
Ditto for 10th-year Robinson ('99), imo, though he might have a slightly better chance than '95 Ewing.

Peak Hakeem ('94) might get it done. Though there's no guarantee: Sacramento in particular was a beast, and L.A. barely got past them.


'04
12th-season Ewing ('97) and Robinson ('01) definitely are not enough to get the '04 Lakers past BOTH the Spurs and the TWolves. '96 Hakeem probably isn't enough either.
So that's a finals appearance that doesn't happen with at least two of the three proposed replacement centers.


'06
And I think 14th-season Ewing ('99) or Robinson ('03) in place of '06 Shaq are obviously insufficient for the Heat to get the job done either. Another title gone.
'98 Hakeem??? Maybe....



In summary......
I think with Ewing in place of Shaq, potentially all six finals appearances dissappear. I would say about four of them disappear for sure ('95 and '01 are probably the best shots of success).

Somewhat similar for Robinson; probably '01 and '02 are years with the best chance of similar success.

Hakeem is the one who brings the potential for close/similar success, though personally I see them falling to the Blazers in the WCF in '00, and falling short of the finals in '04 as well, with Hakeem in place of Shaq.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#34 » by Owly » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:11 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
migya wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
It helps but migya said the only reason for Shaq's success was his teammates and that's simply not true. You could replace 2000 Shaq with any center in the history of the NBA and I'm not sure any of them would have the same impact as him, implying peak Ewing would be an upgrade over 2000 Shaq is a pretty insane take to me. It both massively underrates Shaq's defense and overrates Ewing's offense.



What I said was that any of the three Centers would also win championships with the teams Shaq had.


Your first statement was that with any of them in place of Shaq they win the same amount, maybe even more.

A subsequent statement is backing off somewhat from that [arguably hot] take, by saying the result could be the same.


I'll look at it by using corresponding NBA seasons [e.g. 1st year Ewing/Olajuwon/Robinson in place of 1st year Shaq, 2nd year for 2nd year, etc], projecting their career trajectories on to Shaq's circumstance.....

'95
I don't believe '88 Ewing in place of '95 Shaq gets the Magic into the NBA finals, personally. At least very very far from a guarantee. I think '95 Shaq was another level of dominance from '88 Ewing. My guess is they fall to one of the Bulls or Pacers in the EC.

3rd-year DRob also does not achieve the same, because he got injured and missed the playoffs in his 3rd season.
3rd-year Hakeem may achieve the same result, though.


'00
8th year ('93) Ewing in place of peak Shaq does NOT produce a title with a marginally prime [or pre-prime] Kobe. I'm pretty comfortable saying they'd fall to that '00 Blazer team [which is probably on the shortlist of best teams to ever NOT make it to the finals], if not potentially falling in an earlier round to the Jazz or Suns (small chance), as we can't say for certain they'd still have the #1 seed.

8th year Robinson ('97) also does not win a title with the '00 Lakers, as he was injured and missed the entire year.

8th year Hakeem ('92) might win a title with that squad, though I'd hedge to them falling to the Blazers, personally, as Hakeem [non-peak, in particular] is definitely a downgrade from peak Shaq.


'01
9th year Ewing ('94), Robinson ('98), and Hakeem ('93) might achieve the same result in place of Shaq on the '01 Lakers, IF Kobe [and the extended cast] is playing just as well thru the playoffs........though I'm doubtful for Ewing in particular. Part of how Kobe was able to perform so well is because of the gravity of Shaq. Ewing [and perhaps post-injury DRob] doesn't have remotely similar gravity, and that could have a ripple effect.
There were TWO pretty tough teams to get thru in the West to even make it to the weak-sauce EC champion Sixer team: Sacramento and especially the Spurs. I'm not convinced Ewing or DRob get them thru those teams.
'93 Hakeem is the only one I'm somewhat comfortable saying probably gets the same result.


'02
10th-year Ewing ('95) does not get the '02 Lakers past that monster Kings team in the WCF (that's IF they get by the Spurs in the WCSF [which I'm also doubtful about]. So that's another title gone.
Ditto for 10th-year Robinson ('99), imo, though might have a slightly better chance than '95 Ewing.

Peak Hakeem ('94) might get it done. Though there's no guarantee: Sacramento in particular was a beast, which L.A. barely got past.


'04
12th-season Ewing ('97) and Robinson ('01) definitely are not enough to get the '04 Lakers past BOTH the Spurs and the TWolves. '96 Hakeem probably isn't enough either.
So that's a finals appearance that doesn't happen with at least two of the three proposed replacement centers.


'06
And I think 14th-season Ewing ('99) or Robinson ('03) in place of '06 Shaq are obviously insufficient for the Heat to get the job done either. Another title gone.
'98 Hakeem??? Maybe....



In summary......
I think with Ewing in place of Shaq, potentially all six finals appearances dissappear. I would say about four of them disappear for sure ('95 and '01 are probably the best shots of success).

Somewhat similar for Robinson; probably '01 and '02 are years with the best chance of similar success.

Hakeem is the one who brings the potential for close/similar success, though personally I see them falling to the Blazers in the WCF in '00, and falling short of the finals in '04 as well, with Hakeem in place of Shaq.

I would note that at the time of the injury Robinson was projected to be back circa mid 2nd round in '92. If accurate, I think Orlando have vastly superior chance of remaining alive to that point than the Spurs did. How you interpret this (including seeding and homecourt implications of absence, level on return) is of course up to you.
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Re: Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers 

Post#35 » by VDT » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:21 pm

What a weird thread, with some ridiculous arguments.

Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing are pretty close in age and are easier to compare. Olajuwon is clearly the better player here, he won 2 titles (0 for the others) without playing on a more stacked team. And he won his titles by beating and completely outplaying the exact guys you are comparing him with.

Shaq comes a bit later, but trying to argue that Ewing/Robinson were better is hard. They were better team defenders because Shaq was lazy and later got fat but Shaq was still a pretty good post defender because of his size/athleticism. Offensively however they were completely unsuitable to be #1 options and thats what makes the difference. They couldnt have won in 2000 as the sole star of the team. They make better Robins but ultimately having two batmans is usually still better even if you run into problems at some point.

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